☀️ JOIN SPN MOBILE
Forums
New posts
Guru Granth Sahib
Composition, Arrangement & Layout
ਜਪੁ | Jup
ਸੋ ਦਰੁ | So Dar
ਸੋਹਿਲਾ | Sohilaa
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ | Raag Siree-Raag
Gurbani (14-53)
Ashtpadiyan (53-71)
Gurbani (71-74)
Pahre (74-78)
Chhant (78-81)
Vanjara (81-82)
Vaar Siri Raag (83-91)
Bhagat Bani (91-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਝ | Raag Maajh
Gurbani (94-109)
Ashtpadi (109)
Ashtpadiyan (110-129)
Ashtpadi (129-130)
Ashtpadiyan (130-133)
Bara Maha (133-136)
Din Raen (136-137)
Vaar Maajh Ki (137-150)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗਉੜੀ | Raag Gauree
Gurbani (151-185)
Quartets/Couplets (185-220)
Ashtpadiyan (220-234)
Karhalei (234-235)
Ashtpadiyan (235-242)
Chhant (242-249)
Baavan Akhari (250-262)
Sukhmani (262-296)
Thittee (296-300)
Gauree kii Vaar (300-323)
Gurbani (323-330)
Ashtpadiyan (330-340)
Baavan Akhari (340-343)
Thintteen (343-344)
Vaar Kabir (344-345)
Bhagat Bani (345-346)
ਰਾਗੁ ਆਸਾ | Raag Aasaa
Gurbani (347-348)
Chaupaday (348-364)
Panchpadde (364-365)
Kaafee (365-409)
Aasaavaree (409-411)
Ashtpadiyan (411-432)
Patee (432-435)
Chhant (435-462)
Vaar Aasaa (462-475)
Bhagat Bani (475-488)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੂਜਰੀ | Raag Goojaree
Gurbani (489-503)
Ashtpadiyan (503-508)
Vaar Gujari (508-517)
Vaar Gujari (517-526)
ਰਾਗੁ ਦੇਵਗੰਧਾਰੀ | Raag Dayv-Gandhaaree
Gurbani (527-536)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਹਾਗੜਾ | Raag Bihaagraa
Gurbani (537-556)
Chhant (538-548)
Vaar Bihaagraa (548-556)
ਰਾਗੁ ਵਡਹੰਸ | Raag Wadhans
Gurbani (557-564)
Ashtpadiyan (564-565)
Chhant (565-575)
Ghoriaan (575-578)
Alaahaniiaa (578-582)
Vaar Wadhans (582-594)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੋਰਠਿ | Raag Sorath
Gurbani (595-634)
Asatpadhiya (634-642)
Vaar Sorath (642-659)
ਰਾਗੁ ਧਨਾਸਰੀ | Raag Dhanasaree
Gurbani (660-685)
Astpadhiya (685-687)
Chhant (687-691)
Bhagat Bani (691-695)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਤਸਰੀ | Raag Jaitsree
Gurbani (696-703)
Chhant (703-705)
Vaar Jaitsaree (705-710)
Bhagat Bani (710)
ਰਾਗੁ ਟੋਡੀ | Raag Todee
ਰਾਗੁ ਬੈਰਾੜੀ | Raag Bairaaree
ਰਾਗੁ ਤਿਲੰਗ | Raag Tilang
Gurbani (721-727)
Bhagat Bani (727)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੂਹੀ | Raag Suhi
Gurbani (728-750)
Ashtpadiyan (750-761)
Kaafee (761-762)
Suchajee (762)
Gunvantee (763)
Chhant (763-785)
Vaar Soohee (785-792)
Bhagat Bani (792-794)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ | Raag Bilaaval
Gurbani (795-831)
Ashtpadiyan (831-838)
Thitteen (838-840)
Vaar Sat (841-843)
Chhant (843-848)
Vaar Bilaaval (849-855)
Bhagat Bani (855-858)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੋਂਡ | Raag Gond
Gurbani (859-869)
Ashtpadiyan (869)
Bhagat Bani (870-875)
ਰਾਗੁ ਰਾਮਕਲੀ | Raag Ramkalee
Ashtpadiyan (902-916)
Gurbani (876-902)
Anand (917-922)
Sadd (923-924)
Chhant (924-929)
Dakhnee (929-938)
Sidh Gosat (938-946)
Vaar Ramkalee (947-968)
ਰਾਗੁ ਨਟ ਨਾਰਾਇਨ | Raag Nat Narayan
Gurbani (975-980)
Ashtpadiyan (980-983)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਲੀ ਗਉੜਾ | Raag Maalee Gauraa
Gurbani (984-988)
Bhagat Bani (988)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਰੂ | Raag Maaroo
Gurbani (889-1008)
Ashtpadiyan (1008-1014)
Kaafee (1014-1016)
Ashtpadiyan (1016-1019)
Anjulian (1019-1020)
Solhe (1020-1033)
Dakhni (1033-1043)
ਰਾਗੁ ਤੁਖਾਰੀ | Raag Tukhaari
Bara Maha (1107-1110)
Chhant (1110-1117)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕੇਦਾਰਾ | Raag Kedara
Gurbani (1118-1123)
Bhagat Bani (1123-1124)
ਰਾਗੁ ਭੈਰਉ | Raag Bhairo
Gurbani (1125-1152)
Partaal (1153)
Ashtpadiyan (1153-1167)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਸੰਤੁ | Raag Basant
Gurbani (1168-1187)
Ashtpadiyan (1187-1193)
Vaar Basant (1193-1196)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਾਰਗ | Raag Saarag
Gurbani (1197-1200)
Partaal (1200-1231)
Ashtpadiyan (1232-1236)
Chhant (1236-1237)
Vaar Saarang (1237-1253)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਲਾਰ | Raag Malaar
Gurbani (1254-1293)
Partaal (1265-1273)
Ashtpadiyan (1273-1278)
Chhant (1278)
Vaar Malaar (1278-91)
Bhagat Bani (1292-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਾਨੜਾ | Raag Kaanraa
Gurbani (1294-96)
Partaal (1296-1318)
Ashtpadiyan (1308-1312)
Chhant (1312)
Vaar Kaanraa
Bhagat Bani (1318)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਲਿਆਨ | Raag Kalyaan
Gurbani (1319-23)
Ashtpadiyan (1323-26)
ਰਾਗੁ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੀ | Raag Prabhaatee
Gurbani (1327-1341)
Ashtpadiyan (1342-51)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਜਾਵੰਤੀ | Raag Jaijaiwanti
Gurbani (1352-53)
Salok | Gatha | Phunahe | Chaubole | Swayiye
Sehskritee Mahala 1
Sehskritee Mahala 5
Gaathaa Mahala 5
Phunhay Mahala 5
Chaubolae Mahala 5
Shaloks Bhagat Kabir
Shaloks Sheikh Farid
Swaiyyae Mahala 5
Swaiyyae in Praise of Gurus
Shaloks in Addition To Vaars
Shalok Ninth Mehl
Mundavanee Mehl 5
ਰਾਗ ਮਾਲਾ, Raag Maalaa
What's new
New posts
New media
New media comments
New resources
Latest activity
Videos
New media
New comments
Library
Latest reviews
Donate
Log in
Register
What's new
New posts
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Welcome to all New Sikh Philosophy Network Forums!
Explore Sikh Sikhi Sikhism...
Sign up
Log in
Discussions
Sikh Sikhi Sikhism
Why This Forum Thesedays Is Full Of "saakats" (skeptics And Atheists) ?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="JourneyOflife" data-source="post: 202993" data-attributes="member: 20695"><p>I wouldn't go over and physically stop them from doing it. If there are Sikhs who want to worship pictures of the Gurus then far be it from me to go over and rip them up. What I am referring to is a <em>doctrinal acceptance</em> of these practices. That is what I am opposed to. Sikhs do many things which are not in-line with Sikhi because Sikhs, like everyone else, are also regular humans and none of us are perfect. But that doesn't mean we say "okay Sikhs are doing all these things, I suppose they are a part of Sikhi or we should adopt them into Sikhi." I want to maintain that there are many things Sikhs do in spite of Gurbani, not because of it.</p><p></p><p>So would I find Sikhs worshiping a picture of the tenth master acceptable? I would try to talk them out of it by showing how the practice contradicts Gurbani. But I wouldn't physically force them to stop. Regardless of the outcome, I would not say that the practice is endorsed or acceptable by Sikhi. I do many things in my life which probably wouldn't have been accepted by the Gurus and I like to be honest about how just because I do it, doesn't mean it is acceptable from the point of view of Sikhi.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I think they're probably being overly fussy about things, but I wouldn't compare it to "idol worship" as you have done.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Is this a reference to Akhand Paaths? The Sikh Rehat Maryada is pretty clear that they are not supposed to be "mumbled through as fast as possible." If there are people who do so, then they should be reminded of their duty to recite SGGS Ji at a rate which is comprehensible to the attending Sangat.</p><p></p><p>so that covers idol worship,</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This is where choice of words is very important. I have never denied that there are many Sikhs, especially in India, who have unfortunately blurred the lines between Sikhi and Hinduism and engage in these sorts of practices. But what I was trying to get across in my last post and have stressed above in this one is that just because there are practices going on among Sikhs- no matter how wide-spread they may be- that go against the message of Gurbani, it does not give us the right to suddenly adopt them into Sikhi and proclaim them to be acceptable from the POV of the Guru. I would try and use reason to get people away from idol worship and believing in caste but regardless of the outcome I would never say these practices are accepted by Sikh doctrine. They happen in spite of Sikhi, not because of it.</p><p></p><p>And of course, I brought up meditation because I think it is encouraged in Sikhi and in-line with Gurbani. Which is why I can't understand the taunting (at best) or the vilifying (at worst) that happens to people who promote it on SPN...</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Nice to know there is at least one person who can tolerate my method of worship <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Why do you have a problem with this?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>There is no "constant pressure" to meditate on SPN.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm sorry I don't follow.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So the issue is with properly defining <em>meditation</em>?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>How do you naturally "put the brain into a suggestive state that feels pleasurable" and how is this different from "artificially putting the brain into a suggestive state that feels pleasurable."</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That's a very small sample size. I know many people in my life who meditate and the consensus seems to be that the benefits of it carry over into all aspects of life. Secular studies on meditation overwhelmingly indicate the same thing.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I am highly skeptical of this being an inherent feature of practicing meditation even if there were people who exhibited this behavior. Humans can get addicted to almost anything. There are millions of people addicted to the internet, to television, to prescription pills. These numbers far outweigh any possible <em>addicts </em>to meditation. I'll begin to consider this a valid argument against meditation when I see widespread calls to stop (among other things) internet, television and prescription drug uses for the same reason.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>"Thinking" about what?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>What do the Vedas have to do with this? Meditation arguably outdated the Vedas by thousands of years. Who knows, perhaps it was developed very early on by humans following our arrival on the evolutionary scene.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't think <em>obsession </em>with <strong>anything</strong> is "particularly Sikhi".</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The question wasn't "did he need to" (I have no idea if he did), but what exactly "<strong>he</strong> <strong>was doing</strong>" when he was on there. Every version of this account I have come across states that he was meditating, almost certainly on Gurbani. I have come across no good reason to believe otherwise.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I think it is important to point out that while he spent 26 years meditating, no one is saying that's <em>all </em>he did for that period of time. He worked, he shared and did other things associated with a 'normal' Sikh life. The emphasis on meditation is used as a foil against the martial and political activities of the 6th-8th Guru during their reigns, reigns the 9th Guru lived through himself.</p><p></p><p>This also brings to light a potential difference in our approach to Sikhi. You have called it "Guru Nanakjis <strong>philosophies</strong>". I don't believe it is a mere philosophy at all. I'm sure there are overlapping features between Sikhi and philosophy, but to say that Sikhi is Guru Nanak's philosophy is in a sense to say that Sikhi was <em>created by the Guru himself. </em>I don't believe this to be true, and everything I have read in Gurbani and accompanying literature like the Vaars of Bhai Gurdas thus far seems to indicate that Sikhi was given to the Guru by Waheguru, not the Guru merely speculating on what may or may not be a "nice way to live."</p><p></p><p>And no, I don't find anything about those 26 years of Guru Teg Bahadur ji to be out of line with the Sikhi given to the first Guru.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, post 26: <a href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/threads/amrit-vela-early-rising-what-does-gurbani-say.44909/page-2#post-201963" target="_blank">http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/threads/amrit-vela-early-rising-what-does-gurbani-say.44909/page-2#post-201963</a></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes of course, I fully understand.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Not necessarily. Guru Nanak never spoke out against ritual and ceremony in general, just blind ritualism and blind ceremony in particular, or believing that it makes you somehow holier or purer than people who don't share the same rituals/ceremonies as yourself.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>How do you "assist in the work of Creator"? What is this work? Why should we do it?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="JourneyOflife, post: 202993, member: 20695"] I wouldn't go over and physically stop them from doing it. If there are Sikhs who want to worship pictures of the Gurus then far be it from me to go over and rip them up. What I am referring to is a [I]doctrinal acceptance[/I] of these practices. That is what I am opposed to. Sikhs do many things which are not in-line with Sikhi because Sikhs, like everyone else, are also regular humans and none of us are perfect. But that doesn't mean we say "okay Sikhs are doing all these things, I suppose they are a part of Sikhi or we should adopt them into Sikhi." I want to maintain that there are many things Sikhs do in spite of Gurbani, not because of it. So would I find Sikhs worshiping a picture of the tenth master acceptable? I would try to talk them out of it by showing how the practice contradicts Gurbani. But I wouldn't physically force them to stop. Regardless of the outcome, I would not say that the practice is endorsed or acceptable by Sikhi. I do many things in my life which probably wouldn't have been accepted by the Gurus and I like to be honest about how just because I do it, doesn't mean it is acceptable from the point of view of Sikhi. I think they're probably being overly fussy about things, but I wouldn't compare it to "idol worship" as you have done. Is this a reference to Akhand Paaths? The Sikh Rehat Maryada is pretty clear that they are not supposed to be "mumbled through as fast as possible." If there are people who do so, then they should be reminded of their duty to recite SGGS Ji at a rate which is comprehensible to the attending Sangat. so that covers idol worship, This is where choice of words is very important. I have never denied that there are many Sikhs, especially in India, who have unfortunately blurred the lines between Sikhi and Hinduism and engage in these sorts of practices. But what I was trying to get across in my last post and have stressed above in this one is that just because there are practices going on among Sikhs- no matter how wide-spread they may be- that go against the message of Gurbani, it does not give us the right to suddenly adopt them into Sikhi and proclaim them to be acceptable from the POV of the Guru. I would try and use reason to get people away from idol worship and believing in caste but regardless of the outcome I would never say these practices are accepted by Sikh doctrine. They happen in spite of Sikhi, not because of it. And of course, I brought up meditation because I think it is encouraged in Sikhi and in-line with Gurbani. Which is why I can't understand the taunting (at best) or the vilifying (at worst) that happens to people who promote it on SPN... Nice to know there is at least one person who can tolerate my method of worship :) Why do you have a problem with this? There is no "constant pressure" to meditate on SPN. I'm sorry I don't follow. So the issue is with properly defining [I]meditation[/I]? How do you naturally "put the brain into a suggestive state that feels pleasurable" and how is this different from "artificially putting the brain into a suggestive state that feels pleasurable." That's a very small sample size. I know many people in my life who meditate and the consensus seems to be that the benefits of it carry over into all aspects of life. Secular studies on meditation overwhelmingly indicate the same thing. I am highly skeptical of this being an inherent feature of practicing meditation even if there were people who exhibited this behavior. Humans can get addicted to almost anything. There are millions of people addicted to the internet, to television, to prescription pills. These numbers far outweigh any possible [I]addicts [/I]to meditation. I'll begin to consider this a valid argument against meditation when I see widespread calls to stop (among other things) internet, television and prescription drug uses for the same reason. "Thinking" about what? What do the Vedas have to do with this? Meditation arguably outdated the Vedas by thousands of years. Who knows, perhaps it was developed very early on by humans following our arrival on the evolutionary scene. I don't think [I]obsession [/I]with [B]anything[/B] is "particularly Sikhi". The question wasn't "did he need to" (I have no idea if he did), but what exactly "[B]he[/B] [B]was doing[/B]" when he was on there. Every version of this account I have come across states that he was meditating, almost certainly on Gurbani. I have come across no good reason to believe otherwise. I think it is important to point out that while he spent 26 years meditating, no one is saying that's [I]all [/I]he did for that period of time. He worked, he shared and did other things associated with a 'normal' Sikh life. The emphasis on meditation is used as a foil against the martial and political activities of the 6th-8th Guru during their reigns, reigns the 9th Guru lived through himself. This also brings to light a potential difference in our approach to Sikhi. You have called it "Guru Nanakjis [B]philosophies[/B]". I don't believe it is a mere philosophy at all. I'm sure there are overlapping features between Sikhi and philosophy, but to say that Sikhi is Guru Nanak's philosophy is in a sense to say that Sikhi was [I]created by the Guru himself. [/I]I don't believe this to be true, and everything I have read in Gurbani and accompanying literature like the Vaars of Bhai Gurdas thus far seems to indicate that Sikhi was given to the Guru by Waheguru, not the Guru merely speculating on what may or may not be a "nice way to live." And no, I don't find anything about those 26 years of Guru Teg Bahadur ji to be out of line with the Sikhi given to the first Guru. Yes, post 26: [URL]http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/threads/amrit-vela-early-rising-what-does-gurbani-say.44909/page-2#post-201963[/URL] Yes of course, I fully understand. Yes. Not necessarily. Guru Nanak never spoke out against ritual and ceremony in general, just blind ritualism and blind ceremony in particular, or believing that it makes you somehow holier or purer than people who don't share the same rituals/ceremonies as yourself. How do you "assist in the work of Creator"? What is this work? Why should we do it? [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Discussions
Sikh Sikhi Sikhism
Why This Forum Thesedays Is Full Of "saakats" (skeptics And Atheists) ?
This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
Accept
Learn more…
Top