Gurus Guru Nanak - A Successfull Entrepreneur

[rajsikh]

first of all i dont mean to hurt anybody's feelings,but because in discussion everyone has right to present his thesis.so i am expressing my point of view
right now i am working on documentry on sikhs of new york(even though i am not very experienced documentry maker)but i know all the technical and other things, how to make documentry from your own home
but because documentry not only want technical know how,it also demand proper research.
so i decided to do little research ,and intresentingly when did i started,first thing i found was one historian CUNNIGHAM'S VIEW ABOUT SIKHISM.
and when i read that view i was stratled,he said Sikhism is a syncretistic religion.i was baffled by this word,i took dictionary to find the meaning of this word.
i still cant beleive what i found in the dictionary,it say syncretistic mean fusion of 2 or more beleifs into one.i was shocked to see this,and honestly this word changed my whole direction to do some research.
so i decided to do my reserch on muslim,christian and jewish religion to find out what cunnigham really mean.
i ordered jesus of nazrath episodes on dvd from netflix
i watched the whole life of jesus and also saw how he started new mission,in the stating part they show jewish religion,because jesus was jewish,in one episode thay show handling of jewish holy book ,after they are done reading book they take bible to a very well maintained place and cover the book in beautiful clothes and then closed the door.it remind me how we respect our shri guru granth sahib,second thing i saw water pool where everyone wash their body part before they enter synagouge,third thing i saw men have full beard and also waring turban on their head,fourth thing i noticed was people in the temple are meditating at different different places in synagouge
i became more curious,i went again to netflix to serch about any movie which would show jewish life in old time,luckily i found one title FIDDLER ON THE ROOF
i ordered that movie too and watched whole movie,in the movie they show life in one village in russia when czar was ruler,they show their day to day life,in the middle of the movie they show marriage ceremony of hero's daughter.
hero show off all the stuff he is giving to daughter .at one time they show all the jewish go to their rabbi to take guidance from their bible ,and ask what bible say about this and that
my point behind telling all these thing is that as everyone know guru nanak travelled to middle east and all over india
he was thinking about starting a new mission too,but he needed the idea as to what message his mission should give to common masses,and to see what a common really want to hear.
by roaming all over and discussing all points with different people he learned all these things
and then he started his sikhism mission,which allured people from both hindu and muslim beleifs,because he got all good things from both religions as well as new ideas from jewish and christian belefs,which indian people were not awared of
so in my view guru nanak dev ji was a very deep thinker and innovative person.

 

[NamHariKaur]

Sat Nam!

It is well known and accepted that Guru Nanak did not create Sikhism out of nothing. Much of what Sikhism is about existed before Guru Nanak. Some of it existed in Hinduism, some in the yoga sutras of Patanjali, and some in other religious paths. My way of saying what he did was that he "cleaned up" a lot of the inequities and meaningless rituals that prevailed at the time. So you are correct to state that Guru Nanak incorporated ideas and or some practices from other religions. Fine.


I have some doubt about the veracity of your statement that you do not wish to offend anyone, because you obviously know that what you are saying - or at least the way in which you are saying it - will be controversial among those who have studied the life of Guru Nanak to any serious degree. Controversy is fine if it is initiated by significant factual findings that run counter to the prevailing view, but you have not substantiated either the special significance of the customs you say that Guru Nanak has borrowed from other religions, nor have you substantiated the factuality of your statements that Guru Nanak sought to find what might appeal to the common man, nor that he travelled in order to learn and assimilate from other religions. The latter is plausible, but you have not substantiated it.
I do not know where you got the idea that Guru Nanak did not know what his message was going to be or that he wanted to find out what the common man wanted to hear. (Underlined and in red font in quoted text from your post below). I have read about Guru Nanak's life in a number of places and never have seen this sort of statement.

While you say that you do not wish to offend anyone, I have to say that I find myself offended by some of what you have written, and also offended that you would make a documentary about something which it appears that you are only just beginning to learn about. This kind of thing always baffles me - people writing books about the wisdom of life when they are 22 years old and have not even discovered their individual identity apart from the values imparted by their families, and people making documentaries because they CAN, not because they know what it is that needs to be communicated!


The biography of Guru Nanak that I have by Dr. Gopal Singh 1967 published in India does not give the impression that Guru Nanak travelled in order to learn what those practicing other religions were doing nor to determine what the common man might want to hear. It is said that he spoke wisely about religion at the age of six - well before he did any travelling. Instead the impression is given that when he travelled he already had his ideas in mind and challenged existing practices, and answered questions that were asked of him with eloquent poetic wisdom - some of which replies have become famous Sikh scriptures with their own names. I am not enough of a scholar to give the names of some of them, (maybe Asa di Var is one of them) though I could look a few of them up if need be. There are others here, such as Gyani who can state some of them immediately.

The idea Guru Nanak had about the common man was that he wanted to make his teachings available to everyone of any education level. To do that he learned the languages of at least some of those places he travelled to and included words from other languages besides Punjabi in his teachings. Then he expressed his teachings in the common vernacular using metaphors that relate to common experiences. Much of what Guru Nanak espoused can be found in more challenging literary form in the Vedic works - the Bhagavad Gita for example. But he put everything into common terms for all to be able to relate to his messages. This is not the same as trying to determine what the common man might like to hear. It is a vastly different thing!!!


I hope your research will go to depths considerably beyond films such as "Fiddler on the Roof." If Guru Nanak included some acts which were customary in Christian and Jewish and other religions that is not nearly as significant as his philosophical contributions - such as the equality of men and women, the accessibility of religion to all people and to abolish the notion of the caste system. I usually do not go on "rants" like this, but on this one it looks like I took your bait. ::

Nam Hari Kaur, Eugene Oregon

first of all i dont mean to hurt anybody's feelings,but because in discussion everyone has right to present his thesis.so i am expressing my point of view
right now i am working on documentry on sikhs of new york(even though i am not very experienced documentry maker)but i know all the technical and other things, how to make documentry from your own home
but because documentry not only want technical know how,it also demand proper research.
so i decided to do little research ,and intresentingly when did i started,first thing i found was one historian CUNNIGHAM'S VIEW ABOUT SIKHISM.
and when i read that view i was stratled,he said Sikhism is a syncretistic religion.i was baffled by this word,i took dictionary to find the meaning of this word.
i still cant beleive what i found in the dictionary,it say syncretistic mean fusion of 2 or more beleifs into one.i was shocked to see this,and honestly this word changed my whole direction to do some research.
so i decided to do my reserch on muslim,christian and jewish religion to find out what cunnigham really mean.
i ordered jesus of nazrath episodes on dvd from netflix
i watched the whole life of jesus and also saw how he started new mission,in the stating part they show jewish religion,because jesus was jewish,in one episode thay show handling of jewish holy book ,after they are done reading book they take bible to a very well maintained place and cover the book in beautiful clothes and then closed the door.it remind me how we respect our shri guru granth sahib,second thing i saw water pool where everyone wash their body part before they enter synagouge,third thing i saw men have full beard and also waring turban on their head,fourth thing i noticed was people in the temple are meditating at different different places in synagouge
i became more curious,i went again to netflix to serch about any movie which would show jewish life in old time,luckily i found one title FIDDLER ON THE ROOF
i ordered that movie too and watched whole movie,in the movie they show life in one village in russia when czar was ruler,they show their day to day life,in the middle of the movie they show marriage ceremony of hero's daughter.
hero show off all the stuff he is giving to daughter .at one time they show all the jewish go to their rabbi to take guidance from their bible ,and ask what bible say about this and that
my point behind telling all these thing is that as everyone know guru nanak travelled to middle east and all over india
he was thinking about starting a new mission too,but he needed the idea as to what message his mission should give to common masses,and to see what a common really want to hear.
by roaming all over and discussing all points with different people he learned all these things
and then he started his sikhism mission,which allured people from both hindu and muslim beleifs,because he got all good things from both religions as well as new ideas from jewish and christian belefs,which indian people were not awared of
so in my view guru nanak dev ji was a very deep thinker and innovative person.

 

[CaramelChocolate]

I see why some may think Sikhism is syncretistic but if you want to say that then all other religions are essentially syncretistic in one way or another. But if you look deep enough into Sikhism you will see it's unique culture, traditions, beliefs etc.

 

[Arvind]

Dear rajsikh,

Nam Hari ji has given a detailed reply. About 'what masses wanted to hear' and 'not sure of His own message', I strongly disagree. I urge you to read more into history, and you will realize immediately, how Guru Nanak Dev ji stood directly against the existing values since his young age... Examples are: Janeyu tilak ritual, Mecca incident, Sidh Gosht, Bhai Lalo incident and so on...
So veer, I strongly urge you to look into history, so that true picture could be portrayed, instead of your own interpretation, which has deep loopholes right now. We appreciate the wonderful seva for the project you intend to do.

Regards.

 

[rajsikh]

naam hari kaur, sorry if i offeneded ur feelings,but i am not agree with u that guru nanak knew about what he want from the childhood,first of all there is no written history about gurunanak,historians dont even know the exact date of guru nanak dev ji's birth.so whatever u have read and listened is just statements of different different people.but one thing everyone agreed to is guru nanak started his oddasis after he got married when he got two children,
after he got married he decided to find the idea of life,if he knew what he wanted to do why he got married and left his family ,after he founded sikhism his own sons did not like him and they started their own movement
now when this thing remind me headlines of yesterday wall street journal,rupert mudroch founder of empire news corporation having family troubles,he might have to find a heir from outside
because his own sons want to find their own destiny
shri guru nanak dev ji did not appointed any of his son to lead the movement
instead he appointed shri guru angad dev ji(bhai lehna ji),because he knew guru angad dev ji is a better choice.
but still it show weak side of guru nanak dev ji,s family life
if he knew everythig from the starting ,he should not have got married

 

[rajsikh]

naam hari kaur ji,other thing i would like to mention here is there was two languages were available that time for religious purpose one sunskrit and second farsi(persian).punjabi did not have script that time,it is guru amardass ji who invented this in khandoor sahib
second thing any intellectual person never make faces as u made in ur reply
it is very childish thing to do ,any kind of discussion involve serious thought and expression not these like u made with help of icons
third thing equality of women was not a issue,instead their protection was issue like what prophet mohammad did ,he married 4 widows as i know because they were suffering from the death of their husbands
i think women in india are much happier even now not because they have equality but because they have their own satus in society and family,they are responsible for well being of family.
because u are from this country,you dont know the reality right now in punjab
more and more sikhs are turning away from sikhism,because some other people like gurunanak founded other religions and got good things out from sikhism and hinduism and got new name for religion
best example is radha swami,they use some part of shri guru granth sahib ji to teach their own ideology,and interestingly peoples are attracted toward them same way hindu and muslim turned toward sikhism

 

[rajsikh]

naam hari kaur ji,i am sorry i had to write agian,because i did not see your profile before
you are associated with satkaryog braham gayani shri harbhajan singh ji yogi
yogi mission attracted so many american people but only when yogi bhajan ji portrayed sikhism to american people in same way they want to see
i mean to say that yogi bhajam ji made kundalini yoga main part of sikhism ,but in reality shri guru nanak dev ji did not talked about this.
same way at that time guru nanak dev ji portrayed sikhism to all the people same way, they want to see

 

[CaramelChocolate]

i mean to say that yogi bhajam ji made kundalini yoga main part of sikhism ,but in reality shri guru nanak dev ji did not talked about this.
same way at that time guru nanak dev ji portrayed sikhism to all the people same way, they want to see

Yoga issue is already being discussed here:
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikhphilosophy/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/5266-3h0-gurudwaras-yoga.html#post12533

 

[NamHariKaur]

Sat Nam -
Ok, we all believe what we want most to believe and look for whatever we can find to prove our cases.
It really does not matter to me that you need to see it the way you do. I really am not the type that takes an interest in trying to persuade others. From the point of view of my own standards I made a mistake in commenting on your project at all. I have no need to try to make others believe what I believe or do what I do. Others can say they are neutral about yoga for example or have no "personal" feeling about it, but argue vehemently against it being a Sikh thing - and I guess that turns them on, and others can make documentaries such as you are doing - I don't care really. I originally thought you might have wanted some feedback, or that the other party might have actually wanted to learn things about yoga - but maybe some of you only really like to argue. Arguments for the most part are just EGO. It is not for me.

I wish only to pursue my own practice and will no longer comment on whatever anyone else wants to say to support perspectives that I disagree with. Have a good time arguing and proving yourselves more right than each other if that helps you to love God. I have no further interest in anything but discussions about spiritual practices and interpretations of Bani.
Bye.

Nam Hari Kaur

 

[NamHariKaur]

If you please:
I beg to differ with your assumption that I am associated with 3HO. I happen to live in a town in which the Gurdwara is run primarily by 3HO but I do not attend their camps, solstices nor Yogi Bhajan Video sessions. I have extremely little social contact with them. I do my practice at their Gurdwara because the Guru is there. If you read all my posts I have already stated some of these things. I have some serious reservations myself about some of what goes on in 3HO.


I have NO interest in arguing about yoga with anyone. Since opinions reign more supreme at SPN than anything else, I will tell you that in my opinion you are really missing out on an extremely powerful channel for deepening your spirituality if you do not do kundalini yoga. Of course this is based on my personal experience - and Livs also (who posted here). If you prefer a cerebral basis for denying yourself the benefits of Kundalini yoga - that is certainly your right.

But I WILL take exception to people making assumptions about me that are incorrect or who misrepresent what I have said. I do not take those sorts of things lightly.

Nam Hari Kaur, Eugene, Oregon

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

If you please:
I beg to differ with your assumption that I am associated with 3HO. I happen to live in a town in which the Gurdwara is run primarily by 3HO but I do not attend their camps, solstices nor Yogi Bhajan Video sessions. I have extremely little social contact with them. I do my practice at their Gurdwara because the Guru is there. If you read all my posts I have already stated some of these things. I have some serious reservations myself about some of what goes on in 3HO.


I have NO interest in arguing about yoga with anyone. Since opinions reign more supreme at SPN than anything else, I will tell you that in my opinion you are really missing out on an extremely powerful channel for deepening your spirituality if you do not do kundalini yoga. Of course this is based on my personal experience - and Livs also (who posted here). If you prefer a cerebral basis for denying yourself the benefits of Kundalini yoga - that is certainly your right.

But I WILL take exception to people making assumptions about me that are incorrect or who misrepresent what I have said. I do not take those sorts of things lightly.

Nam Hari Kaur, Eugene, Oregon

Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji KI Fateh.

I am 100% with Bhen Ji on this. We already have enough "compartmentalisations" as it is..That Sikh this sikh ?? Why creaste more.. We are ALL SIKHS of the SAME WAHEGURU.

IN a place I wont mention, a friend used to live NEXT DOOR to a Gurdwara run by the Ravidassia SIKHS..and he used to travel two hours through traffic snarls to get to a SINGH SABHA GUrdwara (he was Jatt). When I asked him why..He replied ..I wont be seen DEAD in the Ravidassia Gurdwara...what will people think...I am a JATT !!! I told him You are such a fool. I am a "Jatt" too...because I was BORN one..BUT I chose to be a SIKH of GURU JI...and I will go the place where he is nearest. He never spoke to me again Good riddance.

Lets learn what we need...from whoever has the materials...

Jarnail Singh

 

[Legumes]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,

I was scandalised initially when I read the title of this thread; I thought you were going to speak of Guru Nanak as a common businessman; however, you imply that he was successful in creating a new religion;his approach to the masses was not a highly strategised, methodical, tactical thing; he did not say something to gain the approval of people, but to enlighten them. There are many incidents in which what Guru Ji said even upset people; he was stoned in streets for not conforming to their thought processes. He demonstrated how people were bound to meaningless ritual by his subtle sense of humour; the incident in the ganga where pilgrims were tossing water to honour their ancestors; Nanak merely tossed it the opposite way to "water his crops" illustrating how people were avidly following something but were not aware of how empty it was. Guru Sahib did not look for things people wanted to hear; he could have easily claimed he was an avatar of Vishnu like Satya Sai baba does; doing what people want to hear- but unlike so many so called messiahs and gods, Nanak never once claimed to be God or anything of that sort- he never ever implemented an easy solution to gain followers.
Finally, what was the first thing he said when he came out of the Beas?
"There is neither Musalman nor HIndu". Personally I don't think that is exactly what you can call pandering to the audience.

 

[Arvind]

rajsikh ji,

A few basis in your writing, which already are pointed out, I totally disagree with. I consider these as your own understanding of the matters. I request you to stop judgements about other members publicly.

Regards.

 

[devinesanative]

Dear RajSikh

Idea1-------------
|
Idea2-----------------> New Idea
|
Idea3-------------

The Formula of Making Religions Does Exists ,

That's why we have

Radha Soamis
and many Sects , Cults in India

Today , ReligioPreneur is the Most Profitable Booming Industry .........

 

[japjisahib04]

Dear Raj Sikh
Can you please tell me what best you found in Radha soami that it made you to write," best example is radha swami,they use some part of shri guru granth sahib ji to teach their own ideology,and interestingly peoples are attracted toward them same way hindu and muslim turned toward sikhism.
My expereince with them was that they use only pakhandwad.
Regards Sahni Mohinder

 

[rajsikh]

i did not say i am attracted toward radhasowami,i just mention it for example

 

[hpluthera]

Dear Friends
The ideas of getleman that Guru Nanak went to learn or in search is totally wrong . Guru Nanak himself writes that he got the God's message to be given. He advised preachers of all major religions of the time that they have forgotten the real message some were manipulating the real meaning thereof by eclipsing that in the rituals.
But Guru Nanak had the message and then took on four odyssys to spread His message, he did not took journey to other places in search of any lessons but to give some thing.

Your documentary will be more meaning ful if you first understand Guru Nanak's Message. Cunningham was commissioned to interpret the Sikh religion as near to Christianity to win over the Sikhs for using their military skills and man power. just by writing a book on some religion or making a film one does not become a authority but definitely hurt the community at large by placing one's own narrow interpretation of a Great Person or prophet's writings. So be cautioned donot take upon to handle any non fictional themes unless you are thorough and have support of real scholars and religious leaders. Religions are not experimenting topics they are serious way of life for millions and you can just tread on the wrong path without proper understanding. This forum can not be a guideline or checking point seek further assistance.

HP Luthera

first of all i dont mean to hurt anybody's feelings,but because in discussion everyone has right to present his thesis.so i am expressing my point of view
right now i am working on documentry on sikhs of new york(even though i am not very experienced documentry maker)but i know all the technical and other things, how to make documentry from your own home
but because documentry not only want technical know how,it also demand proper research.
so i decided to do little research ,and intresentingly when did i started,first thing i found was one historian CUNNIGHAM'S VIEW ABOUT SIKHISM.
and when i read that view i was stratled,he said Sikhism is a syncretistic religion.i was baffled by this word,i took dictionary to find the meaning of this word.
i still cant beleive what i found in the dictionary,it say syncretistic mean fusion of 2 or more beleifs into one.i was shocked to see this,and honestly this word changed my whole direction to do some research.
so i decided to do my reserch on muslim,christian and jewish religion to find out what cunnigham really mean.
i ordered jesus of nazrath episodes on dvd from netflix
i watched the whole life of jesus and also saw how he started new mission,in the stating part they show jewish religion,because jesus was jewish,in one episode thay show handling of jewish holy book ,after they are done reading book they take bible to a very well maintained place and cover the book in beautiful clothes and then closed the door.it remind me how we respect our shri guru granth sahib,second thing i saw water pool where everyone wash their body part before they enter synagouge,third thing i saw men have full beard and also waring turban on their head,fourth thing i noticed was people in the temple are meditating at different different places in synagouge
i became more curious,i went again to netflix to serch about any movie which would show jewish life in old time,luckily i found one title FIDDLER ON THE ROOF
i ordered that movie too and watched whole movie,in the movie they show life in one village in russia when czar was ruler,they show their day to day life,in the middle of the movie they show marriage ceremony of hero's daughter.
hero show off all the stuff he is giving to daughter .at one time they show all the jewish go to their rabbi to take guidance from their bible ,and ask what bible say about this and that
my point behind telling all these thing is that as everyone know guru nanak travelled to middle east and all over india
he was thinking about starting a new mission too,but he needed the idea as to what message his mission should give to common masses,and to see what a common really want to hear.
by roaming all over and discussing all points with different people he learned all these things
and then he started his sikhism mission,which allured people from both hindu and muslim beleifs,because he got all good things from both religions as well as new ideas from jewish and christian belefs,which indian people were not awared of
so in my view guru nanak dev ji was a very deep thinker and innovative person.

 

[rajsikh]

Mr.luthra thanks for replying,ithas been a long spell some one replied to this article about Guru nanak dev ji
but ur reply is based on two false facts i will correct those now
1.cunnigham was not commisioned to relate sikhism to christianity,as in his own word he said sikhism was derived from bhakti movement of hinduism and sufi branch of islam ,but yet it contain some unique and independent principles
so this refute your claim that he was commisioned to relate sikhism to christianity
2.Sikhs did not have any unique and important fighting and leadership skills,if that was the case why Maharaja Ranjit singh commisioned french army trainers to train his sikh journals
3. third point i would like to mention here Guru Nanak dev ji had two sons but they were not agree with Guru ji,instead they came under yogiism ,

 

[drkhalsa]

Dear rajsikh ji

You seems to read the reply too quickly

H P Luthera Ji never said your first mentioned point

Cunningham was commissioned to interpret the Sikh religion as near to Christianity

So it is near to Christianity he said not related to Christianity

well personally I dont know whether He was commisioned so or not but definately this is a rule that a christian can interpret sikhism in his context which would be near to his own belief that is a limitation of his Psychology and religious beliefs as well A christian cant See any body else beside Jesus as son of god ( the person who knows the message from birth )
So dear it is their limitatiom and the Great Beauty of Sikhism is that its view point is so unlimited and so I have no problem in seeing Jesus as Son of god .


2. taking military training from others does not mean that you dont have any skill of your own while taking all the possible knowledge and skill available has been tradition of sikh gurus this was the reason Why Guru Gobind Singh ji sent thhe sikhs to kashi to learn hindu text and later on which Resulted in various sampradas like Nirmalas
Guru Gobind Singh ji Himself led sikha in many wars While he was in Anand pur Sahib Which included wars with hindu rajas and mughals so have to have their own skills of fighting with them
about leadership if they dont have any leader ship skills then how they become ruler of the area in which they themselves were minority
their leadership skills could be different and british and french army better and moreover Ranjit singh was fighting with British Army at that time and French army were ther ebiggest rival and commisioning then to train your Army would be the most intelligent decision of the time and sas nothing about Sikhs on ability to fight and lead

3. when You mention this point of Dhan Guru Nanak Dev JI what you want to convey but for me it was the best and excellent example of sikh priniciples that you cant be just sikh by just being son of the sikh no matter how knowledegable , respected and great you are Just like Respected Yogi Srichand ji


I would like say in the end is world just appear as you want to see it unless you are very concious and aware and without any prejudice when observing it so we both could be right or wrong at various thing


And you may not have H P luthera Ji Advise of any use but I found it really helpful to me and my future life so I would like to thank Luthera ji for their priceless advise

just by writing a book on some religion or making a film one does not become a authority but definitely hurt the community at large by placing one's own narrow interpretation of a Great Person or prophet's writings. So be cautioned donot take upon to handle any non fictional themes unless you are thorough and have support of real scholars and religious leaders. Religions are not experimenting topics they are serious way of life for millions and you can just tread on the wrong path without proper understanding.

Jatinder Singh

 

[japjisahib04]

Dear Rajsikh Ji
Please note britisher from the very first day of occupation had divide and rule policy. And Cunningham was commissioned with same strategy to interpret the Sikh religion as near to Christianity to win and keep the sikh to their side. Whatever he may have written in order to refute this allegation Britishers plan was only to rule and rob.
Regards Sahni Mohinder