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Bansavalinama Bansawalinama In Regards To Dasam Granth

Discussion in 'Other Scriptures' started by Kully, Sep 30, 2016.

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  1. Kully

    Kully United Kingdom
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    Seeing as bansawalinama has been brought up in many recent discussions on this forum, I would like to start this topic so we can actually look at what the text says. Rather than just quote texts to claim they say such and such without any actual looking at the texts in question.

    It's very important to look at texts and to understand what they are saying, so that we do not get the wrong idea of what is being said. Having said that some texts are quite difficult to understand, whilst others are a little more straightforward. Bansawalinama is a little more straighforward to look at compared to Charitropakhyan etc.

    I would like to share these two references in regards to the recent discussions we have been having here. I hope you all will join me in discussion.


    chibber 1.JPG chibber 2.JPG
     
  2. swarn bains

    swarn bains United States
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    Kulli jee. you have put your name such a way that you are humble but the questions you put are with the biggest ego. here is something i want to apprise you with. You are a smart person but......
    A devotee like you went to guru's congregation and requested him to bless him the divine knowledge. the guru said ; sit down. he sat for a while and then got up and asked to bless him the divine knowledge. the guru said again to sit down. then again after a while he got up and asked the guru to bless him divine knowledge.
    The guru said that you are asking for the highest reward but are you willing to give something in return? The person said yes i will give anything you ask for.
    the guru said to him to bring a glass of milk. he went and brought a glass of milk. in the mean the guru asked one his devotees to bring a dirty pot. he brought the filthy pot. The guru asked the intelligent man to put the milk in the filthy pot. He looked at it and asked the guru why are you putting milk in a filthy pot.
    The guru replied that you want divine knowledge which is pure and clean and highest entity in the universe put in a filthy pot. that is what i am trying tell you. so be patient listen to guru's sermon and teaching and guide your mind to absorb and act on it then only the divine knowledge enters the mind.
    so please do not feel offended but your questions and counter questions fall in the same category. may be; have a look inside and ask your soul what it means. may be it will guide you.
     
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    #2 swarn bains, Sep 30, 2016
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  3. Kully

    Kully United Kingdom
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    I apologise profusely to all. Please advise me on how I should have approached this, and I will try and come across as less egotisitcal next time.
     
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  4. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    I do not think it is your ego that is the problem, is is more the agenda, if you are looking for an honest debate with a view to learn and share, that is one thing, if, however, you have a clearly defined agenda that you wish to proselytise, and you wish to use the forum for that purpose, then that is different.

    Most of your posts come back to the DG, you start innocently, claiming to know nothing and have read little, but your posts display a very deep knowledge and understanding, far deeper than in anyone I have yet debated with, whether that knowledge and understanding is true, well, we will never know, but you must be lauded on your commitment and desire to understand.

    However it is YOUR understanding, and YOUR journey, share it with us by all means, but life is too short to be playing games in the name of learning, and speaking for myself, I have no wish to be educated by another's understanding, influenced, for sure, but not taught.Whatever you feel is right and works for you, great, this forum is not anti DG, it is not anti anything, perhaps you need to find another forum where you may be able to make a better point than the one you are making on this one.

    Having said that, it would be a shame to waste your knowledge and understanding, I would very much like it if you were our resident DG expert, able to answer questions and help us with our understanding, without the need for all this cloak and dagger routine.

    I would love to know more about Bansawalinama, please share with us what you know, without this thread turning into an arena to settle scores or look for converts.

    Thank you
     
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  5. Kully

    Kully United Kingdom
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    Dear all, please accept my apologies as ill-health has prevented me from adding more to this subject recently.

    I have been looking more through Bansawalinama and have found 19 additional references to DG in addition to the 2 above. I have decided not to photograph them all and share them as it would take up a lot of space here. But will do if requested.

    What I wanted to add though, was the main pages that deal with DG in Panjabi and provide an english translation for everyone to read at their leisure, which I will add as a separate post. Everyone is welcome to point out any mistakes I have made.

    From looking at this text, I do not think in any way, it can be counted a vague source. There is just too much in it, to say it is vague. One or two references sure, but 21?

    There has been some people loooking at this and saying that Chibber wrote it on the basis of hearsay, from his words "Suni sunai". But this is not accurate. Chibber states clearly the names of some of the Sikhs who he heard these stories from, and where he heard it - in sangat. from the Sikhs who were involved in Guru Sahib's life. "Suni sunai" means "heard and told". In this context it is absolutely not chinese whispers. Chibbers own words are "Likhi bachan suni sunai tis sangat majhare". meaning:

    "I wrote the words as I heard it myself, in the sangat". Yet some people are still portraying his work as being based on hearsay.
    --- Double Post Merged, Oct 13, 2016, Original Post Date: Oct 13, 2016 ---
    The Master began to speak from his Holy tongue

    The Master began to create another Granth of immense size

    (The text says “Samund-Sagar” Granth but this doesn’t feel like it’s the title, as both Samund and Sagar mean “ocean”. The inference here seems more to say it’s something very big and deep)

    And therefore a great Granth was created

    I counted 91 lines per folio myself (377)



    In the year of Seventeen hundred and fifty-eight, this Granth was given to the care of the river

    (The reference here is to the evacuation of Sri Anandpur Sahib and the immense loss suffered crossing the river in terms of people, but also horses and weapons and also literature)

    Some leaves of this granth came into the hands of Sikhs here and there

    The Master then created another Granth

    (Reference here is to SGGS, as is more apparent in next verse)

    In that the Bani was different, in this the Bani was different, both were kept separate (378)



    In the one granth was “Avtar Leela” written in complete

    (This is a reference to one name by which the collection of Guru Sahibs writings were known)

    In the other granth, the wondrous text was completed

    (This is a reference to Guru Gobind Singh Ji adding Guru Teg Bahadur’s shabads to Aad Pothi and giving it the roop of Guru Granth Sahib)

    Both Granths were not combined

    I have seen and read seven folios of the Granth in Delhi (379)



    Five folios came to the possession of a Sikh of Lahore

    Ninety-eight folios were carefully preserved bound in a cloth

    (This number in the text “athooni” does not exist today as a number, but the closest to it in modern Panjabi is “athanwe”. The other numbers ending in 8, upto 100 do not resemble it as much, so owing to the resemblance I have thought it to be 98.)

    The parts of this second granth were scattered

    Owing to battles and wars, their whereabouts was unknown. (380)



    This Granth containing the “Avtar Leela”

    Was collected by Bhai Mani Singh, High Priest, caste kamboh (381)



    When it was the years of Seventeen hundred and eighty-two

    Then Bhai Mani Singh came to reside at the other Amritsar

    (I think this may be a reference to another sarovar in Amritsar City)

    The other Amritsar is in Chola Bagh)

    Bhai Mani Singh Musaddi is recognised as a High Priest amongst the Sikhs

    A Sikh came with a lot of money

    It was given to the Sikhs to help them locate the Guru’s words. (392)



    The folios written in Guru Sahib’s own hands were found

    With those folios the Guru’s other Bani was added to complete the Granth.

    But an excess was committed by Bhai Mani Singh

    Who wrote the Bhagat Bani separately from the Adi Granth (SGGS) (383)



    The Adi Granth (SGGS) and the Granth of the Tenth Guru – both were joined together

    The Bhagat Bani was separated from the Aad Granth (SGGS)

    Both Granths were joined into one Granth

    This Granth was seen by a poor Sikh (384)

    (It’s a little odd why this Sikh had to be “gareeb-poor”. But I think that Chibber is stating here that even though the Sikh is poor he is still as valued a member of the Khalsa Panth as anyone else, and has the right to state his opinion.)



    Seeing and reading it, the Sikh gave this speech

    Saying: Brother Sikh! Why have you separated the Bhagats?

    You have broken the bound tradition of the Guru

    Your body parts should be separated in a similar fashion (385)



    The Bhai Mani Singh said to this Sikh

    “Brother! The Bhagats are the servants (lower) than the Gurus, how can they be kept on the same par?”

    The Sikhs replied as such:

    “The Lord has taken his servant into his bosom” (386)



    And given them honour and seated them beside himself (The Guru)

    You have unseated the servant from the Master’s side

    Bhai Mani Singh remained silent

    Saying “By your words my body will separated into parts” (387)



    “Bless me with Sikhi, till my last breath”

    The Sikh replied “your Sikhi is unbreakable”

    So by the word of the Sikh, Bhai Mani Singh’s body was separated limb from limb

    Bhai Mani Singh was arrested and taken to Lahore, this is to everyone’s knowledge. (388)



    In the year of Seventeen hundred and fifty-five, the Sikhs pleaded before the Guru

    “O shelter of the poor! If you give your permission, may both Granths be compiled into one volume”

    Guru Sahib spoke: “Aad Granth is the Guru, This is our play, the Panth must accept both as separate” (389)

    (Here we are told that a saroop of DG had already been compiled in Guru Sahib’s lifetime.)



    This is where Bansawalinama moves onto another topic. From the above it is very explicitly written about the authorship and origins of DG, but the main theme of Chibber’s here is to state that both Granths (SGGS and DG) were to be kept in separate volumes. This is repeated 3 times throughout the above pages.
     
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  6. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    Kullyji

    Welcome back, I hope your ill health gets better, thank you for your kind contributions on a topic that little is known about.
     
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  7. Kully

    Kully United Kingdom
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    Sorry, I got the pages in reverse order, when I first put them up. Have corrected it now, so it's easier to follow.



    --- Double Post Merged, Oct 16, 2016, Original Post Date: Oct 13, 2016 ---
    I do apologise if it feels like cloak and dagger. I am just trying to appraoch these subjects as best and as honestly as I can.


    I do have an agenda but it is not to disrupt or to deceive. I want to explore and share more sources that are bandied about on this forum by some people that have been misleading others.


    I feel very uncomfortable about being called an expert on DG, as I am still learning a whole lot about this Granth myself. However I am absolutely willing to share anything that I have learned, and also answer questions that I am able to .

    Thanks very much and you're welcome.
    --- Double Post Merged, Oct 16, 2016 ---
    Here is another very interesting page from Bansawalinama:

    chibber 7.JPG

    I have translated it as follows. Please read and offer any corrections.


    As much as you can, follow the guidance of the Granth Sahib

    Recognise no other than the Granth, Granth Sahib are two proper brothers

    One is the elder, the other is the younger, it is told. (265)

    (Here the words “vadda” and “shota” can also mean big and small, but here is means elder and younger, which is more apparent by the following lines.)



    In the year of sixteen hundred and fifty-eight, the Aad granth was born

    The Aad Granth took birth in the abode of Guru Arjan Ji

    The midwife was Bhai Gurdas, the scribe and play-companion (266)

    (Here it is very interesting how Chibber has presented the writing of Pothi Sahib as if it were a child taking birth in a house. he has also described Bhai Gurdas as the midwife, and then a child’s play companion, which could also be a caretaker of the child, whereas Bhai Gurdas was the scribe and assisted with the process of compilation.)



    The younger Granth took birth in the abode of the tenth Guru

    In the year of seventeen hundred and fifty-five, there were many scribes-play companions

    This was very precious to the Master, He wrote it with his own hand, and took care of it.

    The Sikhs made a plea, Master please join this with the previous one (267)

    (Here again Chibber has written that the Sikhs obviously had a great deal of affection for the Guru’s writings and asked him to join it to the previous granth – Pothi Sahib)



    The Master spoke:” The Granth Sahib is that one, this is my play

    This beloved won’t be joined, who can understand the mystery?

    Therefore, recognise the two brother Granth Sahibs as the Guru/(look to them for guidance).

    The elder granth is the Tikka, the Gutke pothia, recognise them as children and grandchildren.” (268)

    (Here Guru Sahib has responded, that Pothi Sahib is the Tikka – next in line to the throne, but also telling the Sikhs to recognise both Granths as brothers and to look to them both for knowledge/guidance. This reminds me of a question about the inauguration of DG and here it is clear why there was no need for inauguration of DG as a Granth. Also the reference to Gutke- pothia seems to be a message to treat them with respect as the offspring of the King. These Gutke would have contained writings from both Granths.)



    All were told one message, the Sikh is the one, who obeys these

    Whatever the Guru has said, the Sikh follows, “Contemplating the Guru, I have been taught these teachings” (269)

    “So do that work, which the Guru tells you to do. Why are you chasing after the Guru's actions?

    Follow the words that the Guru has given you. Do not mingle your own wisdom/knowledge” (270)

    (Here is a very clear command to the Sikhs to firstly accept the Guru’s decisions regarding the status of both Granths, and to accept the Guru’s decision to keep them separate.)



    “Just a someone helps his son understand, sitting him at his side, and dispelling his concerns

    But doesn’t make such assertions with others sons.” (221)

    (Here Guru Sahib is talking of a dutiful father who has a responsibility to his son to nurture and protect him, but doesn’t have the same responsibility to others son’s. Guru Ji is saying here that he has the responsibility to guide those who have become his Sikhs)



    “The True Guru cuts away the bonds of his Sikhs, The Sikh of the Guru abstains from evil deeds.

    The Sikh is that who commits no evils, keeping the Guru’s word embedded in their heart.” (272)


    “The True Guru cherishes His Sikh. The Guru is always merciful to His servant.

    The Guru washes away the filth of the evil intellect of His Sikh. Through the Guru's Teachings, he chants the Lord's Name.” (273)


    “Those who follow the Guru’s word, that Sikh is pleasing to the Guru

    Those that disobey the Guru’s word, recognise that he will drown.” (274)

    (Not drown as in a river, but Guru Sahib here is saying that his human life will not be successful.)


    “Parents disown those children who are not good, those who turn away from the Guru’s word are such bad children

    Brother Sikhs! Do not be like those bad children, Be Sikhs, good children of the Guru.” (275)


    And here the theme changes…


    So from these verses, we can say that the authorship of DG was by no other but Guru Sahib himself. The Dasam Granth was compiled in Guru Sahib’s lifetime, and the Sikhs obviously as well as Guru Sahib had a lot of affection for DG, as they expressed a desire to see it merged with Aad Pothi. We can also ascertain the statuses of both Granths very clearly. Aad Granth is the Guru, but DG is also to be respected, and the Sikhs are to seek guidance from both. Furthermore Guru Sahib clearly tells the Sikhs not to bring their own intellect into it but to accept the Guru’s wisdom and enshrine it in their hearts.
     

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  8. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    I would like to state my own stance succinctly on the topic, I firmly believe that the DG is a combination of various manuscripts, including some lost that can be attributed to the tenth master. To believe anything otherwise would shake the very foundations of my personal beliefs.

    However, this is a free forum, we can all coexist together, and learn what we can. Come to share

    that is pretty close to proselytising, and it cannot be present on this forum, if it has happened in the past, then I apologise for lack of, or poor moderation, but the rules apply equally, if there was a post on why the SGGS is the only thing that should ever be read by a Sikh, I would fight your corner to express your views just as diligently, so please, inform us, share with us, debate with us, but anything I feel is an attempt to look for converts will not be welcome.

    Another point I would like to make is that the discrimination of the female gender has been much discussed, and it is now pointless to keep raising the issue in detail, as it will dilute the thread, that, to me, is proof enough, but I would like to approach the subject to a non emotive and factual, logical discussion. If this does not happen, then this thread will probably end up closed, which would be a pity. I will go through it later with my own thoughts Kullyji
     
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  9. Kully

    Kully United Kingdom
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    Harry Ji, I do apologise if it has come across as that. Like I said my intention is not to do anything negative but to take a closer look at some writings that we have been discussing. I would welcome any input from forum members.


    The task that Admins have, in monitoring the forums is not an easy task at all. It would take someone quite special to have knowledge on each and every aspect of Sikhi. It is our job as members to bring ideas and experience to the forum. But also it is our duty to make sure that whatever we do share is based on intellectual honesty. People will be reading these forums for years to come, and I would feel terrible if I knew that I had posted something that wasn't true or based on dubious evidence because it would be affecting more and more people.


    Great, that is just what I want to do as well.

    There is one final part of Bansawalinama that i wish to share with the forum members here.

    chibber 8.JPG

    I would like to share my final effort on translation from this book with all forum members. It is from the above page concerning the basis of where Chibber got his information from.


    Bhai Mani Singh Tara Singh Ji I have done sangat of, Kaur Singh Chandra I saw in the pangat

    I saw many other Sikhs, beloved of the Guru

    I wrote words as I heard them, in the Sangat (191)



    (Chibber is telling us very clearly the source of his writings. They are from Sikhs very closely involved with Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Here the word “suni sanaiy” has been taken by some to mean “hearsay”. Suni Sunaiy just means to tell as you have heard it. It doesn’t mean anything about how true or untrue the content is.)



    I have had the blessed sight of great elder Gursikhs

    Mata Sundri, Mata Sahib Devi Ji at the Delhi Darbar

    Both Diwans, Sahib Chand, Dharam Chand, Ministers of the 10th King

    I am related to Dharam Singh, and have written the book with great pleasure in my mind (192)



    I have posted the whole page here, because Chibber further down the page uses references from “Benti Chaupai” from “Sri CharitroPakhyan Granth” in his writings.
     
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  10. Harkiran Kaur

    Harkiran Kaur Canada
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    Perhaps Kully Ji can elaborate these quotes from Banasavalinama, and comment whether or not he thinks they go against gurmat principles, and if so, can we ever trust Chhiber as a reliable source of information, especially when much of dasam granth seems to be drawn from hindu mat:

    Quoted from Banasavalinama:

    -- “Brahmin’s form is superior” Bansavalli-nama. 14, 630

    -- The Brahmin who is a Sikh, accord him high respect and honor. Ibid, 10, 354

    -- According to his will, one may remove Janju [Hindu holy thread] or wear it. Ibid, 10, 492


    Questions to Ponder:

    Does Sikhi condone casteism and place higher respect to Brahmins?
    (It would be good to note at this point that the name Chhiber is a sub caste of Kashmiri Pundits).

    Can one be both a Brahmin and a Sikh at the same time?

    Did Guru Nanak reject the sacred thread or not, and if so, why?
     
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    #10 Harkiran Kaur, Oct 18, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2016
  11. Kully

    Kully United Kingdom
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    Firstly, I'm glad to see that you are back and participating like an adult.

    In reagrds to your question of course I will elaborate. Before I do that though, tell me what are your thoughts on the above passages that I translated? Do you find that there are any changes that need to be made?

    I would like to understand why you said that Chibber based his work on hearsay, seeing as he made it very clear what the source of his information was.

    I am also interested in why you stated that Bansawalinama was an unreliable source concerning DG when I have counted so far, almost 25 references to DG in this book, with 2 very revealing passages concerning DG.
     
    #11 Kully, Oct 18, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2016
  12. Harkiran Kaur

    Harkiran Kaur Canada
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    Here say = something heard from someone else rather than giving first hand knowledge. Stating he heard these things from other people who stated they heard it from Guru Ji makes it hear say. If he instead had said he witnessed these things from Guru Ji himself then it would be first hand knowledge. Anytime someone tries to present third hand knowledge there is room for error. It's hear say. He said he said type of thing. And that too decades and decades later. Chhiber is not a reliable witness. Further he presents everything through Hindu lenses. Lastly a younger brother does not mean dasam Granth. You can't prove it is speaking of dasam Granth.

    As for your translations I think you present everything win your own agenda in mind. So you tend to force the issue that everything must be dasam Granth. And you won't step back and look at chhiber as a character to see if he is reliable. Since you are sooooo pro dasam Granth you won't step back and look at the facts instead you grasp any little thing which might help your cause.

    I'm not jumping back into this. But I think everyone should not be presented one side as if it's truth.
    As you said people could read that years later and be misled into thinking our Guru could write such women hating things and turn Sikhi into just another offshoot of Hinduism.

    Now I am sure that everyone would like to know answers from my questions about banasavilinama above. Those questions (and more which I have not posted yet) show us a picture of this chhiber and what he believed and whether or not he goes against gurmat principles.
     
  13. Kully

    Kully United Kingdom
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    OK, let me break it down further for you. What does "suni" mean? What does "sunai" mean?


    A lot of Sikh tradition is based on "seena-baseena". Wouldn't it all be then based on hearsay?

    Such as "sabh sikhan ko hukam hai guru maneyo granth"?

    Chibber has clearly stated that his source of information was from katha in Gurdwaras from those who were closely associated with Guru Sahib. He clearly states that he has written what he heard. That cannot in any way be construed as "hearsay".


    Does that mean that any writings can only be vouchsafed for authenticity if they are written when the subject is alive? If you think that even the rehatnamas which you quote selectively are hearsay.


    "Born in the abode of the 10th Guru?" What chances would you take on that?


    I present the translations as I see them. You are welcome to add your own translations. As I said earlier, correct ay of my translations which you feel are wrong.

    I know that you are against DG and hence present your information about it with your agenda in mind.


    We will in good time. Let's not overcrowd the discussion by discussing several things at once. Let's keep it flowing by moving from one point when we feel there is nothing else to discuss about that. It will make it easier for everyone.


    Speak for yourself only. If others want this information they can ask for it. Having said that we will move onto your questions as soon as we have exhausted the discussion about my translations. The best thing is for you to put forward your own translations and then we can compare what we both see.


    Good, I look forward to discussing that with you.
    --- Double Post Merged, Oct 18, 2016, Original Post Date: Oct 18, 2016 ---
    Absolutely, which you do repeatedly when it come to DG. You present your info as if it were the truth.
     
  14. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    can we please stop focusing on each others personalities and the merely the facts as I said, in a non emotional way, or this thread will end up just as the others.
     
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  15. Admin Singh

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    @Kully ji

    Just curious, how many times does Bansawalianaa refer to Gurbani from SGGS, our only Guru and in which context? Any references to the context would be appreciated.

    Also, please shed some light on the 2 very revealing passages concerning DG.

    Thank you
     
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  16. Original

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    Good evening All -

    Kully Ji, pardon me for skim-reading above, but are you saying Dasam Granth Sahib is "equally", in all respects, a "guru" of the Sikh Panth ? A simple YN please - thank you.
    The doctrine of Guru and disciple within Sikhism transcends intellectual honesty. It falls fairly and squarely within the realm of the soul and as such, beyond time and space; meaning, it's spiritual and not intellectual.
    ..I'll grant you this because the same stand as proof for the 10th master to have uttered "sub sikhan ko hukam ha guru manao granth" [note, not dasam granth], at the time of His departure from the physical plane that was then heard and captured by number of bystanders [scribes, congregation] present at the time, which is both consistent and accurate an authoritative account to confirm, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as the living Guru of the Sikh Panth.

    Much obliged -
     
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    #16 Original, Oct 18, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2016
  17. Kully

    Kully United Kingdom
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    Admin Singh, Bansawalinama does indeed refer many many times to SGGS, mainly as "Granth Sahib, Granth Ji, Gur Granth". I haven't made any record of numbers as it is not being discussed.

    Also, have you had a read through the translations I did? Have a read of them and tell me (us) what you think. What I think they say I have written as translation, and added any other info in brackets so as not to get confused with the text.
     
  18. Harkiran Kaur

    Harkiran Kaur Canada
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    Again, these questions are pertinent so as to see what the agenda of the author chhiber is.

    So I ask again, regarding these quotes from Banasavalinama:

    -- “Brahmin’s form is superior” Bansavalli-nama. 14, 630

    -- The Brahmin who is a Sikh, accord him high respect and honor. Ibid, 10, 354

    -- According to his will, one may remove Janju [Hindu holy thread] or wear it. Ibid, 10, 492


    Questions to Ponder:

    Does Sikhi condone casteism and place higher respect to Brahmins?

    Can one be both a Brahmin and a Sikh at the same time?

    Did Guru Nanak reject the sacred thread or not, and if so, why?


    The fact that the name Chhiber is a sub caste of Kashmiri Pundits, is significant as his whole philosophy will be leaning toward brahminical tendencies. Any book which tries to present Sikhi is Brahminical lens will automatically tickle the fancy of someone with Brahmin background and who thinks his caste to be superior.

    It is relevant because a large portion of scholars believe that dasam granth is attempts by brahminical hindu groups to bring Sikhi back to Hindu fold, by making Sikhi seem related to Hinduism by suggesting Sikhs worship Hindu deities, and follow laws of manu philosophy regarding women, among other things. So Chhiber being of brahmin background, and having brahminical beliefs is very pertinent as to whether or not he can be considered an 'expert' with regards to making bold claims about what our Guru actually taught.

    The point is, you can't take someone who has known brahminical beliefs (such as casteism and belief in Hindu sacred thread) in a time when Hindu agents were known to be trying to abolish Sikhi, and use that person as an 'expert' to suggest a granth (which coincidentally has a ton of hindu brahminical content) is writing of our Guru, especially when that content goes against gurmat principles as espoused in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

    There are many Sikh scholars who place doubt on authors such as Chhiber:

    Sohan Singh Seetal - “Writing of Kesar Singh Chhiber is totally influenced by the Hindu credo. Mannu Simriti’s influence is especially strong on his intellect. Contrary to Guru Gobind Singh’s dictum, ‘regard mankind as one egalitarian race’, he believes Brahmin caste to be superior to others. Just, because he belongs to Brahmin caste, he claims himself to be superior.”

    So how can he be considered an expert as to what our Guru would have taught?
     
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  19. Kully

    Kully United Kingdom
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    Original JI, please read all of it first and then share any opinions and point out any mistakes. I would love to answer your question but will hold until you have read it. It took me a whole lot longer than it will take you to read it, so please oblige me.


    Absolutely, But here we are talking more about academic honesty as well. Firstly making statements out as if they are true, but also refusing to acknowledge textual evidence.

    As I have said mnay times, you can only work with the information in front of you. Some only do that if it is in their favour.


    Spot on.
    --- Double Post Merged, Oct 19, 2016, Original Post Date: Oct 19, 2016 ---
    Those are very good questions that need addressing. But like I said let's not clutter the discussion. Do you have amendments you would like to make to the translations I did?
     
  20. Harkiran Kaur

    Harkiran Kaur Canada
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    Why would Guru Granth Sahib Ji be named by name multiple times, while Dasam Granth is not named by name one single time in the same book (if indeed it was speaking about dasam granth)?
     
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