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Controversial Why is the Law of Karma Rejected?

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by harcharanjitsinghdhillon, Jan 21, 2013.

  1. harcharanjitsinghdhillon

    harcharanjitsinghdhillon
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    dear all members
    sat sri akal. that portion that is applicable to caste system we can reject it.. but why many are trying to reject it, saying it is not applicable to sikhism. is it because law of karmas originated from hinduism? or some other reasons? please give your respected oppinions
     
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  3. Luckysingh

    Luckysingh Canada
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    I don't reject it and never have.
    If there are no consequences for my actions, then I might as well choose to play different figures every day !!
    I could be a helping samaritan the one day, and then if I felt angry the next, I could be a Saddam or a serial shooter!

    What is rejected is the the talk that my good deeds now will make me a higher caste or richer King in my next life!!
    The rest of Karma is pretty much fine from where I see it !

    What is very important to remember is that a true gursikh through his gurmat actions and behaviour along with true meditation and devotion to Waheguru ji, can overide and hamper any laws of karma that may be weighing him down !

    Therefore, a True and devoted Gurmukh can get to a state where the laws of karma do NOT apply.
    This does NOT mean they are rejected or disregarded !!
    Try not to get confused in this !!!
     
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  4. Ishna

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    You will reap what you sow - I don't think it needs to me more complicated than that. Why concentrate on a bunch of laws of karma which take you away from thinking about the important stuff?

    And like Lucky ji said,

    So why hold on to the concept in depth?

    IMHO.
     
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  5. Luckysingh

    Luckysingh Canada
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    I know, I think we hold on because the journey to becoming gurmukh is there and possible, but it never seems to come in complete reach !!
    This is probably why I personally feel that karma can still govern me to certain extents.

    What is scary and sad is that many young sikh youth today especially in UK AKJ's....etc.. seem to be under the impression that once they take amrit, they automatically become 'Gurmukh'.
    They therefore feel 'untouchable' in terms of their conduct !!
     
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  6. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    From falsehoods emanate false conjectures. Hence the title of this thread.

    There is "NO LAW OF KARMA" to start with. Creation deals with the good and bad as and when necessary without rigid laws governing the same. Of course humans have laws of reward and retribution but these probably have no significance or standing in the greater expanse of the universe. Compare it to the "Law of Gravity", "Law of Conservation of Energy", and so on which are real observed, experimented and proven. Compare it to so called law of Karma where certain misfortunes may be assigned to actions taken from generations ago. Of course there are impacts of forefathers on our lives but these are not one to one mapped as to one bad deed generating a corresponding bad fortune and so on. For example, the Hinduism merchants (pandits, Brahmins) walk in to exploit such vulnerabilities by promising to help you break such curses or omens. However this is no different than exploiting the vulnerable of their wealth and enslave so gullible. The same gross exploitation that our Guru ji tried to free the masses of the region from. Unfortunately many learned, including Sikhs out there and here on this forum, continue to not follow teachings of our Guru ji and keep falling back into the abyss that our Guru ji pulled their forefathers and mothers out of. Fundamentally a gross insult to the teachings of Guru ji's and others as penned into Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
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  7. Ishna

    Ishna
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    Thats a good point Luckyji. It's unfortunate because Guruji still makes it very clear every day that our actions still bring us closer or drive us further away. This action is independent of karma, as far as I'm aware, and really should be the primary motivating factor in a Sikhs life. Will this action bring be closer to Akal Purakh or push me further away?

    :(
     
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  8. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    The GURUS came to Earth...to show us the WAY OF LIFE...and wrote the 1429 Page MANUAL + TOOL BOX full of the tools we need to SUCCEED....showed us PRACTICAL easy to follow examples form real life Bhagats, Gurus, Gurmukhs, Guriskhs, ...in SIMPLE PUNJABI..the common mans language, common mans metaphors, common society norms etc etc...in a practical no nonsense way REJECTING (by NOT including them) all rituals,m fake paths, actions, etc etc all PREVIOUS so called "laws" punishments, rewards, heavens, hells etc etc etc..
    The GURU TELLS us in no uncertain words..LIFE IS THE PRESENT MOMENT...Hum aadmi haan EK DAMMII...the Past is GONE FOREVER..the FUTURE is NOT YOURS yet..so its the PRESENT that MATTERS !! THE SGGS is the PRESENT...the GURMUKH LIVES IN THE PRESENT....and MERGER WITH THE CREATOR by following the Manual of Life and using the TOOLS in the TOOL BOX called SGGS..to CHANGE OUR PRESENT LIFE in a WAY that SHOWS us to be GURMUKHS..and not Manmukhs..
    Each and EVERY PRESENT MOMENT is the DETERMINING MOMENT...once its in the PAST..its DEAD for us...the FUTURE is HIS to COMMAND..because the moment one breath is STOPPED..we are also DEAD and PAST...HUM AADMI HAAN EK DAMMII...

    The GIURU has delcared quite clearly..on Karma...He asks..where did "karma" come form ?? How was the Very FIRST Human born ?? He had no time to commit bad/Good karmas..??..so how was he made a human ??? Its really a Chicken and Egg situation..mindless and endless arguing...CHURNING WATER....while we waste the PRECIOUS PRESENT MOMENTS..slipping away into the DEAD PAST..while we WORRY SICK baout the "FUTURE" which is NOT OURS !!! Only a fool DAY DREAMS like this..:noticekudi:
     
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  9. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    Sikhism is not supposed to be a nice pleasant dish, made better by adding various bits and pieces. For every concept embraced that has no place in Sikhi, further dilution of the original will take place.

    I find the concept of previous lives having an impact on the present, completely at odds with 'original Sikhism'. The two do not go hand in hand, and are in fact direct contradictions.The goal in Sikhism is permanent connection, here and now, no magical mystery, anything else is for those that need the glitter.
     
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  10. chazSingh

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    Satnaam Harry Ji,

    None of us can be sure how our past lives affect us today...stating the obvious we dont know if we did have any past lives and if we did, what they were...


    but in the present life....one can clearly see how our actions in the past affect our decision making in the present? or how other peoples actions towards us cause us to respond in a certain way based on our earlier life experiences.... it's all action -> reaction stuff. and it gets stored in our minds which materialise as thoughts in our present day.


    My wife had a very difficult up-bringing....she learnt from bullying that the only way to get out of bullying is to fight back even harder...those actions and re-actions in her early life are now embedded in her mind...

    in the present day...if she feels even just a little threatened by someone at work, within family life..her instict is to 'bite' back very hard which results in losing jobs, friends, family.

    someone swears at you (action) -> you swear back (reaction) this then becomes and action in itself which warrants a reaction again from someone...so the wheel continues to turn....no lessons learnt..

    next time

    someone swears at you (negative action) -> you reply back "god bless you" (positve reaction)...and a whole new positive sets of outcomes are now possible...mind is released from the shackles of the corruptive mind.

    This is how we change the balance of negative mind inprints (karams) into positive mind inprints...and we turn the cup around in-order to receive gods grace.


    God bless Ji... Hope you are well and business is good, we haven't spoken in a while :)
     
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  11. Luckysingh

    Luckysingh Canada
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    I really like that explanation Chazji !
    I not only completely agree, but I believe in something very similar that helps explain karma, free-will and hukam altogether!


    Karma is simply cause/effect, action/reaction, input/output, reap/sow...etc..
    It is all about what I do here and now in this life.
    If I commit crimes and encounter extreme suffering, then it is not about my past life, past sins or my parents or ancestors past or sins, it is ALL because of the effects of the laws of karma here and now.

    Similar to what you mention, I do think that we create 'positive' or 'negative' hangings over each individual encounter we have with someone.
    This can be something simple as refusing to make a cup of tea, or the bed for your wife to refusing to help a known thief or fraud.
    -Each one of those will create a 'negative' hanging to some degree that was instigated by yourself.
    You probably wonder, why should I help a thief or fraud ?
    Well, the question is there, but so is the choice.
    If you help them with even some 10 bucks they ask from you, then a 'positive' is created. If you refuse in their personal time of need, then a 'negative' will still be created, even if you feel you are doing society a favour!

    REMEMBER- everyone has a point in their life and a time of need that has nothing to do with them being a samaritan or a thief.
    This is why I give the utmost respect to fire-fighters or other emergency savers that risk their own lives directly, because they will save you for being a human. You may be a thief,fraud, rapist,samaritan or priest, BUT they will still risk their own life in trying to save yours!

    (but, according to hindu and rejected karma, all firefighters would be mukht or kings in their next lives!!)


    I think that every encounter that I have in a day with every single being, leaves either a positive or negative hanging on my behalf.
    This is what the karma of now is.
    It is also the free-will that God gives us.
    Because, the Hukam dictates the meeting of two individuals, but the free-will is what decides wether they leave a positive or negative hanging over each other.

    In your example above with the swearing... Waheguru gives you free will so that you can either swear back or cancel all negatives by saying 'God bless you'. Because I honestly don't think that waheguru's hukam dictates that you say f***you!!!

    I won't go off topic into free-will,hukam and karma here, but I think you probably get my idea.


    I think the best way is to explain with a few examples-
    Eg.... We have all encountered this example at some point in our family lives-
    It's when your cousin or parent informs you not to speak or acknowledge another relative because they have upset so and so...
    So, we are instructed to not stand by, acknowledge or speak to some cousin who you have always got on with.
    -What everyone does, is up to them and varies according to circumstances, but what should we really do ?

    This is where simple maths comes in !!!!
    Although, it can get complicated!!
    You have to simply see what action outweighs all the negatives. So a positive move towards your uncle so and so gives a positive that you 'directly' control and a negative from your mother that is indirectly controlled.
    You could say the direct positive = +2 and the indirect negative = -1,
    Therfore, the result is an overall +1.
    (direct=2 and indirect =1)

    Compare this to if you do as your mother says ??
    Then you create a direct negative with between you and uncle so and so which is a -2, but you maintain an indirect positve between you and mother which is a +1,
    ..... the overall effect is a -1.

    I can see, that the best approach is to approach someone and create a postive instead of standing back and letting a negative erupt.

    THE LESSON IS- If a so called upsetting commercial move can somehow result in a 'direct positive', then you should always proceed in this manner.

    Sounds to easy to say, but in reality it gets complicated.
    But from my experience, I cannot ever find a fault in the result using this personal system.
    However, it can get quite complicated at times when trying to involve lots of different encounters and reactions all in one.

    Eg.2)
    Another little example is how these effects can hang over us and how waheguru ji makes it possible by giving us chances to use our free will to abolish them !

    My cousin who is a famous alcoholic and gambler, comes begging to me for a few hundred bucks to help fund his kids college fees.
    Knowing that the chances of money ending up in the liquor store or casino/betting kiosk are quite high, - I kindly refuse and directly create a 'negative' effect.
    There is no point of getting into the morals of what one really should or should not do, but the point is that a 'negative' hangs like a bubble in a comic over the two of you and you contributed to it directly by refusing.


    I find that in these scenarios the hukam and wahguru always jump in later on to help and counteract.
    They dont wipe it off the slate, but give us an opportunity to wipe it off.


    For example....later on after a few weeks.............
    His wife approaches me feeling really embarrased and telling me that cousin has squandered all the savings for the college fund.!
    Now, I can wipe off that negative by giving a the few hundred and creating a different direct positive with his wife and an indirect postive with him when he finds out.


    The hukam of wahgeuru may also place us in a completely different scenario such as my kid comes up and says that a best friend's parents have lost their jobs and they will have to leave the area unless they don't have a couple of thousand by the month!!
    This will mean that my child will lose their best friend and have this weight on their conscious that the friends family could have been helped.!!

    REACTION- should be to counteract the previous negative I had hanging over me by contributing much more maybe even triple to the needy in this case.

    (I have had both scenarios happen to me in the past and I'm sure most of you have had something similar)
    Everytime, something occurs or mostly when we think '' NOT AGAIN!!!''
    or ''Why does this always happen with me??'
    or '' ''Why am I always the one getting asked??''
    Haven't we all said this to ourselves at some point ?????

    Next time we question the above, we should stand back and think !!
    It is mostly because waheguru ji is giving us the opportunity to fix or counteract a negativity that we created.
    We should consider ourselve lucky that we get this chance, because I'm sure that we all create so many indirect negativities without ever realising.

    This is what the appey beej appey hi kaho, or reap and sowing actually means to me.
    Like I said, I think that we have so many indirect negativies hanging over us. Because it is not in our hands if some one is upset or angry because of some action or belief of ours.


    -This is what I believe the Guru's gave us instructions to counteract and beat.
    Being a gurmukh or going that way by lving and breathing in a gurmat lifestyle, we can abolish all the unintentional and indirect negativities that hang over us.
    They are all created by human actions, they don't come with us at birth and they don't get passed down family generations.


    The less we have, then the closer we become to getting disassociated with wordly entanglements and becoming a gurmukh and immersed in the supreme Truth!
     
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  12. Archived_member14

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    Ambarsaria ji,


    Let us find out what the denial of Karma emanates from, falsehood and false conjectures or an understanding of the Truth.


    What then is the Truth against which this Law is judged as false?


    *This* is conjecture.
    To start with, what has necessitated the idea of things been created and therefore a creator? The concept of good vs. evil comes from the very fact that two different experiences in our lives have different characteristics, functions and manifestations and that these cause different reactions in people. What they truly are and what are the causes and conditions for their arising, this we are ignorant of, hence the speculations.

    Understanding would have it that the law of moral cause and effect is inherent in the very nature of good and evil states (precisely the mental factor of intention). This however, is being overlooked due to being drawn in by the speculative idea of creator / creation against which moral states are then seen as subjected to an arbitrary law, re: the will of the creator. Is this not a case of the individual projecting his own ignorance?


    Are you referring to societal rules?
    Here again, instead of asking the right questions such as that, “why is it that killing, stealing, lying, malicious speech, gossiping, ill-will for example, are considered bad, and generosity, moral restraint, kindness, compassion and so on are considered good, by all people of all times?”, and perhaps come to consider that in fact these are real phenomena with distinct characteristics, knowable when experienced. Instead, having been drawn by the idea of “greater expanse” you make them inconsequential and unworthy of consideration. Yet the fact remains that you will continue to be driven by these same realities not only till the end of this life but also beyond, while forever remaining ignorant of what they really are.



    Do you know the truth of the law of conservation of energy other than by being convinced through reason? Do you take reasoning using different concepts, as determinative of the Truth? But of course I am guessing that five hundred years ago, when the law of conservation of energy was still unknown, you'd have accepted it in principle due to a materialist / eternalist view influencing your thoughts.

    The law of gravity and conservation of energy are conventional manifestations of underlying laws between physical realities about which science does not and will never have a clue. It is with similar cluelessness that you approach the question of birth, life and death under the influence of speculative theories where certain concepts are made to appear valid through use of reason, and no understanding of the here and now is ever involved.

    “The world! The world!” is the saying, lord. Pray, how far, lord, does this saying go?
    What is transitory by nature, Ånanda, is called “the world” in the Ariyan discipline. And what, Ånanda, is transitory by nature? The eye, Ånanda, is transitory by nature…objects…tongue…mind is transitory by nature, mind-states, mind-consciousness, mind-contact, whatsoever pleasant feeling or unpleasant feeling or indifferent feeling arises owing to mind-contact, that also is transitory by nature. What is thus transitory, Ånanda, is called “the world” in the Ariyan discipline."



    If a rock slides down the hill and hits me, the rock sliding down is solely due to a series of physical phenomena, including gravity. My being there and hit is due to several causes and conditions, some physical and some mental. The intensity of injury depends on many factors including the weight and angle of the rock and which part of the body is hit. The bodily pain how much or little, being a mental phenomena, is the result of another mental phenomena in the past, namely karma, and this, not only one, but many of them, one after another.

    Is this how you conceive of the concept? I doubt it. If you want to argue against karma, try to do so based on this particular understanding and not what you in your own misunderstanding, make of it.


    “Impacts of forefathers”!? Show me how this is not a case of asserting to be true what in fact is purely the product of imagination.

    But you are correct, it must be a case of imagination too to insist on making a connection between one past deed with a particular situation of bad / good fortune in the present. The law of karma is to be understood and not speculated upon.


    People who intend to exploit will use any number of ideas to do so, the concept of God included. Why do you use this fact to prove invalid the concept of karma?


    Free from the misunderstanding by pointing to the motives of those pundits or from the concept of karma itself?


    Ah, forefathers!!?
    So the forefather's influence didn't pass down did it?


    But what if Guru Nanak did not in fact reject karma, would that not make you the one insulting his teachings?

    According to me, denial of karma or moral cause and effect is one of the worst attitudes to go by.
     
  13. chazSingh

    chazSingh Ireland
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    Good post lucky Ji,

    everything we have done, every situation we have come across, and how we dealt with it leaves an imprint in our minds...
    when we come across a similar situation in the future, what often happens, we get bombarded by thoughts telling us to do this that and the other that we did to solve the situation in the past.

    We become slaves to these thought patterns and the cycle continues...
    the trick is to remove that shackle of the mind, so that when the next situation arises, we recognise these negative thoughts and do something 'different' this time :)


    once we start laying down good karams, our thought patterns in our mind start to change and we become better at resolving life situations that we we often would have reacted badly to.

    God bless ji.
     
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  14. Luckysingh

    Luckysingh Canada
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    Of course, you got it there Confusedji !!!!

    All the problems are created by our own inadequacies !

    It's funny because the law of conservation of mass/or energy was mentioned earlier, because when you look at this closely you see that it is on a similar bandwidth as the laws of karma !!!

    We can all see the logic in karma, if one were to look closely.
    I'm sure we can all conclude our own personal adapted concepts like I mentioned in my previous post.
     
  15. Luckysingh

    Luckysingh Canada
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    Everything is part of some sort of cycle or cycles.

    The earth doesn't just stop and start spinning at need, it continues and until then all the cycles will continue.

    Therefore, karma and cyclic karma where the effects of your actions come back to you in full swing will continue.

    If anyone can tell me what concept besides 'Akaal Purakh' is NOT cyclic or part of some cycle, then I shall be really surprised!!
    At the moment, I can't think of anything that is not part of some cycle!!
     
  16. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    Fellow spners let us first review what we are discussing. The thread says the "Law of Karma"!

    What is "LAW": The most appropriate sub-definition that I could find appears to be the following,


    • <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/law
      a : a statement of an order or relation of phenomena that so far as is known is invariable under the given conditions
      b : a general relation proved or assumed to hold between mathematical or logical expressions


    • The arguments or points raised by Luckysingh ji and Confused ji do not even appear close enough to recognize what the word "Law" in the context of this thread relates to.
    What is the prime definition of "Karma":


    • kar·ma
      • /ˈkärmə/Noun

    • (in Hinduism and Buddhism) The sum of a person's actions in this and previous states of existence, viewed as deciding their fate in...
    • Destiny or fate, following as effect from cause.

    • Synonyms

    • fortune - fate - destiny
    We can con-volute all we want, the above is what would be understood by most of those as Karma.

    As you can see from above the reference to "previous states of existence". Guru ji and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji does not relate that we are a product of "previous states of existence". Guru ji and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji does not and does not need to deny how life works from parents to child and so on. It is this fetish of "previous existence" and somehow it being fundamental to future which is rebuked as this is the basis of pacifistic ways of Buddhism, the exploitative and demeaning systems of born in caste, the Brahmin saviors who can get you such bad cycles for contribution, etc. in Hinduism. This is fundamental negative and rejected in Sikhism.

    Sikhs are not destined to be born as pigs, snakes etc., for living their lives which ever way they do and neither is anyone else. Neither are pigs and snakes so the results of previous series of existences or "Joons"/incarnations. Of course within consonance the positives are encouraged and negatives discouraged but this is in the context of moment to moment living.

    I at times am aghast to read certain posts how we as Sikhs set aside some very simple and very early parts of Gurbani like japji Sahib when we try to box life into such concepts. Sikhs are liberated beyond boxes and Sikhs don't try to put creation, creator and rules thereof in boxes like "Karma". Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji again and again re-iterates the vastness and in-finiteness that we so easily overlook while we search for magic wands or silver bullets in concepts and theories. Let us take note of one such example below,
    Sat Sri Akal.

    PS: Confused ji I will attend to your post in time and I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my post. You have brilliant mind and I have cherished and learnt a lot through interactions with you. However it does not mean I will always agree with everything.<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]-->
     
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    #15 Ambarsaria, Jan 23, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2013
  17. harcharanjitsinghdhillon

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    grace of god is the only escape from this law of karma.. till the soul does not find the meaning of love to god,, it still be wondering life after life as a musafir, and being subjected to this law.. till the desires does not get exhausted, the wondering will not stop... return love of god is called GRACE.. this is the power that burns off our sins, and will take us to god head.. god create his laws,, but he can also override it by his grace... law of karma takes us in a circle, but not upwards... this law of karmas comes from omkaar, who also had created time space, maya, ego and duality..
     
  18. spnadmin

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    harcharanjitsinghdhillon ji

    Would you please explain how you came to the conclusion that the law of karma is a law?

    Would you also explain where you get the idea that "sin" is part of Sikh beliefs? I have heard of paap and kurehit but not "sin." Except in translations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

    And finally. Many people on the planet accept the idea that the soul wanders in life after life. For some this is a personal belief. Some even believe it when their personal religion rejects the idea of a wandering soul. Are your speaking for yourself when you talk about the soul wandering like "musafir?"

    Thank you
     
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    #17 spnadmin, Jan 23, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2013
  19. Archived_member14

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    Ambarsaria ji,



    Never mind what the meaning according to the dictionary is. Refer to the Wikipedia instead and let me know what you disagree with.

    Quote:
    Buddhism
    Main article: Karma in Buddhism

    In Buddhism, karma (Pāli kamma) is strictly distinguished from vipāka, meaning "fruit" or "result". Karma is categorized within the group or groups of cause (Pāli hetu) in the chain of cause and effect, where it comprises the elements of "volitional activities" (Pali sankhara) and "action" (Pali bhava). Any action is understood as creating "seeds" in the mind that will sprout into the appropriate result (Pāli vipaka) when met with the right conditions. Most types of karmas, with good or bad results, will keep one within the wheel of samsāra, while others will liberate one to nirvāna.[citation needed]

    Karma is one of five categories of causation, known collectively as niyama dhammas, the first being kamma, and the other four being utu (seasons and weather), bīja (heredity, lit. "seed"), chitta (mind) and dhamma (law, in the sense of nature's tendency to perfect).<end quote>


    Although most people got it wrong, I have yet to meet a person believing in karma who would state it this way, that we are “products of previous states of existence”. Even the Hindu understanding is not like this. Again, from the Wikipedia:

    Quote:
    Hinduism
    Main article: Karma in Hinduism

    Karma is not punishment or retribution but simply an extended expression or consequence of natural acts. Karma means "deed" or "act" and more broadly names the universal principle of cause and effect, action and reaction, that governs all life. The effects experienced are also able to be mitigated by actions and are not necessarily fated. That is to say, a particular action now is not binding to some particular, pre-determined future experience or reaction; it is not a simple, one-to-one correspondence of reward or punishment.

    Karma is not fate, for humans act with free will creating their own destiny. According to the Vedas, if one sows goodness, one will reap goodness; if one sows evil, one will reap evil. Karma refers to the totality of our actions and their concomitant reactions in this and previous lives, all of which determines our future. The conquest of karma lies in intelligent action and dispassionate response.<end quote>


    What do you mean by “pacifist ways” and what it means to not be pacifist? You mean as opposed to being proactive / militant? Is Sikh militant?
    Please tell me how life works? Or better still, what is “life”?


    Buddhism teaches about karma and with this itself, does away with any kind of discrimination, having examples of people from all walks of life, including thieves, becoming enlightened. Please explain why you keep making a connection between karma and caste system and in criticizing the one, dismiss the other?


    Not even the Buddha can save anyone. Each person is responsible for his own actions and the result which follow. I think the original teachings of the Hindus also agree with this.


    What according to you is a human? What are the causes and conditions for birth, life and death, be it that of human or animal?


    There is old age, sickness and death in the case of beings and there is wearing away and destruction in the case of the physical world. According to you, is this not part of the consonance? So why evil deeds can’t have a part and only good is encouraged? I mean, would not good and evil both be part of creator / creation?


    Each person is living in his own self-created world; the sooner one realizes this, the better. You appear to me, bound by your ideas as much as the next person.


    You make it sound as if holding on to the concept of vastness and in-finiteness somehow puts you in a position of having a better perspective on things than those who don't. But really, this is just thinking about particular concepts, which by nature is as insignificant as any other thinking / thought. And if you are saying that the wider the knowledge about this and that, the better it is, I'd say that *this* is an obstacle to wisdom / right knowledge.


    This is simply telling us, as science does and Hindu and Buddhist cosmology also do, that there are countless number of planets, star systems etc. But so what?


    Well, even if there were indeed just a small number of planets, studying and having a comprehensive knowledge about them does nothing in the way of developing wisdom. Wisdom would know for example, thinking as thinking, an ephemeral mental reality, therefore insignificant, regardless of what the concept thought about is.
    Please give me an example of a wise act?


    Thank you for saying it. But really, I don't think that I have such a good mind, only different (being ADD). And besides I am not even slightly wise, which is the only thing that I really value. :
     
  20. Archived_member14

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    Luckysingh ji,



    I don't view karma as one does the Law of Conservation of mass/Energy. Karma being intention that is rooted either in wholesome or unwholesome roots, is cause which will bring results within one single "stream of consciousness" (not the best description, but can't think of a better one). This means that this cause and effect has nothing to do with maintaining equilibrium, be it within that one stream or in relation to something else.
     
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  21. Luckysingh

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    No, I don't view it as such either !!
    But the similarity is that for every action their is a reaction, whose magnitude is determined by the factors of the original action!

    This is similar, I would say just on the surface such that 'energy or matter cannot be destroyed, it is simply transferred from one form to the other'

    Superficially, I'm sure you can see the similarity.


    I think the problem that people have with rejecting, is that they don't look at it on the surface as it is on it's own.
    Instead, when you start to associate it with other concepts, is when the complications and validity issues arise.


    Below is an extract from aboutsikhs.com that gives a basic explanation on karma

    <!-- You can start editing here. --><!-- If comments are closed. -->
     
    #20 Luckysingh, Jan 24, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2013

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