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General Will Guruji Take Care Of Me?

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by Ishna, Dec 25, 2011.

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  1. Ishna

    Ishna
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    Today I read the following, which surprised me:

    Poster A said "Guru can take care of everything"
    Poster B said this was an incorrect interpretation.
    However I read in SGGS that everything will be taken care of:

    Ang 691

    ਆਪਿ ਲੀਏ ਲੜਿ ਲਾਇ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਧਾਰੀਆ ਜੀਉ
    Āp lī▫e laṛ lā▫e kirpā ḏẖārī▫ā jī▫o.
    He Himself has attached me to the hem of His robe; He has showered me with His Mercy.


    ਮੋਹਿ ਨਿਰਗੁਣੁ ਨੀਚੁ ਅਨਾਥੁ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਅਗਮ ਅਪਾਰੀਆ ਜੀਉ
    Mohi nirguṇ nīcẖ anāth parabẖ agam āpārī▫ā jī▫o.
    I am worthless, lowly and helpless; God is unfathomable and infinite.


    ਦਇਆਲ ਸਦਾ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਨੀਚ ਥਾਪਣਹਾਰਿਆ
    Ḏa▫i▫āl saḏā kirpāl su▫āmī nīcẖ thāpaṇhāri▫ā.
    My Lord and Master is always merciful, kind and compassionate; He uplifts and establishes the lowly.


    ਜੀਅ ਜੰਤ ਸਭਿ ਵਸਿ ਤੇਰੈ ਸਗਲ ਤੇਰੀ ਸਾਰਿਆ
    Jī▫a janṯ sabẖ vas ṯerai sagal ṯerī sāri▫ā.
    All beings and creatures are under Your power; You take care of all.



    ਆਪਿ ਕਰਤਾ ਆਪਿ ਭੁਗਤਾ ਆਪਿ ਸਗਲ ਬੀਚਾਰੀਆ
    Āp karṯā āp bẖugṯā āp sagal bīcẖārī▫ā.
    He Himself is the Creator, and He Himself is the Enjoyer; He Himself is the Contemplator of all.


    ਬਿਨਵੰਤ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਇ ਜੀਵਾ ਹਰਿ ਜਪੁ ਜਪਉ ਬਨਵਾਰੀਆ ॥੩॥
    Binvanṯ Nānak guṇ gā▫e jīvā har jap japa▫o banvārī▫ā. ||3||
    Prays Nanak, singing Your Glorious Praises, I live, chanting the Chant

    of the Lord, the Lord of the world-forest. ||3||
    From So Dar (which I assume we are all familiar with), on Ang 6

    ਸੋ ਦਰੁ ਕੇਹਾ ਸੋ ਘਰੁ ਕੇਹਾ ਜਿਤੁ ਬਹਿ ਸਰਬ ਸਮਾਲੇ
    So ḏar kehā so gẖar kehā jiṯ bahi sarab samāle.
    Where is that Gate, and where is that Dwelling, in which You sit and take care of all?
    Ang 795 contains an exceptionally beautiful ardaas:

    ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ ਮਹਲਾ
    Bilāval mėhlā 1.
    Bilaawal, First Mehl:
    ਮਨੁ ਮੰਦਰੁ ਤਨੁ ਵੇਸ ਕਲੰਦਰੁ ਘਟ ਹੀ ਤੀਰਥਿ ਨਾਵਾ
    Man manḏar ṯan ves kalanḏar gẖat hī ṯirath nāvā.
    My mind is the temple, and my body is the simple cloth of the humble seeker; deep within my heart, I bathe at the sacred shrine.
    ਏਕੁ ਸਬਦੁ ਮੇਰੈ ਪ੍ਰਾਨਿ ਬਸਤੁ ਹੈ ਬਾਹੁੜਿ ਜਨਮਿ ਆਵਾ ॥੧॥
    Ėk sabaḏ merai parān basaṯ hai bāhuṛ janam na āvā. ||1||
    The One Word of the Shabad abides within my mind; I shall not come to be born again. ||1||
    ਮਨੁ ਬੇਧਿਆ ਦਇਆਲ ਸੇਤੀ ਮੇਰੀ ਮਾਈ
    Man beḏẖi▫ā ḏa▫i▫āl seṯī merī mā▫ī.
    My mind is pierced through by the Merciful Lord, O my mother!
    ਕਉਣੁ ਜਾਣੈ ਪੀਰ ਪਰਾਈ
    Ka▫uṇ jāṇai pīr parā▫ī.
    Who can know the pain of another?
    ਹਮ ਨਾਹੀ ਚਿੰਤ ਪਰਾਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ
    Ham nāhī cẖinṯ parā▫ī. ||1|| rahā▫o.
    I think of none other than the Lord. ||1||Pause||
    ਅਗਮ ਅਗੋਚਰ ਅਲਖ ਅਪਾਰਾ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਕਰਹੁ ਹਮਾਰੀ
    Agam agocẖar alakẖ apārā cẖinṯā karahu hamārī.
    O Lord, inaccessible, unfathomable, invisible and infinite: please, take care of me!
    ਜਲਿ ਥਲਿ ਮਹੀਅਲਿ ਭਰਿਪੁਰਿ ਲੀਣਾ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਰੀ ॥੨॥
    Jal thal mahī▫al bẖaripur līṇā gẖat gẖat joṯ ṯumĥārī. ||2||
    In the water, on the land and in sky, You are totally pervading. Your Light is in each and every heart. ||2||
    ਸਿਖ ਮਤਿ ਸਭ ਬੁਧਿ ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਰੀ ਮੰਦਿਰ ਛਾਵਾ ਤੇਰੇ
    Sikẖ maṯ sabẖ buḏẖ ṯumĥārī manḏir cẖẖāvā ṯere.
    All teachings, instructions and understandings are Yours; the mansions and sanctuaries are Yours as well.
    ਤੁਝ ਬਿਨੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਜਾਣਾ ਮੇਰੇ ਸਾਹਿਬਾ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵਾ ਨਿਤ ਤੇਰੇ ॥੩॥
    Ŧujẖ bin avar na jāṇā mere sāhibā guṇ gāvā niṯ ṯere. ||3||
    Without You, I know no other, O my Lord and Master; I continually sing Your Glorious Praises. ||3||
    ਜੀਅ ਜੰਤ ਸਭਿ ਸਰਣਿ ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਰੀ ਸਰਬ ਚਿੰਤ ਤੁਧੁ ਪਾਸੇ
    Jī▫a janṯ sabẖ saraṇ ṯumĥārī sarab cẖinṯ ṯuḏẖ pāse.
    All beings and creatures seek the Protection of Your Sanctuary; all thought of their care rests with You.
    ਜੋ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਸੋਈ ਚੰਗਾ ਇਕ ਨਾਨਕ ਕੀ ਅਰਦਾਸੇ ॥੪॥੨॥
    Jo ṯuḏẖ bẖāvai so▫ī cẖanga ik Nānak kī arḏāse. ||4||2||
    That which pleases Your Will is good; this alone is Nanak's prayer. ||4||2||
    My interpretation is, that when one's mind becomes attuned to the hukam, one sees everything going as it is meant to go, good, bad, ugly or otherwise. In this way of hukam, everything is being taken care of by our totally pervading Ik Onkar. When our sun dies and we humans cease to exist in our current form, everything will still be taken care of - it can't NOT be.

    So, why would the statement that 'Guru can take care of everything' be an incorrect statement to make?

    As a warm and fuzz human critter, I like to think the Big Dude looks out for me or "has my back" but does IT really care about little old me while IT simultaneously creates another binary star galaxy 10,000,000,000+ light years away, sees a whale give birth to its calf, gives the nod of approval to little Ishna doing her matha tek, and lines up punishment for the 15y/o Christian boy who just found his dad's stash of magazines? (I'm kidding of course but giving a picture of some of the thing humans think IT should be doing)

    There are two conflicting ideas bumping around... 1) Ik Onkar is too great to care about a human and it's affairs, it is all up the individual human's perspective, or 2) it does care for all, intimately?

    I don't think I've made it myself clear but hopefully you catch my drift and we can discuss.

    Merry Christmas!
     
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  3. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    Ishna ji thanks for a great question.

    Something came quickly to mind and I asked myself and perhaps we can also ask,

    Will my parent take care of me?

    The reason of course is that Creator is to Creation in a way that parents are to us.

    Parents don't want us to depend on them always so why should the creator of the creation! Our parents nurture when needed and teach us how to live. Our Guru ji help us learn ways to understand and live well. For me that is taking care though not a literal way of putting morsels in a physical ways in our mouths when we are hungry. Amother phrase comes to mind, "Don't give Fish to the hungry, teach them how to fish and they will never be hungry again".

    The answer will be obviously be "Yes", "No" and "depends". As various attributes will determine.

    My answer will be "depends". I will elaborate further as the thread develops.

    Sat Sri Akal.

    PS: Perhaps an idea for a poll to be added to the question. ​
     
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    #2 Ambarsaria, Dec 25, 2011
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2011
  4. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Ishna ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    When we accept Hukam as the first and the last word, then one is not afraid of good, bad and ugly in the world. One takes them in stride. SGGS, our only Guru gives us the tools how to accept the Hukam, especially when we fall or things go bad in our lives.

    When people talk about "Guru can take care of everything" it does not mean in a blind faith manner but it means, that we have been given the responsibility to make the best use of the tools given to us by our Guru and march on in life unlike in the dogmatic religions.

    In the dogmatic religions, people expect miracles where as in Sikhi, a Sikh accepts Hukam of the Guru and marches on against all odds. A Sikh is taught never to give up. So, by doing this one is taken care of because one is trained by the Guru to carry the spiritual torch for oneself and also to show the way to the others.

    Regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  5. prakash.s.bagga

    prakash.s.bagga
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    Wordly parents are not going to be with you for all the times and at all the places whereas CREATOR as parents is always with you right from birth to death and even after.So this should be an important consderation .
    Prakash.S.Bagga
     
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  6. Navdeep88

    Navdeep88 Canada
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    Ishna Ji,

    I've been kinda wondering about this too a little bit... about whether God and Guru Ji are the same... God is described as all-loving but sometimes I've heard kathavachiks etc. describe how disobedience in prayer etc results in "punishment" from Guru Ji, in that you disappoint your caretaker/parent. Almost like with Guru Ji its a personal relationship, whereas with the all pervading God (the one who takes care of all the BIG stuff... creating galaxies etc), is a little more "careless".

    Maybe Guru Ji is a branch off the Almighty... through serving Guru Ji, the understandable, reliable, protective and sometimes chiding parent, we serve the greater inconceivable, all powerful, eternal God which our human brains can't perceive.
     
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  7. Ishna

    Ishna
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    Thanks all for responses.

    Navdeep ji - This feels awkward because you've been studying Sikhi far longer than I have, but in all my learning I have only ever come across one (not Gurbani) reference to being 'punished' for not maintaining nitnem. Thus I feel the concept of punishment (at least 'punishment by God or Guruji') is totally foreign in Sikhi.

    We have no need to fear punishment from anyone or anything other than ourselves. The terrible feeling of knowing we've let ourselves down, that we've failed to follow Guruji's instructions, and the consequences of that (not maintaining a relationship with Guruji and thus not being able to attune to hukam) is the punishment we are delt (which in itself if an outcome of hukam!).

    'Punishment from God' is best left to the controlling, dogmatic type religions which rule their adhearants by fear, not through understanding and love.
     
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  8. Ishna

    Ishna
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    When I read the first line, I immediately think "how could an inaccessible, unfathomable, invisible and infinite Force possibly 'take care' of me?". But then I read the second line and it seems to suggest to me that the environment and life forms around me is the mechanism through which this Force works and through which opportunities of 'care' are obtained.

    I'm being provided with the air I breathe (which 'You are totally pervading'), the light by which I see, the good will in the actions of others, it's all a giant mechanism of care.

    BUT

    When we zoom in on the human condition, this is where it gets foggy.

    If we take a human who is suffering, lets say a Jew in a concentration camp, being starved and worked to death by your oppressors, who is taking care of them then? The ideal Sikh mind would be focused on the giant mechanism of care, but at that more zoomed-in personal level, the care is hard to detect. Is this zoomed-in level of human complication 'Maya'?

    Sikhi makes so much sense in the big picture, but it's hard to find where it fits on the personal, daily (care for me) level. Abrahamical religions are the other way around, pandering to the personal ego day-to-day but the big picture is lacking. I think this is what makes Abrahamical religions more attractive to people.

    It is tempting to say that death is a lack of care. If someone's child is hit by a train and dies, was that a lack of Care by Guruji? The reflex response from devoted Sikhs is probably 'no, of course not!' so my question then becomes, what IS lack of care?

    If you're a 7 year old child who is kidnapped and left in a basement to die, where is the Care there?

    It is easy to sing the praises of Care when one is currently being cared for.
     
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    #7 Ishna, Dec 26, 2011
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  9. Navdeep88

    Navdeep88 Canada
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    Ishna Ji,

    1) I have hardly studied Sikhi, I was born in a Sikh household, have been blessed with wonderful mentors... any sensibility of Sikhi or Philosophy comes from them and what they've taught. Hands down. If God had not blessed with the basic foundations, I would be totally senseless in this realm.

    The second thing, about "punishment", I didn't really know how else to say it... but idk, I've always considered my parents disapproving of me or chiding me, punishment. And from what I recall from that katha, the Bhai Sahib was speaking about the personal relationship... how if you commit to it, and deviate from it, you don't feel so good about yourself...

    Also, I think there was a little bit of a cultural context there. Back home (my mom always talks about this) if kids don't do their homework, the teacher will show stern disapproval, you will be demoted to the back. I think the spiritual thing is the same, not only do you suffer, but if you don't do the basics of prayer etc, don't expect to have your prayers answered.
     
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  10. Navdeep88

    Navdeep88 Canada
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    Ishna Ji,

    What is the definition of being taken care of though? How can that person who doesn't know you, define for you exactly the circumstances in which you feel taken care of? How can you judge the same for someone in a concentration camp? At what level does a person in a concentration camp decide they are no longer cared for? Is it the same for EVERY single person in that situation? (Probably not). In other words, you and I can't really judge, and probably never could how another person feels in relation to God or well being. The best we can probably do is, when personally encountering someone else in pain or discomfort, lend a hand to get them up in their own life, so they do not head to despair.

    That kid in the basement, or any other kind of pain... that's external, a challenge for us to pray so that our hearts may be strong enough that we can deal with hardship... And people HAVE come out of the most heinous of circumstances, stronger.

    Imo, there is no lack of care. There is hardship. But He never ever turns his back, unless you transgress against another person's heart/blessings etc. Then, you dig your own pit w/ karma, and will have to make right before expecting to be in good favor (feeling cared for).

    **just my beliefs and opinions anyway
     
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    #9 Navdeep88, Dec 26, 2011
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  11. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    That my dear sister ji is one of the most succinct interpretations of creator's relationship with all that is around.

    Hands down it put many other statements to shame who expect creator to be one omnipotent, chariot riding, flying through the air Hari or something which only resides in so called omnipotent residences. It also puts to shame all Idol or myth driven whether it is about prahlad or any such others.

    Your words and description are pious and pure. wahmunda mundahug

    May you have the best of the season and a wonderful New Year.

    Sat Sri Akal.

    PS: I will respond to other part of your post later.
     
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    #10 Ambarsaria, Dec 26, 2011
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  12. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    Prakash.S.Bagga ji I agree with the all pervading, in all and ever present. Part of SGGS key message.

    Hence we need to destroy notions of house of the Omnipotent, name of the omnipotent as though he/she came to talk to you/me/us and gave us the names (say to Hindus/Sikhs only), total rubbish. Creator does not differentiate between you, me , a Hindu,
    Muslim or a Christian. Actions of each and every one of us based on our understanding which can be distinct and different determines how we react with the creation all around.
    So do the results differ.

    Here there is no Comparison of Sikhism to anything which is driven through dogmas of Omnipotent person, exclusive sons and daughters of such and so on, a system of deities, tarangs/waves, and so on.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
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