I'm really confused as to what is being said here. To fully understand the poetry and analogies used in gurbani we must have an understanding of the historical context. Agreed.
Yes this is very important.
Quote:
However, transferring those principles into modern day thinking is not acceptable? Must we stay in the past? A lot of the confusion seems to be caused by struggling to understand when something is literal and when an analogy is being used to improve understanding.
Yes this is also very important. I think this will become more and more important as time goes on.
All I am saying is that let's keep the distinctions, between those two, between the historical and modern interpretations, in place.
Now my question to everyone: Is keeping the distinction a problem in your opinion?
Do share your immediate thoughts or reactions on this issue? We value your views! Login Now! or Sign Up Today! to share your views with us.. Gurfateh!
__________________ “To be is to do”–Socrates.
“To do is to be”–Jean-Paul Sartre.
“Do be do be do”–Frank Sinatra.
-Kurt Vonnegut
The following member appreciates BhagatSingh Ji for the above message.
To understand the message historical knowledge is helpful. However, we live in a very different world so to apply the message to our lives we need to have a modern understanding of that mesagge. I don't think the 2 perspectives are mutually exclusive as without applying what we learn in our lives, we are not following Sikhi.
My additional question is how do we tell when Guru Ji is being literal and when is he using analogies?
jasleen ji
Strange is it not that we make distinctions between past present and future. The Present is born from the Past, and the past is the crucible from which the problems and realities of the present are formed.
Just as the mix of a new compound retains its connection with its original ingredients, so the past transforms into the present and the present becomes the future. We can't understand our present without understanding how past threads continue from past eras, just as we cannot understand the life forms of today without understanding the forms from which they evolved.
And I think that is why we are reminded aad sach, jugaad sach, hai bi sach in Jap ji Sahib. There is no easy way to cut through and say this is past and this is present and this is future and still have a moral truth. A moral truth is not true if it is contingent on this or that time-bound reality. So we have an eternal and everlasting Guru, for all times, and for all humanity.
Unless of course we chose a materialistic understanding of truth.
So in my opinion knowledge of history aids our understanding of the conditions and context under which our Gurus pondered the human conditions. It enriches us in that way. Nonetheless their truth is here for all of us and in each generation to grasp, even 100 years from now. Thanks for motivating my thinking along.
The following member appreciates Narayanjot Kaur Ji for the above message.
Originally Posted by findingmyway To understand the message historical knowledge is helpful. However, we live in a very different world so to apply the message to our lives we need to have a modern understanding of that mesagge. I don't think the 2 perspectives are mutually exclusive as without applying what we learn in our lives, we are not following Sikhi.
My additional question is how do we tell when Guru Ji is being literal and when is he using analogies?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Narayanjot Kaur
jasleen ji
Strange is it not that we make distinctions between past present and future. The Present is born from the Past, and the past is the crucible from which the problems and realities of the present are formed.
Just as the mix of a new compound retains its connection with its original ingredients, so the past transforms into the present and the present becomes the future. We can't understand our present without understanding how past threads continue from past eras, just as we cannot understand the life forms of today without understanding the forms from which they evolved.
And I think that is why we are reminded aad sach, jugaad sach, hai bi sach in Jap ji Sahib. There is no easy way to cut through and say this is past and this is present and this is future and still have a moral truth. A moral truth is not true if it is contingent on this or that time-bound reality. So we have an eternal and everlasting Guru, for all times, and for all humanity.
Unless of course we chose a materialistic understanding of truth.
So in my opinion knowledge of history aids our understanding of the conditions and context under which our Gurus pondered the human conditions. It enriches us in that way. Nonetheless their truth is here for all of us and in each generation to grasp, even 100 years from now. Thanks for motivating my thinking along.
Narayanjot ji & Jasleen ji,
Guru Fateh.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Please allow me to pitch in my 2 cent worth.
The title of the thread is very intriguing to me and I have been thinking about it since it started. The reason it is intriguing is that Sikhi is not an ism like many floating around like helium balloons and many of them deflating.
It is very unique from its concept to its core. It does not label us as sinners. It is not an external imposition like many other dogmatic religions but it instills an internal manifestation which makes us give ourselves time out when we are wrong even before someone yells at us about our own shortcomings.
When I was living in London at the age of 16 and working with my brother in the clothing business, I loved to sell by conversing to people who came to our stalls at Petticoat Lane on Sundays or to our other boutiques on Portobello road and other places. This was in the early 70's. I bought a book from a known book store called W.H. Smith about salesmanship.
One thing that stuck into mind from the book was this:
"A salesman's duty is to create a desire in the customer's mind".
This is what in nutshell our Gurus did. They created a desire in us to breed goodness from the within which can be shared with others. They gave us the tools through Gurbani in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib, our only Guru to become the flowers of this Gurmat garden that emit their scent in all directions, irrespective of anyone's hue, creed or faith. The concept of Sangat and Pangat is one of its many manifestations. The four doors of Darbar Sahib is one more.
Now, coming back to the title of the thread, all present minds are modern during the present times. Our Gurus' minds were modern during their times and the proof is in the treasure we are left with.
Let's check the meaning of Modern so that we can grasp the matter in hand in a better manner.
1mod·ern
adj \ˈmä-dərn, ÷ˈmä-d(ə-)rən\ Definition of MODERN
1 a: of, relating to, or characteristic of the present or the immediate past :contemporaryb: of, relating to, or characteristic of a period extending from a relevant remote past to the present time
2 : involving recent techniques, methods, or ideas :up-to-date
One more word we confuse ourselves with which is discussed in this thread by Bhagat Singh ji that is based on the writings of Dr. Baldev Singh is scientific. Science is nothing but an observational tool.
Let me ask my learned friends a couple of questions.
1. When Guru Nanak rejected to wear the Janeiu, was he being modern or scientific, or both?
2. When Guru Nanak started throwing water towards the west rather than towards the Sun in the east, was he being modern or scientific, or both?
One can ask the same question about the concept of Langar, 4 doors of Darbar Sahib, Miri Piri, life of a household etc. etc.
One can also give many examples from Gurbani- Sidh gosht, for example, and also from the traditional history as given above to show the same.
Bhagat Singh ji writes:
Quote:
Looking at a wider context gives us a better understanding of Guru Nanak. If one looks at Guru Nanak in a vacuum (with just Guru Nanak and God) then one runs into a problem "how do we interpret this?"
The common thing to do is interpret it using the knowledge and philosophies you have learned... the knowledge and philosophies which were not present during Guru Nanak's time... but when you look at history, the knowledge and philosophies of the time, you are using a good strategy to see what Guru Nanak is actually saying. and that's the bottomline, I want to know what Guru Nanak is actually saying, and the closer I can get to that the better.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=32050
Nothing can be looked in a vacuum because there is none. Our past is strung together like beads in a necklace and our present keeps on adding more beads to it. So, the beads of the past are still intact, that is the reason we can add beads of the present.
So, the answer to the question, "Can the modern mind comprehend gurbani?" is re soundly, YES, because we can not escape from our modern mind as the definition above indicates. It is modern now because of our past. And the same would be true for the future generations.
The question may arise, why and how? The answer is in the uniqueness of Gurbani. It is a tool box that would be a dream come true for Freud, Carl Jung,, Bertrand Russell, Blaise Pascal, Issac Newton, Einstein, to name a few.
Gurbani makes us rediscover things about ourselves everyday. A Sikh's journey is about learning, unlearning and relearning, daily. That is the reason we do Nitnem everyday. If we do not find new gems daily in this limitless ore, then there is something wrong with us. This would show that we have become mere ritualistic parrots with one ugly plumage.
Tejwant Singh
Last edited by Tejwant Singh; 03-Sep-2010 at 10:03 AM.
The following members appreciate Tejwant Singh Ji for the above message.
Gurbani makes us rediscover things about ourselves everyday. A Sikh's journey is about learning, unlearning and relearning, daily. That is the reason we do Nitnem everyday. If we do not find new gems daily in this limitless ore, then there is something wrong with us. This would show that we have become mere ritualistic parrots with one ugly plumage.
Tejwant Singh
Dear Tejwant Singh Ji
Many thanks for this
I have learned a lot in my few short months here and have gained new insights via a number of threads to the extent that I think I now disagree with some of the things I may have posted myself in the past!!
So my understanding is changing and I am a much better person for it!
The following members appreciate Seeker9 Ji for the above message.
I have learned a lot in my few short months here and have gained new insights via a number of threads to the extent that I think I now disagree with some of the things I may have posted myself in the past!!
So my understanding is changing and I am a much better person for it!
Seeker9 ji,
Guru Fateh.
We are all in this together. Learning from each other is the true sadh sangat. This sadh sangat is the inspiration that makes people like me to think aloud. We all have the same tool box, the Sri Guru Granth Sahib, our only Guru.
With the help of Gurbani we become the anthropologists of the selves but with one difference, and that is, that the fossils we discover within are the dormant ambers which can be lit with the help of Gurbani. This is the true redisocvery.
So, thanks goes to all because sadh sangat, when intuned becomes the mirror of each other and helps us see our inner nakedness without any shame.
Thanks and regards
Tejwant Singh
PS: As you live in Glasgow. Do you know Parduman Singh Kohli?
Last edited by Tejwant Singh; 03-Sep-2010 at 09:46 AM.
The following member appreciates Tejwant Singh Ji for the above message.
We are all in this together. Learning from each other is the true sadh sangat. This sadh sangat is the inspiration that makes people like me to think aloud. We all have the same tool box, the Sri Guru Granth Sahib, our only Guru.
With the help of Gurbani we become the anthropologists of the selves but with one difference, and that is, that the fossils we discover within are the dormat ambers which can be lit with the help of Gurbani. This is the true redisocvery.
So, thanks goes to all because sadh sangat, when intuned becomes the mirror of each other and helps us see our inner nakedness without any shame.
Thanks and regards
Tejwant Singh
PS: As you live in Glasgow. Do you know Parduman Singh Kohli?
Dear Tejwant Singh Ji
Thanks again
Re Mr P S Kohli, I am certain my Dad knows him - my Dad knows a lot of people in the community and they all know my Dad!!!
That said, if it is the P S Kohli I am thinking of, his 2 sons are local celebrities and are well regarded. They have appeared in comedy shows on both Scottish and UK television channels.
May I ask how you know Mr Kohli and if you know anyone else in Glasgow?
Last edited by Seeker9; 03-Sep-2010 at 04:21 AM.
Reason: forgot something
The following member appreciates Seeker9 Ji for the above message.
Re Mr P S Kohli, I am certain my Dad knows him - my Dad knows a lot of people in the community and they all know my Dad!!!
May I ask how you know Mr Kohli and if you know anyone else in Glasgow?
Seeker9 ji,
Guru Fateh.
Mr. P.S. Kohli belongs to the same town as I do, Ferozepore. He is a family friend and was a very close friend of my eldest late brother Harbhajan Singh Malik who lived in Osterley, near Hounslow. My sister in law still lives there. Mr. Kohli's younger brother, Capt. Charanjit Singh Kohli is my buddy from school. If you happen to meet him, tell him that Teji said hi and ask him to come and join this forum. I am sure he will enjoy it.
The only mind you have is the one you now have, circa 2010 with all the learning and experience gained from the day of your birth. A khalsa in 1699 was in the same shoes, only a few hundred years earlier.
If - to understand gurbani - you must be an historian, a psychologist, a linguist, a sanskrit scholar, a sociologist, a philosopher, any of these alone or in combination, or in combination with life experiences that I have left out - GIVE UP!
Don't even try. There is no point to it. It that is required then the granth has failed as Guru.
Now I come to my main question. When Guru Arjan Dev began the project of compiling the Aad Granth, what was his purpose? Could it have been to compile a book of moral guidance and spiritual inspiration which only a small percentage of the population would benefit from?
What was he up to? Was he on the same path as Lord Rama who would have a Shudra put to death for even listening to the Vedas?
And what was Guru Gobind Singh up to? Could the Guru Granth be understood only by scholars? Or was it eternal guru for the masses of unwashed and illiterate too? Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=32050
I am trying to imagine a poll to be put before the panth in 1699 - as a kind of thought experiment. Khalsa ji, what knowledge is required to understand gurbani? Check all that apply.
a. Sikh history before 1699
b. Sanskrit language
c. Science, in particular knowledge of joons and their transformations
d. The 6 schools of philosophy
e. Knowledge of other religions
f. The ability to decode metaphors
g. Biographies of Nanaks 1 though 5
h. Familiarity with Hindu myth and legend
i. Other. Please tell the panth about it
My choice is "i" Other
ਤੀਰਥਿ ਨਾਵਾ ਜੇ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵਾ ਵਿਣੁ ਭਾਣੇ ਕਿ ਨਾਇ ਕਰੀ ॥ Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=32050
theerathh naavaa jae this bhaavaa vin bhaanae k naae karee ||
If I am pleasing to Him, then that is my pilgrimage and cleansing bath. Without pleasing Him, what good are ritual cleansings?
ਜੇਤੀ ਸਿਰਠਿ ਉਪਾਈ ਵੇਖਾ ਵਿਣੁ ਕਰਮਾ ਕਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਲਈ ॥
jaethee sirath oupaaee vaekhaa vin karamaa k milai lee ||
I gaze upon all the created beings: without the karma of good actions, what are they given to receive?
ਮਤਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਰਤਨ ਜਵਾਹਰ ਮਾਣਿਕ ਜੇ ਇਕ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸਿਖ ਸੁਣੀ ॥
math vich rathan javaahar maanik jae eik gur kee sikh sunee ||
Within the mind are gems, jewels and rubies, if you listen to the Guru's Teachings, even once.
ਗੁਰਾ ਇਕ ਦੇਹਿ ਬੁਝਾਈ ॥
guraa eik dhaehi bujhaaee ||
The Guru has given me this one understanding:
>ਸਭਨਾ ਜੀਆ ਕਾ ਇਕੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸੋ ਮੈ ਵਿਸਰਿ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥੬॥
sabhanaa jeeaa kaa eik dhaathaa so mai visar n jaaee ||6||
>there is only the One, the Giver of all souls. May I never forget Him! ||6|
Last edited by Narayanjot Kaur; 03-Sep-2010 at 05:20 AM.
The only mind you have is the one you now have, circa 2010 with all the learning and experience gained from the day of your birth. A khalsa in 1699 was in the same shoes, only a few hundred years earlier.
If - to understand gurbani - you must be an historian, a psychologist, a linguist, a sanskrit scholar, a sociologist, a philosopher, any of these alone or in combination, or in combination with life experiences that I have left out - GIVE UP!
Don't even try. There is no point to it. It that is required then the granth has failed as Guru.
Now I come to my main question. When Guru Arjan Dev began the project of compiling the Aad Granth, what was his purpose? Could it have been to compile a book of moral guidance and spiritual inspiration which only a small percentage of the population would benefit from?
What was he up to? Was he on the same path as Lord Rama who would have a Shudra put to death for even listening to the Vedas?
And what was Guru Gobind Singh up to? Could the Guru Granth be understood only by scholars? Or was it eternal guru for the masses of unwashed and illiterate too?
I am trying to imagine a poll to be put before the panth in 1699 - as a kind of thought experiment. Khalsa ji, what knowledge is required to understand gurbani? Check all that apply.
a. Sikh history before 1699
b. Sanskrit language
c. Science, in particular knowledge of joons and their transformations
d. The 6 schools of philosophy
e. Knowledge of other religions
f. The ability to decode metaphors
g. Biographies of Nanaks 1 though 5
h. Familiarity with Hindu myth and legend
i. Other. Please tell the panth about it
My choice is "i" Other
ਤੀਰਥਿ ਨਾਵਾ ਜੇ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵਾ ਵਿਣੁ ਭਾਣੇ ਕਿ ਨਾਇ ਕਰੀ ॥
theerathh naavaa jae this bhaavaa vin bhaanae k naae karee ||
If I am pleasing to Him, then that is my pilgrimage and cleansing bath. Without pleasing Him, what good are ritual cleansings?
ਜੇਤੀ ਸਿਰਠਿ ਉਪਾਈ ਵੇਖਾ ਵਿਣੁ ਕਰਮਾ ਕਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਲਈ ॥
jaethee sirath oupaaee vaekhaa vin karamaa k milai lee ||
I gaze upon all the created beings: without the karma of good actions, what are they given to receive?
ਮਤਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਰਤਨ ਜਵਾਹਰ ਮਾਣਿਕ ਜੇ ਇਕ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸਿਖ ਸੁਣੀ ॥ math vich rathan javaahar maanik jae eik gur kee sikh sunee || Within the mind are gems, jewels and rubies, if you listen to the Guru's Teachings, even once.
ਗੁਰਾ ਇਕ ਦੇਹਿ ਬੁਝਾਈ ॥
guraa eik dhaehi bujhaaee ||
The Guru has given me this one understanding:
>ਸਭਨਾ ਜੀਆ ਕਾ ਇਕੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸੋ ਮੈ ਵਿਸਰਿ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥੬॥
sabhanaa jeeaa kaa eik dhaathaa so mai visar n jaaee ||6||
>there is only the One, the Giver of all souls. May I never forget Him! ||6|
Narayanjot ji,
Guru Fateh.
I totally agree with you. We do not have to hop from one time capsule to the other in order to understand Gurbani. The interesting part of Gurbani is that it is for all, no matter how many degrees one may have tucked under his/her arm or none, like myself.
Guru Nanak, the visionary gave us the 3 rules of thumb no matter what level of education one had and they are:
1. Naam Japnah- Remember The Source of all so the connection is never lost.
2. Kirat Karni- Work in an honest manner no matter what one does, from a student to an executive.
3. Vand kei Chaknah- A Sikh shares.Only Ik Ong Kaar gives. So, share whatever one can. A helping hand, a shoulder to lean on,a smile or anything tangible.
If we follow the above rules, and everyone is capable of doing that, then we have practiced what is in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru, no matter if we know how to read or we have read/studied it several times.
This is the beauty of Gurbani. It creates a metamorphosis within by making us princess and princes from paupers.
Regards
Tejwant Singh
The following members appreciate Tejwant Singh Ji for the above message.
Gurfateh ji, you can become a SPN Promoter by Donating as little as $10 each month. With limited resources & high operational costs, your donations make it possible for us to deliver a quality website and spread the teachings of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, to serve & uplift humanity. Every contribution counts. Donate Generously. Gurfateh!
Our Donation Goal
: Why Donate? : Donate Today! : Donate Anonymously (ਗੁਪਤ) : Our Family of Supporters 
.jpg)
.jpg)
Linear Mode
