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1984 Would the Indian Army have entered the Golden Temple without backend Akaali support?

Discussion in 'History of Sikhism' started by maskinji, Jun 2, 2010.

?

Do you think If Akalis had not given active backend support, Army would not have entered Golden Temp

  1. Yes, Since they had planned this massacre quite earlier

    12 vote(s)
    75.0%
  2. No, Akalis did absolutely right by supporting Givt, as Bhindrawale was a terrorist

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Cant Say, I am not aware of the whole build up to the event

    4 vote(s)
    25.0%
  4. I dont care, this is past and does not affect us now.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. Sikhs are making too much of fuss about all this

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
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  1. maskinji

    maskinji
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    Would the Indian Army have entered the Golden Temple without backend Akaali support? Poll !!, its anonymous.

    SSA JI
    I dont have any political prejudice. After analysis of history pertaining to sikhs from 1947 to 1984 and further, I have come to know about certain facts. I wish to know how much sikhs as well as Non-sikhs are aware of this. I request your honest view inspired by facts.
    SSA.
     
    #1 maskinji, Jun 2, 2010
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2010
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  3. spnadmin

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    The title is too long, and it is hard to know what the title is getting at. I am going to change it, and please let me know if I have the right idea. Please also provide some additional information to back up the question you are asking. Without it there will be forum members who have no idea how to reply. Or they may become incensed and a flame war will erupt. Thankx
     
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  4. Archived_Member_17

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    Sat Shri Akaal Everyone,

    My comments on whether the indian army entered Golden Temple with Akali Support?

    Few facts:

    1. There were total of 41 Gurudwaras that Indian Government attacked, not just one. Bhindrawala could not possibly been hiding in all of those.

    2. They made sure to chose a day when Sikh Sangat was present at the Golden Temple in large numbers, shut off the trains leaving Amritsar, surrounded the complex, and did not give the ordinary people chance to leave. Therefore, intent was to cause most damage.

    3. There were peaceful ways available to catch any terrorists such as cutting off water supply, food supply, and electrictiy to the complex. How long could they have survived without these. This would have given the civilians the chance to leave.
    But nothing like this was even tried.

    4. Finally, they took all the literature from the Sikh reference library, and then set the library on fire. We can all agree that no terrorists were hiding in those books. To this day, that material has not been returned. What have they been doing with the literature for all this time? Definitely not finding terrorists in those books.

    The above can make any normal person wonder that may be there was more to it all then just trying to catch some terrorists. For this, we dig up even older Sikh history and other religions' history such as Budhism that have come under attack and see who was really behind the attack, and whether they have been attacking us and others like us before too. The answer is Yes. These are upper caste hindus wanting to keep their superiority over everyone else. They make it very clear in their own literature the following:

    They support the caste system.
    They don't like it when the so called inferior people raise themselves to power.
    They want everyone to be Hindues in that country, that includes Sikhs.
    They have (remember in their own literature), written how systematically they have absorbed Budhism, and are hoping for the same for the Sikhism.
    The creation and promotion of the Dasam Granth is also a seqence of this same attack. So this all is not a simple one event, it goes from generation to generation and in different ways.

    From the above all, it become very clear that the attack was a message to the Sikhs to show them the Hindu power in that country. To weaken the Sikh spirits, and to bring them in line, possibly more submissive to the Hindu power, and acceptable to being absorbed into Hinduism. Destruction of our history by destroying the Sikh reference library also proves this point. All of it is part of one scheme under which they don't want anyone else to raise their head and be submissive to the higher caste hindues.

    Akalis would have very little to do with all this, and I don't think they had that much complexity to understand their enemy anyways, as these hindues are extremely cunning and clever. They use very polite and systematic ways to achieve their evil plans. An uneducated observer would be thinking that Sikhs keep complaining about being attacked, but who is really attacking them, Sikhs appear to be wrestling with ghosts, as the real enemy is so sharp to not even make everything clear and they use sweet and very cleverly chosen words such as our brothers etc. But only the ones who know their real colors, would understand the whole picture.

    I hope this helps.

    Regards,
    Randeep Kaur
     
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  5. spnadmin

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    maskinji

    It occurred to me an hour or so ago that I don't know what you mean by "Akaali support." Are you referring to the support of Nihangs who call themselves Akaali? Or, were you referring to the Akaali political party? Thanks for your help.
     
  6. maskinji

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    Narayanjot Ji,

    I mean the Akali, Political party.
     
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  7. maskinji

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    Randeep kaur ji, thanks for putting forward these facts.

    Also, regarding the akali involvement in the massacre, they are not infants who could not have comprehended the deeds of the enemy. But they have hardly anything to do with the religious world, SGPC is a big corporate for them, from where they could administer whole sikh world. Remember, what analysis the jews came up with after their kristalnacht in germany, Their scholars came up with variuos reasons, along with major factor being the support of Influential Jews to the Hitler, who were in no ways sympathetic to the plight of their people, rather didnt want to leave their properties and business in Germany, as Hitler told them to hand over and leave.

    With time, sikh kaum will come to the conclusion, since who are to be judged are on the throne.

    Their are several facts which would come up with time, as when Maharaj ji would wish.

    I like a statement of Santji very much. Some people say when would be get the khalistan. He answered, when all of us would become khalsa, we would automatically get it. I too find this logical, If we are steadfast in our sikhi, then wherever we are living would be khalistan. After sometime each country or institution falls from its ideals, then why fight over this ?? Lets just be steadfast in Sikhi.
     
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  8. gurpreet_luton

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    the main problem of sikhs is they always think as a sikh just think it as a citizen of nation this kind of incident was happend in HAZRAT BAL DARGAAH (mosque) when these kind os situations rise up security forces has to take only action and they can,t see is it mosque or guru ghar these all happend because of our peoples and i can explain it very well if some one wants
     
    #7 gurpreet_luton, Jun 4, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 4, 2010
  9. gurpreet_luton

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    why we sikhs always keep blaiming others these all happens because of our peoples ..... just think of it what the akakis or govt. has done !!!!!! nothing they just took advantage of our weak nesses
     
  10. gurpreet_luton

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    i remember once i had read in carl marx s book he said religion freedom and all political freedom is use less unless you don,t get the ecnomic reforms i think unless we get ecnomic reforms these kind of massacare will be happened with diffrent faces .... might be you not got my point sorry ​
     
    #9 gurpreet_luton, Jun 4, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 4, 2010
  11. maskinji

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    Gurpreet Ji,

    SSA.

    Please elaborate on this point wise. I shall try to give a reply if suitable. Let us bring both schools of thought together and let readers see what they make out of it. Also, Please state on the base of facts.
     
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  12. gurpreet_luton

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    what i am saying thats ecnomic facy sorry if u don,t got it but the mean of this all is that we should take some steps to get ecnomic reforms because lots of sikhs in india have not enough sources for get education untill we don,t get education we can,t understand our rights to live lots of sikhs has given reply on 84 massacare they all said that they need food not RELIGION so what u expect from them his answer seems odd but this fact have main role
     
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  13. maskinji

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    Gurpreet Ji,

    as I said, I would try to agree or disagree with your viewpoint based on facts.

    You are concerned about the Economic reforms, Truly this is the foremost need for any society. Now here, I shall put forward the stance of Indian govt towards Punjab.

    1. Punjab Farmer gets insecticides, Fertiliser, seeds and other agriculture objects at higher prices than other states. Subsidy is Extremely low. Punjab farmer cannot sell his produce outside punjab, eliminating his chances to gain any of profits which is totally earned by the Lalas on a Jatts produce. This breaks backbone of punjab middle class, majority of population, leading to suicide of Farmers.

    2. Centre does not give any approvals to projects funded and undertaken by state government, while all finances and headache would be by the state government. This would create ample job oppurtunities.

    3. Punjab is interfered by Centre on water issue. Presssure is applied by the Centre to release water to rajasthan and haryana. Maharashtra and gujarat split up but centre did never interfere on water issues. Same with the states in South INdia.

    4. Article 25 of indian constitution says, Sikhs are hindus. But when it comes to army, only 1% reservation is there, instead of around 50% as per sikhs being hindus. Further shortening job chances.

    There are other reasons too which you can research having no inclination to either side. For all this, centre says Punjab is already rich and does not need any support.

    Suggest any ways to get these reforms implemented, if you see any obstacles to these.

    Last but not the least, Amritsar till date has not been given the status of "Sacred City", Navjot singh Sidhu shouted for this in the parliament few months back.

    Waiting for your reply.
     
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  14. Archived_member13

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    Gurfateh ji,

    Least we forget 1984!

    Sikh religion has always served the Humanity but this concept does not goes down well with Brahmin thought. Harmandar Sahib is symbol of existence of Sikh religion and when the existence of a people is attacked then who would hold accountable for this?

    Surely attacking 40 other shrines and choosing the day of holy festival was
    to make Harmandar Sahib a mouse trap for the people to kill innocent people nothing else?

    The facts speak for itself, In last century no holiest place is touched by the their respective govt. because repercussions would be immense as in
    this case no wonder this move was to degrade Sikh religion, kill the language and kill it's history it would bread a new race.

    Many non-Sikhs don't about Sikh religion which has become quite a problem
    people from Muslim or Christan communities propagate their religion at a
    phenomenal rate and the utmost right to do it by holding seminars and
    educate people about their own religion.

    Let alone we can't even propagate Sikhi within our community, Since 1947
    it's absolutely clear that something has really gone wrong Sikhs has been
    branded as Hindus in Indian constitution.

    Attacking Golden Temple at Amritsar is one of the darkest chapters in Sikh
    history and it has made us aware that we need to become united KHALSA
    as said by Sant Jarnail Singh ji, follow the path given by 10 Soverign King,
    only then Khalsa raj will be established, then the whole world will know
    greatness of Sikhi.

    As years pass on and as we remember this traumatic event, We should
    learn from this and be STEAD FAST IN SIKHI.

    Regards

    Gurveen Singh
     
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  15. spnadmin

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    Gurveen Singh ji

    You make so much sense.
     
  16. gurpreet_luton

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    its all true what u said but can some one explain that who will unite us ? those who appears after 5 years with 84 issues or we he peoples participates on web sites with writing articles on 84 ...............WHO ?
     
  17. spnadmin

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    gurpreet_luton ji

    What I sense in your words is the same feeling I have 20 times a day when i read threads in this forum on many, on dozens, of tragic issues. Why are we writing articles and why are we trading thoughts with one another? What good does it do? Or are we fooling ourselves? Are we just helping ourselves to feel better because we have written something? Don't we realize we are wasting our time talking to those who for the most part agree with us? Are we fools?

    Then another voice tugs on my mind. This voice says...but if these ideas were not expressed, think how fast the problems would fade into nothingness. Each person who remains aware of the genocide is a person who has not forgotten. Each person, whom we never actually meet because he/she does not write but just reads, is someone else who remembers. Each person who had zero knowledge of the genocide, who comes to SPN or any other site, now is someone who can ask questions and find answers.

    And the wider the circle of those who remember and speak out the harder it will be to forget. Each word builds a critical mass of energy toward finding justice even though progress is slow and seems to take forever. Maybe nothing like full justice will ever come to the widows and children of the genocide. At the same time, does it not become more difficult for something like this to happen again when more people are watching and more people continue to ask questions?

    I don't know how old you were in 1984? At that time I was already middle-aged and busy in my personal life and career. There was only one news reporter on the scene of Harimandir, and a complete news blackout. This is before the days of cell phone video, before the Internet, before social networks, before Twitter. BLACKOUT!!!!!!!!!!!!! The news trickled through days later and the news was baffling. What to make of it? Except that to me as one person it seemed an enormous sacrilege had been committed. Then I went on with my life as if nothing happened because there was no one to remind me every day. And there were few Sikhs in my world.

    My comments apply both to June and November of 84 in this instance. Coming back around to this later in life, with an Internet, social networks, digital video, email, something important comes to mind.. It was easy to crush the consciousness of not only Sikhs, but of the entire world, then. It will be impossible ever to do it again -- make the entire world blind and deaf to a similar outrage. So maybe we are not fools in writing these articles. These articles are now part of an indelible database that stretches around the globe and intersects with other databases containing knowledge, information and outrage. Someone 10 years from now, who was not even alive in 1984, will know what happened and understand the human cost. Multiply that by millions of young people who were not alive then. What is my point? We are doing the right thing. We are making it hard to forget. We are making it easier to ask questions.

    P/S - If you doubt that. consider that right now in Jamaica something similar is happening on a much smaller scale. But it is happening nonetheless. Only the constant nagging by electronic means will turn that situation around. No one anywhere on the planet can be kept ignorant the way I was in 1984. I hope this helps. It is not much. Every little bit by every little person adds up.
     
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  18. maskinji

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    Narayanjot Ji,

    Beautiful. You have really felt the pain of sacrilege and injustice. We all need to feel it, then we would never be tired of discussing this, bcoz we would feel as if we have lost something or own.

    All may not have same disposition but those who do, they have been respected in the past and will continue to be respected.
     
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  19. Archived_member13

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    Gurfateh ji,

    Thanks Narayanjot Kaur ji, Well United Khalsa means when each and every person strives to live according to laws of Khalsa in our daily lives, to give tan man dhan to Maharaj and when the turbulent times comes again we're ready and it would no other a Saint from Damdami Taksal that will reunite Sikhs under Nishan Sahib till that time we become United Khalsa.

    It's not about writing articles, it's chance to remind people, sadly 1984 is fading away
    from people's memory specially within our community. Maya has got hold on it and we're
    in love with it. Most of the Sikhs care about cars, money and pleasures. Though there
    are many Chardikala Sings and one needs to learn from them to get back into Sikhi fold.
    My words may sounds harsh but this is the truth, I know i cannot do anything alone.

    Guru Nanak Sahib told us not to idol worship, Idols of Guru Nanak Sahib is been kept in
    homes and murti puja has started again 10 Guru Sahib kept us away from Brahaminsm
    has got hold on Sikhi.

    Time will come when it will become apparent to discuss all these issues on one platform
    otherwise are future generations will look like same as anyone else in this world.

    Harmandar Sahib will always remained entacted because it is house God, Even in 1984
    one eye witness account it liked the whole shooked the complex, it is like high magnitatude of earthquake or something, Even after rounds of heavy tank shelling, Two
    Nishan Sahibs were not destroyed and stood tall.

    As Sant Jarnail Singh Ji said " Justice denied anywhere, Is threat to justice everywhere".

    Thanks to everyone for their noble and thoughtful comments.

    Regards

    Gurveen Singh
     
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  20. jasvinder121

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    The orders to attack Harmandir Sahib were given by Congressi PM Indira Gandi and not any other party. The Bhindranwala was himself supported by Indira khan against Akalis. When she was done using him, got him killed, simple.

    Now blamming other parties for not stoping an Army which is ordered to kill is clearly giving clean chit to the origional culprits ie; Congress.
     
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  21. maskinji

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    You seem to have found the pulse of the whole incident. Its not Indira Khan. Please correct.

    If She wanted him killed, Then why force sent to 34 other gurudwaras.

    If she was using him, then during what time in punjab she used him, and when she was done using him.
    I'll tell u the years. Santji became head of taksal in 75-76 I guess, and became shaheed in 84, and was in limelight since 1978 after vaisakhi incident. So when did he work for Indira Gandhi.

    Put in the time as per you.

    Also, When did he go against akalis, any such act or Statement on record ? Infact, it was other way round.

    If you have any views on this, Please post here.
     
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