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What will happen if I put my faith in him and pray him to change my orientation ?

Discussion in 'Sikh Youth' started by Seeker2013, Aug 15, 2015.

  1. Seeker2013

    Seeker2013 India
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    We use really big names for god, not just in sikhi but almost every living religion : most merciful , raheem , rehman, karuna-kar , bhagat vachhal , "bhagta di ot" ,..... , all these names indicating the kind god .
    Someone who listens to our prayers and has mercy on us.

    If I am to put faith in religions, that one god has at various times intervened to save the ones who put trust in him. Gurbani even says he took the form of narsingha , so special was prahlaad to him !
    He sprouted a spring of water to feed the devotee Ishmael (son of abraham and hagar) in desert while sarah kept running to-and-fro between mountains seeking help / water.
    ok , we all are not as great as bhagat prahlaad ji or as patient as the prophets/sages , but I don't think he will turn us empty-handed and disappointed if we kept rubbing our noses at his door with dedication in our hearts ......

    After all, what did bhagat prahlad had in his heart other than pure sharda for his 'hari' while his father repeatedly kept warning him not to chant 'hari' . And his sharda bore fruit (so says gurbani) .
    After all, what did bhagat ibrahim (Abraham) had in his heart when his community threw him in fire for rejecting idolatry and accepting monotheism.

    What possibly other than pure faith in THE ONE ? It is like driving through a pitch dark tunnel with faith that you will see light at the end of it, without any logical assurance of that ever happening. And yet it is this faith in the one, this unconditional "he is there for me, he will protect me as he has forever protected the ones who kept faith in him" which is so missing (and infact rebuked as 'ridiculous' )

    Now talking about my own issues : a gay 25-yr old young man living in a country in which all I see is darkness as future, while all the "normal & majority" people around me are enjoying their youth , while mine passes by !
    While others enjoying theirs, me questioning mine . I feel self-pity for myself sometimes. But then again , all I see is hopelessness and despair . I don't see any way out.

    This is harnakash for me, this is the "thirst of ishmael" for me. This is my pain ! my sorrow.
    What could I possibly do other than put faith him while he puts me through this test , possibly due to my past life sins ? but then again he is also known as 'destroyer of sins'
    what could a 25-yr old do when he's so disappointed by romance and love-life while everyone else around him are apparently celebrating it to the fullest ? what could he do when he feels trapped and sees no way out.

    I know I am not making any sense . But faith in god (whom you have never seen, never felt, never touched , ...) make any sense anyways ? How is a god taking a man-lion form to protect his devotee make sense (incident mentioned in gurbani too) ? How is temple rotating to face nam dev ji make any logical sense ?

    So if I put faith in him persevere and ask him to change my orientation from gay to straight , what do you think will happen ? just asking for inputs, thats it.
     
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  3. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    Actually, in my view, Sikhism has the one word, Ikonkar, quite short, nothing flowery, to the point, one Creator.

    why not put faith in yourself instead, one of the biggest battles in a persons life is to find out who they actually are, who are you?
    and has at various times not, so its not exactly consistent is it...

    this is a biblical story about the angry and jealous deity that Christians call God, I fail to see what this has with Sikhism, in fact it confuses me a bit, Sikhi is quite inclusive of all sexual orientations, Christianity is most definately not, so why quote a Christian story to make your point, in Christianity, I am afraid your going to hell!

    Would you be allowed to qualify as a doctor if you rubbed your nose at the door of the university with dedication? no, probably not, so I fail to understand how you can find wisdom, tact, discretion by doing the same.

    all tunnels have ends, so its not that logical, and its certainly not a miracle, but then I guess you can turn anything into a miracle, even juniper berries



    last time I looked, the normal and majority in India seemed quite poor and desperate, poverty is common,

    you will never find happiness, once this is resolved something else will come up, your life is a cycle of faith in deity worship, and then being let down, or not, and then the cycle continues, you will never take responsibility for your own life while you have your deity.

    my input is to find out who you are, people do not change, I am the same man I was at 15, find out who you are and be comfortable with who you are,
     
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  4. Seeker2013

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    Thanks for contributing Harry Haller .
    I don't know what I should do to remove that feeling of hopelessness ? migrating to a foreign country seems like an only option , but even that doesn't guarantee happiness .

    Sometimes I wonder at my life and ask myself "Did I rape some woman in my previous life ? or did I do something really bad to deserve being a modern era shudar guy?"
    I really don't have an answer. Only he has and he isn't talking on those issues :(

    If I marry a woman, I won't be happy . but if I don't marry a woman, I will be lonely all my life.
    I don't know why I had to be a second class citizen . Its not my fault. if only I cud choose .

    as of now I feel bewildered, overwhelmed, panic , frustrated and a mix of all those feelings.
    Should I try getting into a relationship with a girl and see whether it works for me or not ?

    but again, how will I pass the sex part ? surely if ur not attracted to her, u can't function with her in the bed .
    I feel depressed
     
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  5. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    I used to feel like this, and I am not gay, just be who you are, maybe you will do something amazing so that other gay young men will find it easier,
     
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  6. Ishna

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    *HUGS Seeker2013*

    My heart goes out to you, bhaji. Know that you are definitely not alone with your problem. There are plenty of other gay men and women in India facing the same problem and isolation, so try to take some comfort in knowing that you are part of a community, even though it is underground.

    The main thing is to respect, love and value yourself for who you are. You are not being punished for 'past life sins' - being gay is not a punishment! By believing that it is, you are actually perpetuating the negative stance that your government and society has. You are yourself, and as long as you're not hurting people, you can accept yourself and indeed should take pride in being who you are. The fact that you know you're gay, talk about it openly here and acknowledge it in yourself is a huge positive to your character. A lesser man would have buried that part of himself and live his whole life trying to deny it. :(

    Social change is never easy, whether it is tackling discrimination based on race, religion, gender or sexual orientation. The only way these matters get resolved, is by people taking a stand. I know this would be difficult in India where homosexuality is currently illegal, but there are groups mobilizing to tackle it.

    Have you tried making quiet contact with any of the LBGTQ organisations in India?

    http://www.humsafar.org/ - Where your identity is a reason for pride, not a reason to hide
    https://go.allout.org/en/a/india/ - A petition against the governments decision to make it illegal to be gay. Have you signed it?
    http://indiandost.com/login.php - A contact group. Maybe you can make some friends who share your interests.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_India - For some general knowledge.
    http://www.quora.com/Whats-it-like-to-be-gay-in-India - You can read about some other people's experiences, this might help you get a sense of community.

    I hope this helps a little bit to soothe some of the isolation you're feeling, mate.

    Although I don't recommend it, you could look into conversion (reparative) therapy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_therapy , but it's hugely criticised, and is the lesser option, in my opinion. Better to be a Sikh about it and champion the rights of a community under tyranny, to help yourself and others (the therapy is only for yourself, and others in your situation will continue to suffer).

    With regards to faith and god... well... Ik Onkar is the creator of mind-blowing diversity. Gurbani is silent on sexual orientation because it just isn't an issue. The main thing to be concerned about is your own connection to Naam, and the welfare of others, doing good deeds. Rather than conforming to societies negative attitude, it would be better to fight for the rights of a persecuted minority, improving life for everyone, including yourself.

    In that struggle, faith is about developing strength within you. Akaal Purakh is the ocean of peace, is shelter, is sublime reality. You can find relief and strength by connecting with that. Gurbani encourages us to pray for Naam, not for any other changes in our world. For that, our actions are the prayer, and the outcomes are the answers to our prayer.

    *HUGS again*
     
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  7. gmann

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    I can relate to your issues and I think many others can. I am also lonely, and feel the 'normal and majority' are able to enjoy and celebrate their youth while I question my values,views and lifestyle. I have suffered from depression for 10 years now but have found myself to be a lot more excited and optimistic then I have ever been before. This isn't because my values and views have radically changed (if at all) but by being able to better understand and express my frustrations. I am now through better understanding and communication able to see a light at the end of a 10 year long tunnel where there was no light. I think that if you were to put your faith into changing sexual orientation won't work.

    As many people have mentioned already, your orientation isn't wrong. So technically there's nothing you can do to fix that 'problem'. It isn't wrong in Sikhism and anybody who is Sikh and feels you are a lesser person for it isn't really a Sikh.

    As for feeling trapped and seeing no way out, I can also relate. My optimism and excitement as I mentioned earlier is by better understanding my frustrations and being able to express them more clearly and coherently. I think for you not to feel trapped and isolated is to find some sort of practical solution. Without knowing any specifics I can't offer any potential practical solutions. But if you take anything away from this post, remember, you are not the only one with these frustrations, your orientation isn't wrong and the light for the end of the tunnel will appear when you find a viable practical solution (in my personal experience). As there are other people that can relate I would suggest giving these people more specifics to help you find a practical solution.

    Good luck and I hope this helps.
     
  8. Seeker2013

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    u have also suffered depression due to ur orientation ?
     
  9. Inderjeet Kaur

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    Sexual orientation is a sticky subject. It took me 62 years to discover mine. Did you know there is a fourth orientation besides gay/lesbian, heterosexual and bisexual? Some few of us are "none of the above." Not attracted to either sex. Only once in my life did I ever feel attracted to anyone. I think that was more curiosity than attraction because after once, I sort of lost interest.

    This was s not a huge problem, once I understood that this is natural for me and I could stop trying. I just wish I had known about it many years ago and not wasted so much time and energy trying. How many times did I hear, "If you're not interested in boys, you must be interested in girls." No, not true. I don't have to be interested in either sex. I just wish I had realised that back in the day. Asexuals are not oppressed the way Lesbian/Gays and Bis are. No one is violent, but people are often cruel, taunting, deriding. Going all Freudian on me. And me, for all those years, just confused until I read an article in the Huffington Post and felt an immediate identification and a sense of relief. So there's nothing wrong with me after all. I'm just me.

    I hope this doesn't just sound silly to you. Living in a highly sexualised society, as the West is now - and not being able to participate - is lonely, but not dangerous.

    But I digress. I have known many, many gay guys and Lesbians and I don't know a single one who was able to change her/his orientation, with or without prayer. The Creator seems to not want us to change this thing about ourselves. Rather than trying to change, I think your energy would be batter spent finding a supportive LGBTQA community and learning to live a full life secure in your own identity. And you might consider emigrating to a place where you would be more accepted.
     
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  10. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    did you know there is also a fifth, only finding yourself attractive! for onanists everywhere!
     
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  11. Inderjeet Kaur

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    Back in the day, a fifth was generally full of uisge beatha, Bushmills, if God was smiling on you, white lightening if you instead caught the Debbil's attention.

    OK, a wee bit of a diversion, but Harry's response demanded it.:kaurfacepalm:And sexuality is such a difficult topic. Anyway, I think Onanism might be considered a subset of heterosexuality since you are attracted to your own gender.
     
    #10 Inderjeet Kaur, Aug 24, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2015
  12. Harry Haller

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    not if your dressed up as a nun.....
     
  13. Navdeep88

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    Seeker Ji,

    I think the funniest thing about adulthood is the Imperfection of it. You really have to rely on yourself.

    You know what they say 'compare and despair?' It's true.

    A lot of people who are living their "happy lives" made negotiations. They compromised. I think everyone has their one giant frightening encounter with the world where you witness what it actually is and how your vision fits in it.

    I think realistically, theorize all a person wants, it's about self control and chaneling your energy/effort in the world. It's about divorcing perfection and that the world owes you a Platter of happiness and recognizing that happiness is something you harvest on your own. The world owes you nothing. Liberate yourself.

    **The above is by no means, a complete response but a slight reaction only.*
     
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  14. Seeker2013

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    and you're "liberated" by such thinking ? spoken like a true slave .
     
  15. Inderjeet Kaur

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    Here, harry, is this what you mean?
    A 17th Century French noblewoman dressed as a nun, holding her husband's heart? Does this qualify? Note that it's in Brittany which is one of the six Celtic nations.
    And what this this to do with sexual orientation? I don't know, but I'm sure it's in there somewhere.
     
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  16. Seeker2013

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    I find it hard to believe we as sikhs have become so skeptical of miracles our guru could do !

    I was asked to shift from the nice and world class office to the client side , by my company. This new one is like a shed , tiny, ugly and suffocating . The same day I felt as if I am going to faint . I felt dizzy and tingling in my hands as if I was not able to get enough oxygen.
    Next day , before going to office, I went to gurudwara and did ardas in front of my guru to bless me with good health and guidance.
    To listen to guru sahib, I lifted the rumala and opened a random ang of SGGS
    The shabad came thus :

    ਧਨਾਸਰੀ ਮਹਲਾ

    धनासरी महला ५ ॥

    Ḏẖanāsrī mėhlā 5.

    Dhanaasaree, Fifth Mehl:


    ਅਉਖੀ ਘੜੀ ਦੇਖਣ ਦੇਈ ਅਪਨਾ ਬਿਰਦੁ ਸਮਾਲੇ

    अउखी घड़ी न देखण देई अपना बिरदु समाले ॥

    A▫ukẖī gẖaṛī na ḏekẖaṇ ḏe▫ī apnā biraḏ samāle.

    He does not let His devotees see the difficult times; this is His innate nature.


    ਹਾਥ ਦੇਇ ਰਾਖੈ ਅਪਨੇ ਕਉ ਸਾਸਿ ਸਾਸਿ ਪ੍ਰਤਿਪਾਲੇ ॥੧॥

    हाथ देइ राखै अपने कउ सासि सासि प्रतिपाले ॥१॥

    Hāth ḏe▫e rākẖai apne ka▫o sās sās parṯipāle. ||1||

    Giving His hand, He protects His devotee; with each and every breath, He cherishes him. ||1||


    ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸਿਉ ਲਾਗਿ ਰਹਿਓ ਮੇਰਾ ਚੀਤੁ

    प्रभ सिउ लागि रहिओ मेरा चीतु ॥

    Parabẖ si▫o lāg rahi▫o merā cẖīṯ.

    My consciousness remains attached to God.


    ਆਦਿ ਅੰਤਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸਦਾ ਸਹਾਈ ਧੰਨੁ ਹਮਾਰਾ ਮੀਤੁ ਰਹਾਉ

    आदि अंति प्रभु सदा सहाई धंनु हमारा मीतु ॥ रहाउ ॥

    Āḏ anṯ parabẖ saḏā sahā▫ī ḏẖan hamārā mīṯ. Rahā▫o.

    In the beginning, and in the end, God is always my helper and companion; blessed is my friend. ||Pause||


    ਮਨਿ ਬਿਲਾਸ ਭਏ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਕੇ ਅਚਰਜ ਦੇਖਿ ਬਡਾਈ

    मनि बिलास भए साहिब के अचरज देखि बडाई ॥

    Man bilās bẖa▫e sāhib ke acẖraj ḏekẖ badā▫ī.

    My mind is delighted, gazing upon the marvelous, glorious greatness of the Lord and Master.


    ਹਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਆਨਦ ਕਰਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਪੂਰਨ ਪੈਜ ਰਖਾਈ ॥੨॥੧੫॥੪੬॥

    हरि सिमरि सिमरि आनद करि नानक प्रभि पूरन पैज रखाई ॥२॥१५॥४६॥

    Har simar simar ānaḏ kar Nānak parabẖ pūran paij rakẖā▫ī. ||2||15||46||

    Remembering, remembering the Lord in meditation, Nanak is in ecstasy; God, in His perfection, has protected and preserved his honor. ||2||15||46||


    I was happy . Guru ji is saying he is there on my side, preserving me at each and every breath even if I feel breathless.

    Many will laugh at me for believing in such things. There are many harry hallers here on this forum itself and in real world. But the fact that we longer believe in what our guru says and ridicule and make fun of a practice (of taking gur-shabad) in difficult times , a practice practiced by sikhs since times of Guru Gobind Singh, it speaks a lot about us !

    not just sikhs, people in general thesedays are not spiritually inclined . They find it hard to believe that SGGS does give you answer when you seek them. No wonder we as sikhs are so messed up as a community . Its because we don't "believe"
     
  17. Seeker2013

    Seeker2013 India
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    For me , I have reached a stage where I see that one in all religious scriptures I read . As if the geeta and quran though so different yet speak of the same ! the fundamental message is of the same
     
  18. Harry Haller

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    [
    if you believe the Gurus did miracles, continue to do miracles, then that is your right , why do you feel the need to proselytise? What does it matter other Sikhs are sceptical, it is your faith, your relationship, enjoy it.

    I am still not quite sure why this works for enclosed spaces, but not for being surrounded by mobs trying to burn your house down and rape your daughter. Could you explain?

    is it because in Sikhism there are no difficult times? When Guru Arjan Devji was being roasted, I do not recall the story being that he prayed for relief, he bore it like a man, the key here being acceptance, if you accept then nothing is difficult, it does not mean you do not try and change it, but you change it using your brain, that is how I would like to think the message of Sikhism has been portrayed by the Gurus

    With the hand of God on us, except God has no form, no hands, so the popular conception that the Gods huge hand is on our head with a serene look on his face does not wash, to me this statement is about consonance. If we behave truthfully, bravely, honestly, we have the hand of god on us.


    I would say this is about connection

    interestingly, the Bhai Manmohan Singh translation is

    From the beginning to the end, the Lord is ever my saviour; Wonderful, is my Friend. Pause.

    saviour has a very Abrahamic feel about it, but it is very different to helper, the truth is any translation is going to lose a lot, to rely on random translations to live a life seems strange to me.

    not so quick batman, because Bhai Manmohan translation is

    ਆਦਿ ਅੰਤਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸਦਾ ਸਹਾਈ ਧੰਨੁ ਹਮਾਰਾ ਮੀਤੁ ਰਹਾਉ

    आदि अंति प्रभु सदा सहाई धंनु हमारा मीतु ॥ रहाउ ॥

    Āḏ anṯ parabẖ saḏā sahā▫ī ḏẖan hamārā mīṯ. Rahā▫o.

    From the beginning to the end, the Lord is ever my saviour; Wonderful, is my Friend. Pause.

    so he is he really preserving you at each and every breath? or does it depend on the translation?

    its your right, as I said, but if your so confident, I do have a question, why the constant posts about your personal problems? surely you can keep them between you and God? or is it because you lack faith in your system? do you need others validation for Gods word?

    there are? and I thought I was unique!

    depending on the translator of course, and whether its poorenmashi.

    yes, I can see it in my head, lots of Sikhs, uhmmm they are a bit agitated, one of the cowsheds is a bit claustrophobic, ah yes, there they all are, ah right, they are taking a hukamnama, ok, ok wait for it, its good, its good, apparently, god loves Sikhs who battle claustrophobia, and it will all be ok! but wait, another Sikh has translated the hukamnana differently, and oh my goodness golly, he has opened the shed door, my god, he has opened the shed door, its a miracle, now the air can come in and out, its a miracle,

    and what, do tell, is that message?
     
  19. Seeker2013

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    actually the only reason I share my real life happening is so that it may help increase faith of others in SGGS. I don't see SGGS as a mere bundle of 1430 pages . I see it as a container , a vessel of the divine spirit of Guru Nanak ! Maybe that difference explains everything.

    It doesn't work always for me too. But if a shabad comes in a way that it sounds like "rectify your ways, you idiot" , then I bow my head and accept it as it is ! hukam is hukam !

    There are ! but I am not at the level of Guru Arjan dev ji !

    actually translations are for peeps like you :) who perhaps don't even know gurmukhi and have not even lifted a pothi in their whole lives and yet think they know everything about sikhism and its core message as if sikhi is some "2-minute DIY noodles"

    the message is god is one, believe in god , praise god (thats the one thing god likes most ) , love each other, be gracious, etc
     
  20. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    I see, and this vessel of the divine spirit exists to cure your phobias?

    Most of the shabads that have you quoted contain no advice on rectfication or change, most seem to reassure you that the deity you call god is looking down from heaven and making sure your ok.
    So the message of Sikhism is not to accept our situations, that we ourselves landed in, and pray for goddie to change the situations to our benefit, advantage, or convenience? Did Guru Arjan Devji just die for people on his level?
    I see, do you mind if I ask then why all the shabads that you quote, you invariably put huge meaning in the translation that is printed underneath, often quoting the translation to justify your own misguided arguments?

    Allow me to illustrate:-

    ਹਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਆਨਦ ਕਰਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਪੂਰਨ ਪੈਜ ਰਖਾਈ ॥੨॥੧੫॥੪੬॥

    हरि सिमरि सिमरि आनद करि नानक प्रभि पूरन पैज रखाई ॥२॥१५॥४६॥

    Har simar simar ānaḏ kar Nānak parabẖ pūran paij rakẖā▫ī. ||2||15||46||

    Remembering, remembering the Lord in meditation, Nanak is in ecstasy; God, in His perfection, has protected and preserved his honor. ||2||15||46||

    I was happy . Guru ji is saying he is there on my side, preserving me at each and every breath even if I feel breathless.


    However, as I pointed out above, the other translation is


    so, do tell, if translations are for idiots like me, why are you not only quoting them, but actually living your life by them?

    I see, so the message in Sikhism is to praise god, as thats the thing he likes the most. Actually, I think its what he hates the most, if you want to please goddie, be the best you can be, but then I guess its easier to blow smoke up someones bottom, even if its God!

     
  21. Seeker2013

    Seeker2013 India
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    When did I say that god's existence is merely to please me . Universe doesn't revolve around me !
    But god is my eternal father , and so is yours and every1 else's . I ask god for things as a child asks for things from his father , but if a kid refuses to ask his father for things, then is that child necessarily a good one ? that child is you !

    Nope . At a time when I was crazy , I have heard rebukes from SGGS as well and it surprisingly fitted my personal state at that time !

    Guru Arjan Dev ji was sent with a mission ! a mission of whole mankind , to compile SGGS ! and when the evil people asked him to modify the baani or face torture, he chose the obvious option . Why are you even comparing me or yourself to pancham paatshah is beyond me !

    actually thats not intentional . I just quote from the srigranth.org site and paste the default translation I get



    I don't live my life by them ! I know gurmukhi and only read the gurmukhi part . Translation is for you . I never said you're an idiot


    goddie is pleased if you're going to be the "best" you can be ? "best" is subjective anyways, isn't it ?
    how would you know goddie's "best" for you and your "best" for yourself is same ?
    the only person blowing smoke here is you ! I am not lost . Whatever I state, I always have gurbani on my side !
    For eg : you said "see, so the message in Sikhism is to praise god, as thats the thing he likes the most. Actually, I think its what he hates the most",
    again who said this ? where did gurus said this ? where did gurus say "be yourself, be your best and you're sorted and god likes you that way?
    CAN YOU QUOTE FROM GURBANI where its said that WAY ?

    OH wait, what I said was god likes to listen to itself's praises , CAN I support my assertion with a gurbani line ?

    In japji sahib ,
    "keh agey rakhiye jit disse darbaar, muho ki bolan boliye jit sunn dhare pyaar. Amrit vela sach naao , vadiya vichaar"
    (What can we keep in front of god as an offering so that we may see god's court ? what shall we utter from mouth so that listening it god may grace us with love ?
    (Answer:) In the ambroisal hours before dawn, chant the true name and sing and contemplate god's praises)

    "Guru Granth Sahib does speak , but only the ones who have 'bhaavna' (faith and love for SGGS) in their hearts can hear it speak" - Bhai Pinderpal Singh ji

    This is a link to his katha "Guru Granth sahib bolde ne" (Guru Granth Sahib speaks)

    http://www.gurmatveechar.com/audios/Katha/02_Present_Day_Katha/Bhai_Pinderpal_Singh_(Ludhiane_wale)/Bhai.Pinderpal.Singh--Guru.Granth.Sahib.Ji.Boldey.Hun.mp3

    Listen if you want !
    And that's it ! I am done with ya :) god bless
     

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