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Are We Making Lame Excuses?

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by tony, Oct 14, 2009.

  1. tony

    tony
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    Harbansj24 ji
    In responce to your answer to why girls are dropping the name Kaur and not wanting men with turbans. From the few that i know their reasons are not for what you have said it is because they associate the title and turban as symbols of opression. They fear that the majority of Sikh men are stuck in the indian culture of oppressing females and see the shaven man as having a more westernised view of females. The few that i know where brought up in a traditional Sikh household and watched there brothers going out at night, engouraged to do well at school going on to higher education, allowed to borrow daddies big car to flash at the girls, allowed designer clothes, and they think if bro can then why cant they. As to my own wife her reasons are the same as above, she was supposed to marry a Sikh man who is now an extremely successful business man, Doing far better than myself, yet she says her life is far richer for the freedom she has, the women who did marry him never seems to smile even though they have all the money and comforts a women could wish for. She is suffering from depression and is in a high risk catorgary of suicide, as reported to her doctor where my wife works. My wife also thinks that Sikh men do look very Grand with a turban on just wishes they would treat there princess's like princess.
    Tony
    P.S. a note to all there is no need to refer to shaven men as clean or dirty, just shaven will do, that way know one is offended, Thank you.
     
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  3. harbansj24

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    Re: Kaur Power

    Tony ji,

    I think there is a vast cultural difference in the Desis and the diaspora. So I sometimes find it difficult to connect. Here in India we have all sorts. It is difficult to label.
     
  4. harbansj24

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    Re: Kaur Power

    Good thoughts Simpy ji. Of coarse you are Sikh by choice and not birth. But if you proclaim yourself to be Sikh then IMHO you have to act as our Gurus intended us to. Otherwise one is absolutely free to choose his/her way of life.

    As I have said in my post yes we should counsel but if a person is not impressed then we let him be and that does not mean we discard or disown.
     
  5. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    Re: Kaur Power


    Dear tony

    Its funny How you are painting turbanned sikhs with same brush.By ur assumptions all sikhs are rich and have big cars and they give to their boys.
    I am from family where women were always respected and infact in both side's of my family they have quite dominant position.My Cousin sister was loved more than by her brother but Does that mean She is religous or find turbanned sikh men attractive The answer is no.Infact once privately she told me that she hardly found turbanned sikh attractive.

    Also i am sorry to say but many times you go by the personnal experiances of Your wife's side.Let me tell you that in sikhism there many communities Like jatts.tarkhan khatri's etc and even between them you will find many things which are very different.Also within communtties people are different.
    And don't think that all Indian females are oppressed.their are many women who keep their husbands under their thumb.

    Btw You have written one case now let me write one.When I was living in south delhi in the house where i have grown up.We had Punjabi hindu neighbours which were quarrelsome and not at all good people.One of their younger son who was becoming doctor had a love marriage with beautiful sikh Girl who was also a doctor.I still remember that once that guy had an accident and my grandmother went to visit her and was impressed how nice that girl was.But still Their marriage lasted for just 10 years because the guy was a womaniser and we too had heard cases about him.even still I hear that
    from my relatives which are living their that he bring call girls.

    So does that mean that all clean shaven guys are like this or punjabi hindu's are like this the answer is no.In your case You have written that the wife of some turbanned sikh guy is depressed .Again I am sorry to say but Its their personal matter there are many reasons for depression It does not mean
    that turbanned guy is bad
     
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  6. tony

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    Karwandeep ji
    I wasnt trying to paint all Turbaned Sikhs with the same brush, Just stating the reasons given to me by the Kaurs that I know, Reasons why they have chosen shaven men. Traditional dress to them means traditional behaviour. I know many good turbaned Sikhs in fact all of the Sikhs I know are good decent men who treat their wifes with much respect, but this doesnt change the fact why those Kaurs who chose shaven men did so. Its their reason. As for the one with depression, her reason stated was neglect and bullying, She darent leave him because of the shame it would bring on her family. Honour is hardly a reason to suffer a life of abuse is it, At least if your family are behind you, you have a way out, some one to turn too for help, but unfortunately if she decided to leave him she would be disowned and all alone with no help. You can tell as many flip stories as you like but it wont help these people male or female, it wont change any ones life or end their suffering. Change is wants needed not justification
    Sorry if I offend anyone just personal experiences being told
    Tony
     
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  7. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    Re: Kaur Power


    Again I am sorry to say but kaurs that are saying this are giving lame excuse.
    many times we justify our actions by giving excuses and there are not 1 but million excuses available when we don't want to do anything.Keeping Turban and beard also show committment to faith infact bad boys are the first that discard turban first and engage in bad activities.
     
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  8. harbansj24

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    Re: Kaur Power

    Kanwardeep ji,

    I wouldn't that this is true all the time; but yes it is true most of the time.
     
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  9. kds1980

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    Re: Kaur Power

    I agree with you That it is true not all the time .after reading tony ji's post I was surprised ,sad and even angry at women who spread these Type of rumours Just to justify their action.I don't think there is even 1% of truth in that Turbanned sikhs treat their wives worse than clean shaven sikh men or vice versa.
     
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  10. Mai Harinder Kaur

    Mai Harinder Kaur
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    Re: Kaur Power

    I think there is an unfortunate, but perhaps unavoidable, tendency to generalise.

    Mani was most definitely a turbaned Sikh, and I couldn't have asked for a better husband, partner, friend. I really can't say about others. I rather imagine that Sikh husbands, turbaned or not, conform to Mai's Law: 10% are really good, 10% are really bad, and the others are in between just doing the best they know how. (The same would be true, of course, about Sikh wives.)

    Most of us, myself included, really do kind of muddle through life, handling things as best we can when they come up. Taking a Hukamnama is really helpful with this. I'd like to think we Sikhs do better than the average - after all, we have Naam and Guru ji and all the rest - but I don't think we do. Sorry.

    :ice:
     
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  11. tony

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    Re: Kaur Power

    Kanwardeep ji
    They arent just lame excuses. Just because they chose to try to make something of their lives doesnt mean they turned their backs on Sikhism, Its the other way round its the Sikh families and the Sikh community that turn their backs on the Girls/Boys. Because they see turbans as cultural and associate culture with restriction it must have some grounding somewhere. They dont just wake up and decide its not for me. Some thing over a long period of time sets these people against there own culture. And just because its the norm doesnt make it right. Sikh women all over the world are suffering in loveless marriages, Being told its their duty to make them work or the shame it will bring on their families. How much Shame did Guru Nanak ji bring on his Family when he refused that thread, Did he care what any one thought of him, The founder of Sikhism, the founder of true equality, The founder of freedom of choice and still we Sikhs havent got the message. The SHAME it bring on Sikhism. Sorry but the culture has no place in Sikhi.
    May be if the traditional Sikhs where more tolerant and display an image of equality and freedom then more of our children would keep the sikh faith, more boys wearing turbans, less Girls cutting their hair. Let the turban become a symbol of freedom not restriction.
    Tony
     
  12. kds1980

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    Re: Kaur Power

    How can you say that these are not lame excuses.I was born and raised in Punjabi family and I very well know nature of punjabi people.To justify their actions people can say anything and blame anything.Show me the proof that turbanned sikh husbands are worse than clean shaven or ask women who spread these rumours.

    Tony ji I am sorry but I think you don't understand Human nature.Minorities always have strong desire to fit in.When a sikh girl grow up she see's in bollywood,hollywood serials etc heroes as clean shaven youths obviously this impact lots on her mentality so like their non sikh friends some of them too could desire to have marriage with clean shaven man.And to justify this they can easily say this excuse that turbaned sikh husbands do not treat their wives well.

    Also is it not true that majority of women of world irrespective of religion do not like facial hair on men?

    Please do not bring Guru's into discussion anyone can justify his /her actions by bringing lives of guru's
     
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  13. harbansj24

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    Re: Kaur Power

    Yes, Where is the comparison? Guru Nanak ji sacrificed for mankind.
    What good are these so called "rebels" doing for any group or cause save their own selfish interests?
    And yes, anybody is free to walk away from Sikhi, but if one chooses to call himself/herself a Sikh, then obviously he has to follow some accepted norms of being a Sikh.
     
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  14. tony

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    Re: Kaur Power

    Kanwardeep ji
    No one has said they are worse than others, they just want the right to choose their live partners, nor have i said the majority of ladies dont like facial hair, but if you want prove that abuse is rife in asian cultures including Sikhi then have a look at the threads breaking the silence around punjabi women and womens empowerment on this forum. On the womens empowerment one take a look at the list of agencies just in the U.S of support, if it wasnt rife why are they so busy. Sikhs are supposed to be better than the rest, not adopt an attitude of well were no worse. What was the point of saving our females from the muslims if your just going to enslave them as they would.
    harbansj24 ji
    An example of what one of these so called rebels is doing for any group would be Jasvinder Sanghera, Helping to save women who are being abused by men and vice versa, What have you done to help others on that scale, Who said these girls have turned there back on Sikhi think you will find its the other way round ,Sikhs turned their backs on these girls. Accepted norms whose accepted norms, none written for any one to see in our religious scriptures. in the eyes of god were all equal with or without turban exterior doesnt matter, thats written. Where does it say that an arrange marriage is the norm where does it say its ok to abuse your partner, where does it say you cant have a love marriage, tell where have these girls or men gone wrong in the SGGS, Whos to say that the hair cutters arent the ones following the right path. To please God follow the SGGS thats whats required of a Sikh, The rest is just show and why should they prove what they are doing is right when you cant prove what your doing is right.
    Why not use Guru jis lives as examples I thought thats why they behaved that way, to set an example.
    Defending the abuse is what your doing in a thread to promote Kaur power. The majority of Sikhs in England are realising that women have the right to choose and granting it. their daughters are still marrying other Sikhs but for love not because they are forced to for Honour
    Tony
     
  15. harbansj24

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    Re: Kaur Power

    Tony ji,

    What I am or I am not doing is not necessary to elaborate here. Neither has anybody asked you what you are doing. Neither is it anybody's contention that it is the sole monopoly of Keshdharis only to do good or that Keshdharis do not abuse women. You know and I know that such statements are absurd. For every Jasvinder that you cite, you know and I know several Kaur or Singh examples can be given

    The whole thing started with the title Kaur Power. As the title implies, Kaur implies women who retain the name Kaur. Otherwise the title could as well have been women power, then all these questions would not have arisen.

    Now coming to the point that where is it written that Sikhs need to keep kesh? Are you suggesting that one fine morning without any rhyme or reason some Sikhs got together and decided to keep kesh and imposed their will on unwilling people?

    You must be knowing that Punjab and Haryana High Court had ruled a few months back that as far as the Govt work is concerned only Keshdharis are considered as Sikhs. The Supreme Court did not find any cause to interfere with the judgment.

    I repeat, it is not a question that if you do not have kesh you cannot do good. The question is that if you do not keep kesh are you entitled to be called a Sikh.

    Lets put it this way, that if you want to do good and you also want to be called a Sikh, then why not keep Kesh? What are the barriers? what forces you not to keep kesh especially when the highest legal authority has given a ruling?
     
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  16. Mai Harinder Kaur

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    Re: Kaur Power


    I feel the need to point out that no one is really Sikh "by birth." If we are Sikh, it is by choice. Some of us were blessed to be born in Sikh families and some Guru ji called from other communities, but in any case, it is a choice.

    :ice:
     
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  17. Mai Harinder Kaur

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    As for keeping kesh or not keeping kesh, that is a personal decision.

    I have noticed, however, that I rarely make excuses for actions I feel good about. Excuses are usually made when I feel guilty or defensive.

    When I do something I feel good about, I don't much care what others think.

    But maybe that's just me.

    :ice:
     
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  18. Astroboy

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    Tony Ji,

    From what I understand women, the way a man dresses is not top priority. So long as he is neat, tidy and well groomed, he is fine. Women don't have a problem with his attire. What women find attractive in a man (regardless of race) is his confidence. I have had success with women of all races because I have learnt how to be a confident dude.
    If you need more info, check out Alpha Male Personality.
     
  19. kds1980

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    Tony ji

    All this discussion between you and me started with point that some women are saying that Clean shaven sikh men give more freedom to wives than turbaned sikhs which is lame excuse.

    There is no discussion about whether there is abuse of women or not in sikh community
    There is abuse and it is wrong and not at all justified whetehr you are turbaned or not.
    The proof i have demanded is that is their any study or anything that prove this point that turbaned sikh men are worse husbands than clean shaven sikh men.

    Btw in UK there are cases of sikh girls marrying to muslims and converting to islam now are you going to say that islam gives more freedom to women
     
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  20. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    Guru Nanak ji refusing to wear the Janeau..and a Kaur refusing to use her name or refusing to marry a dastar dharee sikh are Galaxies apart.

    I have no idea how the dastaar is a sign of repression...maybe i am in a world of my own.It was the Indians who were repressed for a thousand years...no turbans,( a nanga head/uncovered head is a sign of slavery/sadness/bad news etc...in the olden days if anyone came home with head unocvered everyone knew it was bad news..some death or soemthing)..no weapons..no horses..not even a donkey...and Guru Gobind Singh made it mandatory for His SIKHS to wear dastaar, ride a horse, have weapons. NONE of the Indians amde any moves to "fight" this oppression..1000 years of slavery..it had to wait for GURU NANAK and his refusal to wear the JANEAU to sound the horn for FREEDOM.

    A Lame Excuse remains a lame excuse even if couched in flowery language. The truth is there is FREEDOM to choose. Some choose to wear dastaars and wear the Honour of Kaur/Singh proudly..others DONT. OK. whats the problem ?? Just click on to WHY I CHOSE SIKHISM dot com..and read all about those who wear dastars and wear Kaurs proudly....perhaps the others need to have a website..WHY I DONT CHOSE SIKHISM...and dont wear dastaar/Kaur in my name...
     
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  21. tony

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    Kanwardeep ji
    I gave you the reasons why those kaurs chose clean shaven men. Seems its hard for you to understand, I'll explain it other way. If when you are growing up a dog of a particular breed is aggressive towards you and bites you, when you are old enough to get your own would you go out and buy a dog of that breed or would you get yourself a dog of what appears to be a less aggressive breed. Doesnt mean that the dog of your choose isnt going to bite you. These girls grew up in a traditional family enviroment and their experiences where they were treated less favourably to there brothers, none where subject to physical abuse but all where subject to mental abuse, pressure was put on them to conform to the old ways of the girl doing her duties. threats of disownment, not being allowed out of the house without a brother with them. they watched there older sisters in loveless marriages being disrespected, they chose not to follow them and because of their choice they where disowned. they didnt disown their families it was the families that disowned them, they didnt disown Sikhi, It was the Sikhs who disowned the girls, name calling, old friends not being allowed to talk to them, sisters not even acknowledging them in the streets. darent go to the Gudwara because of the gossiping about them. They didnt do anything anti-Sikh, Yet Sikhs refuse to acknowledge them.
    Gyani ji
    quite agree it was Guru Nanak ji who souned the horn of freedom, but has it been another 500 years and still women arent treated as full equals in Sikhi, Explain where the pride in wearing a turban/Singh/ Kaur is in that please, I chose Sikhi as an individual spiritual journey, not to look good, not because I had a identity crisis or needed to belong to a particular group, My journey is purely for spiritual reasons, My appearance has nothing to do with my spirituallity. Appearances are deceptive. When I chose Sikhi it was to learn how to conduct my life in accordance with Gods will. When I read the SGGS it mentioned nothing of a certain type of attire in fact quite the opposite it clearly states that it has nothing to do with spirituallity. Through the SGGS I have learnt to treat all as equals, reguardless of caste, race, sex or appearance, Turban wearers or not all are the same in the eyes of God, Yet since joining this forum and in the big wide world out side of it, it has become apparent that I'm judged along with all the other haircutters as less of a Sikh than the hair growers, It is assumed that I'm further back along the trail than others because my hair is short and my head is with out a turban. I'm honourless, my appearance is lacking identity, no knows what i am, what religion I follow. No one that is except God, He knows if I'm pure of heart and thought, He and only he matters when it comes to judging me, I only care what he thinks of me. Why dont I have hair/ wear turban/ have Singh as my name its probably because of the fear of becoming like yourself and others like you, Judgmental, I'd probably become so proud of my appearance that I would forget why I was a Sikh and start insulting others who havent got long hair, I'd become like the Singh at the shop and not want to speak to myself,
    The reasons for my lack of hair and the reasons given for the girls are valid provable reasons for our choices that we have made, Mine is sustainable and stated in the SGGS, appearance not required for spirituallity, theirs is proven in the fact that they are disowned. So whats your LAME EXCUSE for why you judge us for not having the same appearance as yourself, for saying we have no Honour or pride, Whats the LAME EXCUSE for the girls families disowning them for not wanting to be in a loveless marriage, for the honourable Sikhs who gossip about them at the Gudwara. Whos got the LAME unprovable EXCUSES, Who really wears the label of SHAME. I eagerly await your responces as lame as they might be
    Tony
     
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