What is Prayer? Should Sikhs Pray?

passingby · #10 (**permalink**) 15-Apr-2012, 20:34 PM

In Gurbani there are numerous references to mythological stories from Puranas. One of these is the story of an Elephant who was arrogant and thought himself to be quite powerful. One day while taking a bath in a river a crocodile bit his leg and would not let go. At this time, on seeing death right in the face, the inner consciousness of the elephant suddenly awakened and he cried out for help! At that very time Hari/Akaal-Purakh showered his Grace on the elephant and he was freed from the grip of the crocodile.

Look at the reference to this story:

Quote:

ਦੋਹਰਾ ॥ ਬਲੁ ਛੁਟਕਿਓ ਬੰਧਨ ਪਰੇ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਹੋਤ ਉਪਾਇ ॥ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਅਬ ਓਟ ਹਰਿ ਗਜ ਜਿਉ ਹੋਹੁ ਸਹਾਇ ॥੫੩॥
(1429, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji)

There are numerous references in Gurbani to this same story.
My small understanding is that when there is some great trouble in one's life the mind is moved from its deepest recesses. This is in-fact a very favourable time turning to Akaal-Purakh for help. This is the time when ego is truly humbled and one truly 'falls on the feet of Lord'. In such a situation when one prays with deep humility and sense of helplessness Akaal-Purakh showers help and grace. Of course this is not a matter of right of the individual soul. So it cannot be said that if somebody prays he should receive exactly what he is asking for. Thats for Akaal-Purakh to decide.

In my personal life I have been in trouble a number of times. In a few of those times I felt that everything was over, especially because I was truly at fault and would have deserved the negative results. I felt very ashamed for my weak and unwise actions. The situation humbled me and I would pray from inside all the time. Whenever my mind stirred up I would start asking for help. Sometimes I would cry in my room, cursing myself for everything. There was a huge stress on my brain, like I was carrying a ton of weight. But in the end Guruji showered his mercy on me and the people in authority started favouring me even though I did not expect them to. All due to Guruji's grace.

No brothers, prayer is not useless. In fact when one has done everything within one's power and yet the danger does not end then it is the usually the only thing one can do.

Brothers, don't you remember the story when Maharaja Ranjit Singh along with his army had to cross the river Attock but it was in full spate and there was no way to cross it? At that time Ranjit Singh humbled down from inside and he humbly performed an Ardaas and the river soon came down to a comfortable level.

If a person's mind is already strong enough to stay calm and accept what is happening as the Hukam of Akaal Purakh then such a person does not need to pray for help. He just continues to meditate on NAAM. Example of such persons are Bhai Mani Singh, Bhai Taru Singh Shahid. They had cultivated a very high spiritual consciousness, such that pain and fear could not disturb the mind.
But for a person who has not trained his mind to forget everything and concentrate on NAAM, praying for help is not only natural but is recommended as well, because it humbles one from inside and connects one with Akaal Purakh.

Scarlet Pimpernel · #11 (**permalink**) 15-Apr-2012, 20:35 PM

Quote:

Sorry I remain unconvinced,

Then my Musketeer friend to remain unconvinced is in the order.http://fora.tv/2009/08/14/Karen_Arms...Says_Armstrong

passingby · #12 (**permalink**) 15-Apr-2012, 21:37 PM

I again put forward the following shabad of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. It truly depicts that we have to ask Akaal Purakh for everything because He is the Source of all existence. Before saying that praying and asking from Akaal-Purakh is useless this Shabad needs to be interpreted:

Quote:

ਧੰਨਾ ॥ ਗੋਪਾਲ ਤੇਰਾ ਆਰਤਾ ॥ ਜੋ ਜਨ ਤੁਮਰੀ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਰੰਤੇ ਤਿਨ ਕੇ ਕਾਜ ਸਵਾਰਤਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਦਾਲਿ ਸੀਧਾ ਮਾਗਉ ਘੀਉ ॥ ਹਮਰਾ ਖੁਸੀ ਕਰੈ ਨਿਤ ਜੀਉ ॥ ਪਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀਆ ਛਾਦਨੁ ਨੀਕਾ ॥ ਅਨਾਜੁ ਮਗਉ ਸਤ ਸੀ ਕਾ ॥੧॥ ਗਊ ਭੈਸ ਮਗਉ ਲਾਵੇਰੀ ॥ ਇਕ ਤਾਜਨਿ ਤੁਰੀ ਚੰਗੇਰੀ ॥ ਘਰ ਕੀ ਗੀਹਨਿ ਚੰਗੀ ॥ ਜਨੁ ਧੰਨਾ ਲੇਵੈ ਮੰਗੀ ॥੨॥੪॥
(695, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji)

Of course the things prayed for can be interpreted to have a symbolic meaning rather than just material things but they are still things being asked for. There is 'asking'.

Please also do not think that I am advocating asking for material things. No, not at all. To accept things as Hukam is the higher state of mind. But religious/spiritual path is not just for the already higher mind persons. Its also for the lay people who are struggling with fear and attachment.

Gurbani says the best 'asking' is asking for NAAM. That is the highest form of asking. But this does not mean one cannot ask for other things.

There are 4 purusharthas or aims of life, termed as ਚਾਰਿ ਪਦਾਰਥ in Gurbani:
1. Dharma
2. Artha
3. Kama
4. Moksha

All 4 of these can be 'asked' for:

Quote:

ਚਾਰਿ ਪਦਾਰਥ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਮਾਗੈ ॥ ਸਾਧ ਜਨਾ ਕੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਲਾਗੈ ॥ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਆਪੁਨਾ ਦੂਖੁ ਮਿਟਾਵੈ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਰਿਦੈ ਸਦ ਗਾਵੈ ॥ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਅਪੁਨੀ ਸੋਭਾ ਲੋਰੈ ॥ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਇਹ ਹਉਮੈ ਛੋਰੈ ॥ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਣ ਤੇ ਡਰੈ ॥ ਸਾਧ ਜਨਾ ਕੀ ਸਰਨੀ ਪਰੈ ॥ ਜਿਸੁ ਜਨ ਕਉ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਦਰਸ ਪਿਆਸਾ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਤਾ ਕੈ ਬਲਿ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਸਾ ॥੫॥
(Sukhmani Sahib, Pg 266 Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji)

Now, another request my brother. Please read the following lines slowly and try to connect with the feeling expressed. Before deciding that praying is wrong please ponder over the meaning and the feeling expressed here:

Quote:

ਦੇਵਗੰਧਾਰੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
Dayv-Gandhaaree, Fifth Mehl:
ਅਪੁਨੇ ਹਰਿ ਪਹਿ ਬਿਨਤੀ ਕਹੀਐ ॥
Offer your prayer to your Lord.
ਚਾਰਿ ਪਦਾਰਥ ਅਨਦ ਮੰਗਲ ਨਿਧਿ ਸੂਖ ਸਹਜ ਸਿਧਿ ਲਹੀਐ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
You shall obtain the four blessings, and the treasures of bliss, pleasure, peace, poise and the spiritual powers of the Siddhas. ||1||Pause||
ਮਾਨੁ ਤਿਆਗਿ ਹਰਿ ਚਰਨੀ ਲਾਗਉ ਤਿਸੁ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਅੰਚਲੁ ਗਹੀਐ ॥
Renounce your self-conceit, and grasp hold of the Guru's feet; hold tight to the hem of God's robe.
ਆਂਚ ਨ ਲਾਗੈ ਅਗਨਿ ਸਾਗਰ ਤੇ ਸਰਨਿ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਕੀ ਅਹੀਐ ॥੧॥
The heat of the ocean of fire does not affect one who longs for the Lord and Master's Sanctuary. ||1||
ਕੋਟਿ ਪਰਾਧ ਮਹਾ ਅਕ੍ਰਿਤਘਨ ਬਹੁਰਿ ਬਹੁਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸਹੀਐ ॥
Again and again, God puts up with the millions of sins of the supremely ungrateful ones.
ਕਰੁਣਾ ਮੈ ਪੂਰਨ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ਨਾਨਕ ਤਿਸੁ ਸਰਨਹੀਐ ॥੨॥੧੭॥
The embodiment of mercy, the Perfect Transcendent Lord - Nanak longs for His Sanctuary. ||2||17||
(531, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji)

Sikhi is the marga of Bhakti. The Bhagwan is everything for the Bhakta. The Bhakta tries to dive deep into his love for Bhagwan. Thats is his main target. But a Bhakta is also human. Therefore whenever he is in pain he cries out to hi Bhagwan for help. And Bhagwan always comes forward to help the Bhakta. This is the ideal of Bhakti. We may or may not reach this state.

Quote:

ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
Siree Raag, Fifth Mehl:
ਜਾ ਕਉ ਮੁਸਕਲੁ ਅਤਿ ਬਣੈ ਢੋਈ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਦੇਇ ॥
When you are confronted with terrible hardships, and no one offers you any support,
ਲਾਗੂ ਹੋਏ ਦੁਸਮਨਾ ਸਾਕ ਭਿ ਭਜਿ ਖਲੇ ॥
when your friends turn into enemies, and even your relatives have deserted you,
ਸਭੋ ਭਜੈ ਆਸਰਾ ਚੁਕੈ ਸਭੁ ਅਸਰਾਉ ॥
and when all support has given way, and all hope has been lost -
ਚਿਤਿ ਆਵੈ ਓਸੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਲਗੈ ਨ ਤਤੀ ਵਾਉ ॥੧॥
if you then come to remember the Supreme Lord God, even the hot wind shall not touch you. ||1||
ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਨਿਤਾਣਿਆ ਕਾ ਤਾਣੁ ॥
Our Lord and Master is the Power of the powerless.
ਆਇ ਨ ਜਾਈ ਥਿਰੁ ਸਦਾ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੀ ਸਚੁ ਜਾਣੁ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
He does not come or go; He is Eternal and Permanent. Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, He is known as True. ||1||Pause||
ਜੇ ਕੋ ਹੋਵੈ ਦੁਬਲਾ ਨੰਗ ਭੁਖ ਕੀ ਪੀਰ ॥
If you are weakened by the pains of hunger and poverty,
ਦਮੜਾ ਪਲੈ ਨਾ ਪਵੈ ਨਾ ਕੋ ਦੇਵੈ ਧੀਰ ॥
with no money in your pockets, and no one will give you any comfort,
ਸੁਆਰਥੁ ਸੁਆਉ ਨ ਕੋ ਕਰੇ ਨਾ ਕਿਛੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਕਾਜੁ ॥
and no one will satisfy your hopes and desires, and none of your works is accomplished -
ਚਿਤਿ ਆਵੈ ਓਸੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਤਾ ਨਿਹਚਲੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਰਾਜੁ ॥੨॥
if you then come to remember the Supreme Lord God, you shall obtain the eternal kingdom. ||2||
ਜਾ ਕਉ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਦੇਹੀ ਵਿਆਪੈ ਰੋਗੁ ॥
When you are plagued by great and excessive anxiety, and diseases of the body;
ਗ੍ਰਿਸਤਿ ਕੁਟੰਬਿ ਪਲੇਟਿਆ ਕਦੇ ਹਰਖੁ ਕਦੇ ਸੋਗੁ ॥
when you are wrapped up in the attachments of household and family, sometimes feeling joy, and then other times sorrow;
ਗਉਣੁ ਕਰੇ ਚਹੁ ਕੁੰਟ ਕਾ ਘੜੀ ਨ ਬੈਸਣੁ ਸੋਇ ॥
when you are wandering around in all four directions, and you cannot sit or sleep even for a moment -
ਚਿਤਿ ਆਵੈ ਓਸੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਤਨੁ ਮਨੁ ਸੀਤਲੁ ਹੋਇ ॥੩॥
if you come to remember the Supreme Lord God, then your body and mind shall be cooled and soothed. ||3||
ਕਾਮਿ ਕਰੋਧਿ ਮੋਹਿ ਵਸਿ ਕੀਆ ਕਿਰਪਨ ਲੋਭਿ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥
When you are under the power of sexual desire, anger and worldly attachment, or a greedy miser in love with your wealth;
ਚਾਰੇ ਕਿਲਵਿਖ ਉਨਿ ਅਘ ਕੀਏ ਹੋਆ ਅਸੁਰ ਸੰਘਾਰੁ ॥
if you have committed the four great sins and other mistakes; even if you are a murderous fiend
ਪੋਥੀ ਗੀਤ ਕਵਿਤ ਕਿਛੁ ਕਦੇ ਨ ਕਰਨਿ ਧਰਿਆ ॥
who has never taken the time to listen to sacred books, hymns and poetry -
ਚਿਤਿ ਆਵੈ ਓਸੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਤਾ ਨਿਮਖ ਸਿਮਰਤ ਤਰਿਆ ॥੪॥
if you then come to remember the Supreme Lord God, and contemplate Him, even for a moment, you shall be saved. ||4||
ਸਾਸਤ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਬੇਦ ਚਾਰਿ ਮੁਖਾਗਰ ਬਿਚਰੇ ॥
People may recite by heart the Shaastras, the Simritees and the four Vedas;
ਤਪੇ ਤਪੀਸਰ ਜੋਗੀਆ ਤੀਰਥਿ ਗਵਨੁ ਕਰੇ ॥
they may be ascetics, great, self-disciplined Yogis; they may visit sacred shrines of pilgrimage
ਖਟੁ ਕਰਮਾ ਤੇ ਦੁਗੁਣੇ ਪੂਜਾ ਕਰਤਾ ਨਾਇ ॥
and perform the six ceremonial rituals, over and over again, performing worship services and ritual bathing.
ਰੰਗੁ ਨ ਲਗੀ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਤਾ ਸਰਪਰ ਨਰਕੇ ਜਾਇ ॥੫॥
Even so, if they have not embraced love for the Supreme Lord God, then they shall surely go to hell. ||5||
ਰਾਜ ਮਿਲਕ ਸਿਕਦਾਰੀਆ ਰਸ ਭੋਗਣ ਬਿਸਥਾਰ ॥
You may possess empires, vast estates, authority over others, and the enjoyment of myriad of pleasures;
ਬਾਗ ਸੁਹਾਵੇ ਸੋਹਣੇ ਚਲੈ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਅਫਾਰ ॥
you may have delightful and beautiful gardens, and issue unquestioned commands;
ਰੰਗ ਤਮਾਸੇ ਬਹੁ ਬਿਧੀ ਚਾਇ ਲਗਿ ਰਹਿਆ ॥
you may have enjoyments and entertainments of all sorts and kinds, and continue to enjoy exciting pleasures -
ਚਿਤਿ ਨ ਆਇਓ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਤਾ ਸਰਪ ਕੀ ਜੂਨਿ ਗਇਆ ॥੬॥
and yet, if you do not come to remember the Supreme Lord God, you shall be reincarnated as a snake. ||6||
ਬਹੁਤੁ ਧਨਾਢਿ ਅਚਾਰਵੰਤੁ ਸੋਭਾ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਰੀਤਿ ॥
You may possess vast riches, maintain virtuous conduct, have a spotless reputation and observe religious customs;
ਮਾਤ ਪਿਤਾ ਸੁਤ ਭਾਈਆ ਸਾਜਨ ਸੰਗਿ ਪਰੀਤਿ ॥
you may have the loving affections of mother, father, children, siblings and friends;
ਲਸਕਰ ਤਰਕਸਬੰਦ ਬੰਦ ਜੀਉ ਜੀਉ ਸਗਲੀ ਕੀਤ ॥
you may have armies well-equipped with weapons, and all may salute you with respect;
ਚਿਤਿ ਨ ਆਇਓ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਤਾ ਖੜਿ ਰਸਾਤਲਿ ਦੀਤ ॥੭॥
But still, if you do not come to remember the Supreme Lord God, then you shall be taken and consigned to the most hideous hell! ||7||
ਕਾਇਆ ਰੋਗੁ ਨ ਛਿਦ੍ਰੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਨਾ ਕਿਛੁ ਕਾੜਾ ਸੋਗੁ ॥
You may have a body free of disease and deformity, and have no worries or grief at all;
ਮਿਰਤੁ ਨ ਆਵੀ ਚਿਤਿ ਤਿਸੁ ਅਹਿਨਿਸਿ ਭੋਗੈ ਭੋਗੁ ॥
you may be unmindful of death, and night and day revel in pleasures;
ਸਭ ਕਿਛੁ ਕੀਤੋਨੁ ਆਪਣਾ ਜੀਇ ਨ ਸੰਕ ਧਰਿਆ ॥
you may take everything as your own, and have no fear in your mind at all;
ਚਿਤਿ ਨ ਆਇਓ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਜਮਕੰਕਰ ਵਸਿ ਪਰਿਆ ॥੮॥
but still, if you do not come to remember the Supreme Lord God, you shall fall under the power of the Messenger of Death. ||8||
ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਰੇ ਜਿਸੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਸਾਧੂ ਸੰਗੁ ॥
The Supreme Lord showers His Mercy, and we find the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy.
ਜਿਉ ਜਿਉ ਓਹੁ ਵਧਾਈਐ ਤਿਉ ਤਿਉ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਉ ਰੰਗੁ ॥
The more time we spend there, the more we come to love the Lord.
ਦੁਹਾ ਸਿਰਿਆ ਕਾ ਖਸਮੁ ਆਪਿ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਦੂਜਾ ਥਾਉ ॥
The Lord is the Master of both worlds; there is no other place of rest.
ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਤੁਠੈ ਪਾਇਆ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਚਾ ਨਾਉ ॥੯॥੧॥੨੬॥
When the True Guru is pleased and satisfied, O Nanak, the True Name is obtained. ||9||1||26||
(70, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji)

Do you see how this shabad starts by referring to material things and suffering but then progresses to higher spiritual targets?
This is Bhakti. A sincere Bhakta starts with material things and concerns but gradually leaves all the material concerns behind and merges into his Bhagwan.

Respect and love.

Taranjeet singh · #13 (**permalink**) 15-Apr-2012, 21:52 PM

Respected Passingby veer ji,

Very many thanks for your posts. I am deeply moved by the efforts you have put in and for making this thread meaningful.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/38357-what-is-prayer-should-sikhs-pray.html

Regards!

harry haller · #14 (**permalink**) 15-Apr-2012, 23:50 PM

Passingbyji

I am moved by your post, it is hard not to be, but the above shabad states that is the rememberence of God that is important. To me that is remembering the word of God, the Shabad Guru. I will confess that I too in my past have prayed hard, very hard, and, yes, I have too have never been let down. I also have cried my eyes out and been on my knees with hands folded together, although we are talking 17 years ago.I stopped...., I stopped because it was all too easy, I was in a cycle of doing bad deeds, living a bad life, but praying whenever it all got bad, and every time, I carried on my sordid life, until one day when everything went wrong, instead of prayer, and wishing to break the cycle, I decided to meet my maker, but my efforts were hampered, and what followed was 15 years of humility, acceptence, and atheism.I tried to put right all I had done wrong, and it has left me in no doubt that prayer, distance healing, people with spiritual powers all exist, and all can have an effect, but they are nothing more than diversions and light shows.They distract from the purpose of life, to learn, to gain knowledge, and also, to realise and suffer consequences of our actions.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38357
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38357

And that is why I do not pray, Hukam is there for a reason, even if after doing my best, who am I to question it, but I would rather spend precious time and energy doing my best than reaching for the batphone.

Our Gurus 'prayed' in bad times, but I would say it was more of a rememberence and acceptence than a request for change

passingby · #15 (**permalink**) 16-Apr-2012, 06:53 AM

You are of course right Harry ji. There is a tendency to revert back to lower living after the crisis has passed. It happens with me, it happened with you, it happens with every one. I agree completely.
And yes to completely and utterly accept Hukam is what Gurbani preaches to us to reach and aspire. That is unquestionably correct. When one surrenders to Hukam one's mind becomes firm and it is then that fear truly vanishes away.

I remember a story of a zen monk who was resting in his room when his disciple rushed to him saying, 'Master, master a fire has broken out in the building!'.
Master- 'How far is it?'.
Disciple-'Just a block away!'
Master- 'Okay come to me when it comes near'
And the Master went back to rest, completely undisturbed!

A while later the disciple comes rushing again:
'Master! the fire has come closer!'
Master- 'How far is it now?'
Disciple- 'Just half a block away!'
Master- 'Okay come to me when comes nearer'
And he went back to his rest yet again!

A while later the disciple comes rushing again:
'Master! the fire has come even closer!'
Master- 'How far is it now?'
Disciple- 'Just two houses away!'
Master- 'Okay come to me when it comes nearer'
And he went back to his rest yet again! Completely undisturbed!

Still again a while later the disciple comes rushing:
'Master! the fire is very close!'
Master- 'How far is it now?'
Disciple- 'Just the next house!'
Master- 'Okay bring me my sandals, lets move leave this place.'
And the Master leaves the house to safety very calmly and undisturbed.
Such is the mental poise of the someone who accepts Hukam.

We all have read and heard about such people. But personally I have no hope of attaining any stability or respectable inner strength if I do not fully indulge in a psychologically transforming practice, which in case of Sikh path is NAAM japa. How else can I expect such a strength for myself just from volition?

Just yesterday I was reading recorded conversations of Mirra, the Mother of Aurobindo Ashram. She says:

Quote:

I have also come to realize that for this sadhana of the body, the mantra is essential. Sri Aurobindo gave none; he said that one should be able to do all the work without having to resort to external means. Had he reached the point where we are now, he would have seen that the purely psychological method is inadequate and that a japa is necessary, because only japa has a direct action on the body. So I had to find the method all alone, to find my mantra by myself. But now that things are ready, I have done ten years of work in a few months. That is the difficulty, it requires time ...
And I repeat my mantra constantly when I am awake and even when I sleep. I say it even when I am getting dressed, when I eat, when I work, when I speak with others; it is there, just behind in the background, all the time, all the time.
In fact, you can immediately see the difference between those who have a mantra and those who don't. With those who have no mantra, even if they have a strong habit of meditation or concentration, something around them remains hazy and vague. Whereas the japa imparts to those who practice it a kind of precision, a kind of solidity: an armature. They become galvanized, as it were.

This passage was very inspiring, so I thought I'll share.

Luckysingh · #16 (**permalink**) 16-Apr-2012, 07:16 AM

Well, I think believing prayer is a waste of time- is an actual mockery of faith.

H- Contemplation, which is thinking hard about the word of God, and figuring out how to implement it, is time well spent. To ask God for anything is a waste of time, and in my view is dangerous
L- How can asking God be a waste, Asking is not telling. Bowing down, kneeling and asking is an act of respect and humility. How can this be dangerous

Quite simply- PRAYER is Talking To God.
If someone asks me to pray for them or something else, I see no wrong in this at all.
They are asking me to talk to God.
There is nothing ritualistic about it, prayer and religion go together.

H- I find so much wrong with this statement, firstly why is anyone asking you? why would they not be able to do it themselves? Do you have a private line to God that they do not have? this is how babas start, by encouraging others they have a magic hotline

L- this was a reference to your comment when requested to pray. You thought of it as unnecessary and pointless. If someone asks me to pray for someones health or well being, I find that they are asking me to do a spiritual act of goodness- what's wrong with that ?? It's not about private lines, the more that commit to prayer the better.
Your comment that-why should I be asked ? do I have a private line to god ?- Is like someone asking why do you follow sikhism ?- because you get express tickets to salvation ??

For eg. You could pray asking for a certain job, after an interview. The prayer could be along the lines of 'please Lord, I need this job, so please make it possible, because I can then do this..this...this...and that....-This is A Prayer with specific expected outcomes.
OR you could do No.2 a Prayer with regards to the job without any specific demanding outcomes such as ' Please Lord bless me and give me grace so that I may pursue the best possible option, let your WILL be the deciding factor wether I get the job or not, but whatever happens, may that be the best thing for me in the long run, I ask for your blessings'

H- I cannot see the point of either, you assume that God is going to change the course of life, or give you special powers, how is this not a belief in magic, in superstition, whilst your wasting time praying for a short cut, you could be spending that time ensuring you have given your best and by giving your best as laid out in bani, being truthful, honest, showing no fear, not arguing

L- I do NOT assume that my course of life will change with a sudden prayer, no one that prays does this. It's an act that is used along with ALL our abilities.
Giving your best as laid out in bani is all the qualities that we need plus prayer if it helps. Bani mentions acts of prayer throughout.
Everything we do in life from learning, doing and giving our best is not all we do. We still have hope, no matter what we hope for. What better way of formatting your hope in a prayer ??

BOTH No.1 and No.2 can be used to pray.
No.1, where one asks for that job to happen is because they believe it would be the best thing. If it doesn't happen, then they are not or shouldn't stop praying.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38357
In my opinion it is these No.1 's that have not had the expected specific outcome in instances that are the ones to say praying is a waste of time,-what's the point ?? Whatever happens will happen anyway.
Whereas No.2 prayers are the ones that regardless of outcome are always pleased with the outcome.-
Well, I wouldn't put it as always pleased- as there would be a greater tendency wishing for the job to happen.-BUT, they are more accepting, as they will accept the job Not happening- they would be thankful that the intended decision was still for the best.-They know with time, they will realise why they didn't get the job.
Was it even worth them wasting their time ?? -One will ask, -Ofcourse it was.-
Its Talking to God.
It's about how spiritual one is. The more spiritual one is the more likely they pray via No.2
The less spiritual, the less they pray altogether

H- Now we enter very dangerous ground, and this exactly my point for not praying in such a manner, instead of looking at yourself, and figuring out what you did not do to get a job, or working out what you could have done to make it happen, you accept it as the will of God. When my father was in hospital, I did not pray, I looked up every reference to blood poisoning I could find, and researched all treatments and symptoms, my mother and brother did the same, between us, we knew exactly what the situation was, and what was being done, are you suggesting I should pray and leave it all to God? That is not the God I recognise, God gives me the brains to seek the knowledge for myself, it is provided in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, it is the only reference I have and need, it is not a book of chants and spells to be recited and for intricate ceremonies with nice smells and fires, it is wisdom to be learned and to be used.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38357

L- The above is you saying, you were either going to pray or do some research. But, why not do both ? No one is sayiing for you to just sit and pray, but you can still pray for hope and do your research. No one is telling you that a prayer is your magic formula. Prayer is what you and only you make it.

But, everyone has different needs at different times in their life. So, I don't have any problem with anyone asking to pass their exams, get the scholarship or job ...etc...etc...
THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. IF THAT'S HOW YOU PRAY AND TALK TO GOD, THEN FINE..... WHY SHOULD WE JUDGE AND SAY IT'S WRONG OR A WASTE OF TIME!!!!

H-Sorry, I say it is wrong, lets stop learning altogether and just chant and meditate and ask God for help?

And what happens when a wish is granted, when as prayer is heard? it is human nature then to put everything on the prayer and nothing on the learning, the wisdom, is this right?
L-Again, no one is saying you don't learn or use wisdom. Prayer is somethong you do from within, along with all activities done from outside. NO-one is sayong only act from within or the outside.

Praying helps us devolop spirituality, no doubt and spirituality helps strengthen the prayer.- This is why most of us are more than happy when a Gianni does the ardaas mentioning our prayer or outcome. Because, we regard the gianni as more spiritual, regardless of wether he actually is or not.

H-Learning helps us develop spirituality, I do not believe any God wishes us to be beholdent to it, if anything surely God wishes us to learn and become wise, how is prayer going to make us wise? it is only going to confuse us and sideline our thinking.

L- learning is a huge element of life from birth to the last breath.Why are you saying that only learning helps develop spirituality ? Any spirituality you have, is it all attained from learning and learning solely ??

So, the answer to Harryji's question 'if sikhs should pray ?' is simply -YES- as it helps condition ones spiritually and vice versa, saying No- isn't going to help at all, afterall, there is nothing to lose or any negative effects of praying, no harm can ever be done by it. But you can do more harm to yourself in terms of spirituality by denying the need to pray.

H-Sorry I remain unconvinced, there are many negative aspects to prayer, a belief in ritual, superstition and magic for one as against a belief in simple universal truth and order.

It is the difference between fate and Hukam.

L- What negative aspects ? You mean false hopes ? That is not the same thing.
Like I said, if you assume prayer is a magic formula, then you have the wrong idea.-Talking to God, does not guarantee a magic answer.
Tell me of someone who has caused themselves harm with prayer ?

You seem to be mixed up with hope, prayer and magic miracles. You need to distinguish between the three and understand that prayer is talking to God, based on hopes you have.
At the end of the day it's personal, wether you do it or not. We have no right to judge and say that one is wasting their time or to be critical for that matter.
You may feel there is no need to pray know. But we shouldn't deny it as one day your hopes can all mount up and you will be praying without even realising.

If talking and prayer helps someone to get closer to god and become more spiritual, then I cannot live in denial wether I pray or not.
For the record, I'm being positive with regards to prayer in this post but I, myself, hardly ever pray in the sense of giving a list of requests.
Infact, I only ever ask the lord for strength and wisdom and thank him for all I have already which includes being alive and able bodied, especially after my experiences.

I sense that maybe you have had some No1 hopes without the prayer part. These may have let you down which is why I sense some anger and resentment towards the act of prayer.

Waheguru
Lucky Singh

gurmit kaur mit · #17 (**permalink**) 16-Apr-2012, 09:59 AM

I agree with harry....Tera bhana meetha lage... if you want to do Ardas then ask only for---Har Nam pdarath Nanak mange...or Mangna mangan neeka harjas gur te mangna...the woldly affairs are desided already by Waheguru ji Himself.hona ohi hai jo waheguru ji ne nishchit karke rakhya hai.. jo sade kite karma anusar hi lekhe ch aana hai.Jo waheguru ji karde ne thik hi karde ne...per ik gal hor hai sanu panthak ardas ton vi tutna nhi chahida.Jo Nitnem ton baad savere te shami rehras ton baad ardas sikh rehat maryada vich likhi hai us maryadaton alag hona vi galat hai...Ardas sirf apne karaj di poorti vaste apne swarth vaste hi karni wrong hai. ki pta jini kise chiz di tuhanu lod hai uston jada kise ho prani di vi hove te waheguru tuhade bjaye uhnu dena chahan tan asi apni jidd mari jayiye waheguru ji eh chiz main de nhi tan mera vishvas tere ton uth jayega.. eo jihi ardas totally wrong hai...baki sarbat de bhale di ardas karni jaroori vi hai te panthak ekta vi kayam rakhdi hai.

Ambarsaria · #18 (**permalink**) 16-Apr-2012, 10:13 AM

passingby ji thanks for your post. I have some observations and thoughts for discourse.

I was reading though the quoted Bani in your post as below,

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-s...tml#post163561

I saw the following as focus in these sabads,

ਮਾਨੁ ਤਿਆਗਿ ਹਰਿ ਚਰਨੀ ਲਾਗਉ ...
- A message in humility and recognizing of the creator and so following respectfully
  Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38357

ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੀ ਸਚੁ ਜਾਣੁ ....
- The recognition of the truth as creator's virtues
  Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38357

ਚਿਤਿ ਆਵੈ ਓਸੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ...
- Remembering the supreme creator in the heart

ਰੰਗੁ ਨ ਲਗੀ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ....
- Forsaking of the creator in presence and self realization

ਚਿਤਿ ਨ ਆਇਓ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ...
- Forgetting the creator in the heart

What these tell us is the remembering and non-remembering aspects of the creator in Sikhism. So this is part of being forever aware while warning against lapsing..

Now how does Ardas or Sikh prayer fits into this?

For me it is pretty simple and straightforward.

1. Participating in a Group Prayer/Ardas

A collective recognition of the creator at any given point in time with our fellow humans

Possible support to other in doubt, or seeking support or any other positive purpose

2. Personal Ardas/Prayer

This I find particularly a very personal, intimate and truthful opportunity to remind selves, to have a check point, a marker to observe

Some thoughts that come to mind from my recollections over time that I have silently stated inside of me,

Let me not do bad to others

Wellness for all

May I be guided on a righteous path

May I have the strength to do good for others

etc.

In the above contexts, I find the Ardas or Prayer to be extremely worthwhile and actually quite a "bang for the buck" in terms of its effect and possible value.

Just some thoughts.

Sat Sri Akal.