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Eternal life and Sikhism

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by Harry Haller, Aug 2, 2012.

  1. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    Gurfateh, On a post the other day, I wrote something to the effect that the path of the flesh leads to death, while the path of God leads to eternal life. Later that night I was musing about the concept of eternal life, and how it fitted in with my thoughts regarding death as being basically the end.

    eternal-life.jpg

    My new improved thoughts are that if you can find a connection with Creator whilst still alive, not just a temporary one, but one where the veil of Maya is torn aside ,fluttering in tatters, destroyed, so you can see what you were always intended to see.


    That connection, like having new eyes, new ears, new perception, like being reborn and living in the lap of Creator, with no way back to Maya.

    I think once this connection is established, you never lose it, even through death, how, I cannot explain, but I think once you emulate Creator as much as you can, and you truly understand not only yourself, but your place in the world, then everything else is irrelevant.

    Comments welcome
     
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    #1 Harry Haller, Aug 2, 2012
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  3. Archived_member15

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    A very interesting post bother Harry ji mundahug

    Eternity is not infinite future time. Rather it is a state beyond place and time - where we exist, as does God, in the Eternal Now. It is accessed on earth through the present moment. Eternity is here.

    In the second volume of Jesus of Nazareth Pope Benedict XVI emphasizes that eternal life is not something that awaits us after death, but is a reality that begins in this world: “‘Eternal life’ is life itself, real life, which can also be lived in the present age and is no longer challenged by physical death. This is the point: to seize ‘life’ here and now, real life that can no longer be destroyed by anything or anyone...Man has found life when he adheres to him who is himself Life. Then much that pertains to him can be destroyed. Death may remove him from the biosphere, but the life that reaches beyond it – real life – remains. This life...is man’s goal. The relationship to God is the source of a life that no death can take away...the early Christians called themselves simply ‘the living.’ They had found what all are seeking – life itself, full and, hence, indestructible life...If we are in relation with him who does not die, who is Life itself and Love itself, then we are in life. Then we ‘live...


    "...Do you know what eternal life is? You think it's everlasting life. But your own theologians will tell you that that is crazy, because everlasting is still within time. It is time perduring forever. Eternal means timeless — no time. The human mind cannot understand that. The human mind can understand time and can deny time. What is timeless is beyond our comprehension. Yet the mystics tell us that eternity is right now..."

    - Anthony de Mello (1931 - 1987), Jesuit priest and mystic



    "...When we unite ourselves to God by love, then we are spirit: but when we are caught up and transformed by His Spirit, then we are led into fruition. And the spirit of God Himself breathes us out from Himself that we may love, and may do good works; and again he draws us into Himself, that we may rest in fruition. This is eternal life; even as our mortal life subsists in the indrawing and outgoing of our breath. What I mean is: we move inwardly in a mystical enjoyment and move outwardly in good works, both in communion with God. Just as we open our eyes, look and then close them again, in such a smooth transition that we hardly notice what we are doing, so we die in God and live out of God, always remaining united to him...This essential unity of our spirit with God does not exist in itself. It rests in God, and flows from God, and hangs in God, and returns to God as its eternal source...Our essential and highest individuality lies in God. For all creatures exist and live and are preserved by being united to God. If they were to be separated from God, they would return to nothingness. We possess this divine individuality in ourselves, yet beyond ourselves, as the beginning and support of our existence and our life...In God is neither time nor place, before nor after possessing nor desiring, giving nor taking, vices nor virtues, nor visible love, lightness nor heaviness, night nor day, nor anything else that could be put into words..."

    - Blessed Jan Van Ruysbroeck (1294-1381), Catholic mystic and Flemish priest



    We continue to be in such communion with God for all timeless eternity - in-flowing and out-flowing from his divine energies in one eternal act of love, I think, like a great cosmic heart-beat.
     
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  4. Embers

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    I agree with Vouthon Ji that this is an interesting topic.

    My view is that there is a connection which can see past the maya. Once known it can be rekindled or revoked, however the mind can lure one back into maya and become blinded by Kam (lust), Krodh (rage), Lobh (greed), Moh (attachment) and Ahankar (ego). However even these do not bind one whereas before lust and rage felt real and important and real, once the connection is known these are passing stages of the mind and are known to be maya's work.

    Page 18, Line 15
    ਕਿਉ ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਤ੍ਰਿਕੁਟੀ ਛੁਟਸੀ ਸਹਜਿ ਮਿਲਿਐ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਇ ॥
    किउ गुर बिनु त्रिकुटी छुटसी सहजि मिलिऐ सुखु होइ ॥
    Ki▫o gur bin ṯarikutī cẖẖutsī sahj mili▫ai sukẖ ho▫e.
    Without the Guru, how can anyone be released from these three qualities? Through intuitive wisdom, we meet with Him and find peace.
    Guru Nanak Dev
     
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  5. Ishna

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    I think, when most people consider eternal life, they're thinking of the eternal life of their ego, their manmukh self, the part which the rest of us know actually dies at death never to be seen again, just like the physical body.

    The Real Stuff we're made of is eternal because it is Creator. There is nothing but Creator - everything is within Creator. This is what continues on, in my humble opinion. When we lose our attachment to this temporary ego and condition and realise our existence in hukam, the interconnectedness of everything within God, our physical death becomes a natural transition, like a drop of water in an ocean going in and out with the tide. The 'eternal life' is not the continuation of our ego on the surface but the Naam within us.

    This is my understanding but I have nothing substantial to back it up with yet.

    I hope I make some kind of sense.
     
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  6. Embers

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    I agree, Ishna Ji.
    My opinion, at this stage, is that the ego itself does not die, but rather it is recognised for what it is; a mischievous thought. The ego continues to be a part of the sum, as everything is, within the Divine Creator. However as you say the attachment weakens and with it an increase in acceptance that anything which is born, will under go change and die, as per hukam. The creator appears to bestow acceptance on those who turn to Him.

    The reason I feel that the ego does not die is that there is nothing 'outside' of the Creator, and hence all coming and going are simply views or ways to express 'change'. So I feel there is a profound and continuous 'change' in the being who comes to recognise that all (including the ego) must give way to Hukam and our Naam(as you say).

    Of course this is only my impression at this time, some literature gives me the idea that the ego can go for good, which is perhaps a whole new topic in itself.

    I enjoyed your post! Thanks.
     
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  7. Ishna

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    Ambers bhaji

    Good point, I didn't think of that! More to ponder... gingerteakaur Thankyou
     
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  8. Embers

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    Having just done some searches, unfortuantely I cannot back that up, as least from the English versions, in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

    Page 21, Line 3
    ਅਨਹਦ ਬਾਣੀ ਪਾਈਐ ਤਹ ਹਉਮੈ ਹੋਇ ਬਿਨਾਸੁ ॥
    अनहद बाणी पाईऐ तह हउमै होइ बिनासु ॥
    Anhaḏ baṇī pā▫ī▫ai ṯah ha▫umai ho▫e binās.
    The Unstruck Melody of Gurbani is obtained, and egotism is eliminated.
    Guru Nanak Dev

    Page 28, Line 18
    ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਸਉਪੇ ਆਗੈ ਧਰੇ ਹਉਮੈ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਮਾਰਿ ॥
    मनु तनु सउपे आगै धरे हउमै विचहु मारि ॥
    Man ṯan sa▫upe āgai ḏẖare ha▫umai vicẖahu mār.
    Placing mind and body in offering before the Lord, they conquer and eradicate egotism from within.
    Guru Amar Das

    Page 65, Line 6
    ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਸੇਵਿਐ ਸਹਜੁ ਊਪਜੈ ਹਉਮੈ ਤ੍ਰਿਸਨਾ ਮਾਰਿ ॥
    सतिगुरु सेविऐ सहजु ऊपजै हउमै त्रिसना मारि ॥
    Saṯgur sevi▫ai sahj ūpjai ha▫umai ṯarisnā mār.
    Serving the True Guru, intuitive peace wells up, and ego and desire die.
    Guru Amar Das


    The reason which lead me to hold the view that the ego does not die is that the Creator created it:

    Page 139, Line 6
    ਹਉਮੈ ਗਰਬੁ ਉਪਾਇ ਕੈ ਲੋਭੁ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਜੰਤਾ ਪਾਇਆ ॥
    हउमै गरबु उपाइ कै लोभु अंतरि जंता पाइआ ॥
    Ha▫umai garab upā▫e kai lobẖ anṯar janṯā pā▫i▫ā.
    You created egotism and arrogant pride, and You placed greed within our beings.
    Guru Nanak Dev
     
  9. Archived_member15

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    Perhaps I could help out here kaurhug

    Through Blessed Juliana (ca. 1342 – ca. 1416) I learned about the distinction in Catholic mystical theology between what she calls the sensuality and substance within man - which corresponds roughly to the surface personality we wrongly identify as "me" and the deeper, genuine reality.

    According to Juliana the soul has two aspects substance and sensuality - generally translated as 'essential being' and 'sensory being' or as higher nature and lower nature. Both were created by God. As she explains in Chapter 37 of Showings, "...in every soul there is a godly will which never consented to selfishness and never shall; just as there is an animal will in our lower nature...".

    The substance is the Ground that is directed towards and lifts itself up to God at all times; as distinct from the self (the sensuality) which is our ordinary physical and psychological life.

    Our essential reality, our substance, our Ground is eternally united with God though we are not always aware of it. Our sensuality is different, indeed it is very far from always being united with God. Of the Ground/substance she writes:

    "...It is a lofty understanding inwardly to see and to know that God, who is our maker, dwells in our soul, and it is a still loftier and greater understanding inwardly to see and to know that our soul, which is created, dwells in God's substance. From this substance we are what we are, by God.
    I saw no difference between God and our substance, but saw it as if it were all God." (pages 179-180)


    There is no discernable difference between this deepest part our reality, the Ground or substance of our soul and God. Thus Meister Eckhart could say:


    "...The eye with which I see God is the same with which God sees me. My eye and God's eye are one eye, and one sight, and one knowledge, and one love. Your human nature and that of the divine Word are no different. To guage the soul we must guage it with God, for the Ground of God and the Ground of the Soul are one and the same. The knower and the known are one. Simple people imagine that they should see God, as if He stood there and they here. This is not so. God and I, we are one in knowledge.
    You must love God as not-God, not-Spirit, not-person, not-image, but as He is - sheer, pure absolute Oneness, without any duality, sundered from all twoness, and in whom we must eternally sink from nothingness to nothingness. Separate yourself from all twoness. Be one in one, one with one, one from one. When is a man in mere understanding? When a man sees one thing separated from another. And when is a man above mere understanding? When a man sees All in all, then a man stands beyond mere understanding...”

    <!-- google_ad_section_end -->- Meister Eckhart (c. 1260 – c. 1327), Catholic Mystic & priest


    The sad truth is that most people identify themselves with their "thoughts" and surface personalities and are not aware of their innate Ground. They think that their thoughts, emotions, roles etc. are "them".

    The ego/sensuality/sensory being matures as we develop and can become misdirected and obscured. Our essential being, our substance, is eternally united with God from whom it flows forth, though we are not always aware of it. Our sensuality is different. When our sensuality - the 'Me' - is not focused on God as the centre of our lives, then we are broken and fragmented because the higher self and the lower self are out of tune with each other. The task of spirituality is the reunifiction of our sensuality (our 'me') with our substance so that we can become whole again in God.

    Do you know the word "salvation"? It comes from the Koine Greek word sozo which means "to make whole again". peacesign A lot of Christians don't understand this because they read the Bible in English translations and do not know the meaning of the original words.

    So in brief: Our essential being is always united with God, no matter how we feel or what we are concious of or what we do, it is the essential Ground of our Being which constitutes our deepest reality, flowing from Being Itself, and no matter what we do it is always still what is.

    But our sensuality can be directed elsewhere, as it often is, away from God. This fragmentation must be healed. Our sensuality (Our "me") is focused away from God and fragmented from our substance and so we are divided against ourselves. As Jesus said a kingdom divided against itself will fall, ultimately.

    We are created with a natural, in-built orientation to God in our inmost self, and are at odds with ourselves until this orientation is made the focus of our whole life, integrating our sensuality with our substance, which is always united with God.

    Read:


    "...Very few in Western society in our time would deny that we are individually and collectively fragmented. That is obvious enough from the mess and muddle of our lives and the society around us. Juliana would say the root of all this is that we are quite literally heart-broken. Our heart, our being, is split in two by the division between our substance and our sensuality. Human wholeness can never be achieved until this brokeness is healed. Our substance is always united to God; but our sensuality all too easily focuses on other things, most obviously on ourselves. We may call this sin, or brokeness or soul-sickness, or alienation; but whatever term we use, there is a fracture at the centre of our Personhood, the deep wound which divides us from ourselves and makes us hurting and hurtful people, spreading pain like an infectious disease in which everyone contaminates everyone else...Turning from God is turning from our deepest self. Because our substance is essentially united with God whether we know it or not, and because that is constitutive of our being human at all, the denial of God in our lives actually is the denial of our deepest reality. Juliana goes so far as to say that a person who persists in this denial ultimately annihilates himself or herself..."

    - Grace Jantzen, Julian of Norwich: Mystic and Theologian<!-- google_ad_section_end -->


    The goal is not to destroy our ego or sensuality - ordinary psychological life which we wrongly assume to be our "self" or "me" - indeed that would not only be impossible but also not desirable, since it is natural to us and created by God.

    Rather the goal is to subject the ego to the Ground of the soul, the Image of God in us, so as to become whole again.

    We take refuge in our thoughts, fantasies and emotions because they provide us with a deceptive sense of security and self-sufficiency. But Christ tells us to abandon that security and make ourselves vulnerable, relying wholly on our Creator. Both Christ and Lao Tzu, the founder of Taoism (a Chinese religion), likened this state of self-abandonment to the will of God in the present moment to the mind of a little child who has not yet developed a mature ego.... "Become as little children," they said.

    A child is much more in synch with the true Origin of knowing than is an adult. Simple and spontaneous, the little child knows without knowing how he knows. He can be happy without knowing he is happy. Isn't that beautiful and wondrous? He just IS. What adults often consider joy or contentment is in truth the emotional excitement of their ego; while a little child's happiness consists in the simple, selfless joy of being alive.

    Little children have a perfectly unified substance/sensuality. Their ego is completely subjected to their Ground.

    When Christ told each person to "deny himself" and "lose his life," he was not suggesting that one obliterate the conscious mind, thereby denying our unique Personhood as some New Agey type people seem to want to do. Thinking, imagining, dreaming and emotion are not destroyed when we tame our ego, rather they are wholly submitted to the higher Will of God in the Ground of our soul.

    When we die our ego will most likely dissappear, since it is physical, sensory and thus located in the brain (which none of us can take with us) leaving only the Ground/substance/essential being/higher nature which is one with God. I presume that this will be the case. That does not mean that our unique personhood ceases to exist but it will be a much deeper "I" than the ego and we will be aware of our true reality on a much higher level not constrained by temporal time or place.

    However the Ground can be covered and tarnished by the residue of our wandering ego, leaving the remnants of our consciousness scarred when we die.

    I get nonetheless why you do not believe that the ego/sensuality will die, however it is sensory and brain-located, conditioned since it is influenced and shaped by outside, exterior things, people and events whereas the Ground is unconditioned and at all times immobile and unaffected in its traquility by any outside conditions. Since all that can be conditioned is impermanent, finite and must change it cannot be equated with God who is unchangeable and Unconditioned, beyond time and place, who has no emotions or conflicting thoughts since these denote the ability to change. What are your thoughts?
     
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  10. Embers

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    I like your post, Vouthon Ji, it offers a lot to consider and helps wonderfully with the dilema of Creator and ego.

    Just to pick up on one part of what you wrote:

    The bold is my understanding also. Firstly because the ego does not exist as a thing in itself. The ego is illusion, maya because there is no such individual thing that can be pin pointed as My Ego or your ego. None the less ego is acknowledge by Saint and sinner. In my opinion ego is a thought process, based on memories and imagination. Hence the ego can be known as thought. However thought itself is like a reflection. In the example of a child who need not know it is happy, that child has no use of the reflection, it just is.

    So the end of 'Ego' is when we let go of memory and imagination that there is a silent awareness, full of what is here now, be it the songs of birds or the hum of computers or motorcars. It is full awareness.

    This awareness is the soul and consequently it is eternal and as Harry Ji wrote:
    Harry Ji is correct in my opinion too. There is no way back to Maya because the soul was, and will never be affected by Maya, Maya operates on the mind, on thought and consequently through the ego.

    Page 117, Line 3
    ਤ੍ਰਿਬਿਧਿ ਮਨਸਾ ਤ੍ਰਿਬਿਧਿ ਮਾਇਆ ॥
    त्रिबिधि मनसा त्रिबिधि माइआ ॥
    Ŧaribaḏẖ mansā ṯaribaḏẖ mā▫i▫ā.
    The mind is bound by the three dispositions-the three modes of Maya.
    Guru Amar Das

    Page 21, Line 9
    ਮਨ ਰੇ ਹਉਮੈ ਛੋਡਿ ਗੁਮਾਨੁ ॥
    मन रे हउमै छोडि गुमानु ॥
    Man re ha▫umai cẖẖod gumān.
    O mind, renounce your egotistical pride.
    Guru Nanak Dev

    Sat Siri Akaal
     
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  11. Archived_member15

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    My dear brother/sister Ambers kaurhug

    A wonderful post, thank you very much.

    I very much like your understanding of ego as illusionary and thought as a reflection.

    You might like Angelus Silesius when he wrote:



    My understanding from the mystics is that all conditioned things change and are impermanent. Thus the brain, and the sense of self/sensuality which is the offspring of the mind's thought process, has no actual coherent, single identity. What we consider to be "myself" is actually a series of different and conflicting "selves" which are conditioned by outside influences, memories and emotions. However the human being has a deeper aspect to him that is not conditioned, that is free of all thought, emotion and which is perfectly tranquil at all times and in all places. Because it is not conditioned, it is eternal and cannot die like our sensory appetites which change all the time and rove around and have no true reality as you so rightly say.

    The goal of life is to realize the existence of this Ground and enter into it. The Ground is the deepest reality of every human person. It is the Image of God in man. Beneath our surface personalities, which differ according to our natural aptitudes, life experiences, thoughts, emotions and other conditions - our Ground is one, as Blessed Jan Van Ruysbroeck explained:


    "...The image of God is found essentially and personally in all mankind. Each possesses it whole, entire and undivided, and all together not more than one alone. In this way we are all one, intimately united in our eternal image, which is the image of God and the source in us of all our life. Our created essence and our life are attached to it without mediation as to their eternal cause..."

    - Blessed John Ruysbroeck (1294-1381)



    However a note of caution here: we have had in the past a heresy called Quietism where Catholics have entered their Ground but didn't come back out again - they stayed below the surface and didn't "pop" back up so as to share their experiences with other people so as to help them reach their Ground. We consider this to be just as bad as people who never enter the Ground and are caught up in attachments and the illusionary sensory being.

    The ultimate goal is to "remain within, while going without" - which means that we remain eternally below the surface personality in our Ground but also go back out into multiplicity and share our experiences with others.

    That is actually what Ruysbroeck (a thirteenth century mystic) explained in my first post on this thread. Its like breathing in and out. He wrote in my quote above:

    "...the spirit of God Himself breathes us out from Himself that we may love, and may do good works; and again he draws us into Himself, that we may rest in fruition. This is eternal life; even as our mortal life subsists in the indrawing and outgoing of our breath. What I mean is: we move inwardly in a mystical enjoyment and move outwardly in good works, both in communion with God. Just as we open our eyes, look and then close them again, in such a smooth transition that we hardly notice what we are doing, so we die in God and live out of God, always remaining united to him..."

    So its never a case of simply remaining within - we retreat within so as to come back out again into good works and love of our fellow creatures.

    The modern Catholic theologian Dom Cyrprian Smith of the Benedictine Order, commenting on the thought of Meister Eckhart (a famous Catholic mystic who first used the term "Ground"), explained the difference between Ground and ego well when he wrote:


    "...I am not who I think I am, and 'You' are not who you think 'You' are. What we call 'I' and 'You' is indeed a projection, and if we go far enough in withdrawing the projections and in piercing the veils, we shall reach a point at which there is no longer any 'I' or 'You'. We shall reach a point at which we realize that our true self has nothing to do with 'function'...a lawyer, a chimney-sweep, a doctor, a dustman, a priest...These are only functions, things we do; they are not us...These roles and functions are real projections...they give us a sense of security, a sense of identity and belonging. They prevent us from glimpsing the awful void and emptiness within ourselves: they make us feel solid, needed, valued and permanent...But it is not only our external, social personalities that are a tissue of projections and illusions. The same is true of much of our inner, private world, which we may well be tempted to regard as our 'self'...We are not our social functions or roles; but neither are we our private thoughts or emotions...If we watch our emotions and thoughts long enough, we may eventually become aware of something which is not not these emotions or thoughts...There is something within me which is at all times perfectly detached, tranquil and serene. It is never excited about anything, never downcast or depressed by anything. It is like a deep, perhaps, bottomless lake; my various thoughts and emotions are like ripples or waves upon the surface. But below the surface, in the depths, there are no ripples; everything is still...We are a different 'self' depending on the moods or activities of the moment...There is nothing to give any unity or continiuity to my identity...I am not one self but a sequence of different or even conflicting selves...We are not real, unified 'selves', we are not capable of true action, until we learn to enter the Ground...It transcends place and time. Anyone who enters the Ground no longer cares about the past or the future: he is aware only of the present moment, and the present moment is shot through with Divine Light, because it is in the present, and in the present alone, that the world of time touches the world of eternity. Standing within this impregnable citadel, we are troubled neither by the thought of our past experiences nor of possible troubles and preoccupations still to come..."

    - Cyrprian Smith OSB, Catholic theologian and mystic


    God Bless and keep you my good and wise friend! :mundabhangra:
     
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  12. Ishna

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    Apologies Ambersji, I assumed you were a bhaji but indeed you're keeping that info to yourself! My bad.

    I will paste a link to a really good thread about ego, where our SPNadmin (currently on sabbatical!) pointed out to me that although the word haumai is usually translated into English as 'ego', it is in fact a compound word meaning me/you and if you read this word as meaning 'separation' (from God) it can make more sense - the aim then is not to destroy ego (which Vouthon bhaji rightly said would be impossible and it is part of this human being in hukam), but to destroy the sense of separation from God which creates a false ego/Maya entrapment.

    I will post the link asap.
     
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  13. Ishna

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  14. Luckysingh

    Luckysingh Canada
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    A very nice post Harryji.
    You are certainly getting wiser by the day and I seem to find your posts are getting more deeper and spirirual. This is fantastic as I totally agree with what you think and conclude.

    Yes, this connection is for eternity and it is beyond death.
    We know that after death there is nothing, all is left behind. Nothing remains with us to continue, except- this connection!
    It is the only thing that stays for eternity.
    This is one of the resons why I think that we have such a thing called ''soul'' - as there has to be somthiing that differentiates us and our personal connection to the 'ONE'

    I assume that it is this entity that some of us call soul, and this is what carries the eternal connection.

    WHY- exactly do I think that??
    -Because otherwise we would look no different to each other, there has to be a better reason why we are all different, different DNA that gives us all our own characteristics that makes me, me and You, you.
    These differences must be in line with differences in our soul or differences in the God within or the God qualities that exist within, just like the many forms of creation around the world all from ONE creator. Every single or very small microscopic piece from creation still has something that gives it it's individuality.
    In a similar manner, the inner God qualities or parts of the soul are unique for all of us.
     
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  15. Ishna

    Ishna
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    Luckysinghji, how do you reach this conclusion? This is fundamentally different to my understanding, that Ik Onkar is One and unchanging, so if the soul / divine spark / dare we say 'jyot' within is God, the my jyot would have to be identical to your jyot? I think I've reached the limit of my logical contemplation!
     
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  16. Kanwaljit Singh

    Kanwaljit Singh India
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    I think it's like we all have the same DNA. But due to mutation, the cancerous genes of duality and attachemnt-to-maya have been activated.
     
  17. Luckysingh

    Luckysingh Canada
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    This is not a conclusion as such, but just a slight touch in understanding that there must be something within us that can connect and either this connection exists for eternity or maybe this part becomes one with the creator and in effect exists for eternity as explained by others.
    -The DNA mention is just a slight brush of an example, and is not to be taken literally. It was just to help understanding!

    I was explaining that an such an entity is within us if that's what you want to call the soul.
    I'm not too sure how it can be fundamentally too different from your understanding.- Remember we also have differeing concepts for naam and jyot, which have been discussed briefly in other threads.

    As I said, I have not given any conclusion above as I have never penned it all together!!
    I do have a conclusion though, it combines all the differing concepts together in order to see a better picture, close to being a complete picture in my opinion, although no one will ever have the complete picture.

    We should all think and try and forward our own understandings, to see if we can learn and better from each other. In my opinion, disagreeing with each other won't really help in any way as we should keep our options open to change where possible.
     
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  18. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    I think we do have a common Jyot, it stands for all the love inside us, the ultimate truth. If indeed we behaved, acted, thought and spoke the ultimate truth, we probably all would be the same. Indeed, some could say the Gurus were all similar, in outlook, action, thought.

    One therefore has to conclude, as has been intimated above, that it is ego/me that not only defines us, but holds us back from being enlightened folks.

    Interestingly, the SGGS has the following to say about personality

    ਪਾਰਸਿ ਪਰਸਿਐ ਪਾਰਸੁ ਹੋਇ ਜੋਤੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥ पारसि परसिऐ पारसु होइ जोती जोति समाइ ॥ Pāras parsi▫ai pāras ho▫e joṯī joṯ samā▫e. By personally experiencing the Personality of the Guru, one's own personality is uplifted, and one's light merges into the Light.

    ਜਿਸੁ ਭੇਟੀਐ ਸਫਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਕਰੈ ਸਦਾ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦਿ ਕੋਊ ਨੇਤ੍ਰਹੁ ਪੇਖੈ ॥੬॥ जिसु भेटीऐ सफल मूरति करै सदा कीरति गुर परसादि कोऊ नेत्रहु पेखै ॥६॥ Jis bẖetī▫ai safal mūraṯ karai saḏā kīraṯ gur parsāḏ ko▫ū neṯarahu pekẖai. ||6|| He, who meets, with the accredited personality of the Guru, ever sings the Lord praise. By Guru's grace, some rare one sees the Lord with his eyes.

    Personality, the very fabric of who we are, our wants, our desires, needs, clearly is what defines us, logically, as long as we have a personality, we can never experience the true 'jyot' as Sisji put it. Can we call what the Gurus had personality? or is a better description that they had no personality, they were just true, and had love for all. On that basis, it would appear it is our personalities that are holding us back!
     
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  19. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    Kanwaljitji,

    I think it is a simple question of being Gurmukh or manmukh. To say that some are manmukh because of mutation intimates that they have no control over how they live their life, when we all have full control, just no discipline or far sightedness. The cancer is ourselves dear Kanwaljitji, no?
     
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    #18 Harry Haller, Aug 3, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2012
  20. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    Sisji

    I think you are both correct. The jyot, soul, divine spark, I believe is the truth. The ultimate truth. However just as Gold is more valuable depending on its purity, so we behave and have personalities depending on our purity. Maybe it is these impurities, that combined with whatever trace of truth we have in us, that is the sum of our personality. I think if we shed these impurities and embraced the truth, and the truth alone, we would all be similar.
     
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  21. Ishna

    Ishna
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    Luckyji, I didn't mean to be argumentative or disagreeable, my question was of curiosity so we can, as you say, learn and better from each other. kudihug
     
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