Sikhi Does Waheguru Intervene?

[Sherdil]

While Universe is part of or a reflection of Creator the Creator is not limited by what we term the Universe but surpasses that. Creation is the creator but creator is not merely creation...

No disagreement.

Consciousness is a part of the Universe, but remains distinct.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

No disagreement.

Consciousness is a part of the Universe, but remains distinct.

Or is the Universe a part of Consciousness??

 

[Ambarsaria]

Sherdil ji and Harkiran Kaur ji I disagree with both of you but I cannot prove why! I do not believe you can prove you are right either or explain why!

When we talk the infinite it is impossible to be definite as you both seem to be! We are such an insignificant speck of dust but with such a big ego or conception of ourselves that nothing out there that we cannot explain! Exact warning that SGGS tells us not to be, at least the way I understand SGGS.

This is not to offend you at all but as fellow spner little direct talk to learn and share.

Paurhi from Panna 5:

ਪਾਤਾਲਾ ਪਾਤਾਲ ਲਖ ਆਗਾਸਾ ਆਗਾਸ ॥
पाताला पाताल लख आगासा आगास ॥
Pāṯālā pāṯāl lakẖ āgāsā āgās.
There are nether worlds beneath nether worlds, and hundreds of thousands of heavenly worlds above.

ਪਾਤਾਲਾ ਪਾਤਾਲ = ਪਾਤਾਲਾਂ ਦੇ ਹੇਠ ਹੋਰ ਪਾਤਾਲ ਹਨ। ਆਗਾਸਾ ਆਗਾਸ = ਆਕਾਸ਼ਾਂ ਦੇ ਉੱਤੇ ਹੋਰ ਆਕਾਸ਼ ਹਨ।
(ਸਾਰੇ ਵੇਦ ਇੱਕ-ਜ਼ਬਾਨ ਹੋ ਕੇ ਆਖਦੇ ਹਨ) "ਪਾਤਾਲਾਂ ਦੇ ਹੇਠ ਹੋਰ ਲੱਖਾਂ ਪਾਤਾਲ ਹਨ ਅਤੇ ਆਕਾਸ਼ਾਂ ਦੇ ਉੱਤੇ ਹੋਰ ਲੱਖਾਂ ਆਕਾਸ਼ ਹਨ,

ਓੜਕ ਓੜਕ ਭਾਲਿ ਥਕੇ ਵੇਦ ਕਹਨਿ ਇਕ ਵਾਤ ॥
ओड़क ओड़क भालि थके वेद कहनि इक वात ॥
Oṛak oṛak bẖāl thake veḏ kahan ik vāṯ.
The Vedas say that you can search and search for them all, until you grow weary.

ਓੜਕ = ਅਖ਼ੀਰ, ਅੰਤ, ਅਖ਼ੀਰਲੇ ਬੰਨੇ। ਭਾਲਿ ਥਕੇ = ਭਾਲ ਭਾਲ ਕੇ ਥੱਕ ਗਏ ਹਨ। ਕਹਨਿ = ਆਖਦੇ ਹਨ। ਇਕ ਵਾਤ = ਇਕ ਗੱਲ, ਇਕ-ਜ਼ਬਾਨ ਹੋ ਕੇ।
(ਬੇਅੰਤ ਰਿਸ਼ੀ ਮੁਨੀ ਇਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ) ਅਖ਼ੀਰਲੇ ਬੰਨਿਆਂ ਦੀ ਭਾਲ ਕਰਕੇ ਥੱਕ ਗਏ ਹਨ, (ਪਰ ਲੱਭ ਨਹੀਂ ਸਕੇ)"।

ਸਹਸ ਅਠਾਰਹ ਕਹਨਿ ਕਤੇਬਾ ਅਸੁਲੂ ਇਕੁ ਧਾਤੁ ॥
सहस अठारह कहनि कतेबा असुलू इकु धातु ॥
Sahas aṯẖārah kahan kaṯebā asulū ik ḏẖāṯ.
The scriptures say that there are 18,000 worlds, but in reality, there is only One Universe.

ਸਹਸ ਅਠਾਰਹ = ਅਠਾਰਾਂ ਹਜ਼ਾਰ (ਆਲਮ)। ਕਹਨਿ ਕਤੇਬਾ = ਕਤੇਬਾਂ ਆਖਦੀਆਂ ਹਨ। ਕਤੇਬਾ = ਈਸਾਈ ਮਤ ਤੇ ਇਸਲਾਮ ਆਦਿਕ ਦੀਆਂ ਚਾਰ ਕਿਤਾਬਾਂ: ਕੁਰਾਨ, ਅੰਜੀਲ, ਤੌਰੇਤ ਤੇ ਜ਼ੰਬੂਰ। ਅਸੁਲੂ = ਮੁੱਢ। (ਨੋਟ: ਇਹ ਅਰਬੀ ਬੋਲੀ ਦਾ ਲਫ਼ਜ਼ ਹੈ। ਅੱਖਰ 'ਸ' ਦਾ ਹੇਠਲਾ (ੁ) ਅਰਬੀ ਦਾ ਅੱਖ਼ਰ 'ਸੁਆਦ' ਦੱਸਣ ਵਾਸਤੇ ਹੈ)। ਇਕ ਧਾਤੁ = ਇੱਕ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ, ਇਕ ਪੈਦਾ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲਾ।
(ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨ ਤੇ ਈਸਾਈ ਆਦਿਕ ਦੀਆਂ ਚਾਰੇ) ਕਤੇਬਾਂ ਆਖਦੀਆਂ ਹਨ, "ਕੁੱਲ ਅਠਾਰਹ ਹਜ਼ਾਰ ਆਲਮ ਹਨ, ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਦਾ ਮੁੱਢ ਇਕ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਹੈ"। (ਪਰ ਸੱਚੀ ਗੱਲ ਤਾਂ ਇਹ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਸ਼ਬਦ) 'ਹਜ਼ਾਰਾਂ' ਤੇ 'ਲੱਖਾਂ' ਭੀ ਕੁਦਰਤ ਦੀ ਗਿਣਤੀ ਵਿਚ ਵਰਤੇ ਨਹੀਂ ਜਾ ਸਕਦੇ।

ਲੇਖਾ ਹੋਇ ਤ ਲਿਖੀਐ ਲੇਖੈ ਹੋਇ ਵਿਣਾਸੁ ॥
लेखा होइ त लिखीऐ लेखै होइ विणासु ॥
Lekẖā ho▫e ṯa likī▫ai lekẖai ho▫e viṇās.
If you try to write an account of this, you will surely finish yourself before you finish writing it.

ਲੇਖਾ ਹੋਇ = ਜੇ ਲੇਖਾ ਹੋ ਸਕੇ। ਲਿਖੀਐ = ਲਿਖ ਸਕੀਦਾ ਹੈ। ਲੇਖੈ ਵਿਣਾਸੁ = ਲੇਖੇ ਦਾ ਖ਼ਾਤਮਾ, ਲੇਖੇ ਦਾ ਅੰਤ।
ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਦੀ ਕੁਦਰਤ ਦਾ ਲੇਖਾ ਤਦੋਂ ਹੀ ਲਿੱਖ ਸਕੀਦਾ ਹੈ, ਜੇ ਲੇਖਾ ਹੋ ਸਕੇ। (ਇਹ ਲੇਖਾ ਤਾਂ ਹੋ ਹੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਸਕਦਾ, ਲੇਖਾ ਕਰਦਿਆਂ ਕਰਦਿਆਂ) ਲੇਖੇ ਦਾ ਹੀ ਖ਼ਾਤਮਾ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ (ਗਿਣਤੀ ਦੇ ਹਿੰਦਸੇ ਹੀ ਮੁੱਕ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ)।

Sat SriAkal.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

Ambarsaria Ji, My understanding of consciousness comes from Quantum physics which shows us that matter arises from consciousness, or rather a conscious observer... else it remains as a wave function. The act of observing collapses the quantum wave function and causes electrons, photons etc to behave as particles instead of waves (a wave itself is not anything tangible but only energy passing through a medium). So that's why I say consciousness is the base of the Universe and not matter. Since consciousness is formless and aware, and ALL else arises from it, it stands to reason that we are "glimpsing" our Creator... at least in some sense from the confines of understanding from our physical reality perspective... I don't profess to know anything beyond that. Obviously from our perspective, we can only understand using references from what we already know... the physical world we see perceive as solid. So while we can understand how form can arise *literally* from formless... and it gives us a reference point to at least contemplate existence... it's not the total sum of existence. Creation we are told in Gurbani is born of the light (God) and the light (God) is in the Creation... but the Light is not limited by the limits of the Creation, as Creator exists beyond it and is much more than it... (while the creation is confined to limits within the Creator) and this we can never experience until we attain liberation.

 

[Ambarsaria]

Harkiran Kaur ji I like your posts and I believe you are very learned. I have no issues with what you say above. The only caveat I will put on it is to say "this is my current understanding and is subject to change without notice". I inherently have the same caveat on all my posts.

The definite is a very dangerous tool or approach to try to understand or state or talk about the virtually infinite.

Sat Sri Akal and thanks for sharing your detailed writings and thoughts. I know you love quantum theory and I myself have learned something about it through your posts. Very fascinating.

PS: Analogies are wonderful; just musing to say: "Am I walking the dog or the dog walking me!"

 

[Sherdil]

I don't think consciousness can be defined. Even Western philosophers and scientists struggle to put a finger on it.

Our Gurus didn't put a finger on it either, but they were clear on what it isn't.

Without form
Without outline
Without color
Neither created nor destroyed, etc...

The picture that is painted when I read gurbani is of consciousness being the nirgun (unseen) aspect of the Divine. It was there in the primordial void and it animates the play around us.

Consciousness creates:

Our eyes elicit light
Our ears elicit sound
Our tongues elicit taste
Our nose elicits smell
Our skin elicits touch

If a tree falls in a forest, and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound? The conscious observer paints the picture around him in the present moment.

According to my understanding

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

If a tree falls in a forest, and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound? The conscious observer paints the picture around him in the present moment.

Actually no.. for sound to occur, there must be a source (the tree falling), a medium (the air through which the sound waves travel) and a receiver... no receiver, and the sound remains as merely pressure waves. Sound as we 'hear' it is entirely subjective... it's the result of your ears turning vibration into electrical signals which are sent to your brain. The same thing for light... etc. Without a receiver, all that exists is pure frequency.

 

[Sherdil]

Without a receiver, all that exists is pure frequency.

Yes ji, that was my point

 

[Ishna]

@Harkiran Kaur

Just a quick question. I don't know if you have the answer, but you know a lot more about quantum mechanics than I do, and this question popped into my head yesterday.

If the wave, when observed, becomes a particle... and when not observed it is a wave... and everything is consciousness (being observed by The Great Observer)... then when is the wave/particle ever NOT observed?

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

Think of it like a dream... Yes again lol

When you start walking down a road in your dream does the other end of that road already exist or is it that the road is being created as you go? The implication of several experiments (one using distant galaxies) suggests that reality is being created as we observe it... And it's ongoing. And the observer in us IS the creator. We are not actually something separate... So when we observe something it is actually not us who is doing the observing. Our consciousness IS that ONE universal consciousness and just like a dream it's not focused on everything all at once... At least this is how it's explained... Look up Schrödinger's cat experiment for more info on it... But the flaw I find in that experiment is that the cat too is conscious! So the cat would be the observer in my thoughts.

 

[Ishna]

An interesting way of looking at it.

How is it not that we are the conscious beings then, and not the entire universe?

What is the point in saying the whole universe is conscious if only the consciousness (I'll be generous here) "channelled" by us creates changes in form?

*continues to ponder the dream analogy*

Additionally, does that mean the Creator is not omnipresent?

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

Creation Is the Creator, but the Creator is also much more than the Creation and not confined to its limits. At the level of ONEness, Akal Purakh I would think would be aware of ALL at once from a perspective of everything every time all existing as ONE. Unchanging, All that ever was and ever will be.
Within the Creation, everything and everyone contains the same divine light... mineral, plant, animal... but we are told it's only in this human form can we realize Waheguru. Whether this is significant I am not sure, at least as it pertains to what qualifies as observer.
As far as physics is concerned, it's not that creation doesn't actually exist when we are not looking at it, but more that it exists as a sea of unlimited potential. All potentials existing at one time - unlimited potentiality. Its only when observed that one single outcome is discerned. And as I understand it it's not that only that one outcome is 'true' but it's only that one outcome that we are experiencing, the others all still exist as well. Things are very strange at the quantum level.