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what is difference between guru and parmeshwar as per gurbani

Discussion in 'Gurmat Vichaar' started by luthra_sumeet, Apr 24, 2005.

  1. luthra_sumeet

    luthra_sumeet
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    sat sri akal ji,

    I have one doubt about difference between guru and parmeshwar as per gurbani .

    doubt is because as i understand that what 1 guru said can never be contradicted by any other guru ( guru in other mahala).
    but i have two shabad's which do confuse me some what.

    first is .
    "jo ham ko parmeshwar uchre te sab narak to bhuche"
    -mahala 10, guru gobind singh ji
    (pls pardon my spelling mistakes i am writing it from memory)

    second is
    "gur parmeshwar eko jaan , jo tis bhave so parwaan"
    - mahala 5, guru arjan dev ji.

    so do sikhs should consider guru same as parmeshwar or different.

    i don't want a debate about philosophy or point of view about this , i want to know what does gurbani conclusively say, pls quote the shabad from gurbani if anyone remembers because i have been thinking over this for much time now.

    regards,

    -Sumeet
     
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  3. Archived_member2

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    Satsriakal to all and Sumeet Singh Ji!

    What convinced you that the two references, you mentioned, are opposite?


    Balbir Singh
     
  4. luthra_sumeet

    luthra_sumeet
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    The confusion is there because first shabad suggests that guru is asking followers not to call him parmeshwar, and people doing so are condemned to hell (metaphorically speaking).
    second shabad as i think it is that guru and parmeshwar should be considered as same. i asked this question in some other forum too, people did came out with answers but among thme i dont know which is the correct one. some answers were :-
    1) in 2nd shabad the guru is shabad guru so shabad guru and parmeshwar should be considered as same, and what ever happens , it happens with his wish
    2)in 2nd shabad the gur parmeshwar is single word referring to parmeshwar and he is the supreme, and what ever happens , it happens with his wish.

    -Sumeet
     
  5. CaramelChocolate

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    1. Please translate the quotes.
    2. As per SIKH belief the Gurus are not God. A Sikh cannot justify this belief. One who believes one of the Gurus to be an incarnation of God is a Hindu.
     
  6. luthra_sumeet

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    if these questions/comments is for me caramel,
    1)My intention is that I want to know the right translation itself and want to know what should be the correct translation as per gurbani. I have already shared what all translations i think and i have recieved from other forums
    2) here we dont have any prejudice against any religion, there are many religions in the world and sikhi recognises that god can be attained by any of them.
    "ek pita ekas ke ham barak"

    also in my view it is not whether guru is god but whether should we ardaas too guru as god himself or not.(no personals views wanted, but as per gurbani's shabad).

    PS:we have a shabad by a bhagat(I guess gurudas ji) in gurbani who says "guru nanak aap narayan".
     
  7. CaramelChocolate

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    I would like to start of this response with a beautiful quote.​

    joqI hU pRBu jwpdw ibnu sqgur bUJ n pwie ]​
    jothee hoo prabh jaapadhaa bin sathagur boojh n paae ||
    Through His Light, God is revealed. Without the True Guru, understanding is not obtained. [35]

    Yes I know Sikhism says God can be reached by many ways, but what annoys me is the Hindus who say Guru Nanak is God purely because he was composed of these three things: Indian, Infuential spiritual leader, Born into Hinduism.

    I guess this attitude could be regarded as racist.

    kImiq pwie n kihAw jwie ]
    keemath paae n kehiaa jaae ||
    His Value cannot be estimated; He cannot be described. [9]

    sqguru syiv gux inDwnu pwieAw iqs dI kIm n pweI ]
    sathagur saev gun nidhhaan paaeiaa this dhee keem n paaee ||
    Serving the True Guru, one finds the Lord, the Treasure of Excellence. His Value cannot be estimated. [32]

    kImiq khxu n jweIAY swgru guxI AQwhu ]
    keemath kehan n jaaeeai saagar gunee athhaahu ||
    His Value cannot be estimated; He is the Vast Ocean of Excellence. [46]

    qw kI kImiq nw pvY jy locY sBu koie ]
    thaa kee keemath naa pavai jae lochai sabh koe ||
    His Value cannot be estimated, even though everyone may wish to do so.[60]

    siqguru syiv gux inDwnu pwieAw iqs kI kIm n pweI ]
    sathigur saev gun nidhhaan paaeiaa this kee keem n paaee ||
    Serving the True Guru, I have found the Treasure of Excellence. Its value cannot be estimated. [65]

    There we see solid proof that Shri Guru Granth Sahib is NOT God. I can not only estimate it's value but I can tell it's value how many pages it has [limbs if personification is your thing], how many words it has, the basic knowledge it has.

    ibnu gur mYlu n auqrY ibnu hir ikau Gr vwsu ]
    bin gur mail n outharai bin har kio ghar vaas ||
    Without the Guru, this pollution is not removed. Without the Lord, how can there be any homecoming? [18]

    gur ibnu ikau qrIAY suKu hoie ]
    gur bin kio thareeai sukh hoe ||
    Without the Guru, how can anyone swim across to find peace? [20]

    Shri Guru Granth Sahib cannot be God as it says you need a Guruji to direct you to God and also says God is in comprehensible, therefore, if Guruji is God then Guruji cannot be comprehended so no-one can gain ANY knowledge from it making Sikhism a totally pointless religion!
     
  8. Archived_member2

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    Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!

    Almost all live and talk with the constant awareness of ego.

    An enlightened person lives and talks with the constant awareness of God.

    Guru Gobind Singh Ji's evidence is from Dasam Granth in these words.

    "Main hoon Param Purakh ka Daasaa,
    Daykhan aayon jagat tamaasaa.
    Jo ham ko Parmeshwar uncharhen,
    Te sab Narak Kund mayn parhen."

    Others see Gurdev as a personified individual, who uses the word 'main' (I) for him.

    Gurdev watches Himself 'Param Purakh ka Daasaa'. He is aware of His ego (main) serving the Supreme who has come to see the world's play.
    Gurdev further sings that those, who enunciate 'ham' (his ego) as Parmeshwar, are all condemned to inferno.

    Dear Sumeet Ji Guru Gobind Singh Ji has not used here the word 'Guru'.

    He has not said that 'Jo Guru ko Parmeshwar uncharhen, te sab Narak Kund mayn parhen.'

    Thanks for your wonderful references.

    I am in joy sharing this explanation with you and all.

    Love.


    Balbir Singh
     
  9. japjisahib04

    japjisahib04 Kuwait
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    During the ministry of Guru Nanak it was a general belief that Ganesh is Sidhi Datta (donor of supernatural power) and Sarswati is Budhi Datta (donor of spiritual knowledge), which are the two main requirement of mankind. Guru Nanak says if these two powers can be obtained from anyone other than the God, then there is no need to worship God. Guru Nanak declared that Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva, Ganesh, Saraswati and Indra etc. all are the creation and Will of One Supreme God and they are subject to birth and death. They can be the object of veneration but not object of human worship. He further clarified that none of these deities have independent authority and thus are not attribute or aspect of God. He says, “It is God alone who is the Doer of deeds. There is none else.” – Guru Granth ang.276.18. Hence the creation has to worship the Creator – the Almighty God in His abstract form i.e. baani - the Gur Sabd. Gurabni tells us 'thakhur ek sabhai naar- Our relation with God is like husband and wife." So why we do need an outsiders in our spiritual journey. It is only when dispute arises intermediatary needs comes. Our gurus have addressed themselves in Gurbani as Mahal - wife.
    Guru Nanak was careful in the concept of God, so that people will not blindly pray to him (while considering Guru) but rather to the omnipresent, almighty, formless God or Waheguru. Never ever was this beauty so disclosed in the hearts of humans as in these heart piercing words. nwnk eyko psirAw dUjw kh idRstwr ] - The One is All-pervading; where is any other to be seen? There is only one Thakur who is doing it all. It is all an expanse of this ONE IK ONG-KAAR.His creativity is infinite and His method of self creativity is a real wonder when we look at the creation and growth of living organisms. All this is to say that dualities and human gurus are creation of we humans; the ‘Ultimate Reality is only One and we should not get entangled in the complications created by the dualities.
    Guru Granth is a living scripture open to contemporary interpretation. And this is what Guru Granth means to a Sikh. Unlike interpretation of some other scriptures, it is neither history nor mythology, nor a collection of incantations. Its contents are spiritual revelation, the vision of the cosmic order and exhortation to the higher life. Further this is the only scripture, which corroborates modern scientific theories in the domain of cosmology. Gurbani, page after page, dwells upon the kernel without its shell, the essence - the Naam. Gurbani does not belong to any particular religion. In addition Guru Nanak's verses appear in Question-Answer style more than hundred times in Guru Granth Sahib and in a very easy and spoken language.
    So it does not any further human Guru. Satguru is consolidated Guru, is spiritual, exists forever, has been existing forever, is free from the cycle of birth and death and is divine knowledge (Satguru ki Baani). As a divine word (the Sabd/Gurmantar), is divine spirit (Jyot) with melody, residing in everybody? This is the intermediate link between the devotee and God, as the vehicle/channel to meet God. This was declared on the bases of Guru Nanak's declaration, 'Sabd Guru surt dhun chela' (Sabd is Guru and consciousness towards it makes one his disciple - Sikh). Since the Sabd is the Guru, and Sabd is incorporated into the Granth, therefore, the Granth is the Guru. Instead of difficult Sanskrit or Persian, it is written in spoken language Punjabi of the people which is in Gurmukhi script, thus eliminating the intermediary like Pandit, Mullah for reading, writing or translating and giving importance to them and who further dictate their terms and bring duality. In that respect it is a unique scripture among the source books of religion.
    Regards Sahni Mohinder
     
  10. luthra_sumeet

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    Thank you all caramel,Balbir singh ji,Mohinder sahni ji for enlightening me about the Gurbani and helping me to dispel my doubts.

    regards,
    -Sumeet
     
  11. hpreet

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    Yes I know Sikhism says God can be reached by many ways, but what annoys me is the Hindus who say Guru Nanak is God purely because he was composed of these three things: Indian, Infuential spiritual leader, Born into Hinduism.

    I didnt get your point. Gurbani says God to exist in two forms 'Sargun' and 'Nirgun'. How can you quote those lines fron SGGS which talk about God as 'Nirgun' and come to a conclusion that he didnt come as 'Sargun swaroop'.

    There are plenty of kathas and gurbani lines which tell us how the the Sikhs felt towards our Gurus.

    I feel its not a good thing to compare our point with other religions like Hinduism and come to any conclusion.
     
  12. drkhalsa

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    As i understand the whole creation is the Sargun form of Akal Purakh
     

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