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General Why God is Confusing?

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by Sikh80, Feb 22, 2008.

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  1. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    To me God is confusing as I do not understand much except that is stated in Gurbani and that I understand is not likely to take me ahead. I have jotted down a few points that I am sharing with you. I hope you will also have some doubts about God. Kindly post so that we can mutually sort out these doubts. I shall keep on posting as and when I am ready with these. Yes, GOD is confusing to me on many counts in reference to Sikhism.



    Human mind and complexities



    Well yes all the problems are in our mind. The human mind is a complex machinery and its full functioning and its presence in the body or soul cannot be understood by us. Howsoever, advanced may be psychiatry and psychology the depth of human mind can hardly be established and fathomed. Has anyone seen human mind.? I do not think the answer will be in the positive. Unless we know the mind we can hardly have control over it.

    God can only be through the mind. Hence we are to locate and identify the unknowable through the mind that is also unknowable. It may seem paradoxical but it will remain a fact. How can we know HIM in this fashion.? Human intellect cannot reach HIM in this fashion i.e we know HIM through the entity that we hardly appreciate [mind]. The excessive dependence upon the human mind in the search of the Truth is painful. Human intellect [budhi] does not play any effective role in understanding the form less.

    Whenever we think Of God we get no idea as to whom we are visualizing. If HE is formless, as is stated in Gurbani, and unfathomable it stands to logic that we cannot even appreciate the Almighty.

    One is required to control the mind. Is it possible to be without a thought all the time and keep on remembering HIM without another thought entering in the mind?. It is Herculian task beyond the capacity of an ordinary person like me. Thus mind is illusionary so far as the understanding of the primal being is concerned.


    Lack Of Precise Method and Gurbani

    Besides this there is no single precise method that is prescribed to know HIM. Irrespective of the fact, if One is Amritdhari or not, one shall always have a problem in understanding the GOD. Amritdhari can lead spiritually clean lives as compared to non-Amritdharis. But it does not guarantee anything.Everything is said to be as per the pre-ordained and HIS grace. Even after going through the meditation and leading a truthful life one does not become entotled to Turia awastha unless it is pre-ordained or one gets Gifted with HIS grace.

    I know I may be branded as Manmukh but it is besides the point. Do we really appreciate the entire Gurbani and the context in which it might have been authored.It poses another question. One starts doubting the methods prescribed for meeting HIM or appreciating HIM. Gurbani, it is said, can be fully appreciated if one has achieved the Turia awastha. This is also a stage that is not commonly understood and appreciated by us.

    Hence We can meet Him if it is pre-ordained and if HE bestows on us HIS grace and that we meet some saint or holy congregation where in we can sit and remember HIM and sing HIS praises. It is stated in Jap ji sahib that we cannot know HIS limits and hence the conclusion that we can not even praise HIM for that HE is. Our praises will be incomplete. We can only do one thing that is to do Simran in Deep meditation at Amritvella.

    If we apply a simple logic to see as to God really requires us to meet HIM or not one will find oneself in delimma. On what do we meditate upon?.

    We have one Gurumantra. All we can do is to practice this or something like Mool Mantra that contains the attributes of the Lord.


    Doubts about progress of seeker



    In spirituality one does not know the progress that one has done/ made over the number of years. This is the problem of a seeker of all the religions. It would have been simpler if we had known the progress on some scale. This cannot be practical and hence poses another problem for the seeker and he is likely to be in doubt at one stage or the other.

    Gurbani states that we should leave every thing to the GOD. He shall take care of everything as HE is the creator. If HE has to take care of everything then why is it that the world is so wretched or in the same or similar condition. One can put in hundreds of logic to bye pass this. But one sees and decides.

    Singular doubt about Maya and Allied gifts Of God


    It is stated that GOD has given us the followings:
    • Maya the illusion; If this is illusion then why was it produced? It is the production of the Lord. God has created this illusion. There should be a purpose else HE would not have given us. He has misled us by Maya. Why should HE do this? The answer can be that we should find it difficult to know HIM. There cannot be any logical answer to this. If He really wanted us to meet HIM he should not have produced maya the illusion.
    1.The five thieves ; The Punj Chor.[kam,krodh,lobh,Moh Ahankaar] We have been given all this by the almighty Himself. Why? The obvious answer would be that there is some need of these else he should not have given these as God does not give us the things that we do not require. Let us take [ahankaar] or Haume. It is HIS gift to us. He has given this to lead a normal life. We require some sort of ego. Let it be called as ‘working ego’. Can we do without bare minimum ego.? There is no clear cut direction in this regard. But we are supposed to kill ego and become the ‘dust of the saints’. Thus to what extent this ego is to be curbed/controlled is not rationally understood by most of us. It is stated that ‘ego is a disease and is the cure also.’ The statement goes tangent to normal intellect.

    2.How can the cause of disease become the medication.? What is the bare level of 'working ego' that one should have remains a choice of the seeker. It tantamounts to lack of adequate knowledge and appreciation of all that is stated in Gurbani. If Haume is to be curbed and controlled there should be a bench Mark. ‘Those who lose their own selves obtain everything’.[page115-10] Without the Guru, the disease is not cured, and the pain of egotism is not removed.[36-3]. SGGS is our Guru and ego should be killed under the guidance of SGGS ji Maharaj. We need not search for Guru as we have. The egotists may go on pilgrimages to holy rivers, sacred shrines and foreign lands, but they only gather more of the dirt of egotism. By serving the True Guru, filth and pollution are removed.[page 116-10].What is the meaning of TRue Guru here? Does it refer to SGGS ji or someone else.I am not clear.

    Thus by remembering HIM and singing HIS praises ego is removed. The one who gives ego will remove it so that we can meet HIM. This statement/vaak of SGGS ji Maharaaj is not within comprehension of person like me. The Word of the Shabad eradicates egotism and possessiveness.[116-12] .


    3.What is this word of ‘sabad’? We do not know as to what is the word of sabad and how to contemplate on this as has been stated in the Gurbani. Through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, recognize the Lord deep within your own being.[116-4].

    Coming back to the original topic of haume ,Those who eradicate selfishness and conceit, and then find the Lord; they are intuitively immersed in the Lord.[118-2]


    Enshrining the Ambrosial Naam, the Name of the Lord, in the mind, all the pains of egotism, selfishness and conceit are eliminated.[118-12] This is a statge when one is blessed with Naam. What is the solution for the individual who is not blessed with Naam. Those who understand the Word of the Guru's Shabad are very rare. Those who subdue their egotism, come to know the three worlds.[120-14].Again it is stated that those who appreciate the Guru’s sabad are very rare i.e one requires the intellect beyond that we possess to understand the word of Guru’s sabad. We are not only to under stand the guru sabad[gurbani] but are also required to adhere to the guru’s teachings. The Giver of peace is revealed through the Shabad, meditating upon the Naam, night and day.[126-9] In this case the reference is made to the ‘sabad’/Naam. We have two kinds of sabad. One is the Guru’s sabad and the second is the Sabad/naam. One can only know the gurbani by practicing it in full. There should not be an iota of variation.

    Those who reflect upon the Shabad are beyond karma. They subdue their ego, and find the essence of wisdom, deep within their being.128-16].This is again meant for those who have been through the stage of obtaining sabad as they are asked to contemplate on the sabad. But for the seekers who have yet to reach that stage one shall find guidance oneself in this regard i.e for subduing Haume.



    If Haume is HIs gift then should we subdue it to the extent that we become 'egoless'. Likewise we do not know 'sabad', how do we know this to understand Gurbani. If Maya is an illusion created by HIM then Maya must have some purpose or its purpose is to mislead ordinary seekers like us. Had this been the purpose God would not have created this world for ataining HIM. As it is it is stated that it is very difficult to Find HIM.
    Next in line are theTrigunas; Trigunas are also HIS gift. If HE had desired HIM to be known /understood He would not have subjected us to tri-gunas and we should have directly reached the'turia Awastha'. Even Brahma, shiva are also stated to be in Trigunas.[i would stand corrected for this statement]

    I have no answer with me to satisfy myself.I shall request you to kindly ponder over this for some time before responding. You may quote from Gurbani as I have done.
    Thereis least intention of the author to hurt the sentiments .It was essential for me to put my doubts and post them and that is I have done.I am also a sikh and a strong one but have doubts that creep in when the things appear hazy and not transparent.
    Regards to all
    To be…
    [there may be some errors that I shall edit afterwards.
    E&OE
     
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  3. Sikh80

    Sikh80
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    1.Bani the Gift Of The Primal

    The Bani, the Word of the True Guru, is true, absolutely true. The Creator Lord Himself causes the Guru to chant it.[308-5].The bani would include the Banis Of Guru Sahibaans or is it inclusive of The Bani Of Bhagats that is recorded in the Granth Sahib ji. Similarly one cannot infer anything without inviting the wrath of many members that the Bani Of the Dhadis should be excluded from the definition of Bani though it is included in the Granth sahib.It is on account of the Fact that the Dhadis eulogisation of the Gurus is not an elahi Bani. This bani did not come from the creator. Hence the question that the entire writings in the Granth sahib ji may not qualify for the Bani from the creator. You may opine as well.

    2.Resounding Of naam through Bani

    It is also stated that through the word of Gubani the Naam resounds.[ 362-11] What exactly is the meaning of this.? Which is the Bani that is referred to here?. It would be too much of a generalization that one should continuously recite bani and keep doing the Keertan and attain the stage when the Naam resonds in the mind. or

    Is there some different meaning that should be attached to this line.? Had it been taken to be true as it is i.e. in literal sense then doing Bani and Path should automatically lead one to Naam subject to the satisfaction of the other conditions. Kindly opine.

    3.Bani leads to control Of Mind


    Through the Immaculate Bani of the Word, the mortal dwells within the home of his own inner self.[362-18] A reference is again made to the sabad guru.[ bani of word] It is suggestive of the fact that by reciting Bani one gets peace of mind and one remains absorbed in self in the state of bliss. However, are we supposed to be going through 1430 pages of the Granth sahib all the time and be in the state of Akhand Paath or do our Nitnem only and expect the results. It is clear that most of us will not be having a direct answer to these sort of questions. But it is through these type of analysis that we may get some answers.

    4. Contemplative Meditation On Sabad: Meaning

    ’ Singing the Kirtan of the Lord's Praises, the Naam abides within the mind’.[362-3] This is also suggestive that if we are doing keeratn we are likely to be blessed with the Naam. But which Bani? The question remains as it is. ‘Through Gurbani, the Incomprehensible Lord is comprehended’.[362-12] Thus one can comprehend the Lord through the route of the Bani. ‘The One Lord is pervading and permeating deep within the heart; with your mouth, recite the Ambrosial Hymns of the Guru’.[362-12] and ‘Servant Nanak chants the Glorious Words of the Guru's Bani; through them, one is absorbed into the Naam, the Name of the Lord’[494-4]Again here is a route of Bani that is suggested to obtain Naam. Ofcourse, it shall be subject to the normal terms and conditions as stated in the other parts of gurbani. Waaho! Waaho! is the Bani, the Word, of the Formless Lord.[515-17]What exactly is the meaning of this Line.? True is the Bani of His Word, and True is the melody; True is contemplative meditation on the Word of the Shabad.[563-18] Here the word of sabad does refer to the Naam. How does one carry contemplative meditation on naam when it is not blessed upon by the Almighty HIMSELF. To the same effect it has been stated that ‘There is One Bani; there is One Guru; there is one Shabad to contemplate.’[646-8] What is this one word of sabad that Guru sahib is referring to.?If it is Naam, we can do nothing but to carry on with Gurumantra and wait till we are also blessed with to understand the meaning of ‘contemplating the One Shabad’.

    Deep within the nucleus of their heart, is the True Word of the Lord's Bani. Through the Truth, they understand themselves.[769-16] It would probably indicate that the ‘shabad’/Naam resides in our heart as well and one recognizes oneself. What exactly would be the correct interpretation of this line is not comprehended easily.

    5. Emanicipation through the Bani.

    However, the following lines are suggestive that if we work according to the teachings of the Guru one can expect Emanicipation. The Word, the Bani is Guru, and Guru is the Bani. Within the Bani, the Ambrosial Nectar is contained. If His humble servant believes, and acts according to the Words of the Guru's Bani, then the Guru, in person, emancipates him.[982-10] This is where the entire focus works for an ordinary seeker like me wherein Guru sahib states that He guarantees the emanicipation to those who work or lead according to the Bani.[ Leading life according to the Bani is a real sikhi.]

    You may like to opine on the questions that are contained in the posts. These are some of the conceptual doubts and hence I find very difficult to understand God. You may have some other reasons.

    It would be better if the answerer points out the particular question to which he is answering/opining so that a reference to discussion is traced back and some fruitful discussion can take place.

    Regards to all
    E&OE
    The above is subject to editing for the mistakes.
    P.s:If someone finds something absurd; kindly inform me.
     
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