What is Prayer? Should Sikhs Pray?

harry haller · #1 (**permalink**) 14-Apr-2012, 17:22 PM

Gurfatehji

The dictionary definition of prayer is

a. A reverent petition made to God, a god, or another object of worship.
b. The act of making a reverent petition to God, a god, or another object of worship.
2. An act of communion with God, a god, or another object of worship, such as in devotion, confession, praise, or thanksgiving: One evening a week, the family would join together in prayer.
3. A specially worded form used to address God, a god, or another object of worship.
4. prayers A religious observance in which praying predominates: morning prayers.
5.
a. A fervent request: Her prayer for rain was granted at last.
b. The thing requested: His safe arrival was their only prayer.
6. The slightest chance or hope: In a storm the mountain climbers won't have a prayer.
7. Law
a. The request of a complainant, as stated in a complaint or in equity, that the court grant the aid or relief solicited.
b. The section of the complaint or bill that contains this request.

I find none of these definitions in line with what I believe our relationship with Creator and Creation should be. It is tempting to believe that God is sitting in his big white chair looking down on us, listening to our prayers, and then waving his magic prayer wand, and granting them, but I find this incompatible with Sikhism. The order of the world, the consonance that we all seek to be in line with, covers the laws of nature, the laws of the world, I do not believe these laws are bent by Creator through prayer, although most other religions seem to do so.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/38357-what-is-prayer-should-sikhs-pray.html

My father was rushed to hospital last week, with blood poisoning, at one point he was informed that the following 12 hours could bring the situation either way, most people have a 50% chance of survival from blood poisoning, so, it was a critical situation. I am here in the UK, dad is in India, thankfully my mother is an incredibly strong intelligent woman, and she ensured my father had the best care in hospital, and he is now at home recuperating. However, when things were looking a bit freaky, my mother asked me to pray for my dad. I could not, I could not even try, or begin to know how to try, instead, I accepted that what would happen, would happen, and consoled myself that my dad, unlike me, had behaved in consonance all his life, he had done everything in his life, to best of his ability, as a good Sikh, he is honest, truthful, easy going, both my parents are, I reckoned that this gave him the best chance of getting over this, a good clean lifestyle, and a clear peaceful head meant that his body was stronger and less stressed than some, all I could do was support as best I could from so many miles away, and offer pragmatic and realistic help.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38357

I read and remembered bani to help me when I felt a bit worried, I thought of Guruji watching his beloved Sikhs being tortured, I realised that me being worried was not going to help anyone or anything, so I stopped worrying and left the situation in the hands of Hukam, of the order of the world, but I did not pray.

I think praying in situations like this makes a mockery of your faith, do I really think Creator is going to say, 'oh well, Harrys praying, I may as well intervene here', that is no basis for faith, it is superstition, ritual, magic, miracles. If as Sikhs we are to have complete acceptance in the order of Creator, why would we pray?

Scarlet Pimpernel · #2 (**permalink**) 14-Apr-2012, 19:25 PM

Quote:

If as Sikhs we are to have complete acceptance in the order of Creator, why would we pray?

Musketeer for the one that prays ,the prayer is within the order,for the one who does not pray ,no prayer is in the order.

jasbirkaleka · #3 (**permalink**) 14-Apr-2012, 21:30 PM

Exactly my views Harry ji, but I could"nt have been so erudite as you.

eropa234 · #4 (**permalink**) 14-Apr-2012, 21:50 PM

Praying is waste of time there is no one at the other end listening to it. Even if there were I would say they know better than you and does not require your " recommendations "
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38357
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38357

I find Gurbani very interesting. The only way to benefit from it is to study it, draw wisdom and truth from it and test it in the lab of daily life. Being a good Sikh is only being a good student nothing more.

Its silly to pray to guru to give some one space in his charn when they are dead one must find that space while they are alive. " Jo karn hout so na kio, pario lobh kay phand, Nanak samio Ram gayo, aab kion rovat aandh.

Taranjeet singh · #5 (**permalink**) 14-Apr-2012, 22:38 PM

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Harry ji , I shall begin with Prayer or as we call it.. Ardas.
Ardas is to establish a connection with God. It soothes the nerves and calms the troubled mind. Yes, God does not have any magic wand. He is Nirlep as well. It is HIS game and Granth sahib explains the rules of game. There is no one in this world except HIM. We act as per His will.

One can classify Ardas into two Broad categories.i.e.for personal achievements/gains/immediate gains related to worldly affairs. This sort of ardas may not carry weight except for the benefits stated above i.e to bring calm and serenity.

Second type of ardas is Panthic i.e prescribed by the Tenth master. Even in that Ardas there is no begging for worldly achievements/affairs.

A sikh does not pray for worldly achievements as these are gifted. Sikh prays for His grace so that we can develop discriminating intellect/Bibek Budhi and achieve equi- poise when 25 pair of opposites, including pain and pleasure., heat and cold....etc. just appear two sides of coin and does not disturb us. This type of prayer is widely recommended. One may refer to Bani and it would be observed that at places one is asked to do Ardas for Naam Daan and His grace.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38357
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38357

Your question is only obliquely answered as I cannot answer it directly. But I shall not call any prayer as pointless. To ordinary human being these types of situations bring them closer to God. [Dukh Daru sukh Rog Bhaya....]

I shall close it with a line that I remember...

Sabh tudhe passo Mangde....Nit kar Ardas.....

I wish early recovery of Dear Uncle..

passingby · #6 (**permalink**) 15-Apr-2012, 09:30 AM

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Originally Posted by eropa234

Praying is waste of time there is no one at the other end listening to it.

Really? This is certainly not Gurbani's position. It might be yours personally but not Gurbani. Can you prove from Gurbani that to ask help from God is wrong?

Gurbani describes Akaal Purakh as the Father, the Mother, the Relative, the Brother, the Protector. If I were to REALLY, EMOTIONALLY ACTUALLY start feeling this way, would I not ask for help from Akaal Purakh when I need it?? If my mind is disturbed through some great fear, lets say some enemy attacking me, would it be wrong for me to pray for strength??

I am surprised that such a simple thing should be brought to question. There are so many Sakhis in which devotees have prayed for help. How can one say that prayer is a useless thing?

Did not Draupadi ask for help when she was being disrobed?? Did she not cry for help? Was that not a prayer? Was it some kind of meditation?? NO IT WAS A DEEPEST, MOST URGENT CRY FOR HELP. IT WAS A PRAYER FOR GOD SAKE!

Man!

If prayer is a waste of time the please explain what this Gurshabad means?

Quote:

ਧੰਨਾ ॥ ਗੋਪਾਲ ਤੇਰਾ ਆਰਤਾ ॥ ਜੋ ਜਨ ਤੁਮਰੀ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਰੰਤੇ ਤਿਨ ਕੇ ਕਾਜ ਸਵਾਰਤਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਦਾਲਿ ਸੀਧਾ ਮਾਗਉ ਘੀਉ ॥ ਹਮਰਾ ਖੁਸੀ ਕਰੈ ਨਿਤ ਜੀਉ ॥ ਪਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀਆ ਛਾਦਨੁ ਨੀਕਾ ॥ ਅਨਾਜੁ ਮਗਉ ਸਤ ਸੀ ਕਾ ॥੧॥ ਗਊ ਭੈਸ ਮਗਉ ਲਾਵੇਰੀ ॥ ਇਕ ਤਾਜਨਿ ਤੁਰੀ ਚੰਗੇਰੀ ॥ ਘਰ ਕੀ ਗੀਹਨਿ ਚੰਗੀ ॥ ਜਨੁ ਧੰਨਾ ਲੇਵੈ ਮੰਗੀ ॥੨॥੪॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 695}

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Even if there were I would say they know better than you and does not require your " recommendations "

Prayer may mean different things to different people but most commonly prayer is a humbly asking for help. It is not a 'recommendation'

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I find Gurbani very interesting. The only way to benefit from it is to study it, draw wisdom and truth from it and test it in the lab of daily life. Being a good Sikh is only being a good student nothing more.

So what does Gurbani teach and what can we learn from it? The thoughts? or the morality? Will the thoughts, the concepts, the rational conclusion bring about divinity in the nature of the mind? Will deducing or deciphering meaning of Gurbani bring all the peace and all the spirituality in our minds? Will it make us Brahmgyanis or something of the sort?

I wonder why people can miss the point like this. Gurbani is verbal manifestation of the divinity of the Sikh Gurus. It serves many purposes but the most basic purpose it serves is (according to my small understanding):

-teach about Onkaar which is the First Principle of all existence. Attainment or realisation or connecting with this Onkaar through NAAM.

- Reiterate the importance of NAAM again and again and again and again and again......

-Remind, encourage, inspire for practice of NAAM jaap.

Thats it! Thats the main thing! If NAAM is not practiced, we can all become philosophers for sure but we cannot become Bhagats or Sikhs or anything near divine beings.
I hear this often, 'Gurbani teaches us this and gurbani teaches us that'. People miss the basic point by 100 miles! The basic point is NAAM, people!! NAAM!!

My apologies for this blurting out like this, but I got agitated. I know its contradictory, talking about NAAM and yet be agitated. But I had to say it out aloud like this. Forgive me, please.

gurmit kaur mit · #7 (**permalink**) 15-Apr-2012, 11:05 AM

waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki faeh ji... bahut sohne vichar ne ji... akal purakh ji hor charhdikla bakhshan...

Luckysingh · #8 (**permalink**) 15-Apr-2012, 13:02 PM

How can prayer be a waste of time ?
Is there even any point in having faith or religion if you feel there is no one at the other end ??
quote by Harryji
I think praying in situations like this makes a mockery of your faith

Well, I think believing prayer is a waste of time- is an actual mockery of faith.

I totally understand the rage felt by Passingby ji above. Come on guys, what are we saying here ???

Quite simply- PRAYER is Talking To God.
If someone asks me to pray for them or something else, I see no wrong in this at all.
They are asking me to talk to God.
There is nothing ritualistic about it, prayer and religion go together.

Prayer can be divided into 2 categories,
1st-No.1 , A Prayer with an expected worldly outcome, and
2nd- No.2 A Prayer with no specific worldly outcome.

For eg. You could pray asking for a certain job, after an interview. The prayer could be along the lines of 'please Lord, I need this job, so please make it possible, because I can then do this..this...this...and that....-This is A Prayer with specific expected outcomes.
OR you could do No.2 a Prayer with regards to the job without any specific demanding outcomes such as ' Please Lord bless me and give me grace so that I may pursue the best possible option, let your WILL be the deciding factor wether I get the job or not, but whatever happens, may that be the best thing for me in the long run, I ask for your blessings'

BOTH No.1 and No.2 can be used to pray.
No.1, where one asks for that job to happen is because they believe it would be the best thing. If it doesn't happen, then they are not or shouldn't stop praying.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38357
In my opinion it is these No.1 's that have not had the expected specific outcome in instances that are the ones to say praying is a waste of time,-what's the point ?? Whatever happens will happen anyway.
Whereas No.2 prayers are the ones that regardless of outcome are always pleased with the outcome.-
Well, I wouldn't put it as always pleased- as there would be a greater tendency wishing for the job to happen.-BUT, they are more accepting, as they will accept the job Not happening- they would be thankful that the intended decision was still for the best.-They know with time, they will realise why they didn't get the job.
Was it even worth them wasting their time ?? -One will ask, -Ofcourse it was.-
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38357
Its Talking to God.
It's about how spiritual one is. The more spiritual one is the more likely they pray via No.2
The less spiritual, the less they pray altogether.

So, is it wrong to ask ???- No, never.
But, I don't like the idea sometimes of reciting a whole list of items before the lord, I would rather pray for strength in battling your 5 vices and praying that God provides me with what I need.- This is just me, it doesn't mean this is how it should be done.

But, everyone has different needs at different times in their life. So, I don't have any problem with anyone asking to pass their exams, get the scholarship or job ...etc...etc...
THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. IF THAT'S HOW YOU PRAY AND TALK TO GOD, THEN FINE..... WHY SHOULD WE JUDGE AND SAY IT'S WRONG OR A WASTE OF TIME!!!!

Even though you can pray via No1 or No.2 method. - I can't say that one is better than the other. Although, No.2 is less likely to make you feel you've wasted your time than No.1
I feel everyone that prays, prays with both methods at different times in their lives and will carry on doing so.

Praying helps us devolop spirituality, no doubt and spirituality helps strengthen the prayer.- This is why most of us are more than happy when a Gianni does the ardaas mentioning our prayer or outcome. Because, we regard the gianni as more spiritual, regardless of wether he actually is or not.

So, the answer to Harryji's question 'if sikhs should pray ?' is simply -YES- as it helps condition ones spiritually and vice versa, saying No- isn't going to help at all, afterall, there is nothing to lose or any negative effects of praying, no harm can ever be done by it. But you can do more harm to yourself in terms of spirituality by denying the need to pray.

Waheguru
Lucky Singh

harry haller · #9 (**permalink**) 15-Apr-2012, 19:55 PM

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Well, I think believing prayer is a waste of time- is an actual mockery of faith.

Contemplation, which is thinking hard about the word of God, and figuring out how to implement it, is time well spent. To ask God for anything is a waste of time, and in my view is dangerous

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Quite simply- PRAYER is Talking To God.
If someone asks me to pray for them or something else, I see no wrong in this at all.
They are asking me to talk to God.
There is nothing ritualistic about it, prayer and religion go together.

I find so much wrong with this statement, firstly why is anyone asking you? why would they not be able to do it themselves? Do you have a private line to God that they do not have? this is how babas start, by encouraging others they have a magic hotline

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For eg. You could pray asking for a certain job, after an interview. The prayer could be along the lines of 'please Lord, I need this job, so please make it possible, because I can then do this..this...this...and that....-This is A Prayer with specific expected outcomes.
OR you could do No.2 a Prayer with regards to the job without any specific demanding outcomes such as ' Please Lord bless me and give me grace so that I may pursue the best possible option, let your WILL be the deciding factor wether I get the job or not, but whatever happens, may that be the best thing for me in the long run, I ask for your blessings'

I cannot see the point of either, you assume that God is going to change the course of life, or give you special powers, how is this not a belief in magic, in superstition, whilst your wasting time praying for a short cut, you could be spending that time ensuring you have given your best and by giving your best as laid out in bani, being truthful, honest, showing no fear, not arguing

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BOTH No.1 and No.2 can be used to pray.
No.1, where one asks for that job to happen is because they believe it would be the best thing. If it doesn't happen, then they are not or shouldn't stop praying.
In my opinion it is these No.1 's that have not had the expected specific outcome in instances that are the ones to say praying is a waste of time,-what's the point ?? Whatever happens will happen anyway.
Whereas No.2 prayers are the ones that regardless of outcome are always pleased with the outcome.-
Well, I wouldn't put it as always pleased- as there would be a greater tendency wishing for the job to happen.-BUT, they are more accepting, as they will accept the job Not happening- they would be thankful that the intended decision was still for the best.-They know with time, they will realise why they didn't get the job.
Was it even worth them wasting their time ?? -One will ask, -Ofcourse it was.-
Its Talking to God.
It's about how spiritual one is. The more spiritual one is the more likely they pray via No.2
The less spiritual, the less they pray altogether

Now we enter very dangerous ground, and this exactly my point for not praying in such a manner, instead of looking at yourself, and figuring out what you did not do to get a job, or working out what you could have done to make it happen, you accept it as the will of God. When my father was in hospital, I did not pray, I looked up every reference to blood poisoning I could find, and researched all treatments and symptoms, my mother and brother did the same, between us, we knew exactly what the situation was, and what was being done, are you suggesting I should pray and leave it all to God? That is not the God I recognise, God gives me the brains to seek the knowledge for myself, it is provided in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, it is the only reference I have and need, it is not a book of chants and spells to be recited and for intricate ceremonies with nice smells and fires, it is wisdom to be learned and to be used.

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But, everyone has different needs at different times in their life. So, I don't have any problem with anyone asking to pass their exams, get the scholarship or job ...etc...etc...
THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. IF THAT'S HOW YOU PRAY AND TALK TO GOD, THEN FINE..... WHY SHOULD WE JUDGE AND SAY IT'S WRONG OR A WASTE OF TIME!!!!

Sorry, I say it is wrong, lets stop learning altogether and just chant and meditate and ask God for help?

And what happens when a wish is granted, when as prayer is heard? it is human nature then to put everything on the prayer and nothing on the learning, the wisdom, is this right?

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Praying helps us devolop spirituality, no doubt and spirituality helps strengthen the prayer.- This is why most of us are more than happy when a Gianni does the ardaas mentioning our prayer or outcome. Because, we regard the gianni as more spiritual, regardless of wether he actually is or not.

Learning helps us develop spirituality, I do not believe any God wishes us to be beholdent to it, if anything surely God wishes us to learn and become wise, how is prayer going to make us wise? it is only going to confuse us and sideline our thinking.

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So, the answer to Harryji's question 'if sikhs should pray ?' is simply -YES- as it helps condition ones spiritually and vice versa, saying No- isn't going to help at all, afterall, there is nothing to lose or any negative effects of praying, no harm can ever be done by it. But you can do more harm to yourself in terms of spirituality by denying the need to pray.

Sorry I remain unconvinced, there are many negative aspects to prayer, a belief in ritual, superstition and magic for one as against a belief in simple universal truth and order.

It is the difference between fate and Hukam.