Contradictions of Opinion

Thank you , I don´t deserve this.

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By pre-ordained destiny, I have met with the Guru. I have entered into the realm of the Lord's Love. (13-9, raag gaurbi purbi, mehlaa 4)

ok, just a couple of things i have to mention... actually, one very important aspect of bana is that we are SUPPOSED to stand out in a crowd. we are supposed to be readily recognized so people can find us for assistance. we are never allowed to hide from danger or anything else, we must stand and face every injustice. our bana makes us equals, makes us kings and queens. in Guru ji's time, only rulers could wear Turbans. only certain castes could carry weapons. Guru ji gave EVERY Sikh a turban, a crown, making us ALL rulers. and making us all equals. (this really upset the mughals, by the way! lol...)

so in a way, it is for others as well as for us.


also, one thing no one has mentioned in this thread is the concept of Miri/Piri - Sant/Saphai. if we ONLY focus on the exterior, we're missing half of the equation. however, the opposite is also true. if we ONLY focus on "being Sikh on the inside" (as many people like to say), we're also missing half of what it means to be Sikh.

just a thought.

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The Panj Piare are Guruji's own saroop. The Panj Piare is Guru. When Dasam Pita Ji invested Gurgaddhi into Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, he also invested it into Panj Piare and the Khalsa Panth. You mention legalism and rules as straying off the path. Yet Gurbani is not manmade legalism and rules, its Guruji's hukam. When we stray from Guruji's hukam, we are off Guruji's path. Dasam Pita Ji did not include his own bani into Shabad Guru Ji. But it is still bani. And it is still the Panthic tradition. And there are still supportive sources to corroborate what Dasam Pita Ji said about the Khalsa. The Panj Piare was invested with Guruship when Guruji selected the 5 beloved ones and Himself bowed down to them. It's not a bureaucracy, it's a path with pyaar! Panj Piare make corporate decisions for the Panth.

Those rules you're talking about, that you say is "legalism" that overtakes us, is that the Rehit Maryada you're refering to? The code of conduct given to all amritdhari Sikhs? Because if your challenging the legitimacy of Sikh institutions such as the Panj Piare, the Khalsa, the Rehit Maryada, then you're also challenging the basis for Gurgaddhi of Shabad Guru Ji, since Shabad Guru was invested at the same time as Panj Piare. And as I said before, the bani of Satguru Gobind Singh Ji was not included in Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. So what do you base you belief in Gurgaddhi of Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji on?

Without some authoritative basis for definitions of Gurmat, no one can establish anything. So when some dedhari Indian government sponsored Hindutva cult comes along and says they have Sikh Satguru Ji... How do we prove they're not right and we should not all go join their cult? If Sikhs can't use authoritative definitions for fear of being legalistic... then nothing at all is clear about Sikhism. And anyone can say anything.

Thank you! This was a very good explanation.

how could the panj piare administer Amrit to Guru Gobind Singh ji if they were simply five men? they are given the AUTHORITY of Guru ji, when administering Amrit. after the conclusion of the Amrit sanchar they go back to being regular (or rather extraordinary ) Gursikhs.

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Harjas Kaur Khalsa,
Are the Panj Piare human beings? Do they instruct you not to take any as savior other than the Gurus? How, then, can you say they ARE Guru? Doesn't that mean you are taking them as savior, exactly as they instructed you not to?

This is my question.

My opinions about legalism are just my own and we will not agree on that. But I would appreciate if you had an answer to the above question.

Thank you Respectfully,

caroline

I understand this action as a symbol of humility and oneness. No one is high or low. There are many examples of royal, or holy teachers, leaders, prophets etc, serving people who would be considered lower than them as a symbol of proper humility and equality. Just like the 4 doors on the Golden Temple and the sharing of food in the gurdwara. (I won't mention the examples from other religions but you know what I'm thinking anyway. )

That's how I understand it. Not that they were transformed to deities or Guru.

I am not questioning the legitimacy of the panj piare, I am questioning what sounded to me like an implication of their deity.

Quote:

The door to liberation is the dasm duar. Naam Japna is the engine of our spiritual practice because the Naam Gurmatara we are given has the power to clean our subtle energy channels and pierce through the barriers in our 6 chakras allowing the energy to ascend and unlock the tenth gate, crown chakra. Only rehitvaan Gursikh Panj Piare who are Naam abiyaasi's can impart to someone the technique of Naam drirh at Amrit sinchaar. No one but Panj Piare can impart this technique. So is it fair to assume that nobody achieved this level of consciousness before the establishment of the first Khalsa?

ਤਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਪਾਏ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਵਖਾਣੈ ॥੧॥
thaa prabh paaeae gur sabadh vakhaanai ||1||
And yet, if he chants the Word of the Guru's Shabad, he finds God. ||1||

ਗੁਰ ਸੇਵਾ ਕਰਉ ਫਿਰਿ ਕਾਲੁ ਨ ਖਾਇ ॥
gur saevaa karo fir kaal n khaae ||
So serve the Guru, and you shall not be consumed by death.
~SGGS Ji p. 231

ਐਸੀ ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਇਕ ਰਾਮਿ ਉਪਾਈ ॥
aisee eisathree eik raam oupaaee ||
Such is Maya, the woman, which the One Lord has created.

ਉਨਿ ਸਭੁ ਜਗੁ ਖਾਇਆ ਹਮ ਗੁਰਿ ਰਾਖੇ ਮੇਰੇ ਭਾਈ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
oun sabh jag khaaeiaa ham gur raakhae maerae bhaaee || rehaao ||
She is devouring the whole world, but the Guru has saved me, O my Siblings of Destiny. ||Pause||

ਪਾਇ ਠਗਉਲੀ ਸਭੁ ਜਗੁ ਜੋਹਿਆ ॥
paae thagoulee sabh jag johiaa ||
Administering her poisons, she has overcome the whole world.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹਾਦੇਉ ਮੋਹਿਆ ॥
brehamaa bisan mehaadhaeo mohiaa ||
She has bewitched Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਲਗੇ ਸੇ ਸੋਹਿਆ ॥੨॥
guramukh naam lagae sae sohiaa ||2||
Only those Gurmukhs who are attuned to the Naam are blessed. ||2||
~SGGS Ji p. 394

ਈਸਰੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਸੇਵਦੇ ਅੰਤੁ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਨ ਲਹੀਆ ॥
eesar brehamaa saevadhae anth thinhee n leheeaa ||
Those who serve Shiva and Brahma do not find the limits of the Lord.

ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਅਲਖੁ ਹੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪ੍ਰਗਟੀਆ ॥
nirabho nirankaar alakh hai guramukh pragatteeaa ||
The Fearless, Formless Lord is unseen and invisible; He is revealed only to the Gurmukh.
~SGGS Ji p. 516

Quote:

Is Guruji capable of imparting Naam to whom he pleases? I thought this was something that came from inside and not outside and was only imparted to us by the Guru's grace. Kind of like this: YouTube - What is Guru? Thanks for your patience

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਸਿਖ ਕਉ ਨਾਮ ਧਨੁ ਦੇਇ ॥
sathigur Sikh ko naam dhhan dhaee ||
The True Guru gives His Sikh the wealth of the Naam.
~SGGS Ji p. 286

The Panj Piare are Guruji's sargun saroop. So when the Panj impart Naam to us, it's Guruji who does this. No one can get it any other way since Guruji doesn't have a dedhari form any longer. If it came from the inside and not the outside it would already be ours, how could it be implanted in you? It's like shaktipat. It comes from Guru.

Interesting. Intermediaries. Like Sikh priests passing out the body of Christ.

Wow. There are so many different philosophies the Sikh community.

Thank you for your explanation.