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Astroboy

ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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Since some Sikhs believe that it is against the basics of Sikhi to eat meat, fish or eggs, hence non-vegetarian foods of this sort is neither served nor brought onto the Gurdwara premises. Others believe that the reason vegetarian food is served in Gurdwaras is so that people of all backgrounds can consume the food without any anxiety about their particular dietary requirement and to promote complete equality among all the peoples of the world. Alcoholic and narcotic substances are stringently against the Sikh diet, hence these with any meat products are strictly not allowed on Gurdwara premises.
 

Astroboy

ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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Here the word "kuthaa" is in relation to meat of sheep/goat

  • Word by Word breakdown
  • Abhaakhi means according to Reference 1 below: 1. (from Sanskrit Abhaksha) "uneatable" 2. (from Sanskrit A+Bhasha) bad language, language not to be uttered. Also Abhakkhu ( ਅਭਖੁ ) (from Sk. Abhaksha) uneatable, forbidden food.
  • Kaa means "of"
  • bakraa mean "sheep", bakree means "goat"
  • khaanaa mean "to eat"; "is eaten"
SGGS Page 472 Full Shabad ਅਭਾਖਿਆ ਕਾ ਕੁਠਾ ਬਕਰਾ ਖਾਣਾ ॥
abhaakhi-aa kaa kuthaa bakraa khaanaa.
They eat the forbidden "Kuthaa" sheep
 

Astroboy

ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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Rojaa Dharey, Manaavey Mlah, Svaadat Jee Sanghaarey. Aapaa Dekh Avar Nahin Dekhey,Kaahey Kow Jhakh Maarey. (http://www.gurugranthdarpan.com/1375.html pg. 1375)
You keep fasts (i.e., religious acts) to appease God. At the same time you slay life for your relish. This utter selfishness is nothing but empty or nonsensical talk.

.........................................................................................................

Kabir Jee Jo Maareh Jor Kar,Kaahtey Heh Ju Halaal. Daftar Daee Jab Kaadh Hal, Hoegaa Kaun Havaal(http://www.gurugranthdarpan.com/1375.html pg. 1375)
Whosoever slays life by force and call it sanctified; What will be his fate when he will be called to account for it in His Court?
 
Jan 6, 2007
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SGGS Page 467 Full Shabad
ਓਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਮੰਦੈ ਪੈਰੁ ਨ ਰਖਿਓ ਕਰਿ ਸੁਕ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਕਮਾਇਆ ॥
ਓਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਦੁਨੀਆ ਤੋੜੇ ਬੰਧਨਾ ਅੰਨੁ ਪਾਣੀ ਥੋੜਾ ਖਾਇਆ ॥
onHee mandai pair na rakhi-o kar sukarit Dharam kamaa-i-aa.
onHee dunee-aa torhay banDhnaa ann paanee thorhaa khaa-i-aa.

They do not place their feet in sin, but do good deeds and live righteously in Dharma.
They burn away the bonds of the world, and eat a simple diet of grain and water.

Bhai Sahib Begum ji,

Do you expect Randip Singh to understand the above. He will dismiss any sentence that does not say "MEAT" specifically. So do not waste time with him.

"ਓਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਦੁਨੀਆ ਤੋੜੇ ਬੰਧਨਾ ਅੰਨੁ ਪਾਣੀ ਥੋੜਾ ਖਾਇਆ ॥"
This is the life style of a Sadhu and not to be understood by a Wordly person.

bakraa means "he goat", bakree means "she goat"
Sheep - Bherd.

Kabir Jee Jo Maareh Jor Kar,Kaahtey Heh Ju Halaal. Daftar Daee Jab Kaadh Hal, Hoegaa Kaun Havaal
Whosoever slays life by force and call it sanctified; What will be his fate when he will be called to account for it in His Court?

Do not expect him to understand this because animal life is of no value to him.

pauVI ]
scw swihbu eyku qUM ijin sco scu vrqwieAw ]
ijsu qUM dyih iqsu imlY scu qw iqn@I scu kmwieAw ]
siqguir imilAY scu pwieAw ijn@ kY ihrdY scu vswieAw ]
mUrK scu n jwxn@I mnmuKI jnmu gvwieAw ]
ivic dunIAw kwhy AwieAw ]8]

True path is bestowed only by His blessing.

Those that are destined will get the understanding and realisation.

“You can take a horse to water but cannot make him drink it.”

Thoughts become the Words; Words become the Actions; Actions become the Habits; Habits becomes the Character; Charater becomes THE DESTINY.

Why meddle with his destiny.

Regards

Ekmusafir_ajnabi

 
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Astroboy

ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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Ekmusafir Ji,

Since Randip Singh and others did not answer some of my questions, here is one for you:-

What constituted the diet of our 10 gurus in their lifetime ?

Akaal Sehai,

Santokh
 

kds1980

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Ekmusafir Ji,

Since Randip Singh and others did not answer some of my questions, here is one for you:-

What constituted the diet of our 10 gurus in their lifetime ?

Akaal Sehai,

Santokh

Just read this may be it could help you and others.

Misconceptions About Eating Meat - The Times of the Gurus
by Sandeep Singh Brar

Hunting Purely for Amusement & Sport - Not for Any Religious Reasons

Guru Gobind Singh, Vachitra Natak, Chapter 8, Chaupai 1-3
"When I became a Spiritual Sovereign, I tried to spread Religion to the best of my ability. I hunted various games in the forest, including bears, nilgaus and elks. Then, I left my home and proceeded towards the city of Paunta. On the banks of the Kalindri, I refreshed and amused myself with many kinds of amusements. There, I killed many ferocious lions and also nilgaus and elks."

Bhai Gurdas, Var 26 Pauri 24
"Earlier Gurus sat on the pontific throne, Leading a life of peace and contentment; Hargobind keeps dogs for sports, And goes out for hunting wild animals."

Creation of the Khalsa by Guru Gobind Singh in 1699

All of the Sikh cronicles record the fact that during the ceremony of initiating the first five Sikhs into the Khalsa brotherhood Guru Gobind Singh asked for volunteers who would be willing to give their heads. He took each volunteer into the tent and a loud thud was heard and blood trickled out of the tent. Guru Gobind Singh then emerged from the tent with his sword dripping with blood and asked for the next volunteer. Eventually Guru Gobind Singh emerged from the tent with the five beloved ones alive. He pulled back the covers of the tent and revealed to the thousands gathered that he had really slaughtered five goats with his sword and not the five beloved ones.

Guru Nanak Eating Meat

Bhai Mani Singh, Gyan Ratnavali, pg. 123
At Kurukshetra, a great centre of Hindu pilgrimage, where a big fair was being held on the occasion of the solar eclipse. A follower of the Guru offered him deer meat to eat. The Guru who had never made any distinction between one kind of food and another and took whatever was offered to him, did not refuse the courtesies of his devotee. And he allowed him to roast it for his food.

A History of the Sikh People by Dr. Gopal Singh, World Sikh University Press, Delhi
It first occurs in Bhai Mani Singh's Gyan Ratnavali (pg. 123) which mentions Nanak having been engaged in debate with a Pandit, called Nanau Chand. The deer-meat was, according to this version, brought to him as an offering by a Prince and his consort, who having been dispossessed of their realm, came to him for a blessing. In the dialogue that followed with the Pandit, he is not only convinced of Nanak's logic, but persuades also the fellow Brahmins, basing his argument on the Veda, the Puranas and even the Quran, saying that even the Hindu gods could be propieated since the earliest times only through yagnas in which meat was invariably served, and that it has been the dharma of the Kashatriya Kings since ages to hunt.

Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das Eating Meat

The Sikh Religion, Volume II by Max Arthur Macauliffe
One day the Guru had a meat dinner prepared. Amar Das said, "If the Guru is a searcher of hearts, he must know that I am a Vaishnav and do not touch flesh". The Guru (Guru Angad), knowing this, ordered that dal should be served him. Amar Das then reflected, "The Guru knoweth that meat is forbidden me, so he hath ordered that dal be served me instead." Amar Das then rapidly arrived at the conclusion that any disciple, whose practice differed from that of the Guru, must inevitably fail. He therefore told the cook that if the Guru were kind enough to give him meat, he would partake of it. The Guru, on hearing this, knew that superstition was departing from Amar Das's heart, and he handed him his own dish. When Amar Das had partaken of it, he for the first time felt peace of mind, and as he became further absorbed in his attentions and devotion to the Guru, celestial light dawned on his heart. Thus did he break with the strictest tenet of Vaishnavism and become a follower of the Guru. One day the Guru, in order to further remove Amar Das's prejudices, thus began to instruct him: "The meats it is proper to abstain from are these - Other's wealth, other's wives, slander, envy, covetousness and pride. If any one abstaining from meat is proud on the subject and says, 'I never touch meat,' let him consider that the infant sucks nipples of flesh, that the married man takes home with him a vessel of flesh." Guru Angad then repeated and expounded Guru Nanak's sloks on the subject. He also related to Amar Das the story of Duni Chand and his father, giving in the Life of Guru Nanak. "If you think of it," continued the Guru, "there is life in everything, even in fruits and flowers, so say nothing of flesh; but whatever thou eatest, eat remembering God, and it shall be profitable to thee. Whatever cometh to thee without hurting a fellow creature is nectar, and whatever thou recievest by giving pain is poison. To shatter another's hopes, to calumniate others, and to misappropriate their property is worse than to eat meat."

Macauliffe collaborated with the most learned Sikhs of his time when he wrote this over 100 years ago. The exact written source of this account is unknown.

Guru Hargobind Eating Meat

Mohsin Fani, Dabistan-e-Mazahib
Mohsin Fani was a historian, traveller and mystic who was born around 1615 in Persia. During the lifetime of Guru Hargobind he migrated to India and studied the religions of India. He became very good friends with Guru Hargobind and spent a great deal of time with the Guru upto the Gurus death in 1644. In between 1645 and 1654 he produced his great work 'Dabistan-e-Mazahib' meaning 'the schools of thought of various religions'. This book provides the most accurate account of the life of Guru Hargobind and the Sikhs at that time. Mohsin Fani writes:

"The Guru believes in one God. His followers put not their faith in idol-worship. They never pray or practice austerities like the Hindus. They believe not in their incarnations, or places of pilgrimage nor the Sanskrit language which the Hindus deem to be the language of gods. They believe that all the Gurus are the same as Nanak. The Sikhs are not restricted in the matter of eating or drinking. When Partap Mall Giani saw a Hindu boy who had a mind to embrace Islam, he said, 'Why do you become a Muhammadan? If you have an inclination to eat everything, you may become a Sikh of the Guru and eat whatever you like."

Some use a quote from Mohsin Fani to prove that Guru Nanak and Guru Arjan Dev did not allow Sikhs to eat meat. Since he only emigrated to India during the lifetime of Guru Hargobind, his information about Guru Nanak and Guru Arjan Dev cannot be considered an eyewitness account of his. Also vegetarian proponents usually only give a partial quote, the full quote of his is:

"Nanak himself abstained from animal food and the prudent Arjan endevoured to add to his saintly merit and influence by a similar moderation; but the adventurous Hargobind became a hunter and an eater of flesh, and his disciples imitated him in these robust practices."

Gokul Chand Narang
Another contemporary of the Guru, Gokul Chand Narang provides the following eyewitness acount:

"Hargobind began to devote most of his time to wrestling, riding, tent-pegging and hunting the tigers and the boars. With the change of aims the occupation changed, and with the change in the occupation came a change in tastes and even diet. Animal food was not only sanctioned but encouraged."

The Khalsa Army Under Banda Singh Bahadur Eating Meat

An eyewitness account of the siege of the Khalsa army at Gurdaspur and how the Khalsa soldiers and Banda Singh Bahadur bravely held out against the Mughal army for eight months is provided below:

Khafi Khan, Muntakhabul-Lubab, pg. 723
"The Sikhs were not strict observers of cast, they slaughtered oxen and other animals and not having any firewood, ate the flesh raw. Many died of dysentry and privation... when all the grass was gone, they gathered leaves from trees. When these were consumed, they stripped the bark and broke off the small shoots, dried them, ground them down and used them instead of flour, thus keeping body and soul together. They also collected the bones of animals and used them in the same way. Some assert that they saw a few of the Sikhs cut flesh from their own thights, roast it, and eat it.

http://www.sherwoodhall.notts.sch.uk/re/sikhism/meat.htm


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If anybody beleives that vegetarianism an essentialis a part of sikhism then he should create a new religion rather than following sikhism created by guru's.
 

kds1980

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03-05-02 OSU SCIENTIST QUESTIONS THE MORAL BASIS OF A VEGAN DIET


OSU SCIENTIST QUESTIONS THE MORAL BASIS OF A VEGAN DIET

03-05-02

By Peg Herring, 541-737-9180
SOURCE: Steven Davis, 541-737-1892

CORVALLIS - Why is it right to kill the mouse and not the cow?

Davis has found evidence that suggests that the unseen losses of field animals are very high. One study documented that a single operation, mowing alfalfa, caused a 50 percent reduction in the gray-tailed vole population. Mortality rates increase with every pass of the tractor to plow, plant, and harvest. Additions of herbicides and pesticides cause additional harm to animals of the field.

In contrast, grazing ruminants such as cattle produce food and require fewer entries into the fields with tractors and other equipment. In grazed pastures, according to Davis, less wildlife is lost to the mower blades, and more find stable habitat in untilled fields. And no-till agriculture also helps stabilize soil and reduce run-off into streams.

"Pasture-forage production, with herbivores harvesting the forage, would be the ultimate in 'no-till' agriculture," Davis said.

Davis proposes a ruminant-pasture model of food production, which would replace all poultry, pig and lamb production with beef and dairy products. According to his calculations, such a model would result in the deaths of 300 million fewer animals annually (counting both field animals and cattle) than would a total vegan model. This difference, according to Davis, is mainly the result of fewer field animals killed in pasture and forage production than in the growing and harvest of grain, beans, and corn.
 
Jan 6, 2007
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Ekmusafir Ji,

Since Randip Singh and others did not answer some of my questions, here is one for you:-

What constituted the diet of our 10 gurus in their lifetime ?

Akaal Sehai,

Santokh


Sorry Begum ji,

What I was about to say, I have been forbidden to do so.

It is not for me to make judgements on our Gurus.

This is my Gurus message that all Bhagat have followed to date.

"ਓਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਦੁਨੀਆ ਤੋੜੇ ਬੰਧਨਾ ਅੰਨੁ ਪਾਣੀ ਥੋੜਾ ਖਾਇਆ ॥"
This is enough for me.

I will let Randip Singh and KDS make judgement.:wah:

Ekmusafir_ajnabi
 

Randip Singh

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SGGS Page 467 Full Shabad
ਓਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਮੰਦੈ ਪੈਰੁ ਨ ਰਖਿਓ ਕਰਿ ਸੁਕ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਕਮਾਇਆ ॥
ਓਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਦੁਨੀਆ ਤੋੜੇ ਬੰਧਨਾ ਅੰਨੁ ਪਾਣੀ ਥੋੜਾ ਖਾਇਆ ॥
onHee mandai pair na rakhi-o kar sukarit Dharam kamaa-i-aa.
onHee dunee-aa torhay banDhnaa ann paanee thorhaa khaa-i-aa.

They do not place their feet in sin, but do good deeds and live righteously in Dharma.
They burn away the bonds of the world, and eat a simple diet of grain and water.

Then take this literally as you have other shabads and ONLY eat grain and water.
 

Randip Singh

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'Kabir, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish, and wine,'

'will go to hell despite all pilgrimages, fasts, and rituals.' (Kabir, Adi Granth, p. 1377)

..............................................................................................
  • “Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false. You say that the One Lord is in all, so why do you kill chickens? ||1||”

1. Those mortals who consume marijuana, flesh and wine - no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. (SGGS p1337)
In this instance let us firstly add the Gurmukhi with the English:

mukat padaarath paa-ee-ai thaak na avghat ghaat.
231
kabeer ayk gharhee aaDhee gharee aaDhee hooN tay aaDh.
bhagtan saytee gostay jo keenay so laabh. 232
kabeer bhaaNg maachhulee suraa paan jo jo paraanee khaaNhi.
tirath barat naym kee-ay tay sabhai rasaatal jaaNhi. 233
neechay lo-in kar raha-o lay saajan ghat maahi.
sabh ras khayla-o pee-a sa-o kisee lakhaava-o naahi. 234
aath jaam cha-usath gharee tu-a nirkhat rahai jee-o.
neechay lo-in ki-o kara-o sabh ghat daykh-a-u pee-o. 235
sun sakhee pee-a meh jee-o basai jee-a meh basai ke pee-o.
jee-o pee-o boojha-o nahee ghat meh jee-o ke pee-o. 236
kabeer baaman guroo hai jagat kaa bhagtan kaa gur naahi.
arajh urajh kai pach moo-aa chaara-o baydahu maahi.237
har hai khaaNd rayt meh bikhree haathee chunee na jaa-ay.
kahi kabeer gur bhalee bujhaa-ee keetee ho-ay kai khaa-ay. 238
kabeer ja-o tuhi saaDh piramm kee sees kaat kar go-ay.
khaylat khaylat haal kar jo kichh ho-ay ta ho-ay. 239
kabeer ja-o tuhi saaDh piramm kee paakay saytee khayl.
kaachee sarsa-uN payl kai naa khal bha-ee na tayl.240
dhooNdhat doleh anDh gat ar cheenat naahee sant.
kahi naamaa ki-o paa-ee-ai bin bhagtahu bhagvant. 241
har so heeraa chhaad kai karahi aan kee aas.
tay nar dojak jaahigay sat bhaakhai ravidaas. 242
kabeer ja-o garihu karahi ta Dharam kar naahee ta kar bairaag.
bairaagee banDhan karai taa ko bado abhaag. 243

He obtains the treasure of liberation, and the difficult road to the Lord is not blocked.
231
Kabeer, whether is is for an hour, half an hour, or half of that,
whatever it is, it is worthwhile to speak with the Holy. 232
Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine -
no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. 233
Kabeer, I keep my eyes lowered, and enshrine my Friend within my heart.
I enjoy all pleasures with my Beloved, but I do not let anyone else know.234
Twenty-four hours a day, every hour, my soul continues to look to You, O Lord.
Why should I keep my eyes lowered? I see my Beloved in every heart. 235
Listen, O my companions: my soul dwells in my Beloved, and my Beloved dwells in my soul.
I realize that there is no difference between my soul and my Beloved; I cannot tell whether my soul or my Beloved dwells in my heart. 236
Kabeer, the Brahmin may be the guru of the world, but he is not the Guru of the devotees.
He rots and dies in the perplexities of the four Vedas. 237
The Lord is like sugar, scattered in the sand; the elephant cannot pick it up.
Says Kabeer, the Guru has given me this sublime understanding: become an ant, and feed on it. 238
Kabeer, if you desire to play the game of love with the Lord, then cut off your head, and make it into a ball.
Lose yourself in the play of it, and then whatever will be, will be. 239
Kabeer, if you desire to play the game of love with the Lord, play it with someone with committment.
Pressing the unripe mustard seeds produces neither oil nor flour. 240
Searching, the mortal stumbles like a blind person, and does not recognize the Saint.
Says Naam Dayv, how can one obtain the Lord God, without His devotee?


Taking out the sentence we see


kabeer bhaaNg maachhulee suraa paan jo jo paraanee khaaNhi.
Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine –

tirath barat naym kee-ay tay sabhai rasaatal jaaNhi. 233
no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. 233
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji


Firstly note that maachlee is not flesh, but is indeed fish. The word in Punjabi for flesh is maas. Then secondly one must ask, why is there a forbidding in the consumption of fish specifically. The answer lies in reading the entire paragraph and a picture emerges. In the last two lines the statement is made:

kabeer ja-o garihu karahi ta Dharam kar naahee ta kar bairaag.
Kabeer, if you live the householder's life, then practice righteousness; otherwise, you might as well retire from the world.

bairaagee banDhan karai taa ko bado abhaag. 243
If someone renounces the world, and then gets involved in worldly entanglements, he shall suffer terrible misfortune. 243
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji


Now putting this in its entire context what Bhagat Kabir is actually criticising in the rich and those in power. The thrill seekers, who are addicted to their senses and those addicted to the 5 thieves. Kabir was born around the area of Benares, and was brought up in a poor Muslim weavers family. He saw the excesses of the rich around him, while the poor starved. Foods like fish and wine were associated with the rich who had an excessive disposable income. Marijuana was associated with either idol people or those who had time and money to waste. Kabir abhorred this, and this statement is a social comment about the excesses of the rich. At the end he clearly states, that those people who do their duties as householders (i.e. work hard, care for other etc) are the ones who will be liberated, and those who live by excesses will suffer. One cantherefore clearly see that this is in no way a comment about eating meat (because of mistranslation) or about avoiding certain foods (as has been misrepresented).

My friend you are making a brilliant case for this essay....i.e. quoting one liners and hence destroying the meaning of the shabad. ;)
 

Randip Singh

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Here the word "kuthaa" is in relation to meat of sheep/goat
  • Word by Word breakdown
  • Abhaakhi means according to Reference 1 below: 1. (from Sanskrit Abhaksha) "uneatable" 2. (from Sanskrit A+Bhasha) bad language, language not to be uttered. Also Abhakkhu ( ਅਭਖੁ ) (from Sk. Abhaksha) uneatable, forbidden food.
  • Kaa means "of"
  • bakraa mean "sheep", bakree means "goat"
  • khaanaa mean "to eat"; "is eaten"
SGGS Page 472 Full Shabad ਅਭਾਖਿਆ ਕਾ ਕੁਠਾ ਬਕਰਾ ਖਾਣਾ ॥
abhaakhi-aa kaa kuthaa bakraa khaanaa.
They eat the forbidden "Kuthaa" sheep

Full Shabad:

ਮਃ
मः १ ॥
Mehlā 1.
First Mehl:


ਮਾਣਸ ਖਾਣੇ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਵਾਜ
माणस खाणे करहि निवाज ॥
Māṇas kẖāṇė karahi nivāj.
The man-eaters say their prayers.


ਛੁਰੀ ਵਗਾਇਨਿ ਤਿਨ ਗਲਿ ਤਾਗ
छुरी वगाइनि तिन गलि ताग ॥
Cẖẖurī vagā*in ṯin gal ṯāg.
Those who wield the knife wear the sacred thread around their necks.


ਤਿਨ ਘਰਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਣ ਪੂਰਹਿ ਨਾਦ
तिन घरि ब्रहमण पूरहि नाद ॥
Ŧin gẖar barahmaṇ pūreh nāḏ.
In their homes, the Brahmins sound the conch.


ਉਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਭਿ ਆਵਹਿ ਓਈ ਸਾਦ
उन्हा भि आवहि ओई साद ॥
Unĥā bẖe āvahi o*ī sāḏ.
They too have the same taste.


ਕੂੜੀ ਰਾਸਿ ਕੂੜਾ ਵਾਪਾਰੁ
कूड़ी रासि कूड़ा वापारु ॥
Kūṛī rās kūṛā vāpār.
False is their capital, and false is their trade.


ਕੂੜੁ ਬੋਲਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਆਹਾਰੁ
कूड़ु बोलि करहि आहारु ॥
Kūṛ bol karahi āhār.
Speaking falsehood, they take their food.


ਸਰਮ ਧਰਮ ਕਾ ਡੇਰਾ ਦੂਰਿ
सरम धरम का डेरा दूरि ॥
Saram ḏẖaram kā dėrā ḏūr.
The home of modesty and Dharma is far from them.


ਨਾਨਕ ਕੂੜੁ ਰਹਿਆ ਭਰਪੂਰਿ
नानक कूड़ु रहिआ भरपूरि ॥
Nānak kūṛ rahi*ā bẖarpūr.
O Nanak, they are totally permeated with falsehood.


ਮਥੈ ਟਿਕਾ ਤੇੜਿ ਧੋਤੀ ਕਖਾਈ
मथै टिका तेड़ि धोती कखाई ॥
Mathai tikā ṯėṛ ḏẖoṯī kakẖā*ī.
The sacred marks are on their foreheads, and the saffron loin-cloths are around their waists;


ਹਥਿ ਛੁਰੀ ਜਗਤ ਕਾਸਾਈ
हथि छुरी जगत कासाई ॥
Hath cẖẖurī jagaṯ kāsā*ī.
in their hands they hold the knives - they are the butchers of the world!


ਨੀਲ ਵਸਤ੍ਰ ਪਹਿਰਿ ਹੋਵਹਿ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ
नील वसत्र पहिरि होवहि परवाणु ॥
Nīl vasṯar pahir hoveh parvāṇ.
Wearing blue robes, they seek the approval of the Muslim rulers.


ਮਲੇਛ ਧਾਨੁ ਲੇ ਪੂਜਹਿ ਪੁਰਾਣੁ
मलेछ धानु ले पूजहि पुराणु ॥
Malėcẖẖ ḏẖān lė pūjeh purāṇ.
Accepting bread from the Muslim rulers, they still worship the Puraanas.


ਅਭਾਖਿਆ ਕਾ ਕੁਠਾ ਬਕਰਾ ਖਾਣਾ
अभाखिआ का कुठा बकरा खाणा ॥
Abẖākẖi*ā kā kuṯẖā bakrā kẖāṇā.
They eat the meat of the goats, killed after the Muslim prayers are read over them,


ਚਉਕੇ ਉਪਰਿ ਕਿਸੈ ਜਾਣਾ
चउके उपरि किसै न जाणा ॥
Cẖa*ukė upar kisai na jāṇā.
but they do not allow anyone else to enter their kitchen areas.


ਦੇ ਕੈ ਚਉਕਾ ਕਢੀ ਕਾਰ
दे कै चउका कढी कार ॥
Ḏė kai cẖa*ukā kadẖī kār.
They draw lines around them, plastering the ground with cow-dung.


ਉਪਰਿ ਆਇ ਬੈਠੇ ਕੂੜਿਆਰ
उपरि आइ बैठे कूड़िआर ॥
Upar ā*ė baiṯẖė kūṛi*ār.
The false come and sit within them.


ਮਤੁ ਭਿਟੈ ਵੇ ਮਤੁ ਭਿਟੈ
मतु भिटै वे मतु भिटै ॥
Maṯ bẖitai vė maṯ bẖitai.
They cry out, "Do not touch our food,


ਇਹੁ ਅੰਨੁ ਅਸਾਡਾ ਫਿਟੈ
इहु अंनु असाडा फिटै ॥
Ih ann asādā fitai.
this food of ours will be polluted!


ਤਨਿ ਫਿਟੈ ਫੇੜ ਕਰੇਨਿ
तनि फिटै फेड़ करेनि ॥
Ŧan fitai fėṛ karėn.
But with their polluted bodies, they commit evil deeds.


ਮਨਿ ਜੂਠੈ ਚੁਲੀ ਭਰੇਨਿ
मनि जूठै चुली भरेनि ॥
Man jūṯẖai cẖulī bẖarėn.
With filthy minds, they try to cleanse their mouths.


ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਚੁ ਧਿਆਈਐ
कहु नानक सचु धिआईऐ ॥
Kaho Nānak sacẖ ḏẖi*ā*ī*ai.
Says Nanak, meditate on the True Lord.


ਸੁਚਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਤਾ ਸਚੁ ਪਾਈਐ ॥੨॥
सुचि होवै ता सचु पाईऐ ॥२॥
Sucẖ hovai ṯā sacẖ pā*ī*ai. ||2||
If you are pure, you will obtain the True Lord. ||2||



Nothing to do with meat eating but the Brahimns who licked the boots of the Mughal masters. They would even perform animal sacrifice. Again a brilliant example of how to quote one line of a shabad and distort the shabads meeaning.

Key line's of shabad:

ਨੀਲ ਵਸਤ੍ਰ ਪਹਿਰਿ ਹੋਵਹਿ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ
नील वसत्र पहिरि होवहि परवाणु ॥
Nīl vasṯar pahir hoveh parvāṇ.
Wearing blue robes, they seek the approval of the Muslim rulers.


ਮਲੇਛ ਧਾਨੁ ਲੇ ਪੂਜਹਿ ਪੁਰਾਣੁ
मलेछ धानु ले पूजहि पुराणु ॥
Malėcẖẖ ḏẖān lė pūjeh purāṇ.
Accepting bread from the Muslim rulers, they still worship the Puraanas.


ਅਭਾਖਿਆ ਕਾ ਕੁਠਾ ਬਕਰਾ ਖਾਣਾ
अभाखिआ का कुठा बकरा खाणा ॥
Abẖākẖi*ā kā kuṯẖā bakrā kẖāṇā.
They eat the meat of the goats, killed after the Muslim prayers are read over them,


ਚਉਕੇ ਉਪਰਿ ਕਿਸੈ ਜਾਣਾ
चउके उपरि किसै न जाणा ॥
Cẖa*ukė upar kisai na jāṇā.
but they do not allow anyone else to enter their kitchen areas.
 

Randip Singh

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“Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false. You say that the One Lord is in all, so why do you kill chickens? ||1||”

3. Do not say that the Vedas are false, false are those who do not reflect. If in all is one god, then why does one kill the hen ? (SGGS p1350)
Again, let us put this into context:

bayd katayb kahhu mat jhoothay jhoothaa jo na bichaarai.
ja-o sabh meh ayk khudaa-ay kahat ha-o ta-o ki-o murgee maarai.
mulaaN kahhu ni-aa-o khudaa-ee.
tayray man kaa bharam na jaa-ee. rahaa-o.
pakar jee-o aani-aa dayh binaasee maatee ka-o bismil kee-aa.
jot saroop anaahat laagee kaho halaal ki-aa kee-aa.
ki-aa ujoo paak kee-aa muhu Dho-i-aa ki-aa maseet sir laa-i-aa.
ja-o dil meh kapat nivaaj gujaarahu ki-aa haj kaabai jaa-i-aa.
tooN naapaak paak nahee soojhi-aa tis kaa maram na jaani-aa.
kahi kabeer bhisat tay chookaa dojak si-o man maani-aa.

Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false.
You say that the One Lord is in all, so why do you kill chickens?
O Mullah, tell me: is this God's Justice?
The doubts of your mind have not been dispelled. Pause
You seize a living creature, and then bring it home and kill its body; you have killed only the clay.
The light of the soul passes into another form. So tell me, what have you killed?
And what good are your purifications? Why do you bother to wash your face? And why do you bother to bow your head in the mosque?
Your heart is full of hypocrisy; what good are your prayers or your pilgrimage to Mecca?
You are impure; you do not understand the Pure Lord. You do not know His Mystery.
Says Kabeer, you have missed out on paradise; your mind is set on hell.
Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji


First point to note is that halaal and bismil, does not mean kill but refers to a specific form of ritual slaughter. Put into context this is a comment on the Muslim sacrifice ritual where either a goat or a chicken is kept in the confines of the home and then ritually slaughtered as obeisance to Abraham. Kabeer is mocking the futility of this ritual and saying, that why are you doing this sacrifice just to emulate Gods asking of Abraham to kill his only son? It is a futile gesture that will not sway God. Abraham was sacrificing his son to God, however all the sacrifice in this instance has achieved is destruction of the outer shell of the chicken. The soul wont travel to God, but merely to another form. One can only understand this if one has a basic grasp of history. In this instance the person who tried to use this tukh as an anti-meat quotation was unaware of the Koranic context and had an extremely poor knowledge of Semitic history.

Again another example of one line quoting, shabad distotion and msitranslation of words in this case Halal and Bismil.
 

Randip Singh

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Ekmusafir Ji,

Since Randip Singh and others did not answer some of my questions, here is one for you:-

What constituted the diet of our 10 gurus in their lifetime ?

Akaal Sehai,

Santokh

We answered the questions you chose to ignore the answer. That is you perogative.

You tell us what the Guru's ate. Give us eye witness accounts from contemporaries.

Infact you have not explained the following var from Bhai Gudas:

An elephant’s flesh is not edible for he is full of pride, The lion is also full of pride of its strength so no one eats it either, Humble is the goat it gains honor in the here after and this world, In all celebrations is it [the meat], acknowledged, It [the meat], sanctifies religious gatherings and feasts, Its meat is ‘Pavitar’ [good/sacred] for the householder, From its entrails [tendons] is string for instruments made that when they play, attracts holy men in meditation From it’s skin are shoes made, which holy feet wear as they go to seek holy protection [to Guru]. With its skin are bound drums with which ‘Kirtan’ [religious songs], are sung, Hence, they [goat-skin bound drums] give great comfort. The holy gathering is coming into the Guru’s protection.’

(Bhai Gurdas Ji’s Varan, Bhai Gurdas, ‘Vaar 23, Pauri 13’)

If you unnderstand this you will also understand the one you quoted which allegedly looked down on eating meat.

Why does Bhai Gurdas (the Guru's contemporary) state meat to be sacred? Please explain.


PS
Spamming the forum with quotes the Ekh Musafir ji already lost the debate on is no solution to a constructive discusion.
 

Randip Singh

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Moral

The pains and pleasures one gets in this life are heavily influenced by past actions, not just in this life but in countless previous lives. When people suffer at the hands of others it's because they made that person suffer in a previous life. Most people will take revenge and so the cycle of making each other suffer continues life after life. A mythical story to explain this is of a goat and a butcher. The butcher would kill the goat in one life, the goat's soul would be reborn as a butcher and the butcher's soul would be reborn as a goat. In the next life the butcher would kill the goat and so the cycle continued. Then in one life the butcher received a customer who only wanted a goat's leg. The butcher thought if I kill the goat and sell the leg the rest of the goat will rot away. So what he thought was I'll just chop the goat's leg off and bandage the wound, that way the goat will stay alive until the next customer. Just as he was about to cut the leg, the goat spoke, "O Butcher, what's this new bad action you're starting? Life after life we keep swapping roles to cancel our actions, but if you chop my leg now and make me suffer in the next life I'll do the same to you and you'll suffer too!"

Please back this up with proof from Bani.

This sounds like a sermon!
 
well.... when in doubt bring in reason

stick your finger in your mouth and count two teeth down from your central incisors.... what do you reach?

answer:
your canines

designed by god or evolution (lets keep this open) to tear muscle tissues.

we are omnivorous for a reason... Sikhs usually advocate the "natural state of man" when it comes to perserving hair fibers on the dermal layers of the skin but then turn and do a complete 180 and advocate the unnatural practice of dietary exclusion because of taboo.

and then the religious right has the nerve to call our youth "confused"

now...if you wish to practice ahimsa by all means do so...but...your diet will give you absolutely no moral superiority over the person next to you. its simply a personal choice.


I read most of Randip Singh's post and I was impressed with the amount of research and well thought out arguments.

and i generally agree with Lion Child... this is a rather fruitless debate that was opened again by people with ill developed ideas or interpretations.

cheers
 

Astroboy

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well.... when in doubt bring in reason

stick your finger in your mouth and count two teeth down from your central incisors.... what do you reach?

answer:
your canines

designed by god or evolution (lets keep this open) to tear muscle tissues.

Those teeth are for eating raw flesh not cooked meat. I suppose there is no where in the Rehat Maryada that states that cannibalism is forbidden:-

http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Kauda_the_cannibal

On the contrary, Guru Nanak's sakhi has another moral phase to it.
Will you then choose wisely whom you want to follow ?
Your animal instincts or your Guru's guidance.
Need I say more ?
 

spnadmin

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Begum ji,

No, you are right. Rehat Maryada does not forbid cannibalism either. But there are those who find it hard to keep that instinct in check as well.

Māṇas kẖāṇė karahi nivāj.
The man-eaters say their prayers.

(from Randip ji's comments a few comments back) SGGS Ang 471

No telling how a thread will turn out or what twists and turns it will take. Nature of a forum.
 

Astroboy

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I'm through with this thread.
 
Jan 6, 2007
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Begum ji and Dr Khalsa ji

I'm through with this thread.

There are still some loyal servants of our Beloved Gurus in the world who can answer back. The victory will be os "SAT".

Here is a present for you and Dr Khalsa,

The best critics are those who themselves are failures in that field. During the life time of our Gurus members of their own families had enmity with Guru Nanak Dev ji’s panth. Considerable anti-panthic stories have been written by several writers who have used manmat to the nth degree.

Guru Nanak Dev ji say in Japji Sahib.

eyvfu aUcw hovY koie ] iqsu aUcy kau jwxY soie ]
The Hymns revealed through the first four Gurus were getting amalgamated and distorted by a few impostors. Guru Arjan had the ardent task to preserve the original treasure. In the second place he wanted to bestow the Panth with an ever-lasting guiding light, a physical and spiritual phenomenon. This is the reason why Aad Granth was written in a continuous prose. Our Gurus realised that their enemies were getting stronger day by day. Majority of them were from their very own families, Pandits who were were becoming the subject of embarrassement due to their weaknesses getting exposed and lastly the Hakumat of the time. Our Gurus did their best to preserve the jewel for the humanity sake. Alas they have departed physically from us but their enemies are still inflicting damage to date.
Lets us look at the true message that Bhagat Kabir ji . You will notice that the salokas begin with Mehla 5. i.e. they have been edited by by Guru Arjan Dev ji. Verse 232 as a contribution from Guru ji is a answer to a question.
kbIr swDU sMgu prwpqI iliKAw hoie illwt ] mukiq pdwrQu pweIAY Twk n AvGt Gwt ]231]
swDU sMgu prwpqI – obtained from the company of the saints
iliKAw hoie – if it is written
illwt – on the forhead
mukiq pdwrQu – gift of liberation / salvation
pweIAY – to receive, to attain
Twk – hinderance
AvGt Gwt– difficult journey (akin to that in a mountainous area)
Kabir says, one receives the gift if it is predestined (written on the forehead)
One recieves Salvation and all hindrances in this otherwise difficult journey are removed.
Q. How much time does one need to spend the sadhu ?
kbIr eyk GVI AwDI GrI AwDI hUM qy AwD ] Bgqn syqI gosty jo kIny so lwB ]232]
eyk GVI - Unit of time (we will assume here = 1 hour)
AwDI GrI - ½hour
AwDI hUM qy AwD ½ of ½hour i.e. ¼ hour
Kabir ji say, Say 1 hour, say ½ hour , ok lets say half of that half.
It almost appears that Kabir ji is observing the expression of the querist and adjusting the time accordingly and finally settles on 15 minutes.
Bgqn syqI – in the company of Saints
gosty – communication, dialogue, accompany
jo kIny – whoever does it
so lwB – gains the benefit
Whoever corresponds with the saint, will benefits.
kbIr BWg mwCulI surw pwin jo jo pRwnI KWih ] qIrQ brq nym kIey qy sBY rswqil jWih ]233]
BWg - hemp
mwCulI - fish
surw pwin - drinks wine / liquor
jo jo pRwnI – whom so ever
KWih - eats
qIrQ - pilgrimage
brq - fasting
nym - Naam
kIeyy - having done
sBY – all of them
rswqil jWih - goes to vain
Whosoever consumes hemp, eats fish, drinks liquor, The benefits of visiting pilgrimages, fastings undertaken, time spent in Naam simran, all of them go to vain.
In summary : In the first line Kabir ji tells us that Salvation is a predestined commodity and is bestowed on those who spend time in the company of saints. In the secon line Kabir ji tells us that even a very small unit of time is spent is beneficial. In the last vers Kabir ji is saying that those people who whilst doing the above also consumes hemp, eats fish, drinks liquor, they befits they have accrued in visiting pilgrimages, fastings undertaken, time spent in Naam simran, all of them go to vain.
Now why did Kabir ji pick on hemp, eats fish, drinks liquor. Hemp is a drug. The one who consumes it will loose his mind/his ability to reason. Fish is an aphriodisiac (invites kam). Liquor is again an intoxicant. When any of these elements are mixed who are bound to indulge in bad karma.
Now let us compare the above three verses with those of our Forum Lead Randip Singh Esquire
Now putting this in its entire context what Bhagat Kabir is actually criticising in the rich and those in power. The thrill seekers, who are addicted to their senses and those addicted to the 5 thieves. Kabir was born around the area of Benares, and was brought up in a poor Muslim weavers family. He saw the excesses of the rich around him, while the poor starved. Foods like fish and wine were associated with the rich who had an excessive disposable income. Marijuana was associated with either idol people or those who had time and money to waste. Kabir abhorred this, and this statement is a social comment about the excesses of the rich. At the end he clearly states, that those people who do their duties as householders (i.e. work hard, care for other etc) are the ones who will be liberated, and those who live by excesses will suffer. One cantherefore clearly see that this is in no way a comment about eating meat (because of mistranslation) or about avoiding certain foods (as has been misrepresented).

Now I cannot help doing :u)::wah::up:. Please feel free to join me if you wish.

This is the intelligence of our present leaders. Guru ji quite aptly said

“Koor phirey pardhaan ve Laalo”

Sharam Hovege Tuhanu te you will quit.:down:

And Begum ji I can now state this now as an answer to your question that Our beloved Gurus were Vegetarians. All Ten of them.

Now who is misleading whom. Can we accept anything that Randip Singh and KDS say, can we accept as GOSPEL. I do not and the rest of you are wise enough to make their own judgements. Wise people only need to be given a hint and they will understand.
I wonder how much Hemp these guys consume. ¼ killo ?, 1/2 killo ? or was it 1 Killo?

Randip Singh and KDS – I can tear your Essay into pieces but do not wish to waste my valuable time. It will have no effect on your Conscience. All I can say is Wisen up, Cast your EGO and become students of Guru ji. Do some Naam Simran. Tusi kis janam da badla Guru Sahibaan ton Le rehe ho? OMG I just feel sorry for both of you.

Ekmusafir_ajnabi :hmm:
 
Those teeth are for eating raw flesh not cooked meat. I suppose there is no where in the Rehat Maryada that states that cannibalism is forbidden:-

http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Kauda_the_cannibal

On the contrary, Guru Nanak's sakhi has another moral phase to it.
Will you then choose wisely whom you want to follow ?
Your animal instincts or your Guru's guidance.
Need I say more ?


actually if youve ever eaten cooked meat you'll understand how useful your canines are.

plus you just cherry picked my argument when the main point was:

we are omnivorous for a reason... Sikhs usually advocate the "natural state of man" when it comes to perserving hair fibers on the dermal layers of the skin but then turn and do a complete 180 and advocate the unnatural practice of dietary exclusion because of taboo.


and food taboo's are not stated in gurbani anywhere

sakhi does not equal gurbani...sakhi's are works of fiction that are told as bedtime stories to children
 

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