Are We Making Lame Excuses?

tony · #1 (**permalink**) 14-Oct-2009, 19:47 PM

Harbansj24 ji
In responce to your answer to why girls are dropping the name Kaur and not wanting men with turbans. From the few that i know their reasons are not for what you have said it is because they associate the title and turban as symbols of opression. They fear that the majority of Sikh men are stuck in the indian culture of oppressing females and see the shaven man as having a more westernised view of females. The few that i know where brought up in a traditional Sikh household and watched there brothers going out at night, engouraged to do well at school going on to higher education, allowed to borrow daddies big car to flash at the girls, allowed designer clothes, and they think if bro can then why cant they. As to my own wife her reasons are the same as above, she was supposed to marry a Sikh man who is now an extremely successful business man, Doing far better than myself, yet she says her life is far richer for the freedom she has, the women who did marry him never seems to smile even though they have all the money and comforts a women could wish for. She is suffering from depression and is in a high risk catorgary of suicide, as reported to her doctor where my wife works. My wife also thinks that Sikh men do look very Grand with a turban on just wishes they would treat there princess's like princess.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/27097-are-we-making-lame-excuses.html
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=27097
Tony
P.S. a note to all there is no need to refer to shaven men as clean or dirty, just shaven will do, that way know one is offended, Thank you.

harbansj24 · #2 (**permalink**) 14-Oct-2009, 21:17 PM

Tony ji,

I think there is a vast cultural difference in the Desis and the diaspora. So I sometimes find it difficult to connect. Here in India we have all sorts. It is difficult to label.

harbansj24 · #3 (**permalink**) 14-Oct-2009, 21:30 PM

Good thoughts Simpy ji. Of coarse you are Sikh by choice and not birth. But if you proclaim yourself to be Sikh then IMHO you have to act as our Gurus intended us to. Otherwise one is absolutely free to choose his/her way of life.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=27097
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=27097

As I have said in my post yes we should counsel but if a person is not impressed then we let him be and that does not mean we discard or disown.

kds1980 · #4 (**permalink**) 15-Oct-2009, 04:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tony

Harbansj24 ji
In responce to your answer to why girls are dropping the name Kaur and not wanting men with turbans. From the few that i know their reasons are not for what you have said it is because they associate the title and turban as symbols of opression. They fear that the majority of Sikh men are stuck in the indian culture of oppressing females and see the shaven man as having a more westernised view of females. The few that i know where brought up in a traditional Sikh household and watched there brothers going out at night, engouraged to do well at school going on to higher education, allowed to borrow daddies big car to flash at the girls, allowed designer clothes, and they think if bro can then why cant they. As to my own wife her reasons are the same as above, she was supposed to marry a Sikh man who is now an extremely successful business man, Doing far better than myself, yet she says her life is far richer for the freedom she has, the women who did marry him never seems to smile even though they have all the money and comforts a women could wish for. She is suffering from depression and is in a high risk catorgary of suicide, as reported to her doctor where my wife works. My wife also thinks that Sikh men do look very Grand with a turban on just wishes they would treat there princess's like princess.
Tony
P.S. a note to all there is no need to refer to shaven men as clean or dirty, just shaven will do, that way know one is offended, Thank you.

Dear tony

Its funny How you are painting turbanned sikhs with same brush.By ur assumptions all sikhs are rich and have big cars and they give to their boys.
I am from family where women were always respected and infact in both side's of my family they have quite dominant position.My Cousin sister was loved more than by her brother but Does that mean She is religous or find turbanned sikh men attractive The answer is no.Infact once privately she told me that she hardly found turbanned sikh attractive.

Also i am sorry to say but many times you go by the personnal experiances of Your wife's side.Let me tell you that in sikhism there many communities Like jatts.tarkhan khatri's etc and even between them you will find many things which are very different.Also within communtties people are different.
And don't think that all Indian females are oppressed.their are many women who keep their husbands under their thumb.

Btw You have written one case now let me write one.When I was living in south delhi in the house where i have grown up.We had Punjabi hindu neighbours which were quarrelsome and not at all good people.One of their younger son who was becoming doctor had a love marriage with beautiful sikh Girl who was also a doctor.I still remember that once that guy had an accident and my grandmother went to visit her and was impressed how nice that girl was.But still Their marriage lasted for just 10 years because the guy was a womaniser and we too had heard cases about him.even still I hear that
from my relatives which are living their that he bring call girls.

So does that mean that all clean shaven guys are like this or punjabi hindu's are like this the answer is no.In your case You have written that the wife of some turbanned sikh guy is depressed .Again I am sorry to say but Its their personal matter there are many reasons for depression It does not mean
that turbanned guy is bad

tony · #5 (**permalink**) 15-Oct-2009, 18:37 PM

Karwandeep ji
I wasnt trying to paint all Turbaned Sikhs with the same brush, Just stating the reasons given to me by the Kaurs that I know, Reasons why they have chosen shaven men. Traditional dress to them means traditional behaviour. I know many good turbaned Sikhs in fact all of the Sikhs I know are good decent men who treat their wifes with much respect, but this doesnt change the fact why those Kaurs who chose shaven men did so. Its their reason. As for the one with depression, her reason stated was neglect and bullying, She darent leave him because of the shame it would bring on her family. Honour is hardly a reason to suffer a life of abuse is it, At least if your family are behind you, you have a way out, some one to turn too for help, but unfortunately if she decided to leave him she would be disowned and all alone with no help. You can tell as many flip stories as you like but it wont help these people male or female, it wont change any ones life or end their suffering. Change is wants needed not justification
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=27097
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=27097
Sorry if I offend anyone just personal experiences being told
Tony

kds1980 · #6 (**permalink**) 15-Oct-2009, 18:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tony

Karwandeep ji
I wasnt trying to paint all Turbaned Sikhs with the same brush, Just stating the reasons given to me by the Kaurs that I know, Reasons why they have chosen shaven men. Traditional dress to them means traditional behaviour. I know many good turbaned Sikhs in fact all of the Sikhs I know are good decent men who treat their wifes with much respect, but this doesnt change the fact why those Kaurs who chose shaven men did so. Its their reason. As for the one with depression, her reason stated was neglect and bullying, She darent leave him because of the shame it would bring on her family. Honour is hardly a reason to suffer a life of abuse is it, At least if your family are behind you, you have a way out, some one to turn too for help, but unfortunately if she decided to leave him she would be disowned and all alone with no help. You can tell as many flip stories as you like but it wont help these people male or female, it wont change any ones life or end their suffering. Change is wants needed not justification
Sorry if I offend anyone just personal experiences being told
Tony

Again I am sorry to say but kaurs that are saying this are giving lame excuse.
many times we justify our actions by giving excuses and there are not 1 but million excuses available when we don't want to do anything.Keeping Turban and beard also show committment to faith infact bad boys are the first that discard turban first and engage in bad activities.

harbansj24 · #7 (**permalink**) 15-Oct-2009, 21:40 PM

Quote:

infact bad boys are the first that discard turban first and engage in bad activities.

Kanwardeep ji,

I wouldn't that this is true all the time; but yes it is true most of the time.

kds1980 · #8 (**permalink**) 16-Oct-2009, 00:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harbansj24

Kanwardeep ji,

I wouldn't that this is true all the time; but yes it is true most of the time.

I agree with you That it is true not all the time .after reading tony ji's post I was surprised ,sad and even angry at women who spread these Type of rumours Just to justify their action.I don't think there is even 1% of truth in that Turbanned sikhs treat their wives worse than clean shaven sikh men or vice versa.

Mai Harinder Kaur · #9 (**permalink**) 16-Oct-2009, 01:21 AM

I think there is an unfortunate, but perhaps unavoidable, tendency to generalise.

Mani was most definitely a turbaned Sikh, and I couldn't have asked for a better husband, partner, friend. I really can't say about others. I rather imagine that Sikh husbands, turbaned or not, conform to Mai's Law: 10% are really good, 10% are really bad, and the others are in between just doing the best they know how. (The same would be true, of course, about Sikh wives.)
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=27097
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=27097

Most of us, myself included, really do kind of muddle through life, handling things as best we can when they come up. Taking a Hukamnama is really helpful with this. I'd like to think we Sikhs do better than the average - after all, we have Naam and Guru ji and all the rest - but I don't think we do. Sorry.