Welcome to SPN

Register and Join the most happening forum of Sikh community & intellectuals from around the world.

Sign Up Now!

What will the Panj Pyare tell you during Khande Di Pahul?

Discussion in 'Questions and Answers' started by Ishna, Jun 10, 2013.

  1. Ishna

    Ishna
    Expand Collapse
    On hiatus
    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    May 9, 2006
    Messages:
    2,942
    Likes Received:
    5,002
    Gurufateh

    Section Six Article XXIV of the SGPC Sikh Rehat Maryada contains instructions for conducting the Khande Di Pahul (Khalsa initiation ceremony). Items P and Q detail the instructions the Panj Pyare are to give to the new Khalsa:

    Do the Panj Pyare have authority to change these instructions?

    I've read on other forums that people say 'the Panj Pyare told me I can't eat eggs' (this is an example only, please don't start talking about eggs); or 'the Panj Pyare told me the daily banis are XYZ': does this actually happen?

    Are the same instructions given regardless of the Gurdwara someone attends? For instance, the AKJ don't have their own written maryada (as far as I'm aware), but they have keski as kakar instead of kesh, so do they change the above instructions to suit?

    How can one be sure what they're committing to, especially if the amrit sanchar is conducted in a language which the new Khalsa can't understand?

    Many thanks.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    #1 Ishna, Jun 10, 2013
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2013
  2. Loading...

    Similar Threads Forum Date
    Regarding Panj Pyare Choosen for Amrit Sanchar Blogs Oct 21, 2015
    First Five Hindus Were Dressed as First Five Dear Ones "The Panj Pyare"! History of Sikhism Jul 23, 2010
    The Panj Pyare today - who are they? Sikh Youth May 1, 2005
    Sikhism The Edict by Beloved Fives - The Panj Piaras - Implications Sikh Sikhi Sikhism Oct 30, 2015
    Guru's Handprint at Panja Sahib Hard Talk Oct 5, 2013

  3. Kanwaljit Singh

    Kanwaljit Singh India
    Expand Collapse
    Apache Spark, Scala developer
    Writer SPNer

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2011
    Messages:
    1,458
    Likes Received:
    2,147
    I think things can only be added to the Maryada. But not taken out or changed.
     
  4. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
    Expand Collapse
    Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
    Mentor Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,623
    Likes Received:
    14,188

    If one keeps "adding" WATER to MILK/Lassee...we all know what happens..right...Maryada is pure MILK..adding water makes it watery..Kachi lassee !!
     
    • Like Like x 3
  5. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,551
    Likes Received:
    19,200
    ishna ji

    AKJ do have a separate maryada - it contains uniquely more than keski.

    It is not unusual for various sects within Sikhi to have a maryada unique unto its own group.

    There is no guarantee that a candidate for khande de pahul will understand and know what is going on. Even some native speakers of Punjabi hear but don't understand what is going on. Often within some sects and even some sangats there is an aggressive push to "baptize" first and learn later by everyone involved. Going in with one's eyes open, surely one would have read and studied enough to be able to follow the proceedings even without fluent Punjabi

    The SRM cannot be amended by the panj pyaare - that would involve a process similar to the one that led to its inception in the first place - global involvement and adoption as a formal document. The SRM is a formal document, and has legal weight within India.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  6. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
    Expand Collapse

    Moderator

    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2011
    Messages:
    5,118
    Likes Received:
    7,945
    practically impossible, given most eateries now use halal

    Seems dear brother Palaingthaji had a point


    .


    don't seem of these people get a guided tour these days?

    my question is the above pure maryada or has it already been had at?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,551
    Likes Received:
    19,200
    Let's go back to ground zero.

    The panj pyaare do NOT have the authority to change the instructions... The reason for SRM was to determine a commonly agreed upon set of practices that most, barring members of kathas like AKJ, could abide by. It doesn't matter if we agree or disagree as individuals on specific elements within the SRM... It is what it is... We are free to ask for explanations. We are free to understand or put understanding on the back burner. We are free to conform.... We are free to disagree and free to deviate... We are not free to renegotiate based on our intuitive evaluation of whether it makes sense to us. If we decide freely to deviate, we cannot have our cake and eat it too: that is, do as we please and blame the SRM for getting in the way. Sikhi is a path of freedom and enlightened choice. Just like everything else in life, we make a choice and understand its consequences.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  8. Ishna

    Ishna
    Expand Collapse
    On hiatus
    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    May 9, 2006
    Messages:
    2,942
    Likes Received:
    5,002
    The other day I was at Gurdwara, talking like an excited chipmunk on crack to the first gori convert I've ever had the pleasure of meeting face-to-face.

    Gyaniji overheard us talking about amrit and things - she's going to India soon and will participate in amrit sanchar at Harmandir Sahib. I said I was still thinking about it all, that I felt I wasn't quite ready, and Gyaniji said: "Sorry about the words in English, but people who say they're 'not ready' yet, it's bullsh*t, they should just do it, they won't know what the dish of Sikhi tastes like without actually picking the food up with their hand and eating it." (we were at langar, he made use of his plate for added effect)

    I looked up amrit sanchars in my country and found one happening very soon, but I think the Gurdwara is part of AKJ. I've asked them by email what their sanchar contains - is it the same as the SGPC one - and they haven't gotten back to me just yet.

    The issue I see, is participating in an amrit sanchar that contains extra instructions above what the SRM specifies. Isn't it only common sense to ask first what you're signing up for before signing on the sugar-water dotted line?

    Am I out of line with this question?

    You can't really argue with people who have received amrit sanchar whose Panj Pyare told them not to eat any meat at all, not to eat eggs, and to recite Baa Baa Black Sheep as part of their daily nitnem. That's what they've signed up to.

    Is it a rude question to ask of the Gurdwara offering amrit sanchar?

    Many thanks again.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,551
    Likes Received:
    19,200
    ishna ji

    Here are my reactions, kind of on the random side, because you are not really asking about theological issues. Your questions make a lot of sense to me on the playing field of every day life and the every day people we encounter in many different places.

    With all due respect to the Gyani ji, I do not know what he is talking about. He, forgive me, sounds like someone who believes he is onto something deep. If you asked him to spell it out for you he might not want to do that using the oft-quoted tuks that warn us that thinking leads to doubt and a life of cynicism. In his world the best thing is for everyone to be on the same wave length. Take amrit and figure it out later. You can't go wrong because the nadar will guide you to the right conclusions. My mother thinks like this. All you have to do is look around to find amritdhari who probably never bumped into nadar eye shut or eyes open, and have not come to the "right" conclusions, per the philosophy of Guru Nanak, just based on their values and behavior alone.

    That does not mean that either Gyani ji or amritdhari as a group are hypocrites. I only means that they are fallible humans like all of us. Gyani's way works for Gyani ji. Not our SPN Gyani ji!!!!! I don't think it will work for you, so just be polite and give him the benefit of believing in his own way. Otherwise, things just become hurtful. He only wants to share his enthusiasm with you.

    AKJ conducts amrit sanchar according to published schedules at various gurdwaras in various locations. Usually there is a web site that lists when amrit sanchar will be offered at Gurdwara xxx in yyytown. AKJ does seem to concur - take khande de pahul first and worry about the technicalities later. There will be many mentors to guide you and make sure you do not fall off the rehat. AKJ is a group experience 24/7/365. Is that how you think you should proceed? If Yes, then why not just do it? If No, you have your answer.

    Often it puzzles me why you doubt your own judgement. Those who could not abide by the SRM at its birth, left the conversation and formed their own jathas accordingly. They wrote their own rehats. Master Tara Singh is a famous example of that. So there is no reason to accept add-ons unless they appeal to you.

    There is one personal story I would like to relate in connection with the total context of your question but my fingers hurt. So it will have to wait until later.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    #8 spnadmin, Jun 11, 2013
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2013
  10. Ishna

    Ishna
    Expand Collapse
    On hiatus
    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    May 9, 2006
    Messages:
    2,942
    Likes Received:
    5,002
    Thanks adminji. :kaurhug:

    Please don't get me wrong, I think Gyaniji at the Gurdwara I attend generally has the right sort of ideas. I think he might get the impression, rightly, that I need a bit of a shove to get moving. Surely he was sharing his enthusiasm, "it's his job". :D He's seen me attending Gurdwara pretty regularly for the last two years, he knows I take Sikhi very seriously (and may have poked fun at it a couple of times).

    Personally I don't want to join a jatha, I'm aligned with the SGPC SRM, plain and simple, which is why I'm paranoid about avoiding an amrit sanchar that is over and above that basic charter. In my own enthusiasm I don't want to rush into something only to discover later that I've committed to something else. I think you understand.

    I've got my answer now from this thread - that although there is standard wording, other groups may add to the conditions.

    Solution: Don't look outside my state for amrit sanchar. Instead, pester my local Gyaniji to arrange a sanchar at our Gurdwara. That'll teach him! haha
     
    • Like Like x 3
  11. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,551
    Likes Received:
    19,200
    Gyani ji sounds like a very sincere person.

    :motherlove: Now if you pester your Gyani ji he just might follow through and arrange khande de pahul. Then the ball is in your court. :japosatnamwaheguru: You are the only one who can decide what to do next.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  12. linzer

    linzer Mexico
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2010
    Messages:
    262
    Likes Received:
    598
    practically impossible, given most eateries now use halal

    Just order the pork chops.:peacesignkaur:
     
    • Like Like x 2

Share This Page