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Hard Talk
Why Is The Law Of Karma Rejected?
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<blockquote data-quote="Ambarsaria" data-source="post: 179234" data-attributes="member: 14194"><p>Confused ji some comments and observations.</p><p> Confused ji I believe we need to stay reasonably precise and steadfast in our argument and exposition. I do not believe the debate or arguments sweet and sour on this thread are about the following,</p><p> </p><p> </p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>“consequence of past actions</strong>”</li> </ul> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><p style="margin-left: 20px">o [/FONT]Past is not defined in terms when an action will result in a consequence that is not apparent at the time of the action or experienced there and then</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">o [/FONT]There is no espousal of concepts like “instantaneous justice” or “reward” discernible by all doing actions and all actions</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">o [/FONT]The general line is “you sow so shall you reap” but we know that there is generally a time lag between “sowing” and “reaping” and for some actions it may last a life time</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> </p> <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>“Our actions and others actions interplay”</strong></li> </ul> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><p style="margin-left: 20px">o [/FONT]It goes without saying that all effects all no matter how much or how little,</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <ul style="margin-left: 20px"> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">This relates to the emphasis on consonance and recognition of all creation as espoused in Sikhism</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Even more strongly it is stated to be all one in Sikhism</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Sentience or non-sentience has no meaning as in creation the transformations of one to the other are continuous and timeless</li> </ul> <p style="margin-left: 20px">o [/FONT]Others have impact on us and we have on others</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <ul style="margin-left: 20px"> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Even people or elements of many millennium ago or light years have an impact on us and so it will be in many millennium and light years away into the future</li> </ul> <p style="margin-left: 20px">o [/FONT]For me we all within ourselves as parts of others who have been before us and who and what is around us as and now</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <ul style="margin-left: 20px"> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">I call this living micro-reincarnations that are continuous and beyond strict mapping or control that we as mortals of non perfect intellect can ever understand and fully quantify</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">I am living part of you through this interaction and many others at spn</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">I am living parts of my friends, teachers like our Guru jis and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">This is a marvel in creation and cannot be boxed in defineable boundaries with terms like Karma or anything else to have any kind of specificity</li> </ul> </p> <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>“consequence of our past lives</strong>”</li> </ul> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><p style="margin-left: 20px">o [/FONT]Now here is where we fall into the deep well of darkness</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">o [/FONT]It is greatest of egos to state as though we are a continuation of an entity (commonly called as me in my previous life or life cycle) that is impervious to time or actions of birth and death</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">o [/FONT]Creation churns all to ashes and particles so fine that something totally wonderful could be created all the time</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <ul style="margin-left: 20px"> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">My ashes as part of a tree or a flower or something perhaps not as good in human terms that creation does not give two hoots about</li> </ul> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="font-family: 'Symbol'">· </span>Being excrement of a maggot for those buried</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> </p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="font-family: 'Symbol'">· </span>Being part of a dirty ditch for those cremated</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> </p></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">o [/FONT]So <strong>“Karma” </strong>as very commonly related to whole and complete lives/bodies/souls somehow carrying on unperturbed in many lives or series is just hog wash</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <ul style="margin-left: 20px"> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Of course we are related to our parents but we are not identical to them in every way</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Of course we can fully understand say a Gur ji’s teachings, but we do not become a Guru</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">You can study all you want to and be as good as Buddha but you will not be Buddha</li> </ul> <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>“Sikhism and Consonance”</strong></li> </ul> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><p style="margin-left: 20px">o [/FONT]Guru ji and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as emphatically as possible try to elaborate and teach us much of the above as far as I understand</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">o [/FONT]Infinite to learn but for ever learning and living there by</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">o [/FONT]Wisdom too vast to be of privy or proprietary for anyone</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <ul style="margin-left: 20px"> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Sikhism teaches to learn to seek wisdom but does not monopolize on the wisdom total and detailed</li> </ul> </p><p> Confused ji let us take a step back and let us rethink. Sikhism is not against Science or wisdom. Building of tendencies (the Pavlovian experiments with dogs), we setting a path for our actions based on what we have been doing is common sense and is not rocket science. It is totally in line with “sow so shall you reap” as embraced by Sikhism. We sowing all the time when it ripens is not always known. We are also reaping continuously, what we reap perhaps we cannot always understand whether it relates to something we sowed or a confluence of tendencies or many sowing's.</p><p> </p><p> This is simple stuff and does not need to be put into a box and colored as “Karma” or anything else. The wisdom is “sowing and reaping” and not naming it.</p><p> </p><p> I have not commented on some of the other stuff in your post as it brings us lower in wisdom and dialog and not raise us to higher or greater wisdom/understanding.</p><p> </p><p> Regards. mundahugkaurhug</p><p> <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ambarsaria, post: 179234, member: 14194"] Confused ji some comments and observations. Confused ji I believe we need to stay reasonably precise and steadfast in our argument and exposition. I do not believe the debate or arguments sweet and sour on this thread are about the following, [LIST] [*][B]“consequence of past actions[/B]” [/LIST] [INDENT][INDENT]o [/FONT]Past is not defined in terms when an action will result in a consequence that is not apparent at the time of the action or experienced there and then o [/FONT]There is no espousal of concepts like “instantaneous justice” or “reward” discernible by all doing actions and all actions o [/FONT]The general line is “you sow so shall you reap” but we know that there is generally a time lag between “sowing” and “reaping” and for some actions it may last a life time [/INDENT][/INDENT] [LIST] [*][B]“Our actions and others actions interplay”[/B] [/LIST] [INDENT][INDENT]o [/FONT]It goes without saying that all effects all no matter how much or how little, [LIST] [*]This relates to the emphasis on consonance and recognition of all creation as espoused in Sikhism [*]Even more strongly it is stated to be all one in Sikhism [*]Sentience or non-sentience has no meaning as in creation the transformations of one to the other are continuous and timeless [/LIST] o [/FONT]Others have impact on us and we have on others [LIST] [*]Even people or elements of many millennium ago or light years have an impact on us and so it will be in many millennium and light years away into the future [/LIST] o [/FONT]For me we all within ourselves as parts of others who have been before us and who and what is around us as and now [LIST] [*]I call this living micro-reincarnations that are continuous and beyond strict mapping or control that we as mortals of non perfect intellect can ever understand and fully quantify [*]I am living part of you through this interaction and many others at spn [*]I am living parts of my friends, teachers like our Guru jis and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji [*]This is a marvel in creation and cannot be boxed in defineable boundaries with terms like Karma or anything else to have any kind of specificity [/LIST] [/INDENT][/INDENT] [LIST] [*][B]“consequence of our past lives[/B]” [/LIST] [INDENT][INDENT]o [/FONT]Now here is where we fall into the deep well of darkness o [/FONT]It is greatest of egos to state as though we are a continuation of an entity (commonly called as me in my previous life or life cycle) that is impervious to time or actions of birth and death o [/FONT]Creation churns all to ashes and particles so fine that something totally wonderful could be created all the time [LIST] [*]My ashes as part of a tree or a flower or something perhaps not as good in human terms that creation does not give two hoots about [/LIST] [INDENT][INDENT][FONT=Symbol]· [/FONT]Being excrement of a maggot for those buried [/INDENT][/INDENT] [INDENT][INDENT][FONT=Symbol]· [/FONT]Being part of a dirty ditch for those cremated [/INDENT][/INDENT] o [/FONT]So [B]“Karma” [/B]as very commonly related to whole and complete lives/bodies/souls somehow carrying on unperturbed in many lives or series is just hog wash [LIST] [*]Of course we are related to our parents but we are not identical to them in every way [*]Of course we can fully understand say a Gur ji’s teachings, but we do not become a Guru [*]You can study all you want to and be as good as Buddha but you will not be Buddha [/LIST] [/INDENT][/INDENT] [LIST] [*][B]“Sikhism and Consonance”[/B] [/LIST] [INDENT][INDENT]o [/FONT]Guru ji and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as emphatically as possible try to elaborate and teach us much of the above as far as I understand o [/FONT]Infinite to learn but for ever learning and living there by o [/FONT]Wisdom too vast to be of privy or proprietary for anyone [LIST] [*]Sikhism teaches to learn to seek wisdom but does not monopolize on the wisdom total and detailed [/LIST] [/INDENT][/INDENT] Confused ji let us take a step back and let us rethink. Sikhism is not against Science or wisdom. Building of tendencies (the Pavlovian experiments with dogs), we setting a path for our actions based on what we have been doing is common sense and is not rocket science. It is totally in line with “sow so shall you reap” as embraced by Sikhism. We sowing all the time when it ripens is not always known. We are also reaping continuously, what we reap perhaps we cannot always understand whether it relates to something we sowed or a confluence of tendencies or many sowing's. This is simple stuff and does not need to be put into a box and colored as “Karma” or anything else. The wisdom is “sowing and reaping” and not naming it. I have not commented on some of the other stuff in your post as it brings us lower in wisdom and dialog and not raise us to higher or greater wisdom/understanding. Regards. mundahugkaurhug <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> [/QUOTE]
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Why Is The Law Of Karma Rejected?
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