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Post from a different forum on Tat Khalsa/Sanatan Sikhism

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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 29-Feb-2012, 09:23 AM
Kamala's Avatar Kamala Kamala is offline
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Post from a different forum on Tat Khalsa/Sanatan Sikhism

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I came eupon a post from a different forum and want to know what you guys think.. by no means am I trying to get the origonal poster in trouble and if you have a small mind please do not read the following:

Quote:
Warning: The Tat Khalsa Sikhs may want to skip reading this post.

It was a personal quest to learn about the Hindu-Sikh acrimony which led me to gather the following information. It is by no means meant to hurt or disrespect anyone, and the Tat Khalsa Sikhs should heed the above warning. Also, the interested readers may access more information at the two links provided below, and from additional material available on the internet, to draw their own conclusions.

The Sanatan Sikhs regard Classical Sikhism – which arose from the Sanatan Dharma and Vedic culture - to be a denomination of Sanatan Dharma. In the early days of Sikh history, the Gurudwaras were managed by Mahants (caretakers). Frescos of Hindu deities, murtis of Hindu deities as well as images of Sikh gurus formed part of the sanctum. When Punjab fell under the British rule, hordes of missionaries moved in to harvest the lost souls in the name of Jesus. A Sikh religious administrative body, Sanatan Sikh Sabha was established in 1873 by Sikhs in Amritsar to counter the rising influence of, and conversion to Christianity.

The British Raj ruled by creating divisions through tactics which included altering and editing scriptures to divide and conquer and keep the populace subjugated, ignorant and subservient. All forms of Indian Nationalism and unifying aspects like religion were manipulated and suppressed. It is alleged that Max Arthur McAuliffe, the British Deputy Commissioner of Punjab, saw an opportunity with the establishment of Sanatan Sikh Sabha and engineered the formation of a second Sabha, Tat Khalsa (the 'True Khalsa') Singh Sabha in Lahore in 1879, as a political rival to the Sanatan Sikh Sabha. Whereas the Sanatan Dharma Sikhism acknowledges its roots in the Vedic culture and believes in Hindu-Sikh unity; the Tat Khalsas are focused more on having a Sikh identity, separate from the non-Sikh Punjabis. So, the motive for the formation of this Tat Sabha were primarily to push Sikhs over to a pro-Muslim stance, put a wedge between the Sikhs and non-Sikh Punjabis thereby weakening the Hindus, and also to propagate the belief among the Sikh soldiers serving the Raj that their Guru’s prophecies coincided with the interests of the British Raj. It was a deliberate act in their “divide and rule” tactics and to get the Tat Khalsa Sikhs to be loyal to the British Raj.

Soon after their establishment, the Tat Khalsas with the institutional support of the British Raj, started easing out the mahants from the management of the Gurudwaras; using force when needed. To promote a Sikh identity separate from the former glory of Hindu-Sikh days, a reform movement was initiated - older source material was suppressed, marginalized, denied, invalidated or even, as in case of Gurbilas, banned outright. Sikh scriptures were reinterpreted to expunge any hint of Hindu-ness in them. All Hindu frescos and murtis were removed from the Gurudwaras and all practices deemed to be Hindu were discontinued. In 1905, the murtis removed from the Golden temple included lifesized murtis of Lord Vishnu, of Chandi-Durga, of Lord Krishna, and of Guru Ram Das Sodhi.

Over the last few decades, the newer generations of Sikhs have been indoctrinated into the Tat Khalsa mold. They have been made to believe that there is a Hindu behind every tree, waiting to see an end to the Sikh religion and that they must maintain and protect a separate identity. They are to conform to owing their allegiance to the Guru Granth Sahibji only, to the total exclusion of all other religious/spiritual literature. This effort has been very successful as most of the mainstream Sikhs today, subscribe to the Tat Khalsa Sabha. Other sects are frowned upon and dealt with harshly, sometimes with the elimination of their leaders. Although, the seat of spiritual authority emanates from the Golden Temple; in North America, there is always a tussle between the conformist and reformist minded Tat Khalsas, which is at times settled violently. Some of the alternate sikh sects are Sanatani, Udasi (ascetics, founded by Sri Chand, Guru Nanak’s eldest son), Nirmal (a scholarly sect), Nirankari, Namdhari (have a living guru), Ramgharia (carpenter community), Mazhabi (Dalits, lower caste converts from the janitor community), Ravidasi (Dalits, lower caste members from the cobbler community) etc.

A murti or a book is an inanimate object. It is only the respect/reverence/faith of a sincere devotee which makes them divine. The devotion of the faithful Sikhs and Hindus, makes the Guru Granth Sahibji and the murtis of Ram and Krishan and other deities worshipable. For either side to deny the presence of the same divine force in a murti or the holy book, is to deny the obvious and to foster separate-mindedness.

Sanatan Sikhi link:
http://www.sarbloh.info/htmls/introduction.html

Tat Khasla Link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tat_Khalsa





Do you agree or disagree with the writer above? Why not share your immediate thoughts with us! Login Now! or Sign Up Today! to share your views... Gurfateh!

Last edited by Randip Singh; 03-Mar-2012 at 01:59 AM. Reason: added wikipedia link
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 29-Feb-2012, 10:40 AM
Kanwaljit Singh's Avatar Kanwaljit Singh Kanwaljit Singh is offline
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Re: Post from a different forum on Tat Khalsa/Sanatan Sikhism

Quote:
The Sanatan Sikhs regard Classical Sikhism – which arose from the Sanatan Dharma and Vedic culture - to be a denomination of Sanatan Dharma. In the early days of Sikh history, the Gurudwaras were managed by Mahants (caretakers). Frescos of Hindu deities, murtis of Hindu deities as well as images of Sikh gurus formed part of the sanctum.
That leads to a question, what do we need Hindu deities for when we have Guru Granth Sahib?

Quote:
All forms of Indian Nationalism and unifying aspects like religion were manipulated and suppressed.
You mean the Hindu Nationalist Movement? We know how popular Sikhs like Bhagat Singh were!

Quote:
Whereas the Sanatan Dharma Sikhism acknowledges its roots in the Vedic culture and believes in Hindu-Sikh unity;
Sikhi believes in unity of humanity not philosophy. But we wish to keep our precious philosophy as Pure and True as possible.

Quote:
Tat Khalsas are focused more on having a Sikh identity
That was kick started by Guru Nanak and brought to life by Guru Gobind Singh.

Quote:
Soon after their establishment, the Tat Khalsas with the institutional support of the British Raj, started easing out the mahants from the management of the Gurudwaras; using force when needed.
Schools need to change the hired teachers when the kids are not scoring well.

Quote:
To promote a Sikh identity separate from the former glory of Hindu-Sikh days, a reform movement was initiated - older source material was suppressed, marginalized, denied, invalidated or even, as in case of Gurbilas, banned outright. Sikh scriptures were reinterpreted to expunge any hint of Hindu-ness in them. All Hindu frescos and murtis were removed from the Gurudwaras and all practices deemed to be Hindu were discontinued.
I think as people mature, they need simpler homes!

Quote:
In 1905, the murtis removed from the Golden temple included lifesized murtis of Lord Vishnu, of Chandi-Durga, of Lord Krishna, and of Guru Ram Das Sodhi.
That was probably to make more room for the sangat as the main hall of Darbar Sahib is not so big!

Quote:
They have been made to believe that there is a Hindu behind every tree, waiting to see an end to the Sikh religion and that they must maintain and protect a separate identity.
It is not must, Sikhs have a separate identity, something you will never understand, you are like standing on India Pakistan border, and you don't wana move from there.

Quote:
They are to conform to owing their allegiance to the Guru Granth Sahibji only, to the total exclusion of all other religious/spiritual literature
Guru Granth Sahib has the penship and blessings of Ten Human Gurus.

Quote:
This effort has been very successful as most of the mainstream Sikhs today
And the article throwing this up means they have a big problem that Sikhs continue to think of themselves as NOT Hindu. It is as if we want this last 2% of the Indian population to be Hindu too. First get the 20% muslims into the fold!

Quote:
Some of the alternate sikh sects are Sanatani, Udasi (ascetics, founded by Sri Chand, Guru Nanak’s eldest son), Nirmal (a scholarly sect), Nirankari, Namdhari (have a living guru), Ramgharia (carpenter community), Mazhabi (Dalits, lower caste converts from the janitor community), Ravidasi (Dalits, lower caste members from the cobbler community) etc.
Sikhism has no sects. And many of these don't consider them to be Sikh sects at all. Why do you want to glue the two together? Do you have too much free time?

Quote:
It is only the respect/reverence/faith of a sincere devotee which makes them divine.
A devotee with all the respect, reverence and faith cannot make own mind divine. Making a stone idol divine is very hard to come by.

Quote:
The devotion of the faithful Sikhs and Hindus, makes the Guru Granth Sahibji and the murtis of Ram and Krishan and other deities worshipable.
Sikhs have devotion towards Guru Granth Sahib only. Hindus are there to pray to Ram and Krishan. Neither of the followers make them worship able.

Quote:
For either side to deny the presence of the same divine force in a murti or the holy book, is to deny the obvious and to foster separate-mindedness.
The laptop with which I am writing all this has the same divine force as the murti or anything. What all should I pray to? Guru Granth Sahib has not only the divine force, but Knowledge, which comes only to a chosen few. It seems Kamala ji that you and I are not to be blessed with such insight, for we are trying to help each other out here.

But after reading this post, if you still continue to sell the advantages of being a Hindu-Sikh, I can only say you must be very good at sales.
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 29-Feb-2012, 12:22 PM
prakash.s.bagga's Avatar prakash.s.bagga prakash.s.bagga is offline
 
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Re: Post from a different forum on Tat Khalsa/Sanatan Sikhism

KAMLA Ji,
You should realise the teachings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and then you can decide the scope of any such deities along with Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji .
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sanatan-sikhism/38149-post-different-forum-tat-khalsa-sanatan.html
In fact NANAKs teachings are all related to tell what these dieties actually meant and what is the REAL MURATi one should worship.Try to know this MURATi which NANAK is mentioning in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
Once yu become familiar with this MURATi as envisaged in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji all your confusions go away.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38149
Prakash.S.Bagga
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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 29-Feb-2012, 13:33 PM
Luckysingh's Avatar Luckysingh Luckysingh is offline
 
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Re: Post from a different forum on Tat Khalsa/Sanatan Sikhism

Some may agree, many will disagree. But none of us should be ignorant and ignore.

The sanaatanists seem to be very concerned in giving sikhism a repackaged identity with hindu fundamentals. This is the impression I get.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38149

For the upcoming youth of today, they need to be made aware about the pure undiluted sikhism before they experience other messages.

This movement seems to be on the rise as they have even influenced some so called Nihangs (fake nihangs). These fake nihangs are also promoting sanaatanism by giving acknowledgement to bhang, alcohol, meat and idol worship.
Getting the young youth in this manner can be easier as drinking, clubbing, partying, extra-marital relationships and drug use can be glamourised and justified.
The young youth can easily tag along convincing themselves that it's just a line of sikhism and not quite a classic sect.

We all need to forward our views, my opinion may be wrong and extreme.
But, I feel that their movement too, appears extreme. Correct me and I apologise if any offence is caused.

I firmly believe that Sikhi belongs to the Guru and the Guru only, not hindus,muslims, other faiths, goups or individuals.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38149

I also firmly believe that none of us have the right to decide or dictate what Sikhi is, only the Guru decides what is sikhi. Following the Guru Granth Sahib Ji it can be attained.

Waheguru
Lucky Singh
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 29-Feb-2012, 13:58 PM
prakash.s.bagga's Avatar prakash.s.bagga prakash.s.bagga is offline
 
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Re: Post from a different forum on Tat Khalsa/Sanatan Sikhism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckysingh View Post
Some may agree, many will disagree. But none of us should be ignorant and ignore.

The sanaatanists seem to be very concerned in giving sikhism a repackaged identity with hindu fundamentals. This is the impression I get.

For the upcoming youth of today, they need to be made aware about the pure undiluted sikhism before they experience other messages.

This movement seems to be on the rise as they have even influenced some so called Nihangs (fake nihangs). These fake nihangs are also promoting sanaatanism by giving acknowledgement to bhang, alcohol, meat and idol worship.
Getting the young youth in this manner can be easier as drinking, clubbing, partying, extra-marital relationships and drug use can be glamourised and justified.
The young youth can easily tag along convincing themselves that it's just a line of sikhism and not quite a classic sect.

We all need to forward our views, my opinion may be wrong and extreme.
But, I feel that their movement too, appears extreme. Correct me and I apologise if any offence is caused.

I firmly believe that Sikhi belongs to the Guru and the Guru only, not hindus,muslims, other faiths, goups or individuals.

I also firmly believe that none of us have the right to decide or dictate what Sikhi is, only the Guru decides what is sikhi. Following the Guru Granth Sahib Ji it can be attained.

Waheguru
Lucky Singh

So wshould listen to GuRu about Sikhi from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
GuRu ji is saying about Sikhi as
"Sikhi Sikhiya GuR Sabadu Vichari"
Nothing more nothing less than this .
Prakash.S.Bagga
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 01-Mar-2012, 04:01 AM
Kamala's Avatar Kamala Kamala is offline
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Re: Post from a different forum on Tat Khalsa/Sanatan Sikhism

But from what I have seen, the Guru ji wanted us to be Sanatan; Tat Khalsa was founded after.
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Old 01-Mar-2012, 04:26 AM
Parma's Avatar Parma Parma is offline
 
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Re: Post from a different forum on Tat Khalsa/Sanatan Sikhism

No, sikhism is its own identity to believe in absolute truth, to be pure of the mind, the body and the soul. Nothing else. A firm word to all practicing sikhs that I learnt from Sant singh Maskeen ji. What a great thinker. You are not here to tell them the Katha you are here to just do the katha. Sing it with love how many people stop what they are doing and listen to love songs on the T.V. It captures you its self you cant make people listen to you, you cant make someone love you so why should god. If people want to listen the truth gets into there mind its self, that is not for you to tell them, how do you know that persons way, every persons way, "journey's" are all different some born in poverty others with a silver spoon. If they ask what a word means explain the word. The journey is between god and the individual. God will teach you your own way to him... Waheguru. Just like the love songs of today, sing the glorious words of the gurbani with love.japposatnamwaheguru:
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38149
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38149
Pure of the mind body and soul. Absolute truth even if that means people call me names whatever, no one is born perfect. We are sikh and as such life is a learning curb, who gives a toss what people call you just be truthful no matter what. A kid steals mother asks him did you steal he says yes, gets a smack and when he does wrong again she asks did you do it he says yes and gets a smack. He doesn't learn not to tell the truth! He just learns not to do it again, that is how open to truth you should be stand up for your convictions no matter what. God made you a sikh, you will hopefully with time, in your own time, through the grace of waheguru in your own way learn. Atleast you then dont hide from the truth you then are apart of the truth

Last edited by Parma; 01-Mar-2012 at 04:45 AM.
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Old 01-Mar-2012, 07:53 AM
prakash.s.bagga's Avatar prakash.s.bagga prakash.s.bagga is offline
 
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Re: Post from a different forum on Tat Khalsa/Sanatan Sikhism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamala View Post
But from what I have seen, the Guru ji wanted us to be Sanatan; Tat Khalsa was founded after.
There is no concept of being any Sanatan Sikh .Sanatan word has never been used anywhere in any referennce in Gurbanee.So refering a Sikh as Sanatan is your assumption.
GuRu ji wishes everyone to be GuRMukh only .This you can veryfy from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
Prakash.S.Bagga
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Old 01-Mar-2012, 09:15 AM
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Re: Post from a different forum on Tat Khalsa/Sanatan Sikhism

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Not scholarly verified but it appears merger has not been accepted by Kamala ji for the two factions of Sikhs that seeing the damage from Arya Samajis merged way back in 1890s (122 years ago or at least 5 to 6 generations of SIkhs),

Quote:
The original founders of the Singh Sabha Movement were sanatan or ‘Traditional’ Sikhs believing that the paanth certainly consisted of the followers of the Gurus, but had no problem with the Hindu traditions that were creeping in. There were the Sabha of Amritsar of 1873.

The radical Sikhs were the Tat Khalsa centred at Lahore. For the Tat Khalsa it was impossible to be a Hindu and A Sikh, as those of the Sanatan persuasion maintained. The only correct style for a Sikh was that of a Khalsa and although they did not cast out the non-Khalsa variety, they explicitly adopted the view that those non-Khalsa Sikhs were on there way to becoming fully fledged Sikh. In other words they were said to be aspiring to become members of the Khalsa, that is they were Sehaj-dhari ‘s or slow learners.

Ultimately the victory went to the Tat Khalsa and since the early years of the twentieth century Sikhs have been progressively learning three things. First, Sikhs are no Hindus, secondly Khalsa membership should be the objective of all Sikhs and thirdly, the Khalsa membership requires obedience to the Rehat.

Founders of the Sanatan movement were predominantly conservative Sikhs, concerned to sustain and protect the society in which they had been nurtured, this was a society which permitted a variety of Sikh identities and different modes of worship. The Tat Khalsa strongly disagreed with the actions of the Amritsar Singh Sabha. Those with radical opinion drew strength from the educational developments in Lahore. For the Tat Khalsa Sikhism could not possibly be as broad as Sanatan Sikhs believed. Emphatically Sikhs were not Hindus, and Hindu tradition was not what Sikhs should follow.

This dispute simply helped the Arya Samajists, with their leader venting out anti-sikh rhetoric. The threat was real and realising this the two groups merged. Through the Khalsa Diwan it was desired to set up a Sikh college. Cleverly the Singh Sabha aligned themselves with the British in order to gain funds for their educational programme. Some British well wishers even raised money through committees in England. In 1892 enough money was raised to lay the foundation stone of the Khalsa College. The collage made the teaching of Gurmukhi and Sikh scripture compulsory. The college was founded with the notion to challenge the ‘anti-Sikh’ wave that Punjab was harbouring.

Pretty decent article:

Hindu/Sikh adherence disappeared from Sikhs in 1890s. Any comments or are we trying to restart old fights!

Sat Sri Akal.

Last edited by Randip Singh; 03-Mar-2012 at 01:57 AM. Reason: removing link to that site.
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