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Randip Singh

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Begum ji and Dr Khalsa ji



And Begum ji I can now state this now as an answer to your question that Our beloved Gurus were Vegetarians. All Ten of them.

I wn't even bother responding to the rest of the diatribe written by you as it is nothing but personal attacks.

Please provide proof that the Guru's were vegetarian. I want eye witness accounts from contemporaries. Not spin or speculative comment.

Randip Singh and KDS – I can tear your Essay into pieces but do not wish to waste my valuable time. It .

This is not my essay I am merely the editor.

You tried and failed earlier miserably to "tear (the) Essay into pieces". If you can do then please do so, I am willing to listen. What I will not do is take your words as gospel....................but beware I will challenge you at every turn.

Remember ....last time you lost the debate you quit this site and now like a man of your word and your resolve you are still writing here. :)
 

Randip Singh

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Those teeth are for eating raw flesh not cooked meat. I suppose there is no where in the Rehat Maryada that states that cannibalism is forbidden:-

http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Kauda_the_cannibal

On the contrary, Guru Nanak's sakhi has another moral phase to it.
Will you then choose wisely whom you want to follow ?
Your animal instincts or your Guru's guidance.
Need I say more ?

Quoting from a site such as Sikiwiki which is backed by the 3HO and GnSSJ (Hari Singh from the GNSSJ is an editor there) tends to have openly Vanshnavite leanings.

I would not put one iota of faith in anything that is written on sikiwiki. When Hari Singh tried to publish content from Sikhiwiki on the real wilkipedia, it was shot to pieces by scholars there and had to be removed in the end. The editor of sikhiwiki then resorted to abuse and spamming wikipedia with friends. This is not the behaviour of a scholar and I for one never trust or use anything written in sikhiwiki. I suggest you do the same.:)
 

spnadmin

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Randip ji

You know, I always was slightly put off by sikhiwiki and could never gather my thoughts together about this. The entries were so often childish, or simplistic, or they glossed over things I had read in other places that put a slightly different slant on the answer. So I concluded sikhiwiki was mostly for children. Now this is based on the fact that I am reading extensively about Sikhism for only 3 years, maybe less -- and even with my limited understanding -- sikhiwiki always bothered me for some reason. But what do I know in reality? So your comments are helpful in this regard.

PLEASE NO ONE TAKE MY COMMENTS AS CRITICISM OF 3HO -- my indebtedness to this branch of Sikhism is huge, and there is no way I can express gratitude for all that I have received from 3HO. There are truly inspired people among them. I am a member of the sikhnet sevadhars and do weekly seva for sikhnet, but am not a 3HO sikh.

My concerns are about sikhiwiki -- In using it as a resource, people should also use other sources to round out their understanding. I think Randip you have clarified a lot for me here.
 

jay

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Brilliant article,

I can now start to consume meat after 33 years of vegetarianism. Only downside is that I feel as if theres no difference between myself and the animals.
 

spnadmin

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Jay ji,

Cannot tell if you are being every so slightly facetious, and speaking tongue-in-cheek -- but that is OK. Because you raise an important issue whether you are serious - or whether you are kidding a little.

I have taken Randip's side consistently. Both Randip ji and I are vegetarians. Neither of us are contemplating eating meat as a result of Randip's research (right Randip?).

What has happened throughout the last months of this thread is actually unfortunate. The conclusion of Randip's research is not -- OK, now we can eat meat. The conclusion is more like this -- when we choose to be vegetarians, we should also understand that this choice is not about Gurmat. Our choice is coming from a more personal place within our soul. One is free to read SGGS as a prescription for how to live, what to eat, when to wake up, how to jap. But one is also free to understand the spiritual message of SGGS as having even more to say about living a life of virtue. Following a path away from arrogance, misuse of power, cruelty to other human beings, oppression of the weak. So much of this was going on in the times of Nanaak and the Gurus in the most unimaginable ways.

And religious authorities of the time did little to guide people in another direction. Guruji is asking whether being a vegetarian is good enough? Is meditation enough? Does self-denial of any kind fix things, reverse the course of hatred?

Guruji is also asking: In our zeal to engage in rituals, to avoid meat, and so forth, can we ignore the suffering around us and do nothing about it? Should we not look in another direction -- toward the One who is without enmity and hatred? Should we not seek to find that divine nature within? Would finding that divine nature motivate us to be better while we are on the earth?

The sants of Sikhism were also activists throughout the history of Sikhi. Their lives teach us to ask-- after sehaj, then what? What are you going to do? We don't really answer by saying, Well first tell me what I should eat.

This has been on my mind for a long time.
 

Randip Singh

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Randip ji

You know, I always was slightly put off by sikhiwiki and could never gather my thoughts together about this. The entries were so often childish, or simplistic, or they glossed over things I had read in other places that put a slightly different slant on the answer. So I concluded sikhiwiki was mostly for children. Now this is based on the fact that I am reading extensively about Sikhism for only 3 years, maybe less -- and even with my limited understanding -- sikhiwiki always bothered me for some reason. But what do I know in reality? So your comments are helpful in this regard.

PLEASE NO ONE TAKE MY COMMENTS AS CRITICISM OF 3HO -- my indebtedness to this branch of Sikhism is huge, and there is no way I can express gratitude for all that I have received from 3HO. There are truly inspired people among them. I am a member of the sikhnet sevadhars and do weekly seva for sikhnet, but am not a 3HO sikh.

My concerns are about sikhiwiki -- In using it as a resource, people should also use other sources to round out their understanding. I think Randip you have clarified a lot for me here.

I think 3HO have done a great job with aspects of Sikhi....Gurmustak Singh Khalsa is great........I am not impressed with Hari Singh from the GnSSJ who is editor there. The man is very biased.
 

Randip Singh

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Jay ji,

Cannot tell if you are being every so slightly facetious, and speaking tongue-in-cheek -- but that is OK. Because you raise an important issue whether you are serious - or whether you are kidding a little.

I have taken Randip's side consistently. Both Randip ji and I are vegetarians. Neither of us are contemplating eating meat as a result of Randip's research (right Randip?).

What has happened throughout the last months of this thread is actually unfortunate. The conclusion of Randip's research is not -- OK, now we can eat meat. The conclusion is more like this -- when we choose to be vegetarians, we should also understand that this choice is not about Gurmat. Our choice is coming from a more personal place within our soul. One is free to read SGGS as a prescription for how to live, what to eat, when to wake up, how to jap. But one is also free to understand the spiritual message of SGGS as having even more to say about living a life of virtue. Following a path away from arrogance, misuse of power, cruelty to other human beings, oppression of the weak. So much of this was going on in the times of Nanaak and the Gurus in the most unimaginable ways.

And religious authorities of the time did little to guide people in another direction. Guruji is asking whether being a vegetarian is good enough? Is meditation enough? Does self-denial of any kind fix things, reverse the course of hatred?

Guruji is also asking: In our zeal to engage in rituals, to avoid meat, and so forth, can we ignore the suffering around us and do nothing about it? Should we not look in another direction -- toward the One who is without enmity and hatred? Should we not seek to find that divine nature within? Would finding that divine nature motivate us to be better while we are on the earth?

The sants of Sikhism were also activists throughout the history of Sikhi. Their lives teach us to ask-- after sehaj, then what? What are you going to do? We don't really answer by saying, Well first tell me what I should eat.

This has been on my mind for a long time.

Pretty much what I think.

I have eaten meat in the past.......I may eat it tommorow......wheteher I do or do not will not be because someone has twisted a few lines of Bani in order to blackmail me or send me on a guilt trip about it. The bullying......the emotional blackmail and the one line quotations are out of hand in Sikhi in general. There is a systematic pattern of Bani distortion taking place whether it be meat eating, sexism, castism etc.

Our Guru's were operating on a far higher spiritual plain than that.......Fools wrangle over this issue (me included) and the posts on this thread confirm that.:whisling:
 

drkhalsa

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Sep 16, 2004
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Originally Posted by jay
Brilliant article,

I can now start to consume meat after 33 years of vegetarianism. Only downside is that I feel as if theres no difference between myself and the animals.

Dear Friend

Welcome to SPN

I sincerely feel that your realisation that you are no different from Animal is really Great by Spirtual point of view .
Believe me this no Sarcasm this feeling of being special on the earth has carried Human being in a direction that he is standing on verge of its own extinction and offcourse we have messed up the nature that a different story

Believe me Once I happen to interact with an Enligtened soul and he said the day you realise that you are no different from the animals your spirtual progress will start till then you just pretend to be human .

One more thing that just came to my mind . I like watching Discovery and national geo in my free time and I believe that the joy and peace that i get watching animals having a nice time in thier habitat is unmatchable . So I think if you have realised this point that we are no differnt from Animal than its just gods grace which I have yet to recieve as I still pretend to be Human



Dear Aad ji

I really like your responses above , thy were very original ( havent read thenm before anywhere)
And I agree that how our mind mess up things and make us believe that by doing particular actions we are going to please the God

thanks for your posts
 

kds1980

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One more thing that just came to my mind . I like watching Discovery and national geo in my free time and I believe that the joy and peace that i get watching animals having a nice time in thier habitat is unmatchable . So I think if you have realised this point that we are no differnt from Animal than its just gods grace which I have yet to recieve as I still pretend to be Human

Good to know that there is another wildlife watcher apart from me.At one point of time i was crazy about animals.
 

Astroboy

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In hukumnamas collected by Dr. Ganda Singh jee and published in his book "hukumnamas" each one of Satguru Hargobind Sahib's hukumnamas state "guru guru japna janam savar sangat dee kamnaa guru pooree karraygaa. Sangatee da ruzgaar hog, ik daasee rahinaa. Maas muchee day naray nahee avanaa." Please examine the last line. Clearly it says not to even go near meat or fish. This can't be just a hoax because all hukumnamas collected issued from Satguru jee bear this order.
 

spnadmin

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DrK -- Thank you!

And, kds ji -- Animals are wonderful.

It is hard to accept that Nihangs eat the goats they raise. It is hard to contemplate the mass slaughter of animals for human consumption. It is hard to contemplate the death of the rain forests and grasslands where magnificent creatures once had their abode.

These are my feelings and emotions. Only my feelings and emotions. Only my choice. Not my seva.
 

kds1980

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In hukumnamas collected by Dr. Ganda Singh jee and published in his book "hukumnamas" each one of Satguru Hargobind Sahib's hukumnamas state "guru guru japna janam savar sangat dee kamnaa guru pooree karraygaa. Sangatee da ruzgaar hog, ik daasee rahinaa. Maas muchee day naray nahee avanaa." Please examine the last line. Clearly it says not to even go near meat or fish. This can't be just a hoax because all hukumnamas collected issued from Satguru jee bear this order.

Here is jhatka maryada of nihangs

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is the jhatka maryada as described in the old sarabloh.com website (pre-Nidarpanthi) from 2001:
If people become aware of the Maryada behind Jhatka, then hopefully they will be able to understand that it is far more that just people quenching their thirst for meat.
Please visit Image Library One "Jhatka : 'Death from a single blow'", to view a series of photos dealing with the process Jhatka.
To Akali Nihang Singhs the Maryada of Jhatka is a gift from our beloved Satguru. To see Jhatka as the consumption of meat is comparable to seeing Gur Ka Langar as the consumption of food.
Satguru Maharaajs Langar is far more than just the distribution of food, Gur Ka Langaar should be prepared with extreme Sucham (cleanliness), the Gursikhs involved should be reciting Gurbani or doing Naam Simran..
When the langar has been prepared it is then brought before Satguru Maharaaj and Ardas is offered. During the Ardas, the Gursikh will ask Satguru Jee to bless the Langar by touching it with a weapon, usually a small iron Kard (Blade). The Langar has now become Gur Ka Langar. It is much more than just food.
The availability of Gur Ka Langar to people of all castes, creed and colour is a philosophical extension of Gursikhi, it demonstrates in a physical manner the spiritual concept of equality and the love of humanity.
The Maryada of Jhatka, in the same vein is far more than just the consumption of meat. However many modern day Sikhs are unaware of the Maryada involved in Jhatka and the philosophical implications involved.

Damdami Taksaals 11th Jathedar Sant Baba Gurbhachan Singh Jee Bhindranwale, has written that if the time arises when a Gursikh needs to eat meat to survive, he should kill the animal with his own Sri Sahib (Sword). So the knowledge of what Jhatka is and how it is performed is of use to those who do not consume flesh on a regular basis.
The process of Jhatka begins with the appointment of a Nihang Singh that will take responsibility for this seva. The Nihang Singh is selected by the Jathedar (leader) of the Dal. The Jathedar will then perform Ardas in Satguru Granth Sahib Jees Hazoori, asking Satguru's agia (permission or blessing) to enroll this Nihang Singh onto this seva. After this process is complete the Nihang Singh in question will be referred to as an Ardasi Singh.
In Akali Nihang Dals only Ardasi Singhs can take part in Satguru's seva. Only Ardasi Singhs can prepare and touch Gur Ka Langaar, only Ardasi Singhs can sit on Satguru Maharaajs Tabia (next to Satguru Jee on his Throne), only Ardasi Singhs can prepare Karah Prshaad, Shaheedi Degh and Mahaprashaad.
The induction of Ardasi Singhs to do Satguru Jees seva ensures that no impostors or people of bad Rehit get anywhere near Satguru Jee Langar or Prshaad We must appreciate that many people use the Bana of the Satguru Khalsa Panth in order to scare people. These impostors are commonly referred to a 'admin-cut', or the naked ones. admin-cut are not a new phenomena, they have also been around for a very long time. Although they may look like Nihangs, the admin-cut have no love or understanding of the Dal Panths Maryada. When these fools are caught committing wrong deeds they are often seriously beaten, in some cases they may even be killed. The process of appointing Ardasi Singhs ensures that no 'admin-cut' get anywhere near Satguru Maharaajs Degh, Langar or Mahaprshaad. Only Nihang Singhs of good Rehit are given the honour of becoming an Ardasi Singh.
This maryada also applies to Jhatka, only Ardasi Singhs can take part in this seva. Having been appointed to do the Seva, the Ardasi Singh will begin his preparation for Jhatka by having Ishnaan (Bath). He will wash his body and his hair, having done this he will put on a Sucha Chola (clean garment), Karmkassa and Dumalla. Finally he will clean his Karah with Sand.
After having Ishnaan, the Ardasi Singh will commence his paath in Satguru Granth Sahib Jee Hazoori, Vaar Sri Bhagauti Jee Ki Patsahi 10 (also known as Chandi-di-Vaar). The Ardasi Nihang Singh must be able to recite this Shabad from memory. Var Sri Bhagauti Je Ki depicts the epic battle between the Goddess of War Chandi or Durga, and the egoistic rakhshas (evil demons). Satguru Gobind Singh Jee Maharaaj describes a battle of horrific magnitude, where Chandi, seated upon her tiger is dispatching the Evil Rakhshas. When he has completed the shabad, the Ardasi Singh does Namaskar and leaves Maharaajs Hazoori.
Whilst the Nihang Singh that is going to perform Jhatka contemplates Chandi-di Vaar, another Ardasi Singh gives the Bakra (old goat) a full ishnaan (bath). Only goats are used within Akali Nihang Dals for Jhatka. When questioned about why Goats are used for Jhatka, the Chardi Kala Nihang Singhs replied "this is the Maryada started by Satguru Hargobind Sahib Jee, and we have no intention of changing it. After bathing the Goat, it is bought into the area in which Jhatka will be performed.. This designated area will have straw or hay put down on the floor.
The Nihang Singh that is going to perform Jhatka calmly approaches the Goat. Some Nihang Singhs encircle the goat in Gatka Pentra (Movements associated with Shastr Vidia), this has the effect of calming the goat and making it feel comfortable seeing the Shastr (sword).
The Tilk Laguan Vala Singh (The Singh who is going to anoint his weapon) then stands next to the Goat, at this stage some Akali Nihangs begin to recite Shastr Naam Mala, this is a Shabd in Sri Dasm Satguru Granth Sahib jee depicting the glossary of Weapons.
Another Ardasi Singh will have splashed water on the neck of the Goat, this makes the cut much smoother.
The Nihang Singh continues to move his Sword, very slowly above the head of the Goat. The goat at this stage will keep moving his head back and forth, because it finds itself in a new situation, it is unsure how to react.
Again the Tilk Lagaun Vala Singh moves the Sword, who represents the Goddess Chandi above the head of the Goat, the Goat now begins to move less. The Nihang Singh waits for the right moment.
The Goat drops his head slightly, then in a single shin (The same amount of time as it takes an eye to blink) the Nihang Singh focuses his mind on Maha Kaal (Great Death), and infuses the Sword with his Kamai (Spiritual Power achieved via meditations), the Sword severs the head of the Goat and the onlooking Nihang Singhs let off Jaikarey (Battle Cries). Click here to listen to an Akali Nihang Singh Jaikara.
The blood that rushes out of the Goats body is collected in a Bata, this will be used to apply tilak to all of the Shastr in Satguru Granth Sahib Jee's Hazoori. This process also takes place at Sach Khand Sri Hazoor Sahib Jee, all of Satguru Gobind Singh Jee's weapons are anointed with blood. Some of the Purataan Akali Nihangs drink the blood neat, it is said to be a good source of iron.
The goats head is placed on a Sarbloh Plate and then shown to the Sangat, the purpose of this is to show that it has been with one clean cut. The Bibeeki Singhs (Nihang Singhs of very Strict Rehit) will only eat flesh that has been killed in a single blow, Jhatka. They will refuse to eat flesh even if one little blood-vessel remains in contact with the head and body, this is called Patka.
The Body of the Goat is now passed on to the Ardasi Nihang Singhs who are in control of the Langar. They will skin, chop and cook the flesh. Whilst cooking the flesh they will recite Gurbani of Dasm Sri Satguru Granth Sahib Jee Maharaaj. After the flesh is cooked, a small amount of it is taken into Satguru Granth Sahib Jee Maharaajs Hazoori. Ardas is performed and the tip of the sword is dipped into the cooked flesh. Having performed Ardas, the flesh has become 'Mahaprashaad', the great Prshaad.
The 'Mahaprashaad' is then distributed to all of the Sangat, they must be seated in Pangat (rows on the floor). The brains of the Bakra (goat) are served to the Akali Nihang Singh that performed the Jhatka.
If a Nihang Singh consumes Mahaprashaad and believes it just to be meat, then he is committing a huge sin. Mahaprashaad is a gift from Satguru Hargobind Sahib Jee Maharaaj to his army.
Just as the consumption of 'Gur ka Langaar' is more that just eating 'food', the consumption of 'Mahaprashaad' is far more than the consumption of 'meat'. The Sucham (cleanliness) kept whilst Mahaprashaad is prepared is of a very high level, no body except the Ardasi Singhs can touch anything. When Mahaprashaad is being prepared the Nihang Singh recite Gurbani and focuses on Mahakaal.
The maryada of Jhatka has deep philosophical implications. The worship of weapons cannot be complete without worship of the Battle-field. The highest from of worship on the battle-field is the slaying of the Dusht (enemies). To increase our control of weapons, Satguru Jee has started the Maryada of Shikaar (Hunting) and the son of Hunting is the consumption of flesh.
So we hope that this brief introduction to the Maryada of Jhatka, helps the Sangat appreciate that Jhatka is much more than the craving to eat meat. Jhatka only takes place on special occasions such as Gurpurbs.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 

Astroboy

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Drkhalsa Ji,

We are suppose to Learn Think Discuss Share Evolve from the happennings within the sikh panth.

aad Ji 's opinion would be the final say for me. Let her speak with regards to this.

Akaal Sehai,

Santokh
 

Astroboy

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ਮਾਸੁ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਰਿ ਮੂਰਖੁ ਝਗੜੇ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਣੈ ॥
ਕਉਣੁ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਉਣੁ ਸਾਗੁ ਕਹਾਵੈ ਕਿਸੁ ਮਹਿ ਪਾਪ ਸਮਾਣੇ ॥
(Ang 1289-1290) Var of Raag Malhar
Only the fool quarrels over the question of eating or not eating of the meat. He does not have the True Wisdom. Without True Wisdom or Meditation, he harps on which is flesh and which is not flesh and which food is sinful and which is not. A deeper study of the whole hymn brings out:

i. Herein, Guru Sahib is addressing a Vaishnav Pandit who believes that he can achieve his spiritual goal only by avoiding meat as food and not trying to obtain the true wisdom through meditation. He has stressed that only avoiding meat will not lead one to the achievement of Spiritual Bliss if one does not do Naam-Simran. This equally applies to all, including non-meat-eating Sikhs.
ii. It relates to the flesh or meat in general and not to any particular type of flesh - whether prepared by Halaal or Jhatka method. The supporters of flesh eating do not accept at all the intake of all types of meat, but according to them, only Jhatka meat is permissible and HaIaal is totally prohibited.
Supporters of the word Kuthha to mean Halaal meat very often reference the following cited couplet to support their contention.

ਅਭਾਖਿਆ ਕਾ ਕੁਠਾ ਬਕਰਾ ਖਾਣਾ ॥
ਚਉਕੇ ਉਪਰਿ ਕਿਸੈ ਨ ਜਾਣਾ ॥
(Ang 472)

They eat the meat obtained while uttering the unspeakable word (referring to Qalima of the Muslims which the Hindus considered as unspeakable) and allow none to enter their kitchen square.

They ascribe it to mean the meat obtained by slaying goats while uttering Qalima, which is the Muslim way of slaughtering animals. If the word Kuthha were to mean HaIaai meat, the use of the word abhakhya is superfluous. The sentence should have been simply Kuthha Khaanaa to mean the eating of the HaIaaI meat. The very fact that the word Kuthha has been qualified with the adjective abhakhya kaa means that Kuthha refers to simple meat of the killed animal, irrespective of the method of slaying the animal; and while qualifying meat to mean Haiaai, the words abhakhya kaa had to be particularly prefixed to convey that sense. Almost all the renowned commentators and translators of Sri Guru Granth Sahib, e.g., Bhai Sahib Vir Singh, Professor Sahib Singh, S. Manmohan Singh, etc., have interpreted this couplet in this way.
It is thus clear that the word Kuthha means simply meat of the killed animal and does not go into the detail of how the animal is killed. Like so many other adulterations committed by the anti-Sikhs in Gurmat Rahit Maryada, this interpretation of the word Kuthha to mean Halaal meat has also been initiated and popularized by those very anti- Sikhs. To some of our uninformed brothers and sisters this at first might seem like a trivial issue, but when taken into context of its importance with regard to our relation with Akaal Purakh Ji through rehit (discipline) it is indeed a very serious and vital issue towards being true to the Sikh discipline prescribed by Guru Sahib.
Note: References to various hukamname and Gurbani Pankthea from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji which prohibit the eating of animal flesh in clear-cut and unambiguous language provided below.
Food for Thought
When we are blessed with Khande Ki Pahul from Guru Sahib in the form of Panj Pyare we make a firm commitment to Guru Sahib to uphold the rehit (discipline) prescribed to us at all times as a show of our love for Him. Indeed the upkeep of rehit is of prime importance for a Sikh for without it, one cannot be called a Sikh:
Without the Code of Conduct, One can not be referred to as a Sikh.
Without the Code of Conduct, One will suffer in the Lord's Court.
(RahitNama Bhai Desa Singh Ji)
Subsequesntly if a Sikh is to commit one of the four bujjer kurehits (serious transgressions) they can no longer be called a Sikh and must beg forgiveness from the Panj Pyare and request to be blessed with Khande Ki Pahul once again so they can rejoin the Khalsa Panth.
Among the four major transgressions is the consumption of meat/eggs, as is instructed at all amrit sanchars throughout the panth. In recent times this has become an issue for some uninformed and misguided individuals and many individuals have abused the ignorance of some of our Sikh brothers and sisters as a means to divide us. Others seek to brush the issue off as a trivial matter having nothing to do with Sikh discipline. Indeed this is not a trivial issue, as the aforementioned rehitnama indicates, for without discipline we cannot be called a Sikh, and we cannot obtain the Grace of the SatGuru Ji without which no progress can be made in achieving the bliss of Naam Simran.
The Solution
Everyday in our Ardas (Supplication) to Guru Sahib we ask Him to bless us with Bibek, literally meaning a sense of discernment/discrimination. Discrimination in the sense that we ask Him to guide us towards those things/individuals who incite God consciousness/Godlike qualities within us and to save us from those things/individuals which rob us from God consciousness/ Godlike qualities. Essentially at the root it is Maya (lust, anger, greed, attachment, ego), the five thieves which rob us of our innate Godlike qualities and keep us in separation from Akaal Purakh Ji. To fight off these five formidable thieves Guru Sahib gives us Naam and tells us to keep the sangat of Gursikhs.

This includes eating from the hands of Gursikhs also as it is an established truth that the food one eats affects not only the body's health, but the state of the mind as well, as the old saying goes, 'you are what you eat.' That is why Guru Nanak Sahib refused to accept the most nourishing and dainty dishes prepared in the house of Malik Bhago who earned his wealth by dishonest means but preferred the simple dry food prepared by the so called low-caste carpenter, Bhai Lalo who earned an honest livelihood from his own hard labor. Similarly, Sahib Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji refused to drink water brought by a young man who had never done any service to anyone in his life, as service to humanity and honest living are fundamental pillars of the Sikh faith. Subsequently Guru Sahib commanded the recipients of the holy Amrit to share food amongst themselves in the same plate, but forbade them to do so with non-Amritdharis. One of the edicts given at the Amrit Sanchar ceremony is:
ਗੁਰਸਿਖ ਦੀ ਰੋਟੀ ਬੇਟੀ ਦੀ ਸਾਂਝ ਗੁਰਸਿਖ ਨਾਲ।
The Gursikhs have to share food and establish martial relationships with Gursikhs only.
This edict is enjoined upon all the Sikhs at the inititation ceremony at every Amrit Sanchar in the Panth irrespective of organizations or Jathas arranging it.
As with many Sikh traditions that are slowly being forgotten, so too is the tradition of keeping Bibek, discrimination towards God Consciousness in both the physical and mental realms of existence. Some say that this tradition does not seem to fit in line with Gurmat as it creates a sense of elitism and others go the extent of saying that the practice reeks of Brahminism. This assumption is clearly based on their own ignorance regarding Gurmat principles and traditions. Every human being regardless of their background is eligible to offer their head to Guru Sahib, and be blessed with Khande Ki Pahul to join the Khalsa Panth after which one can share food with them. This is diametrically opposed to the Brahminical system where one is confined to one particular cast for the duration of their lifetime, for instance an untouchable would remain and untouchable and nothing could change this.

Anyhow going back to how this relates to the current dilemma facing the SGPC and those Sikh brothers and sisters who have been led astray to believe that the consumption of meat is in line with Gurmat. If these Sikhs were to adopt Tat Gurmat Maryada tradition as espoused by all the Guru Sahiban then they would not face this dilemma. If we were to all become true Bibeki's at both the physical and mental level then this would not be a problem for us. Who is a Bibeki you ask? A Bibeki is a person who whole heartedly adheres to and regulates their life in accordance with the Guru's teachings.

Bhai Sahib Kahan Singh of Nabha, in his Encyclopedia of Sikh Literature on page 863 defines a Bibeki as "...a Sikh who is strict and steadfast in following the principles of Sikh Dharma." The terms Bibek and Vivek are synonymous and have the same meaning i.e. 'sense of discrimination; which implies the unquestionable adherence to the command of the Satguru. Our SatGuru has clearly commanded His Sikhs to be steadfast in Rehit and not to consume meat of any form as has been proven above. If we really love our Guru then we must be true to the discipline He has given us. It is high time that the faulty Sikh leadership stop misleading our brothers and sisters into believing that Kuthha is synonymous with Halal meat. Its high time that we as individuals make it our own responsibility to be true to rehit so that we can attain the blessings of Satguru Ji. Most of the books and today's pseudo scholars are out to divide the Sikhs by propagating this false information, what better way to do this then to have the Sikhs separated from their Guru; for without Guru Sahib, without his true rehit, we are nothing more than dead carcasses
 

kds1980

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Apr 3, 2005
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It is thus clear that the word Kuthha means simply meat of the killed animal and does not go into the detail of how the animal is killed. Like so many other adulterations committed by the anti-Sikhs in Gurmat Rahit Maryada, this interpretation of the word Kuthha to mean Halaal meat has also been initiated and popularized by those very anti- Sikhs. To some of our uninformed brothers and sisters this at first might seem like a trivial issue, but when taken into context of its importance with regard to our relation with Akaal Purakh Ji through rehit (discipline) it is indeed a very serious and vital issue towards being true to the Sikh discipline prescribed by Guru Sahib.
Note: References to various hukamname and Gurbani Pankthea from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji which prohibit the eating of animal flesh in clear-cut and unambiguous language provided below.

Dear santokh singh ji

The article you have posted is pure AKJ propaganda.Before continuing this discussion
just answer my 1 simple question.It is unanimously accepted by sikh as well as non sikh historians that khalsa soldiers consumed meat.The same khalsa soldiers who preferred death rather than cutting their hair.Also sikhs were applying guerrilla warfare techniques
and they were living in jungles so it was impossible for them to practice vegetarianism

Now if meat was kurehit then it means that majority of khalsa's were kurehiti and they were not khalsa's.So we don't have any sikh history left.Do you beleve that 18th century khalsa soldiers were so weak in their rehat?
 

kds1980

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Apr 3, 2005
4,502
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DrK -- Thank you!

And, kds ji -- Animals are wonderful.

It is hard to accept that Nihangs eat the goats they raise. It is hard to contemplate the mass slaughter of animals for human consumption. It is hard to contemplate the death of the rain forests and grasslands where magnificent creatures once had their abode.

These are my feelings and emotions. Only my feelings and emotions. Only my choice. Not my seva.

Antonia ji

Since the start the start of civilizations we humans have been giving suffering animals for our benefit and all usage of animals involve cruelity.Imagine if some aliens invade our planet take away with us.Castrate our men and the force them to plough their fields.They also impregnate women put then in tight shed then after giving birth take their babies and force them to produce as much milk for them as they can then what do we call these cruel aliens.But we are exactly doing same things on animals.

If anybody feels for animals then he/she should stop using any animal product.or decline in demand of 1 animal product give rise to another.India is the perfect example of this
India is perfect example of this Indians don't eat beef but they are fond of cow milk.
As a result there is large scale diary farming of cows butwhen cows stop producing milk they throw them on roads beccause they are economically unviable for them.Thees cows suffer inhumane cruelities.So what should a naturalist suggest here,he will obviously suggest that these useless cows and oxen should be slaughtered.
 

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