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Islam What else is there if not friendship?

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by Ishna, Jul 1, 2012.

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  1. Ishna

    Ishna
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    I found this passage in The 'Imrans chapter ( I believe that's chapter 3) in a translation of the Koran:

    Let not believers make friends with infidels in preference to the faithful - he that does this has nothing to hope for from God - except in self-defence. God admonishes you to fear Him: for to God shall all return

    What should the relationship be between the faithful and the infidels?
     
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  3. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    I understand it to be Master (Faithful)-Slave(Infidel) or Master(Faithful)-Animal (Infidel) but stand corrected.

    Regards.
     
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  4. Luckysingh

    Luckysingh Canada
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    I think that explains it much better, although the infidel could refer to non-believers and humans below God in general..ie.Having more faith in another human compared to the master or God is not the way.
     
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  5. Ruqa

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    It says don't put the non-believers before the believers (Muslims) when it comes to friendship.
     
  6. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    p198

    ਗਉੜੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ गउड़ी महला ५ ॥ Ga▫oṛī mėhlā 5. Gauree, Fifth Mehl:
    ਹਰਿ ਕੇ ਦਾਸ ਸਿਉ ਸਾਕਤ ਨਹੀ ਸੰਗੁ ॥ हरि के दास सिउ साकत नही संगु ॥ Har ke ḏās si▫o sākaṯ nahī sang. The Lord's servant does not associate with the faithless cynic.

    p1244
    ਪਉੜੀ ॥ पउड़ी ॥ Pa▫oṛī. Pauree:
    ਜਿਨ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਦੁਸਟੁ ਹੈ ਨਕ ਵਢੇ ਨਕ ਵਢਾਇਆ ॥ जिन अंदरि निंदा दुसटु है नक वढे नक वढाइआ ॥ Jin anḏar ninḏā ḏusat hai nak vadẖe nak vaḏẖā▫i▫ā. Those who are filled with vicious slander, shall have their noses cut, and be shamed.
    ਮਹਾ ਕਰੂਪ ਦੁਖੀਏ ਸਦਾ ਕਾਲੇ ਮੁਹ ਮਾਇਆ ॥ महा करूप दुखीए सदा काले मुह माइआ ॥ Mahā karūp ḏukẖī▫e saḏā kāle muh mā▫i▫ā. They are totally ugly, and always in pain. Their faces are blackened by Maya.
    ਭਲਕੇ ਉਠਿ ਨਿਤ ਪਰ ਦਰਬੁ ਹਿਰਹਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਚੁਰਾਇਆ ॥ भलके उठि नित पर दरबु हिरहि हरि नामु चुराइआ ॥ Bẖalke uṯẖ niṯ par ḏarab hirėh har nām cẖurā▫i▫ā. They rise early in the morning, to cheat and steal from others; they hide from the Lord's Name.
    ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਤਿਨ ਕੀ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਮਤ ਕਰਹੁ ਰਖਿ ਲੇਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਇਆ ॥ हरि जीउ तिन की संगति मत करहु रखि लेहु हरि राइआ ॥ Har jī▫o ṯin kī sangaṯ maṯ karahu rakẖ leho har rā▫i▫ā. O Dear Lord, let me not even associate with them; save me from them, O my Sovereign Lord King.

    p1369
    ਕਬੀਰ ਮਨੁ ਪੰਖੀ ਭਇਓ ਉਡਿ ਉਡਿ ਦਹ ਦਿਸ ਜਾਇ ॥ कबीर मनु पंखी भइओ उडि उडि दह दिस जाइ ॥ Kabīr man pankẖī bẖa▫i▫o ud ud ḏah ḏis jā▫e. Kabeer, the mind has become a bird; it soars and flies in the ten directions.
    ਜੋ ਜੈਸੀ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਸੋ ਤੈਸੋ ਫਲੁ ਖਾਇ ॥੮੬॥ जो जैसी संगति मिलै सो तैसो फलु खाइ ॥८६॥ Jo jaisī sangaṯ milai so ṯaiso fal kẖā▫e. ||86|| According to the company it keeps, so are the fruits it eats. ||86||
    ਕਬੀਰ ਜਾ ਕਉ ਖੋਜਤੇ ਪਾਇਓ ਸੋਈ ਠਉਰੁ ॥ कबीर जा कउ खोजते पाइओ सोई ठउरु ॥ Kabīr jā ka▫o kẖojṯe pā▫i▫o so▫ī ṯẖa▫ur. Kabeer, you have found that place which you were seeking.
    ਸੋਈ ਫਿਰਿ ਕੈ ਤੂ ਭਇਆ ਜਾ ਕਉ ਕਹਤਾ ਅਉਰੁ ॥੮੭॥ सोई फिरि कै तू भइआ जा कउ कहता अउरु ॥८७॥ So▫ī fir kai ṯū bẖa▫i▫ā jā ka▫o kahṯā a▫or. ||87|| You have become that which you thought was separate from yourself. ||87||
    ਕਬੀਰ ਮਾਰੀ ਮਰਉ ਕੁਸੰਗ ਕੀ ਕੇਲੇ ਨਿਕਟਿ ਜੁ ਬੇਰਿ ॥ कबीर मारी मरउ कुसंग की केले निकटि जु बेरि ॥ Kabīr mārī mara▫o kusang kī kele nikat jo ber. Kabeer, I have been ruined and destroyed by bad company, like the banana plant near the thorn bush.
    ਉਹ ਝੂਲੈ ਉਹ ਚੀਰੀਐ ਸਾਕਤ ਸੰਗੁ ਨ ਹੇਰਿ ॥੮੮॥ उह झूलै उह चीरीऐ साकत संगु न हेरि ॥८८॥ Uh jẖūlai uh cẖīrī▫ai sākaṯ sang na her. ||88|| The thorn bush waves in the wind, and pierces the banana plant; see this, and do not associate with the faithless cynics. ||88||
    ਕਬੀਰ ਭਾਰ ਪਰਾਈ ਸਿਰਿ ਚਰੈ ਚਲਿਓ ਚਾਹੈ ਬਾਟ ॥ कबीर भार पराई सिरि चरै चलिओ चाहै बाट ॥ Kabīr bẖār parā▫ī sir cẖarai cẖali▫o cẖāhai bāt. Kabeer, the mortal wants to walk on the path, carrying the load of others' sins on his head.
    ਅਪਨੇ ਭਾਰਹਿ ਨਾ ਡਰੈ ਆਗੈ ਅਉਘਟ ਘਾਟ ॥੮੯॥ अपने भारहि ना डरै आगै अउघट घाट ॥८९॥ Apne bẖārėh nā darai āgai a▫ugẖat gẖāt. ||89|| He is not afraid of his own load of sins; the road ahead shall be difficult and treacherous. ||89||
    ਕਬੀਰ ਬਨ ਕੀ ਦਾਧੀ ਲਾਕਰੀ ਠਾਢੀ ਕਰੈ ਪੁਕਾਰ ॥ कबीर बन की दाधी लाकरी ठाढी करै पुकार ॥ Kabīr ban kī ḏāḏẖī lākrī ṯẖādẖī karai pukār. Kabeer, the forest is burning; the tree standing in it is crying out,
    ਮਤਿ ਬਸਿ ਪਰਉ ਲੁਹਾਰ ਕੇ ਜਾਰੈ ਦੂਜੀ ਬਾਰ ॥੯੦॥ मति बसि परउ लुहार के जारै दूजी बार ॥९०॥ Maṯ bas para▫o luhār ke jārai ḏūjī bār. ||90|| Do not let me fall into the hands of the blacksmith, who would burn me a second time. ||90||
    ਕਬੀਰ ਏਕ ਮਰੰਤੇ ਦੁਇ ਮੂਏ ਦੋਇ ਮਰੰਤਹ ਚਾਰਿ ॥ कबीर एक मरंते दुइ मूए दोइ मरंतह चारि ॥ Kabīr ek maranṯe ḏu▫e mū▫e ḏo▫e maranṯah cẖār. Kabeer, when one died, two were dead. When two died, four were dead.
    ਚਾਰਿ ਮਰੰਤਹ ਛਹ ਮੂਏ ਚਾਰਿ ਪੁਰਖ ਦੁਇ ਨਾਰਿ ॥੯੧॥ चारि मरंतह छह मूए चारि पुरख दुइ नारि ॥९१॥ Cẖār maranṯah cẖẖah mū▫e cẖār purakẖ ḏu▫e nār. ||91|| When four died, six were dead, four males and two females. ||91||
    ਕਬੀਰ ਦੇਖਿ ਦੇਖਿ ਜਗੁ ਢੂੰਢਿਆ ਕਹੂੰ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ਠਉਰੁ ॥ कबीर देखि देखि जगु ढूंढिआ कहूं न पाइआ ठउरु ॥ Kabīr ḏekẖ ḏekẖ jag dẖūʼndẖi▫ā kahū▫aʼn na pā▫i▫ā ṯẖa▫ur. Kabeer, I have seen and observed, and searched all over the world, but I have found no place of rest anywhere.
    ਜਿਨਿ ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਚੇਤਿਓ ਕਹਾ ਭੁਲਾਨੇ ਅਉਰ ॥੯੨॥ जिनि हरि का नामु न चेतिओ कहा भुलाने अउर ॥९२॥ Jin har kā nām na cẖeṯi▫o kahā bẖulāne a▫or. ||92|| Those who do not remember the Lord's Name - why do they delude themselves in other pursuits? ||92||
    ਕਬੀਰ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਕਰੀਐ ਸਾਧ ਕੀ ਅੰਤਿ ਕਰੈ ਨਿਰਬਾਹੁ ॥ कबीर संगति करीऐ साध की अंति करै निरबाहु ॥ Kabīr sangaṯ karī▫ai sāḏẖ kī anṯ karai nirbāhu. Kabeer, associate with the Holy people, who will take you to Nirvaanaa in the end.
    ਸਾਕਤ ਸੰਗੁ ਨ ਕੀਜੀਐ ਜਾ ਤੇ ਹੋਇ ਬਿਨਾਹੁ ॥੯੩॥ साकत संगु न कीजीऐ जा ते होइ बिनाहु ॥९३॥ Sākaṯ sang na kījī▫ai jā ṯe ho▫e bināhu. ||93|| Do not associate with the faithless cynics; they would bring you to ruin. ||93||
    ਕਬੀਰ ਜਗ ਮਹਿ ਚੇਤਿਓ ਜਾਨਿ ਕੈ ਜਗ ਮਹਿ ਰਹਿਓ ਸਮਾਇ ॥ कबीर जग महि चेतिओ जानि कै जग महि रहिओ समाइ ॥ Kabīr jag mėh cẖeṯi▫o jān kai jag mėh rahi▫o samā▫e. Kabeer, I contemplate the Lord in the world; I know that He is permeating the world.
    ਜਿਨ ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਚੇਤਿਓ ਬਾਦਹਿ ਜਨਮੇਂ ਆਇ ॥੯੪॥ जिन हरि का नामु न चेतिओ बादहि जनमें आइ ॥९४॥ Jin har kā nām na cẖeṯi▫o bāḏėh janmeʼn ā▫e. ||94|| Those who do not contemplate the Name of the Lord - their birth into this world is useless. ||94||
    ਕਬੀਰ ਆਸਾ ਕਰੀਐ ਰਾਮ ਕੀ ਅਵਰੈ ਆਸ ਨਿਰਾਸ ॥ कबीर आसा करीऐ राम की अवरै आस निरास ॥ Kabīr āsā karī▫ai rām kī avrai ās nirās. Kabeer, place your hopes in the Lord; other hopes lead to despair.
    ਨਰਕਿ ਪਰਹਿ ਤੇ ਮਾਨਈ ਜੋ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਉਦਾਸ ॥੯੫॥ नरकि परहि ते मानई जो हरि नाम उदास ॥९५॥ Narak parėh ṯe mān▫ī jo har nām uḏās. ||95|| Those who dissociate themselves from the Lord's Name - when they fall into hell, then they will appreciate its value. ||95||
    ਕਬੀਰ ਸਿਖ ਸਾਖਾ ਬਹੁਤੇ ਕੀਏ ਕੇਸੋ ਕੀਓ ਨ ਮੀਤੁ ॥ कबीर सिख साखा बहुते कीए केसो कीओ न मीतु ॥ Kabīr sikẖ sākẖā bahuṯe kī▫e keso kī▫o na mīṯ. Kabeer has made many students and disciples, but he has not made God his friend.
    ਚਾਲੇ ਥੇ ਹਰਿ ਮਿਲਨ ਕਉ ਬੀਚੈ ਅਟਕਿਓ ਚੀਤੁ ॥੯੬॥ चाले थे हरि मिलन कउ बीचै अटकिओ चीतु ॥९६॥ Cẖāle the har milan ka▫o bīcẖai atki▫o cẖīṯ. ||96|| He set out on a journey to meet the Lord, but his consciousness failed him half-way. ||96||
    ਕਬੀਰ ਕਾਰਨੁ ਬਪੁਰਾ ਕਿਆ ਕਰੈ ਜਉ ਰਾਮੁ ਨ ਕਰੈ ਸਹਾਇ ॥ कबीर कारनु बपुरा किआ करै जउ रामु न करै सहाइ ॥ Kabīr kāran bapurā ki▫ā karai ja▫o rām na karai sahā▫e. Kabeer, what can the poor creature do, if the Lord does not give him assistance?
    ਜਿਹ ਜਿਹ ਡਾਲੀ ਪਗੁ ਧਰਉ ਸੋਈ ਮੁਰਿ ਮੁਰਿ ਜਾਇ ॥੯੭॥ जिह जिह डाली पगु धरउ सोई मुरि मुरि जाइ ॥९७॥ Jih jih dālī pag ḏẖara▫o so▫ī mur mur jā▫e. ||97|| Whatever branch he steps on breaks and collapses. ||97||
    ਕਬੀਰ ਅਵਰਹ ਕਉ ਉਪਦੇਸਤੇ ਮੁਖ ਮੈ ਪਰਿ ਹੈ ਰੇਤੁ ॥ कबीर अवरह कउ उपदेसते मुख मै परि है रेतु ॥ Kabīr avrah ka▫o upḏesṯe mukẖ mai par hai reṯ. Kabeer, those who only preach to others - sand falls into their mouths.
    ਰਾਸਿ ਬਿਰਾਨੀ ਰਾਖਤੇ ਖਾਯਾ ਘਰ ਕਾ ਖੇਤੁ ॥੯੮॥ रासि बिरानी राखते खाया घर का खेतु ॥९८॥ Rās birānī rākẖ▫ṯe kẖā▫yā gẖar kā kẖeṯ. ||98|| They keep their eyes on the property of others, while their own farm is being eaten up. ||98||
    ਕਬੀਰ ਸਾਧੂ ਕੀ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਰਹਉ ਜਉ ਕੀ ਭੂਸੀ ਖਾਉ ॥ कबीर साधू की संगति रहउ जउ की भूसी खाउ ॥ Kabīr sāḏẖū kī sangaṯ raha▫o ja▫o kī bẖūsī kẖā▫o. Kabeer, I will remain in the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, even if I have only coarse bread to eat.
    ਹੋਨਹਾਰੁ ਸੋ ਹੋਇਹੈ ਸਾਕਤ ਸੰਗਿ ਨ ਜਾਉ ॥੯੯॥ होनहारु सो होइहै साकत संगि न जाउ ॥९९॥ Honhār so ho▫ihai sākaṯ sang na jā▫o. ||99|| Whatever will be, will be. I will not associate with the faithless cynics. ||99||
    ਕਬੀਰ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਸਾਧ ਕੀ ਦਿਨ ਦਿਨ ਦੂਨਾ ਹੇਤੁ ॥ कबीर संगति साध की दिन दिन दूना हेतु ॥ Kabīr sangaṯ sāḏẖ kī ḏin ḏin ḏūnā heṯ. Kabeer, in the Saadh Sangat, love for the Lord doubles day by day.
    ਸਾਕਤ ਕਾਰੀ ਕਾਂਬਰੀ ਧੋਏ ਹੋਇ ਨ ਸੇਤੁ ॥੧੦੦॥ साकत कारी कांबरी धोए होइ न सेतु ॥१००॥ Sākaṯ kārī kāʼnbrī ḏẖo▫e ho▫e na seṯ. ||100|| The faithless cynic is like a black blanket, which does not become white by being washed. ||100||
    ਕਬੀਰ ਮਨੁ ਮੂੰਡਿਆ ਨਹੀ ਕੇਸ ਮੁੰਡਾਏ ਕਾਂਇ ॥ कबीर मनु मूंडिआ नही केस मुंडाए कांइ ॥ Kabīr man mūʼndi▫ā nahī kes mundā▫e kāʼn▫e. Kabeer, you have not shaved your mind, so why do you shave your head?
    ਜੋ ਕਿਛੁ ਕੀਆ ਸੋ ਮਨ ਕੀਆ ਮੂੰਡਾ ਮੂੰਡੁ ਅਜਾਂਇ ॥੧੦੧॥ जो किछु कीआ सो मन कीआ मूंडा मूंडु अजांइ ॥१०१॥ Jo kicẖẖ kī▫ā so man kī▫ā mūʼndā mūnd ajāʼn▫e. ||101|| Whatever is done, is done by the mind; it is useless to shave your head. ||101||
    ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮੁ ਨ ਛੋਡੀਐ ਤਨੁ ਧਨੁ ਜਾਇ ਤ ਜਾਉ ॥ कबीर रामु न छोडीऐ तनु धनु जाइ त जाउ ॥ Kabīr rām na cẖẖodī▫ai ṯan ḏẖan jā▫e ṯa jā▫o. Kabeer, do not abandon the Lord; your body and wealth shall go, so let them go.
    ਚਰਨ ਕਮਲ ਚਿਤੁ ਬੇਧਿਆ ਰਾਮਹਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਸਮਾਉ ॥੧੦੨॥ चरन कमल चितु बेधिआ रामहि नामि समाउ ॥१०२॥ Cẖaran kamal cẖiṯ beḏẖi▫ā rāmėh nām samā▫o. ||102|| My consciousness is pierced by the Lord's Lotus Feet; I am absorbed in the Name of the Lord. ||102||
    ਕਬੀਰ ਜੋ ਹਮ ਜੰਤੁ ਬਜਾਵਤੇ ਟੂਟਿ ਗਈਂ ਸਭ ਤਾਰ ॥ कबीर जो हम जंतु बजावते टूटि गईं सभ तार ॥ Kabīr jo ham janṯ bajāvṯe tūt ga▫īʼn sabẖ ṯār. Kabeer, all the strings of the instrument I played are broken.
    ਜੰਤੁ ਬਿਚਾਰਾ ਕਿਆ ਕਰੈ ਚਲੇ ਬਜਾਵਨਹਾਰ ॥੧੦੩॥ जंतु बिचारा किआ करै चले बजावनहार ॥१०३॥ Janṯ bicẖārā ki▫ā karai cẖale bajāvanhār. ||103|| What can the poor instrument do, when the player has departed as well. ||103||
    ਕਬੀਰ ਮਾਇ ਮੂੰਡਉ ਤਿਹ ਗੁਰੂ ਕੀ ਜਾ ਤੇ ਭਰਮੁ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥ कबीर माइ मूंडउ तिह गुरू की जा ते भरमु न जाइ ॥ Kabīr mā▫e mūnda▫o ṯih gurū kī jā ṯe bẖaram na jā▫e. Kabeer, shave the mother of that guru, who does not take away one's doubt.
     
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  7. Ishna

    Ishna
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    Well you hit that one out of the ball-park, didn't you brother? :)
     
  8. Ruqa

    Ruqa
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    Tell you what Ishna ji. I'll try and answer the top question, 'what is there if not friendship?' It's all about prioritizing. I wont sugar coat anything for you. If you truely believe in your religion will you go against it and follow your friends if they want you to do something that goes against your religion? No. Do you consider your actions when you are with them, and question weather your behavior is appropriate and inline with what is expected of you in your religion? Yes. When you go out do you realize you are a representative of your religion and try to display behaviour that reflects positively on you and your religious community within the guidelines of your religion? Yes. On a sunday, say your friends wanted to go sky diving would you put that before going to the Gurdwara? No. Is that 'what else' your religion and your dedication to it? Yes. You have to look after that first and if your friends are still around after you've done that and aren't looking down on you or trying to influence you to go in the wrong direction. Then they have a place in your life. I think it's a bit like 'everyone for themselves'.
     
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  9. Ruqa

    Ruqa
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    Ok on that Ayat. It is better to be around people that share that common goal. ie. Other believers, if you have to choose. And i'll just add hopefully you will get positive things from this. Unity, encouragement, support, understanding and a sense of belonging and because you share a common goal you can work together to get there.
     
    #8 Ruqa, Jul 1, 2012
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2012
  10. Auzer

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    Isn't that shameful Ambarsaria that I explained this verse to you previously and yet , you are spewing your anti-Islamic hate here?

    http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/chris...ns-muslims-worship-same-god-4.html#post161204 (See my post # 29 ... Explaining this very verse) ...

    Anyways , probably you forgot about it....so let me give you the benefit of the doubt here :grinningsingh:
    @ Ishna

    Ishna ji , here is what I told Ambar ji regarding this verse..let me explain it bit further..It might be helpful to you too...

    "This verse was revealed , you know when? Once , during the war (after the battles of Badr and Uhad) , Muslims were planning to attack Meccans (Quraish tribe) ...Many of the companions of Prophet were ex-Meccans (now in Madina) but their families were still in Mecca. One of the Companion of the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) decided to inform Meccans about the plan of the attack before hand and he hoped that in return , Meccans would not retaliate against his family (who was still in Mecca) ... But God told prophet about it and the companion was unable to convey the message to Meccans (He was caught on the way). Prophet called him and asked him why he betrayed..He told Prophet that oh prophet of Allah , I swear my intention was not to betray you at all.I just wanted to protect my family... ON THIS , the verse was revealed that don't take unbelievers (Quraish tribe of Mecca) as your friends...because they can't be your friends. To say it clearly , Allah said that even if that companion helped Meccans , meccans would have STILL caused harm to his family. So this is not a general verse saying Muslims to don't make friends with non-Muslims. Its just one verse took out of its context to malign Islam. "

    And if this is not enough....here is one more source for you :interestedmunda:
    3:28 The Qur’ānic instruction of not taking the unbelievers as friends must be carefully analyzed and understood in the context of the circumstance under which the verse was revealed. The verse and sūrah was revealed in 3 A.H./625 C.E. after the battle of Badr and Uhud when the Muslims were in a state of confrontation with the unbelievers. Keeping this backdrop in mind, whenever conditions are hostile, people of other faith causing the hostility cannot be trusted to uphold the interest of the Muslims (cf. 3:118; 5:51; 60:8-9). According to Rāghib, the key word wali (Pl. auliya) commonly understood to be ‘friend’, ‘a close person’, ‘an executor’, ‘a guardian’ (Or an Ally) etc. It refers to nearness or friendship with respect to help and belief. Under such circumstance if someone makes alliance or friendship with the enemies, then they are on their own, Allāh would not protect them. The message of this verse does not apply to casual friendship at work or school since 60:8-9 expressly allow making friendship with unbelievers who are not hostile to the Muslims and circumstances of war does not exist between them.

    ( Source : http://www.qurancommentary.com/comm3_28.html )

    So the Quran does not say that the Muslims cannot be friends with Non-Muslims or cannot be friendly towards them. The Qur'an clarifies the behavior of a Muslim towards a non-Muslim. The Qur'an says :


    Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.” (Quran 60 : 8)

    The next verse says

    Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong.(Quran 60:9)

    So above verses are the 'general-rule' of Islam regarding the relationships of Muslims and non-Muslims. While the verse you posted was dealing with a specific situation that arose in 7th century Makkah , in the time of the Prophet Muhammad.


    I hope everything is cleared now peacesign
     
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  11. Ishna

    Ishna
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    Thank you Auzer bhaji for explaining the context of this verse. It can be tricky for a beginner reading the Koran to pick where something is contextual and where is it a general statement. Perhaps that is where translations with copious notes come in handy.

    Thanks
    Ishna
     
  12. Kamala

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    Who knows.. rakshas words.
     
  13. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    Sorry I did not check that reference. Thanks for identifying.

    Now with due respect one can walk an elephant through that loophole and do as they please with Infidels.

    Example: A Sikh opens a shop in a Muslim country. The hardliners demand Hizra claiming all he has belongs to them. If one does not comply some can be beheaded or driven out.

    Now to generalize is worst of evils so I will not generalize. Since sporadic incidents have happened through support of locals not as well educated as you, then it is an issue with Islam and not the people persecuted.

    People like yourself need to encourage correctness of application of Koran and speak up. I wonder if you did when a Sikh was beheaded in Afghanistan!

    Let us look at your next citation,
    Again it is a nice corollary of the first verse with same issues. It hinges on the definition of "those who fight you!". In the purists of logic anyone not agreeing or following Islam is fighting to a small or large degree. Again there are incidents where say Sikhs are part of a UN force carrying out peace duties. They will be shot at as "those who fight you!" and we open an environment of differential treatment of infidels in one guise or another.

    I have nothing personal to gain in any statements or posts appearing anti-Islam. I do not go out looking for anti-Islam stuff nor visit any anti-Islam sites as I have no interest in that. I only raise or respond to issues of logic, double speak and differentiation.

    I appreciate that you put in the effort to quote and make us more knowledgeable and I wish you all well in your beliefs and life.

    I hope above clarifies my thoughts. I regret if you find the above still illogical or colored with some nefarious motives on my part, as I have no such intentions.

    Regards.
     
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