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What does SGGS say about "freedom of speech"?

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by BhagatSingh, Feb 6, 2010.

  1. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
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    So what does SGGS say about freedom of speech (Sikh clergy's pain in the a**)?
    I want to know what the Gurus and Bhagats had to say about it.

    What do you have to say about it?

    If you think its a sacred treasure of our species, then how should we go about promoting it?

    If you think we should not allow freedom of speech at all, why not?


    The question was originally intended to be independent of any of the politics taht's going on around Prof Darshan Singh, Kala afghana, Rozana spokesman, etc.
     
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  3. roab1

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    Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singhji Maharaj made us wear shashtrs so that no-one dare take away our freedom.
     
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  4. spnadmin

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    Bhagat Singh ji

    There is no "Sikh clergy." Instead we have teachers. You and Gyani ji and Aman ji and Mai ji and Randip ji and Kanwardeep Singh ji and Mohinder ji and dalbirk ji and NamJap ji and Tejwant ji and Soul-Jyot ji, and all and sundry of the inspired and inspiring members of this forum teach one another. Forgive me if I have omitted a name. Our SPNer Interviews were in part put forth so that we could learn from others who have given thought to their understanding of Sikhism.

    Even those who are not Sikhs, even those who anger us, because they are disrespectful of our Guru ji, teach us in their own way. There will be other teachers in life right up into old age, and unto death.

    So in answer to your question --- if we are free to learn, we are free to speak. We just have to work harder at doing it right.

    Sat Nam - Truth is your identity.
    Narayanjot Kaur
     
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  5. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Gurbani declares..IF one meets a "saint"..then Kichh sunneah..kichh keheayeah Nanak - say something...listen to something...discussion..exchange of ideas...thoughts...
    IF one meets a "cynic"...then its better to keep quiet - even better to avoid him alltogether) The exact word is SAKAT.

    Gurbani also declares..Ros na keejeh..uttar deejeh...DONT be Annoyed/angry (by questioning?/ etc) BUT provide the ANSWERS...( probably in an objective/polite way ) to come to an mutual understanding.

    SACH sunaisee SACH ke BELA...even TRUTH has a Time limit/expiry Date. Truth that has passed its limit/age of expiry...becomes Useless....When Its Time to SPEAK UP..against tyranny, injustices, etc etc..one who Keeps QUIET/shuts up....becomes an accessory to the injustice/tyranny and his TRUTh is useless later. ( Lots of SIKHS were present in the crowd in Chandni Chowk when Guru teg bahadur Ji was executed..BUT NONE dared come forward and proclaim his Sikhi...thier TRUTH was not of much use..later on a SIKH was made so VISIBLE that it became almost impossible to hide SIKHI.

    Some of my thoughts on this matter...we are all SIKHS..and thus always learning...
     
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  6. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    Please tell us what type of freedom of speech you are referring to .Are you referring to forums or speech in public?
     
  7. BhagatSingh

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    Narayanjot Kaur ji, us forum members aren't the Sikh clergy, of course, we (like you said) can only teach and learn from those around us.

    Clergy is the generic term used to describe the formal religious leadership within a given religion. wikipedia

    Who do you think this is in Sikhism?



    Kanwardeep Singh ji
    I'm referring to freedom of speech everywhere.

    Freedom of speech is the freedom to speak without censorship and/or limitation. The synonymous term freedom of expression is sometimes used to indicate not only freedom of verbal speech but any act of seeking, receiving and imparting information or ideas, regardless of the medium used.
    wikipedia


    It seems as if there is a lot of censorship going on in the Sikh community. Smaller levels include different forums. At higher levels, it is the Sikh clergy.
    e.g how kala afghana's book were banned - violation of freedom of speech/expression


    Perhaps, this censorship goes on because Sikhism is a religion or treated like one, i don't know. At this point one would ask, what does the religion, more specifically, its texts have to say about all this.

    Jarnail Singh ji has given the discussion a kickstart. Next step would be to look at some of the shabads he mentions.
     
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  8. Admin Singh

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    Thanks Gyani Ji,

    People like me need this kind of tonic almost on daily basis... Thanks for shaking us up tirelessly... :happysingh:


    Gurfateh
     
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  9. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    Just visit topix site's religions section section and you will get the answer.All religious topics on that site are just abusing religions,their prophets,Guru's Gods etc.All you see vulgar words,vulgar topics,insults.Several people have reported it to topix site but that site is not interested in any type of moderation as a result majority intelligent people have left that site.so censorship is very much essential for any site,blog O/W we all end up abusing and insulting each other.
     
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  10. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
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    You think censoring them all will solve the problem i.e. change their thinking and mentality? Far from it!

    People there, are prejudiced and ignorant. Once we allow them to express their views, we can tackle those views! Censoring is only a temporary solution if it is ever a solution. It is going to make them go to another forum, and exhibit the same behaviour. Forget changing their mentality, do you want those guys to be consored from that forum and come to SPN, and give our admins a headache?!? :D

    EDIT: people who start putting down otehr people, even on SPN... after their post is deleted, don't stop doing it. We need to show the person why doing he/she shouldn't be doing it. Saying that its just a forum rule doesn't help in the long run.
     
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  11. spnadmin

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    Bhagat ji

    Kanwardeep Singh ji has made a profoundly important comment. All real communication and learning stops when a free-for-all breaks out.

    There is no way to stop the "bad mouths" from posting at other forums. If you notice -- the traffic at those other forums (Topix excluded) has diminished and the same people feed each other's lunacy. And the same arguments go round in circles.

    I grant you that here we do not have a huge group posting, but at SPN in the past 2 months or so we have witnessed many fresh voices -- and some of them are refugees from other places. There is no real reason to let things degenerate in the name of "all voices should be heard" . All voices should be heard within the boundaries of civilized speech.

    And some people just want to sling mud and they are not here to learn anything. You know that from your own experience.
     
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  12. Gyani Jarnail Singh

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    Have you ever wondered that almost everyone..i would say about 99.999% of the world's population would claim to be ...holy, good..religious. One can find Nameplates declaring that a DR. MBBS..MD etc stays in a particular house..or works behind the door...a LLB stays here...BUT there wont be a Nameplate saying" a THIEF stays here..or has his office behind this door..or a House that says on its address plate that a Rapist is in residence. A "Thief" will never admit he is a thief...that he steals for a living..and one only knows he is a thief when he gets CAUGHT/sentenced to jail....So my point is....NO ONE..yes literally NO ONE admits he wants/does PAAP (sin/wrong)...BUT there is so much Paap..sin..wrong acts going ON !! A lot more of us would be more than "willing" to do these Paaps..IF there were no such thing as Police/Laws/Jails....its the fear of getting caught/law/police that is the real factor behind a lot of people being law abiding/good citizens ?? i think so. EVERYONE wants to do PUNN..good..BUT still so much Paap/Bad in practise

    MOST if not ALL these vulgar/disrespectful posters post on these Forums becasue they are..UNDERCOVER/ANONYMOUS...imho in REAL LIFE/on their face..not one of them would admit to what they write....they would be so ashamed. Its the ANONYMITY of the Internet that makes such COWARDS attempt to show their TRUE COLOURS...a simple legal threat/notice/police action and they slink off into the wilderness ..never to come out/or IF they do then its under a different ID !! Thats the TRUTH behind these people.
    To me these "low lifes" actually have no real LIFE..no AWARDS//no RESPECT in their real life....no one gives a tuppence to them in real life..so they become computer keyboard/internt warriors/champions.
    Forum Mods have to walk a thin line..balance everything..so there is enough Freedom of Speech to satisfy the normal crowd..and still keep this lunatic fringe behind bars..As they say..YOUR FREEDOM ENDS WHERE MY NOSE BEGINS !! You can have all the freedom to swing your arm..BUT the moment it HITS my NOSE...thats where it all ends..and MY FREEDOM to retaliate BEGINS.
     
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  13. housefull

    housefull
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    I accept with information:
    Gurbani declares..IF one meets a "saint"..then Kichh sunneah..kichh keheayeah Nanak - say something...listen to something...discussion..exchange of ideas...thoughts...
    Read More:: Sikh Philosophy Network
    IF one meets a "cynic"...then its better to keep quiet - even better to avoid him alltogether) The exact word is SAKAT.

    Gurbani also declares..Ros na keejeh..uttar deejeh...DONT be Annoyed/angry (by questioning?/ etc) BUT provide the ANSWERS...( probably in an objective/polite way ) to come to an mutual understanding.

    SACH sunaisee SACH ke BELA...even TRUTH has a Time limit/expiry Date. Truth that has passed its limit/age of expiry...becomes Useless....When Its Time to SPEAK UP..against tyranny, injustices, etc etc..one who Keeps QUIET/shuts up....becomes an accessory to the injustice/tyranny and his TRUTh is useless later. ( Lots of SIKHS were present in the crowd in Chandni Chowk when Guru teg bahadur Ji was executed..BUT NONE dared come forward and proclaim his Sikhi...thier TRUTH was not of much use..later on a SIKH was made so VISIBLE that it became almost impossible to hide SIKHI.

    Some of my thoughts on this matter...we are all SIKHS..and thus always learning...
    It's great!

    __________________
    Watch The Wolfman Online Free

     
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  14. BhagatSingh

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    Cynic: someone who is critical of the motives of others
    Word net


    Ok this cynic thing has come up twice. Why avoid the Cynic??


    What if there are no answer?
    Is a religion allowed to say " I don't know"? I don't think so...:whisling:

    ----------------------
    Hmm... Naraynjot Kaur ji, are you saying one should have freedom of speech as long as its not insulting?
     
  15. Taranjeet singh

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    I am giving below two explanations of the expression Freedom of Speech.

    1.Freedom of speech is the freedom to speak without censorship and/or limitation. The synonymous term freedom of expression is sometimes used to indicate not only freedom of verbal speech but any act of seeking, receiving and imparting information or ideas, regardless of the medium used. In practice, the right to freedom of speech is not absolute in any country and the right is commonly subject to limitations, such as on "hate speech".
    Freedom of speech - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Freedom of speech and Granth sahib

    I hope there is nothing stated in Granth sahib directly that curtails the freedom of speech. But with so many positive answers of the members it can fairly be construed that such freedom is to be exercised with in limits and as to the manner in which the freedom is to be exercised is stated in many Tuks of the Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib.Granth Sahib is a religious book and we shall get the answers to the questions that are related to spirituality that leads us to God. It may not cover the aspect directly. But any intelligent seeker can make out from the Granth sahib, after careful analysis, to find out the extent to which such a liberty is permitted by Guru Sahibaan.
    Let us look at the few lines that say something about the speech.

    1. muhO ik bolxu bolIAY ijqu suix Dry ipAwru ] (2-4, jpu, mÚ 1)

    What words can we speak to evoke His Love?

    2.gwvIAY suxIAY min rKIAY Bwau ] (2-8, jpu, mÚ 1)
    Sing, and listen, and let your mind be filled with love.

    2. Speak that which brings Honor

    bwbw bolIAY piq hoie ] (15-11, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
    O Baba, speak only that which will bring you honor.

    ijqu boilAY piq pweIAY so boilAw prvwxu ] (15-13, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
    Those words are acceptable, which, when spoken, bring honor.

    3.Insipid words


    iPkw boil ivgucxw suix mUrK mn Ajwx ] (15-14, isrIrwgu, mÚ 1)
    Harsh words bring only grief. Listen, O foolish and ignorant mind


    4 Harsh words.

    iPkw bolih nw invih dUjw Bwau suAwau ]1] (426-10, Awsw, mÚ 3)
    They speak harsh words, and do not bow to Him; they are in love with another. ||1||

    ggY goie gwie ijin CofI glI goibdu grib BieAw ] (432-16, Awsw, mÚ 1)
    Gagga: One who renounces the singing of the songs of the Lord of the Universe, becomes arrogant in his speech.

    4. Do not call anyone bad
    mMdw iksY n AwKIAY piV AKru eyho buJIAY ] (473-13, Awsw, mÚ 1)
    Do not call anyone bad; read these words, and understand.

    5.Avoid Insipid words
    nwnk iPkY boilAY qnu mnu iPkw hoie ] (473-14, Awsw, mÚ 1
    O Nanak, speaking insipid words, the body and mind become insipid.

    6.Minds exprerssed by speech

    jo jIie hoie su augvY muh kw kihAw vwau ] (474-11, Awsw, mÚ 2)
    Whatever is in the mind, comes forth; spoken words by themselves are just wind.


    If there is no ban on the freedom of speech in absolute terms there is a restriction placed upon in the manner the word are to be uttered by a sikh.There may not be any direct connection as the above is meant for a devotee i.e. sikh, since we are all sikhs the ban/restrictions contained in the above lines shall seem to apply while exercising the freedom.The last line also expresses that words in themselves are of little significance as these are an expression of our thoughts. Thus the inner thoughts come out through the words. Thus we have to exercise some caution on our thoughts as well. It is by exercising some restraints that we can express through our words and it shall be liked by all. Freedom of speech is thus granted subject to the fulfillment of these conditions and other as prescribed in the Granth sahib.
     
  16. Randip Singh

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    Are we supposed to have a Sikh clergy, and I think Babarbani amply sums up Sikh attitudes to freedom.


    <table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr><td>तिलंग घरु २ महला ५ ॥
    Ŧilang gẖar 2 mėhlā 5.
    Tilang, Second House, Fifth Mehl:

    </td></tr> <tr><td> ਤੁਧੁ ਬਿਨੁ ਦੂਜਾ ਨਾਹੀ ਕੋਇ
    तुधु बिनु दूजा नाही कोइ ॥
    Ŧuḏẖ bin ḏūjā nāhī ko▫e.
    There is no other than You, Lord.

    </td></tr> <tr><td> ਤੂ ਕਰਤਾਰੁ ਕਰਹਿ ਸੋ ਹੋਇ
    तू करतारु करहि सो होइ ॥
    Ŧū karṯār karahi so ho▫e.
    You are the Creator; whatever You do, that alone happens.

    </td></tr> <tr><td> ਤੇਰਾ ਜੋਰੁ ਤੇਰੀ ਮਨਿ ਟੇਕ
    तेरा जोरु तेरी मनि टेक ॥
    Ŧerā jor ṯerī man tek.
    You are the strength, and You are the support of the mind.

    </td></tr> <tr><td> ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਜਪਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਏਕ ॥੧॥
    सदा सदा जपि नानक एक ॥१॥
    Saḏā saḏā jap Nānak ek. ||1||
    Forever and ever, meditate, O Nanak, on the One. ||1||

    </td></tr> <tr><td> ਸਭ ਊਪਰਿ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਦਾਤਾਰੁ
    सभ ऊपरि पारब्रहमु दातारु ॥
    Sabẖ ūpar pārbarahm ḏāṯār.
    The Great Giver is the Supreme Lord God over all.

    </td></tr> <tr><td> ਤੇਰੀ ਟੇਕ ਤੇਰਾ ਆਧਾਰੁ ਰਹਾਉ
    तेरी टेक तेरा आधारु ॥ रहाउ ॥
    Ŧerī tek ṯerā āḏẖār. Rahā▫o.
    You are our support, You are our sustainer. ||Pause|| </td></tr></tbody></table>
    <table cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr><td>ਖੂਨ ਕੇ ਸੋਹਿਲੇ ਗਾਵੀਅਹਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਰਤੁ ਕਾ ਕੁੰਗੂ ਪਾਇ ਵੇ ਲਾਲੋ ॥੧॥
    खून के सोहिले गावीअहि नानक रतु का कुंगू पाइ वे लालो ॥१॥
    Kẖūn ke sohile gavī▫ah Nānak raṯ kā kungū pā▫e ve lālo. ||1||
    The wedding songs of murder are sung, O Nanak, and blood is sprinkled instead of saffron, O Lalo. ||1||

    </td></tr> <tr><td> ਸਾਹਿਬ ਕੇ ਗੁਣ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਗਾਵੈ ਮਾਸ ਪੁਰੀ ਵਿਚਿ ਆਖੁ ਮਸੋਲਾ
    साहिब के गुण नानकु गावै मास पुरी विचि आखु मसोला ॥
    Sāhib ke guṇ Nānak gāvai mās purī vicẖ ākẖ masolā.
    Nanak sings the Glorious Praises of the Lord and Master in the city of corpses, and voices this account.

    </td></tr> <tr><td> ਜਿਨਿ ਉਪਾਈ ਰੰਗਿ ਰਵਾਈ ਬੈਠਾ ਵੇਖੈ ਵਖਿ ਇਕੇਲਾ
    जिनि उपाई रंगि रवाई बैठा वेखै वखि इकेला ॥
    Jin upā▫ī rang ravā▫ī baiṯẖā vekẖai vakẖ ikelā.
    The One who created, and attached the mortals to pleasures, sits alone, and watches this.

    </td></tr> <tr><td> ਸਚਾ ਸੋ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਚੁ ਤਪਾਵਸੁ ਸਚੜਾ ਨਿਆਉ ਕਰੇਗੁ ਮਸੋਲਾ
    सचा सो साहिबु सचु तपावसु सचड़ा निआउ करेगु मसोला ॥
    Sacẖā so sāhib sacẖ ṯapāvas sacẖṛā ni▫ā▫o kareg masolā.
    The Lord and Master is True, and True is His justice. He issues His Commands according to His judgment.

    </td></tr> <tr><td> ਕਾਇਆ ਕਪੜੁ ਟੁਕੁ ਟੁਕੁ ਹੋਸੀ ਹਿਦੁਸਤਾਨੁ ਸਮਾਲਸੀ ਬੋਲਾ
    काइआ कपड़ु टुकु टुकु होसी हिदुसतानु समालसी बोला ॥
    Kā▫i▫ā kapaṛ tuk tuk hosī hinḏusaṯān samālsī bolā.
    The body-fabric will be torn apart into shreds, and then India will remember these words.

    </td></tr> <tr><td> ਆਵਨਿ ਅਠਤਰੈ ਜਾਨਿ ਸਤਾਨਵੈ ਹੋਰੁ ਭੀ ਉਠਸੀ ਮਰਦ ਕਾ ਚੇਲਾ
    आवनि अठतरै जानि सतानवै होरु भी उठसी मरद का चेला ॥
    Āvan aṯẖ▫ṯarai jān saṯānvai hor bẖī uṯẖsī maraḏ kā cẖelā.
    Coming in seventy-eight (1521 A.D.), they will depart in ninety-seven (1540 A.D.), and then another disciple of man will rise up.

    </td></tr> <tr><td> ਸਚ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਆਖੈ ਸਚੁ ਸੁਣਾਇਸੀ ਸਚ ਕੀ ਬੇਲਾ ॥੨॥੩॥੫॥
    सच की बाणी नानकु आखै सचु सुणाइसी सच की बेला ॥२॥३॥५॥
    Sacẖ kī baṇī Nānak ākẖai sacẖ suṇā▫isī sacẖ kī belā. ||2||3||5||
    Nanak speaks the Word of Truth; he proclaims the Truth at this, the right time. ||2||3||5|| </td></tr></tbody></table>
     
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  17. spnadmin

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    Hmm... Naraynjot Kaur ji, are you saying one should have freedom of speech as long as its not insulting? (Bhagat Singh ji)

    no
     
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