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Sikh News AKJ vs Kala Afghanist debate

Discussion in 'Breaking News' started by vijaydeep Singh, Oct 13, 2006.

  1. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
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    Gurfateh

    Panthic Weekly: Inder Ghagga loses debates to Panthic Singhs in Toronto

    Kindly see the link above and if das gets video online das will post that also.

    on issue of Sanatan Sikhs das did find flaws in panthic.org argument.But here Bhai Kulbeer Singh Ji took the debate.

    and das could say that It is further correct,that the way Kala Afghana side people react as per personal expirance of das,it is correctly writtan.So das can trust them on that.

    Just by writing on web pages or on books is differnt then confronting in public or while replying in debate.
     
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  3. Randip Singh

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    I can't say I disapprove or support Kala Afghana's views but I know the editors of Panthic Weekly are biased fools, who sound like fanatics. That has got to be the most moronic piece of "journalism" I have ever read.:crazy:
     
  4. Archived_member2

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    Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
    Dear all!

    Gurdev is singing
    "balihaaree gur aapnay di-uhaarhee sad vaar."
    "jini maanas tay dayvtay kee-ay karat na laagee vaar." SGGS 462-19

    Thanks to Gurdev who transforms mind beings to dayvtay.

    Some hate dayvtay. They are popular as demons. Some demons spend whole life studying the nature of dayvtay to attack on them.

    What surprises me is why such demons get a chance to speak before Sikhs whose Guru is leading them to become dayvtay.


    Balbir Singh
     
  5. kaur-1

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    Inder Ghagga loses debates to Panthic Singhs in Toronto
    Wednesday 11th of October 2006
    Panthic Weekly News Bureau
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    (Top) Bhai Kulbir Singh Ji of Toronto
    debating with Inder S. Ghagga (Bottom - center)


    Brampton, Canada (KP) - In the past few years, the public has seen an assortment of anti-Gurmat literature being produced by various individuals promoting Kala-Afghana/missionary lobby viewpoints. In their message, they viciously attack the very fundamentals that set the Sikh Panth apart for other faiths. Instead of utilizing sound logic and Gurbani as a basis of their arguments they often resort the ridicule and sarcasm in a sign of desperation and lack of confidence.

    One such "parcharak" is Inder Ghagga. He was not allowed in UK Gurdwaras and was reportedly even dragged from the stage at a Gurdwara in the Eastern United States.

    In Canada, he has caused skirmishes between his supporters and those who were offended by his derisive remarks against Gurmat and respected Gursikhs.

    When he spoke at Mayfield Gurdwara Sahib, in Brampton Ontario two weeks ago, a melee broke our between his supporters and members of Panthic organizations who charged that he was spreading anti-Sikh propaganda and was insulting respected Sikh personalities in his books and on stage. Ghagga in his book "Sada Berra Kio Garkia", he has harshly criticizes various Gursikhs and key Sikhi concepts.

    In the Toronto area, Ghagga is being promoted by the pro-Kala Afghana supporter, Gurcharan ‘Jeeonwala‘ Brar. Overconfident of his debating skills, Ghagga has appeared on various radio talk shows and private functions where he has openly challenged anyone to debate him on this twisted philosophy on Gurmat.

    Some of his views include :

    • [*]That there is no such thing as the power of Naam.

      [*]Naam simran that involves reciting of Gurmantar (as instructed in the Panthic Sikh Rahit Maryada) is Pakhand [hypocritical], he refers to is ‘Gorakh Dhandha.’

      [*]Guru Nanak Sahib Ji ate Halal meat under pressure, when he visited Mecca.

      [*]Siri Guru Arjun Dev Ji fainted when he was tortured because he could not withstand the pain. In other words, he views all of the ten Guru Sahibs as ordinary humans beings.

      [*]He wrote very harshly against Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji Bhindranwalay and other respected Panthic personalities, often ridiculing them in a offensive manner.

      [*]He is a also a ferocious supporter of meat eating.
    Open Challenge to Singhs

    Since no one had seriously challenged him, he became further encouraged and arrogant and began to boast that there was not a single Sikh in Toronto who could debate him.

    When sevadars of Gurdwara Tapoban Sahib, located in the Toronto suburb of Brampton, heard about Ghagga’s haughty challenge, they became curious about who this individual was. The more they found out of his warped ideology, the more they felt it was necessary to confront this man at an intellectual level for the defense of Gurmat and Panthic principles.

    Gurdwara Tapoban sevadars after a Gurmatta, accepted the challenge and via Ghagga’s liaisons, a debate was set up for September 27th, 2006 at Gurdwara Sahib Tapoban.

    According to witnesses present there, "He came with about 10-15 of his supporters. The Singhs went in the debate as underdogs and he was full of haumai. Within minutes [of debating], he realized that he was stuck."

    ‘The Fierce debater vs. a Young Khalsa’

    Ghagga was to debate the Panthic Singhs led by Bhai Kulbir Singh, a young Singh in his thirties, who is considered quite knowledgeable in Gurmat and Gurbani Viakaran (grammar). Ghagga who has been preaching his missionary 'Sikhi' for the last three decades, thought this would be a no contest debate. Soon, he would find out how wrong his assumptions were.

    According to several eyewitnesses interviewed by Panthic Weekly, Ghagga became so uneasy that he asked for drinking water three times. Witnesses stated that his hands were trembling and he was perspiring heavily throughout the debate. It was clear that the fierce 'debater' Ghagga had lost his bearing.

    Ghagga lost the entire debate on all subjects and now the some neutral Singhs insisted that another debate be set at a public venue. The date was set for October 1, 2006 at 9am, but Ghagga never showed up. Via third parties, and with great difficulty, he was persuaded to debate and finally the debate was set up for about 4 hours later at 1pm.

    Second Debate

    This debate went on for about two hours and has been video recorded. The recordings of this second debate are being made available by the Singhs and will be available on Panthic Weekly soon.

    It is interesting to note that the Panthic Singhs led by Kulbir Singh did not have any prior public debating experience, yet they were successful in defeating someone such as Ghagga who has spent his entire life in such controversies. Instead of debating on the contentious issues, Ghagga kept digressing and changing subject. This further proved that he could no longer defend himself or his philosophy.

    Most importantly, Ghagga publicly accepted that Naam Simran is a principal of Gurmat. He accepted that his sakhi about Guru Nanak Dev Ji eating meat in Mecca was his imagination as was Guru Arjun Dev Ji’s fainting incident.

    According to eyewitnesses, having lost twice on all subjects, Ghagga left as a very upset man. He has declined to debate any further. His skills seems more fitted for an arguer than a true debater.

    Deflated Pride

    Subsequent to this debate, the Panthic Singhs had challenged him for another debate and the challenge was published in the Punjabi Post newspaper. However, the man who boasted so much on the radio waves that not a single Singh in Toronto can debate him, had now become silent. Publicly it is now clear that these so-called scholars are merely paper tigers.

    Editors can be reached at editors@panthic.org
     
  6. kaur-1

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  7. kds1980

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    on the sikh sangat.com .a person has exposed the lies of panthic weekly


    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Inder Ghagga Loses Debates To Panthic Singhs In Toronto - The Voice of Sikh Youth


    OK where do we start... hmm ok lets start from the article by panthic weekly i will go down the points which are stated in the articles which are total lies...

    " Inder Ghagga loses debates to Panthic Singhs in Toronto "

    Wow its pretty sad to say that these so called panthic singhs determine of who is a singh of the guru and who isnt! The Singh in Inder Singh Ghagga has either been mistakingly forgotten or it might be an error? Or perhaps these so called panthic singhs just didnt intend to put singh in his name so they are the ones who determine who is a singh and who isnt. Prof has taken khaday battai tha amrit as far as i know one who has becomes a singh... just would like to point out a few things

    " Instead of utilizing sound logic and Gurbani as a basis of their arguments they often resort the ridicule and sarcasm in a sign of desperation and lack of confidence."

    this is quite interesting because if you listen to his audios or read his book when he ever he writes on the basis of what is written in guru granth sahib ji... maybe that isnt considered gurbani to "panthic singhs" ... listen to the video he presents puts forward by gurbani on veechar with one another...

    "When he spoke at Mayfield Gurdwara Sahib, in Brampton Ontario two weeks ago, a melee broke our between his supporters and members of Panthic organizations who charged that he was spreading anti-Sikh propaganda and was insulting respected Sikh personalities in his books and on stage. Ghagga in his book "Sada Berra Kio Garkia", he has harshly criticizes various Gursikhs and key Sikhi concepts."

    may i please ask who are these so called poanthic orginizations??? are these the same panthic orginizations who consider tra charitars as bani or dont accept sikh reyat maryada??? and who are these so called respected personalities who follow hindu maat and are students of pandits, nirmalais... and first studied vedas, ramyan and other hindu granths before even starting to read guru granth sahib ji as stated in there book!"

    "That there is no such thing as the power of Naam.

    Naam simran that involves reciting of Gurmantar (as instructed in the Panthic Sikh Rahit Maryada) is Pakhand [hypocritical], he refers to is ‘Gorakh Dhandha.’"

    There is two different types of naam which are debated by prof inder singh and kulbir singh.... Bhai kulbir singh says naam is waheguru jaap only... while prof says naam is gurbani itself..... There is two different sides as to what the power of naam is... Bhai Kulbir singh says by doing waheguru jaap you can do certain chamitkaars so on... he also says that totta raatan of the same word being repeated is not acceptable... now i would like to say is how much time would be considered totta rattan? 15 min,m 30 min, hour, 2 hour, 3 hour.... that is a question for him to answer... also in sikh reyat maryada it says to do waheguru jaap in the morning before nitnem... now it doesnt say how much time it just says do waheguru jaap... i would like to add that akal purkh says to remember him forever and always... doing waheguru the jaap is just a way to get you started for doing nitnem to remember akal purkh... we should akal purkh on are minds always... As for the Gorakh Dhanda as the title that in the next edition he will remove that.... He said everyones makes mistakes when they write he will correct that in the next edition of his book....

    "Guru Nanak Sahib Ji ate Halal meat under pressure, when he visited Mecca."

    This is a topic that gets a lot of people heated... My personal belief is that whatever he ate we dont know... i would like to say that what did guru hargobind sahib do... when you hear of "dhadis" say guru sahib went in the forest and played shakaar... what does that mean? that means he went and killed animals and ate them... he didnt just go there and kill them for fun... if we hear of other guru sahibs eating maas why does it hurt so much that guru nanak sahib ate maas they are all one jot...


    "Siri Guru Arjun Dev Ji fainted when he was tortured because he could not withstand the pain. In other words, he views all of the ten Guru Sahibs as ordinary humans beings."

    Guru sahib is shabad Guru... Guru sahib was a person in a human body... The thing that is so special about the guru is the shabad in which he says... That is why we are all his kids because we are learning from guru sahib and his shabad.... at this day we have the shabad with us in shri guru granth sahib ji.... I dont understand why it is so difficult for people to understand that guru sahib fainted... If guru sahib didnt faint then can someone tell me how he became shaheed? HOW DID GURU ARJUN SAHIB BECOME SHAHEED IF HE DIDNT FAINT! secondly people who say guru sahib was not in a regular human body.. Yes he did feel pain.. but the pain didnt effect him one bit because hwas one with god and he knew the time came... It was his mind that felt no pain.. Guru harkrishan sahib attained guruship for about 5 years... and his joti jot came at when he was just at the age of 7... guru harkrishan became ill and passed away... and the guru ship went to guru tegh bahadhur sahib... now if we say guru sahib was in a regular body how come guru harkrishan sahib left this world at the tender age of 7... could guru sahib not stop his illness??? he was guru we hear of people doing akhand paats and sukhmani sahib thai paat and we hear of cancer getting cured by akhand paat... but yet guru sahib couldnt not get cured himself... this is just a bhakhand which people have put in us... Guru sahibs shabad is mahan..

    "He wrote very harshly against Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji Bhindranwalay and other respected Panthic personalities, often ridiculing them in a offensive manner. "

    This is a tottly different subject we will make an another thread and discuss... this topic was not even debated on.. everyone became panthic no taksali could be found! no one wanted to discuss the issue..

    "He is a also a ferocious supporter of meat eating."

    This so called panthic weekly website promoted sikh reyat maryada half the time and doesnt promote it the other half... they put in brackets (sikh reyat maryada) beside the waheguru jaap complaint but forgot to put sikh reyat maryada in the the meat eating issue... panthic weekly= hypocrites

    "According to witnesses present there, "He came with about 10-15 of his supporters. The Singhs went in the debate as underdogs and he was full of haumai. Within minutes [of debating], he realized that he was stuck."

    The meeting at tapoban prof came with 10-15 people???? thats ridiculas.....it was 5 or 6 people i dont know where the number of 10-15 came from i think it was quite the oppisite... either the witness was blind or panthic weekly is just telling a lie to boost there article.. within minutes of debating he relized he was stuck? i dont understand how he was stuck... those guys said he didnt faint while prof said guru sahib had to have fainted with the explonation above... what kind of debate is that.. how was he stuck i dont understand...

    "According to several eyewitnesses interviewed by Panthic Weekly, Ghagga became so uneasy that he asked for drinking water three times. Witnesses stated that his hands were trembling and he was perspiring heavily throughout the debate. It was clear that the fierce 'debater' Ghagga had lost his bearing"

    He asked for drinking water three times??? how old is he 70-80 years old what does having a drink of water have anything to do with a debate... his hands were probably trembling because one fo the guys had a gandasa in his hand and two karas which were 2 kilos each hahahahahaha... shameful...

    "Ghagga lost the entire debate on all subjects and now the some neutral Singhs insisted that another debate be set at a public venue. The date was set for October 1, 2006 at 9am, but Ghagga never showed up. Via third parties, and with great difficulty, he was persuaded to debate and finally the debate was set up for about 4 hours later at 1pm. "

    Who pulled the outcome of the debate the "panthic singhs" or "panthic weekly" hahahahaha... the next debate was set for 9 am... how many people do you need to debate at most 4-6 from each side... at 9 oclock 100 people were standing outside to doorstep reading to debate hahaha... until everyone was gona and the people who were supposed to debate were left then the debate happened... and still there were peopleleft over there were supposed to be 4-5 from prof inder singhs sid ena d4-5 of other... prof inder singh brang 4-5 and kulbir singh had 14-17....

    "It is interesting to note that the Panthic Singhs led by Kulbir Singh did not have any prior public debating experience, yet they were successful in defeating someone such as Ghagga who has spent his entire life in such controversies. Instead of debating on the contentious issues, Ghagga kept digressing and changing subject. This further proved that he could no longer defend himself or his philosophy. "

    We will see when the video comes on the internet these guys are making the decision already shows you what news reporting skills they have...

    "Most importantly, Ghagga publicly accepted that Naam Simran is a principal of Gurmat. He accepted that his sakhi about Guru Nanak Dev Ji eating meat in Mecca was his imagination as was Guru Arjun Dev Ji’s fainting incident. "

    As for the naam simran he said whatever is present in akal takht maryada he accepts... As for the other two subjects he did not accept anything and that is a lie.. we shall see who is telling the truth when the movie comes out... Bhai Kulbir Singh accepted that Kavi Santhok Singh writeer of suraj parkash and raatan singh bhanguu writer of panth parkash are both wrong in the sakhis they have wrote to make guru sahib look bad? now what mission will these "panthic singh start against him?" What base is history written? everyone talks about base of prof.... Whatever is the philosphy of gurmat and makes sense according to gurmat is the only base !!!!!!! Guru granth sahib is our base!!!

    Isnt lying against the principals of sikhi??? how much can you lie it unbelieveable...... this article should be on lie.com


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    it is shame that our so called panthic sikhs are using this type of tactics
    just to prove that they won a debate with another group of sikhs
     
  8. skeptik

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    too funny. the pakhandi kirtani jatha vs kala afghana. god must be laughing up there :D
     
  9. vijaydeep Singh

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    Gurfateh

    look at the link below

    http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=kulbir+singh

    but das further want to add that faith factor is less in missioanry so they avoid to contront AKJ people,this may give wrong message to thier supporter.

    They have fear factor in them.They need to be ready for scarfise for thier ideolgy as AKJ guys are.
     
  10. kaur-1

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    So are they both half correct and half wrong in their views? They are speaking way too fast for me and I cant understand quite a bit of the punjabi.
     
  11. kaur-1

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    Bilja relpied to the above comments on sikhsangat.

    QUOTE
    and first studied vedas, ramyan and other hindu granths before even starting to read guru granth sahib ji as stated in there book!"


    There is nothing wrong with studying other religious books. Please provide any reference from Gurbani that proves me wrong.

    QUOTE
    i would like to say that what did guru hargobind sahib do... when you hear of "dhadis" say guru sahib went in the forest and played shakaar... what does that mean? that means he went and killed animals and ate them... he didnt just go there and kill them for fun... if we hear of other guru sahibs eating maas why does it hurt so much that guru nanak sahib ate maas they are all one jot...


    This is only your personal belief and has no basis from Gurbani. As Bhai Kulbir Singh said: two wrongs don’t make it right. Just because dhadhis say it doesn’t make it right. As Sikhs we must evaluate every sakhi on the basis of Gurbani. Guru Sahib did not hunt just any animal. Only those were hunted who Guru Sahib wanted to bless with Muktee. One example is, the snake who was blessed. It was the same snake who used to be a dehdhari guru. Surely, Guru Sahib wouldn’t have eaten the snake afterwards. Guru Gobind Singh Ji hunted a rabbit who turned his back on Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Then Guru Sahib became Joti Jot. Historical books explain the events that took place afterwards i.e. passing Guruship to Guru Granth Sahib Ji. No historic book say that Guru Sahib ate the rabbit. Every animal that was hunted had some link with Guru Sahib and it was their time to get muktee.

    QUOTE
    I dont understand why it is so difficult for people to understand that guru sahib fainted... If guru sahib didnt faint then can someone tell me how he became shaheed?


    Faint doesn’t mean to become Shaheed. If Guru Sahib fainted on the hot iron plate then was he carried to river by Gursikhs and then thrown into it? Just think about it. Defend Ghugga on some rational arguments not by insulting Guru Sahib. Bhai Taru Singh Ji’s scalp was cut off yet he stayed alive for 20 days. Bhai Mati Das Ji was cut into half yet sound of JapJi Sahib was heard from the two pieces. Bhai Anokh Singh Babbar’s eyes were taken out, tongue was cut off, every joint in the body was broken yet he did not faint. Three gursikhs were tied to a tree and wolves were let free to eat Sikhs by taking bite after bite. Sound of “Waheguru” was heard by everyone until they passed away. Yet no one fainted. Guru Sahib-giver of life, who controls death, could never have fainted. If he fainted then you are implying that He could no longer bear the pain of torture which is false because if His Sikhs can undergo so much pain and never faint then it was not a problem for Guru Sahib either. Ghugga has admitted that these statements are his own assumptions, not backed by any source.

    QUOTE
    Yes he did feel pain


    Those who say “Tera Keeya Meetha Laagay” never feel any pain. Gurbani considers “Jatthar Aag” to be the greatest of all pains which is staying in a womb for nine months. Try to study the true character of Guru Sahib and only then you will understand that One who runs this entire creation is not susceptible to any worldly pain.

    QUOTE
    could guru sahib not stop his illness???


    He could but Guru Sahib tells us in His bani that nothing is permanent. It was not like He was dying. He changed His body because the time was coming to save a religion that w s on the edge of annihilation.


    QUOTE
    he was guru we hear of people doing akhand paats and sukhmani sahib thai paat and we hear of cancer getting cured by akhand paat... but yet guru sahib couldnt not get cured himself... this is just a bhakhand which people have put in us... Guru sahibs shabad is mahan..


    This shows how low of an opinion one can have of His Guru just to defend a human being. Vasu Bharadwaj is just one example (his video is available online and so is his contact. Ask him for his illness reports) who was cured by Gurbani. Another police officer from Maharashtra was cured from blindness. A Radha Soami family had leprosy and was cured the day after they took Amrit. These miracles happen so people like us can learn something and never forget our Guru Sahib. Panthic Weekly has no right to question if Ghugga is a Sikh but you have the right to ask why Guru Sahib did not do such and such? What was the dire need of Guru Sahib to “cure” himself? What benefit could that have brought? He never fell in love with physical body or any materialistic things. Only us humans do that.


    QUOTE
    his hands were probably trembling because one fo the guys had a gandasa in his hand and two karas which were 2 kilos each hahahahahaha... shameful...


    These insulting comments of yours about Guru Sahib’s Kakkars show what kind of a Sikh you are. A true Sikh would never even think about insulting Kakkars.

    QUOTE
    As for the naam simran he said whatever is present in akal takht maryada he accepts...


    Did he ask you to represent him? Everyone can watch the video and make their own decisions. He doesn’t even accept his own school’s teachings. It is not about what he believes but about insulting comments you have written just to defend one human being.

    QUOTE
    Bhai Kulbir Singh accepted that Kavi Santhok Singh writeer of suraj parkash and raatan singh bhanguu writer of panth parkash are both wrong in the sakhis they have wrote to make guru sahib look bad?


    He rejected one particular sakhi not all of them. Gur Partap was written off of five old granths such as Prem Sumarag and GurSobha. Like I said, every sakhi must be evaluated on Gurbani basis.

    QUOTE
    everyone talks about base of prof.... Whatever is the philosphy of gurmat and makes sense according to gurmat is the only base !!!!!!! Guru granth sahib is our base!!!


    “our base”? Who is “our”? You and Ghugga? Prof. Ghugga has clearly stated that many statements which were argued were his own assumptions and not based on Gurbani.

    At least show some respect for Guru Sahib. You claim to be a Sikh yet don’t understand the true power of your Guru. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
     
  12. kaur-1

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  13. vijaydeep Singh

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    Gurfateh

    DEar Sister Kaur-1,

    Das just wants to say that both could be valid at thier point but after Kala Afghan Sahib's fear factor has taken over misioanires ,they are in great Dhandian Kalan.

    REaly they have dauobt and fear in thier mind.So they tend to be weak in front of Chardi Kala AKJ Sikhs even on some issues das may find they are justified.Also they lack sense of Scarfise as AKJ Sikhs have.All this is with AKJ due to high dsicplined life due to Bebecki Rahit.
     
  14. Randip Singh

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    I have never really thought deeply about Kala Afghana's views but the more I am reading, the more fanatical AKJ appear to be and the more reasoned Kala Afghana appears to be.

    Kaur-1 - This Bijla fellow sounds like a fanatic. Does he believe in the tooth fairy too?
     
  15. kaur-1

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    Waheguru ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru ji Ki Fateh,

    Actually I highly respect "Bilja" Veerji's various post's on that site.
    We need more practising Sikh's like him otherwise we will have this (see link) sorry state of affairs.

    http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-media-watch/14368-clergy-worried-rural-punjab-shaves-its.html

    For example, the comment of the kerah (1 of the 5 K's), his reply was not of a "fanatic", actually it made sense. He actually made alot of sense in his replies. Another e.g., is Bilja's reply to "International Akaali" Guru Arjan ji's post.

    I just shake my head with utter disbelive and disapointment at how this kind of comments can even be uttered by a so called Sikh.

    "Bilja's" responses to "International Akaali" were spoken from a mindset of a practising Sikh who has a deep understanding of Gurmat.

    Maybe you should try and read his replies again on various post on that site and see what I mean.

    As regards to Kala Afghana's view on Naam Simran, he sounded confused and "extremely stubborn" (fully of ego) in his stance.

    Do a search on "Naam" or "Naam Simran" on this site and you will know what it is about. E.g. result :http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/23673-post1.html


    From my simple understanding, very briefly:

    1. Gurmantar -
    gur mMqR - "Waheguroo"(Naam Simran) recited aloud or otherwise is creating a connection with God and creating a conscious of God in you and around you. Can be done anytime, anyway, in meditative pose or during your everyday chores. (Do a search on the gurmukhi word in SGGSJ)

    2. Gurbani contains Naam too. -
    bwxI - Listening or reciting Gurbani Shabad (Almightys' sacred words) is also a form of medition and invokes the conscious of God in you and around you. This is also Gurmantar.http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/46935-post1.html
    (p/s: one also needs to able to understand whats being sung to fully comprehend the msg in the shabad)



    Both go hand in hand. Therefore Kala Afghana views on Naam Simran is incorrect.

    But overall I am extremely pround that the debate took place. Instead of physically fighting, we should have more of this types "peaceful" debates dont you think?
     
  16. Randip Singh

    Randip Singh
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    Sorry about that....I was being flippant and making a sarcastic comment :unsure:

    ......but as soon as I here someone saying that our Guru's used to grant Mukhti to animal's by killing them it really makes me angry. The Guru's were not God.....:}--}: ....they were not concerend with such miracles. In any case this is just Hindu Vaishnavism brought in by converts to Sikhism from the late 19th to early 20th century. :advocate:

    I still stand by views on Bijla...I have read his views on many sites and they sound like that of a fanatic.......the Guru's had no need to do miracles.........miracles to me is anti-Gurmat.

    I agree...we need peaceful debates.
     
  17. roopsidhu

    roopsidhu
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    SSA to all
    Yes Randip Ji u R 100 % right, there is no place for the miracals or rituals in Gurmat. But we should be sorry to accept that nowadays the ritualism and miracals has taken over the true spirit of gurmat.
     
  18. kaur-1

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    Veerji, I dont want to get involved with the "meat" issue in the debate. I dont think either side should even argue over this issue.

    But I have a question for you. What are your views on for eg:

    - Walli Kandhari
    "Panja Sahib"

    and
    - Guru Nanak in Mecca
    "Please turn my feet away from the direction of God" - Guru Nanak in Mecca!


    SSA to you too:) and Waheguru ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru ji Ka Khalsa.

    Yes, there are too many unnecessary rituals.
     
  19. S Singh

    S Singh
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    Veer Randip Singh Jee, so anyone who does not agree with your views or thought patern is a 'fanatic'? To me, that sounds a little fanatic.
     
  20. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    the question here is not who won debate.the question is why AKJs are exagerrating there victory.the person international akali itself mentioned that he was present at both debates and the article of panthic weekly is full of lies.if akjs are chardikala gursikhs why are they publishing lies.why each and every time they humilate other sikhs for not accepting their beleifs.is this debate going to help sikhism?
     
  21. kaur-1

    kaur-1
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    Waheguru ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

    From your reply its obvious your are taking Kala Afghana's view point (and not forgeting "International Akaali").
    I dont think "all" of panthic weekly is wrong or as you stated "full of lies"!. Are you saying that you disagree with all of the below?


    "Some of his views include :
    • That there is no such thing as the power of Naam.
    • Naam simran that involves reciting of Gurmantar (as instructed in the Panthic Sikh Rahit Maryada) is Pakhand [hypocritical], he refers to is ‘Gorakh Dhandha.’
    • Guru Nanak Sahib Ji ate Halal meat under pressure, when he visited Mecca.
    • Siri Guru Arjun Dev Ji fainted when he was tortured because he could not withstand the pain. In other words, he views all of the ten Guru Sahibs as ordinary humans beings.
    • He wrote very harshly against Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji Bhindranwalay and other respected Panthic personalities, often ridiculing them in a offensive manner.
    • He is a also a ferocious supporter of meat eating."
    This I think is a fact: "Ghagga has appeared on various radio talk shows and private functions where he has openly challenged anyone to debate him on his twisted philosophy on Gurmat."

    Well, a peaceful debate took place rather then physical fighting. Thank God!.
    And yes to your last comment. This kind of peaceful debate are helpful.
     

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