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Caste System in Sikhism

Discussion in 'Sikh Youth' started by sekhon, Oct 31, 2006.

  1. sekhon

    sekhon
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    I would like to know if Ramgarhian caste is any lower than Jatt caste? If yes, then why?
    would also like to know if a Ramgarhian boy is allowed to marry a jatt girl?

    Please advise.
     
    #1 sekhon, Oct 31, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 31, 2015
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  3. Arvind

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    Dear Sekhon ji,

    Anyone who understands Sikhi would not have asked this question, as this is just against the tenets of sikhi, which abolishes such divisions.

    Maanas ki jaat sabey eke pehchanbo.

    Regards, Arvind.
     
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  4. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    dear sekhon

    [Moderators Note: Please refrain from promoting sites, contains of which, goes against the basic tenets of Sikhi.]

    anyway main thing is not who is upper caste and who is lower caste
    main culprit is ego of the caste.nowdays in india rich backward caste hindus don't want their children to marry in upper caste because their ego of the
    caste has increased.
     
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  5. Lionchild

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    It's sad that some people will go to great lengths to uphold a man made and very detailed rehat, yet turn around and still believe in caste as a man role in decisions and life.

    If more people read our gurus words, this would not be happening. Then again, we seem to think that a rehat is more easy to follow thant the Gurus's own words.

    :(
     
  6. vijaydeep Singh

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    Gurfateh

    Das is seeking a match nowdays.

    But das will avoid the lady from the Hindu Mothers caste.But all others will work.As two swords can not reamin in one case.It may appear that two Khatranis or Kirhrans may figth with each others and make the life misrable for das.

    Das is a product of mixed caste marrige among Hindus.So das is only craking joke on himself and do not take it seriously.
     
  7. Hai_Bhi_Sach

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    In india Jatt community seems to have an upper hand being Landlords. And because Ramgharias are in a minority and have to depend on Jatts for work. This true only in Punjab and in the Villages. It is nothing more than mindset. In the past, caste system was Categorised by the work we did or our ancestors had been doing which became family business and through generation after generation we gained expertise in those fields and we never thought of venturing out of those trades.

    With more and more people venturing out of India to make a living, It is well known that these so called Jatts make both ends meet in the construction industry as labourers and have slowly moved up to acquire skills as Bricklayers and Carpenter. If Ramgharias are a low caste then why are these so called high caste Jatts working up to become Ramgharias. We all strive to work upwards, to be better than what you are. So now that the circumstances have changed, Can we now say that Jatts have become a low caste and Ramgharias are a higher caste ? Can the jatts retain their self imposed hierachy? A Sikh will undoubtedly say no.

    As sikhs we are above this type of thinking. In conclusion, technically speaking, there is no difference but it is not quite so in practice. People need to be educated on this subject. Even those people at the top (our so called Leaders) ask them if they will marry their children into lower caste ? They will not. We sikhs are hypocrites, we do not practice what we preach. If we did then Dr Ambedkar would not have told his community (schedule castes)to turn their face away from Sikhism and become Buddist. This happened because SPC refused to take them under the Sikhism umbrella and accept intercaste marriages.

    We all need to change for our survival and for the sake of Sikhism. We should practice what we preach.

    As far as inter-caste marriages are concerned, there is no problem what so ever. We need youngsters to come forth and challenge this myth and break these invisible barriers. I have come across many such successful marriages in my own family circles. You need to be a strong character yourself. You need to be a SIKH.

    Good Luck if you are in the game.
     
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  8. Randip Singh

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    This old chestnut again.

    Some very interesting comments.

    My own study of the caste/racial system in Punjab has convinced me that both Jatts and Ramgharia's are basically from the same stock.

    Prior to Sikhism, both were seen as a low caste. Both roughly had the same status.

    As for Landlords and Jatts.........very few actually were landlords as such in past (see Dr Grewal's various books on this), and this has more to do with the decline of Mughal power, and the rise of Sikh Power (particularly in Punjab).

    All this caste business amongst Sikhs has to do more with a mind set more than anything else.
     
  9. Ambi

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    there is no castes in sikhi!

    caste is something that derives from the pindhs and shehra of India. the gurus abolished this and in its place stands all are sikh; not ramgarhian, not jath, but SIKH!

    So the answer to ur question is easy....yes, no matter what 'caste' you are, you can marry into and out of any caste because as long as you are both Sikh, you will have Guru ji's blessing.
     
  10. gurus_princess

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    I totally agree with Ambi

    Take a look at the 'sikh dictionary' and you will find that caste is not written there, because there is no such thing in sikhi.
     
  11. MKAUR1981

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    WJKK WJKF

    Sekhon

    Caste's SHOULD NOT be issue in Sikhism. However, I can totally empathise with you. When my parents were looking for a spouse for me it was imperative that he was of the same caste. Then they would consider the other factors.

    I knew then that this was wrong, but had no references to show my parents. However, now they realise they were wrong and admit it was nothing more than mere pride and a matter of social class.

    Please read on the link as it will provide you with quotes from the Guru Granth Sahib and your parents cannot refute this. I don't know how much you "practice" Sikhism (if this is the correct terminology to use), but don't use this particular teaching about Caste etc just to win a battle with your parents. You will be contradicting yourself, if you use the Guru Granth Sahib to show your parents the "correct" belief and then dismiss parts of yourself. Besides your parents won't take you seriously. I'm talking personal experience here. I told my mother-in-law about not consulting a pandit for Janam Kundli as it goes against the beliefs of Sikhism. Her reply...so does drinking and smoking. Yes, looked like a prat! ::cool::


    http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-youth/14466-advise-require.html
     
  12. Huck_Finn

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    <<because as long as you are both Sikh, you will have Guru ji's blessing.>>

    i doubt this line's sanity...

    does my marrying a muslim or hindu girl make me a sinner and not fit for Guruji's blessings??????
     
  13. TanuRani

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    if anyone believes in caste system...they are not SIKH!
     
  14. Archived_Member1

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    agreed. as long as you ask for Guru ji's blessing you'll get it.

    if you can achieve "ek jot" in a mixed-faith marriage, then i don't think Gurbani speaks against it. (correct me if i'm wrong).

    the important thing is that husband and wife share that light, not what caste/colour/religion/nationality they are.

    but to be fair, i personally think that if one is a religious sikh, it is easier to achieve "ek jot" when one's spouse is also a religious sikh. but that's my opinion, not gurmat. :)
     
  15. pk70

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    Ambi ji
    Well said. Keeping faith in caste system is a sheer display of EGO and a complete U turn from Sikhi.
     
  16. Anonymous_Kaur

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    caste system is a total ********..it separates ppl !!

    that's why it's not allowed in sikhi..sikhi believs in equality !!

    The Sikh way of life is about considering all humans equal, regardless of their race, color, class, caste, gender or religion.

    ny1 that wants to belive init.. go ahead !!
     
  17. show me the light

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    that is what you believe. i believe anyone that judges others for not being a true sikh is infact, not a true sikh (my self included).



    people take this caste system thing the wrong way. in our society, there is no caste system. jatts (eastern europians), thurkahs (russia/caucus mountians), bhappas (mongolians) are NOT CASTES. these are tribal groups that have stayed intact from when these nomadic tribes moved into the indus river valley. there is nothing wrong with pride in your tribe or people, but unlike a true hindu caste system where the untouchables have no oppertunities, we do not have that.

    the pettiness of our caste system is almost like being a yankee fan or a red soxs fan. id never date someone who's a red soxs fan. for you guys accross the pond... its like a manchester united fan mixing it up with a liverpool fan.. lol.. we have our petty differences, but we are not stopping someone else from living their life, unlike the hindu system.


    people.. read an anthropology book!
     
    #16 show me the light, Apr 13, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 13, 2008
  18. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    Could you please tell us source of this research because as far as I know This is not true.There some khatri's who look like jatts while there are jatts who look like khatri's .some girls very fair skinned while other have dark complexion in the same clan so what is the basis of this research.
     
  19. show me the light

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    im too lazy to search the net but im sure you cna find stuff. anthropology is one of my passions so i'll point you twards some books:

    H.A.Rose"Glossary of Punjab tribes and Castes."
    Veena Das "THE OXFORD INDIA COMPANION TO SOCIOLOGY AND SOCIAL ANTHROPOLOGY"
    Morton Klass "Caste: The Emergence of The South Asian Social System"


    and in regards to your question of why the physical complexions are not uniform? well my answer may bother you, but please take this simply as scientific and not a slander agains anyone's caste.

    when a clan rules an area that has multiple clans in it (ie the river valleys of south asia), the ruling clan would rape the women of the other clans in showing of dominence. this does not have anything to do with pro jatt or anti jatt, it is just the way society functions. plus, jatts were not always the ruling clan (although for a majority or pre and post alexander times, they were).



    but for argument sake, lets say all the science is wrong. the gene matching to northern indians to the different parts of the world i mentioned... lets say that is all wrong as well. lets get back to the point... has being a jatt or a bhappa or a khatri ever stopped you from entering a gurdwara, a store, a bus? i doubt it. has being an untouchable ever stopped them from doing the same? you can bet on it.

    my argument is simple, we do not have a caste system.... just a enthnocentic pride that has been bred into us by generation and generations of our ancestors.
     
  20. dalsingh

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    This is really playing down caste and the impact it has on Sikh society. When Sikhs from Panjab form a significant population anywhere, you see the ugliness without the mask. Go back to Punjab in the pinds and you can see some seriously obnoxious behaviour between so called high castes and low castes. The ranges from verbal abuse to physical and sexual abuse (as indicated in your post). The behaviour of many "high castes" reminds one of the behaviour of white supremiscists in Southern America. If people from Sikh backgrounds are content to treat people as pariahs or subhuman than that is a matter of shame. Hide it as much as you want but the truth remains. I don't even want to go into it in too much detail but please open up your eyes.

    You have to question the purpose of people still holding onto medieval class structures in the 21st century.

    Well our ancestors did lots of things that we shouldn't continue: burning wives, dowry, treating other humans as "untouchables". I think we need to terminate caste discrimination in the same way and for the same reasons i.e. it just doesn't fly in the 21st century. It REALLY shocks me to see people born and raised in the west defend caste - I mean I could understand if you were uneducated from a pind.
     
    #19 dalsingh, Apr 13, 2008
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  21. richachhaba

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    Hi Friends

    These days we have seen that more and more young children are getting trimmed day-by-day. Many of them are getting hair cut and rest are getting the beard trimmed. Thus the turban is disappearing from Punjab.

    I have come across many reasons for this. I am sharing some of these reasons with you.

    1. The major reason behind this is the rejection of Sikh boys by the Sikh girls.The Sikh boys which are not trimmed and wearing turban are facing lot of rejections and humiliation of Sikh girls which prefer the clean shaven boys only. Please pick up the matrimonial section of any news paper. You can find many advertisements in which it would be clearly mentioned "Clean Shaven Preferred". This thing is very common in Punjab and Delhi side.Can't a Sikh guy in turban and untrimmed beard be smart?

    What steps are taken by the parents of the girls to improve this thing? All the times parents accept the decision of their daughters not to get married to the Sikh turbaned guy. This is the major reason among the young guys.

    In metro cities where friendships among boys and girls have become very common, you will see only countable examples where a Sikh girl is and Sikh boy are going around each other. Maximum number of times you will find the Sikh girls with the non-sikh boy only. This is because the non-sikh guys don’t have beard and turban which makes them good looking(as said by girls.). So how can you expect the younger generation having the beard and turban.

    2. In Punjab , we are divided into many castes like Jatts, Khatri, Ramgarias etc. Each caste has its +ve and -ve points. Jatt caste is considered as a dominant caste in punjab. A small child getting born in this caste starts considering himself superior to the other castes. Getting a hair cut is considered as a prestige issue in this society "Jattaan da munda ho ke vaal nahi katwaye". You will hardly find any Jatt boy who is a Gursikh. So getting married in Jat caste is preffered in this caste.

    Now comes the Khatri caste. They can be easily recognized with their Gursikh look. They have long beard and always wear turban. They go to gurdwara daily and are gursikhs ( amrit chakhya hoya hai) but they have a bigger misunderstanding that the load of whole of the Sikhism is carried on their shoulders only and they are the only who are true sikhs. Hence they considers themselves as superiors to the other castes of sikhs. Their selection criterion of a boy is that he must have a untrimmed beard and turban. As they considers themselves as superiors, they never get ready to marry their daughters in the other castes of the sikhs. They can marry their daughters with the boys of their relatives like "bua da munda", "mame da munda" etc.

    Similarly Ramgarias want to get married to Ramgarias only.

    Now as we have divided ourselves into different castes, we already have shortened our choices. Ultimately the boys and girls don't get their compatible matches and have to get married by doing compromises. This kind of compromise marriage ultimately breaks in the future. That is why the young girls are taking their own decisions to get married to the non-sikh boys because they don’t get compatible matches.

    I know in writing all these rude things I have hurt the feelings of many people. I am extremely sorry for that but my main aim to is request all the Sikhs of India to get together and fight collectively against this problem. First of all we should get united, by leaving our egos and superiority feeling, then we should think of fighting against this kind of problem. We should start making the marriage relations in all castes of sikhs. Guru Gobind Singh Jee ne amrit dee daat panj piyareya nu ditti c, oh panj piyare different castes nu belong kerde c.

    If we want to save and flourish our religion, the elders will have to improve themselves so that they can teach the youngers sikhism.

    Regards

    richa
     
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