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Hinduism Vaishnava dharma and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by Ishna, Aug 8, 2015.

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  1. Ishna

    Ishna
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    Have you ever noticed that the Hindu bhagats who's shabads are included in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji where all Vaishnavites?
     
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  3. Seeker2013

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    Yes , infact a naive person or even a hindu devotee who ever reads certain portions of SGGS would feel at home, because SGGS mentions all names familiar to Vaishnavs - Damodar, Deen dayal, Narayan , Kamal nayan, Sri dhar, etc are all names for waheguru (brahm) in sikhism but for Vishnu ji in hinduism.

    Infact, prem bhagti of vaishnavs TBH is very similar to that found in sikhi.
     
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  4. Seeker2013

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    Watch the story of bhagat prahlad , who kept steadfast faith in god , and god (as always) saves his devotees. Prahlad loved god and god loved him back so much that god asked vishnu to take avatar of NarSingha to slay his demonic father
    its very inspiring story , very similar to that of Bibi Rajni


    God many not answer your prayers always , God may not save you always but if you keep faith in god, he never lets you down. Atleast thats my experience. And when god makes you his own, he doesn't consider your merits or demerits before blessing you.
    So much important is faith in god that Guru Nanak dev ji has composed 4 stanzas in Jap Ji sahib just to express the miracles of having complete faith in god . I am talking about the 4 stanzas that start with "manne"

    Manne ki gat kahi na jae , je ko kahe pichhe pachhtaye ....

    Faith in god and prema bhagti is quite rare thesedays. You see even people on this forum will chide you for it . But he never lets down . He is 'bhagat vachhal' (care taker of his devotees)
     
  5. Harry Haller

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    do you want to tell that to the 1984 survivors or shall I? maybe they were praying to the wrong god?

    again, the young woman gang raped a while back in India, I wonder if she feels let down?

    is that not a bit short sighted? is that why those that propagate evil seem to do well?

    This would not be the same Guru Nanak that stood against deity worship?

    and one of those would be me, although I have never chided anyone for faith, however, if you are going to make these dramatic faith ridden statements, then be prepared to back them up, because I for one, am getting slightly fed up with statements that make no sense whatsoever. How can you describe god as caretaker of his devotees when Sikhs have faced some of the most violent and disturbing deaths over the years, are Sikhs not devotes? Can you please explain this statement? if you cannot explain it, or cannot back it up, then cease.
     
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  6. Seeker2013

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    I have not said anything about 1984 genocide here.
    Did the 1984 martyrs and survivors whine about god not being on their side ? SGGS for one agrees with what has been said . God protects his devotees , but sometimes its his play that all the ghalu ghara (genocide) happens.

    Thats why in jaap sahib , Guru Gobind Singh ji says
    "Namo Kroor karme" (salutations to the one (god) who does evil deeds)

    Anyways, you have your own "DIY sikhi" flavor. So why bother ? If you're not even going to agree with what bani says, then what can I say?
    Guru Sahib has again and again emphasized that without faith in god and without love of god, there's no point in believing in him ! but you have a DIY mentality . I see too much of atheistic vibes in almost all your post (No offense) . But then again, whatever floats your boat.

    PS: Please read Sri Guru Granth sahib ji sometimes :)
     
  7. Harry Haller

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    good, we are progressing, so now we concede that god protects his devotees, but sometimes it is wish that genocide happens, many thanks for the clarification, so can we now also concede that god does not always protect his devotees? pretty please?

    I see, so Ikonkar does evil deeds, wonderful, kindly educate me as to why the word truth is then so lauded in Sikhism, or would you say being evil is also being truthful? Is Ikonkar like the Christian god that smites people and gets angry and jealous?



    you can backup what you write, sorry is that asking too much from you? from anyone?

    but thank you for your answer, just to clarify, the answer to the question


    How can you describe god as caretaker of his devotees when Sikhs have faced some of the most violent and disturbing deaths over the years, are Sikhs not devotes? Can you please explain this statement? if you cannot explain it, or cannot back it up, then cease.

    is that god is also evil, is this your belief that god carries out evil acts?
     
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  8. Ishna

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    My theory is that bania by Vaishnavites is included in SGGS due to their close association with bhakti (bhagti). Sikhi has roots in the bhakti movement, so it makes sense that the for-bearers of the tradition would have something to say in Gurbani.

    But does it also suggest anything about Sikh cosmology and thoughts on the nature of the divine?
     
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  9. Ishna

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    Ever notice how often you come across Hari(i) and Raam in Gurbani, and realise they are used to refer to Vishnu (outside of Gurbani)?
     
  10. Seeker2013

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    actually yes , infact my mom (my both parents are sikh) often refers to vegetarian diet as "vaishnu" and me as "vaishnu" too :p as I am a vegetarian.
    Kamal nayanam is one of the names of vishnu in vishnu sahasranama( 1000 names of vishnu) ,
    Laksmi kantam too (meaning husband of laxmi) and both of these names are found in gurbani too .

    but I tell you Gurbani is very clear that brahma , vishnu and shiv ji are not parbrahm , they are more like obedient ministers to parbrahm aka allah aka waheguru .
    worshipping vishnu is like worshipping home minister when infact u wish to worship prime minister (aka waheguru)

    Infact gurbani even says that brahma, vishnu and shiv ji are under maya's control too.

    But I get ur point . I sometimes find it disturbing TBH that so many names for waheguru inside sikhi are infact referring to vishnu once u step outside sikh point of view.

    Are u suggesting that there is a sliver of possibility that gurbani is infact referring to vishnu when it mentions 'hari' (found multiple times on almost ang of SGGS) , 'narayan' , etc
     
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    #9 Seeker2013, Aug 18, 2015
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  11. Seeker2013

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    actually in hindu texts themselves, it talks of ultimate reality as "brahman" (not to be confused with brahmin or brahma, the hindu god of creation)
    This brahman is nothing but waheguru / allah / god

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahman

    REST EVERYTHING is temporary trash !
     
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    #10 Seeker2013, Aug 18, 2015
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  12. Ishna

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    From what I understand, Vaishnavas view Vishnu as synonomous with Brahman - or the One Supreme God.

    They are also very involved with bhakti, the path of pure devotion, which Sikhi is also very involved with.

    For me, the real distinguishing part between Sikhi and Vaishnava Dharma is the Gurbani says that Ik Onkar does not incarnate - is ajooni.
     
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  13. BhagatSingh

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    The way you can find out who Hari and Ram are, is by reading the stories that are mentioned in Guru Granth Sahib. Remember these are the central characters who are always being talked about in Guru Granth Sahib. So if you can understand these characters you can grasp the theology, spirituality and methods of practice in Guru Granth Sahib pretty well.

    Who are the characters in the stories?
    Here are the famous ones -
    Prehlaad ਪ੍ਰਹਲਾਦ
    Dhruv ਧ੍ਰੂ
    Ajamal ਅਜਾਮਲ
    Sudama ਸੁਦਾਮਾ
    Ahilya ਅਹਲਿਆ
    Dropadi ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ
    Narad ਨਾਰਦ
    Ganika ਗਨਿਕਾ
    Gaj ਗਜ
    Bidar ਬਿਦਰ
    etc

    (understand the narrative, ask -) Who are these people?

    (understand the theology, ask -) Who are they praying to?

    (to understand spiritual practice, ask -) How are they praying?


    Try to see why Guru Arjun Dev ji is called Ajooni by sikhs in Gurbani.

    Ajooni means transcends joons ie not being limited to a joon.

    You can definitely incarnate and be ajooni at the same time.

    In Guru Granth Sahib He definitely incarnates. One of His names is Narhar ਨਰਹਰ.

    Nar-man, Har- God


    This is only true when they are mentioned in one breath. Ie Brahma Bishan Mahesh, together.

    When they are mentioned together, they are not referring to Brahma, Bishan or Mahesh, individually...

    Rather it is referring to a collection of qualities of Brahma-Bishan-Mahesh.

    It is then referring to their oft-emphasized features (oft-mentioned in their particular religions that is) - Creator-Preserver-Destroyer, the three qualities.

    So the phrase Brahma-Bishan-Mahesh means Creation-Preservation-Destruction. It is not referring to the individuals.

    The creation-preservation-destruction of the world is under the influence of Maya.

    But the Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva in their totality are not under the influence of Maya.

    Outside of the collective phrase Brahma-Bishan-Mahesh,
    The word Bishan is referring to all qualities of Creator-Preserver-Destroyer, He is the supreme consciousness, Parmatma. He creates Maya, the world.

    Bishan ki maya te hoe bhin
    ਬਿਸਨ ਕੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਤੇ ਹੋਇ ਭਿੰਨ ॥
     
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  14. Ishna

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    Thank you Bhagat Singh Ji. If all that is the case, how then is Sikhi different to Vaishnava Dharma (broadly speaking, as there are multiple schools within Vaishnava Dharma)? Why is it not just another school of Vaishnavism?
     
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  15. Harry Haller

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    The question is quite simple, given the wikki entries for Brahma as kindly supplied by Seekerji, it is quite clear that the Creator as described in Sikhi, bears quite a close resemblance, going as far as being described as the ultimate truth.

    So if Guru Nanakji did interact with the ultimate truth, why would he then start a religion/way of life that was almost exactly the same as Hinduism? There are those that say to get a grounding in Sikhism, one must first study Hinduism....

    The only conclusion I can come to is that Sikhism adopted a more pragmatic approach to connection with the supreme truth, rejected karma, and focused on consonance with the Universe during the one and only life that we are given.

    Sikhism as we know it today is most definitely another school of Vaishnavism, whether it was every supposed to be, is another matter.
     
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  16. chazSingh

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    i don;t think you need to say it is another school of anything...

    do you think God cares what we call the Truth...whether we call it hinduism...sikhism...or islam...

    He just cares about what is the truth and what is false. and elements of the truth exists in all so called named religions.

    the problem is the followers making rituals out of everything...no attempt to experience the truth...just to pay obediance to what they think is the truth for some material or other gain...or arguing about which religion is the best...and the true flavor is lost.

    humans need to be retold things...we need our ego's slapping from time to time....pulled back onto the correct path....
    as truth seekers (sikhs) we don;t want to experience only aspects of the truth...a sikh wants to know the complete truth, and know how to experience it...in this present moment...

    and that's what Sri Guru Nanak dev ji came to make perfectly clear for us...no messing around...this is it! He said... :)
     
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  17. chazSingh

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    how do you know that God doesn't protect his devotee's...?

    we think Death is it...if we die...we have had the worst luck in the universe...its all over...we're so attached to our bodies...our physical existence.

    Guru Ji's showed us physcial Death is not death of consciousness...

    Sat on a hot plate, Guru ji didn't beg for His life...He saw, and was part of the bigger picture...

    All is in His Hukam...His devotees are always protected and saved...what that means only waheguru and the subject invloved knows..the rest of us will see a dead body and wonder why God would do such a thing...
     
  18. Seeker2013

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    Woah ! what do you mean ? that we're vishnu worshippers ?
    Gurbani is clear - Brahma , vishnu and shiva are created by brahman and are rather different aspects of brahman, and since each of them are different aspect of brahman, neithr of them is complete by itself , and therfore can't be god themselves .

    "Kaal pae brahma bap dhara, Kal pae siv joo avtara, kaal pae kar bisan prakasa , sakal kaal ka kia tamasa."
    (when time came brahma was created, then shiva and then vishnu , its all a play of time ) - Guru Gobind Singh

    Besides if we really were vishnu worshippers , guru gobind singh ji would have specifically asked us to wear tilak . I don't knw of any vaishnavite school that hasn't accepted tilak .
     
  19. Seeker2013

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    If you look at hindu iconography, they themselves give a message .
    Brahma has 4 heads , indicating omnipresence of creative power of god and he sits on a lotus , indicating the expanding creation (universe expanding) as a lotus expands on blossoming.
    Vishnu , the preserver, is reclining (body spread out ) on a multi-hooded snake . The reclining (spread-out) pose means god is spread throughout his creation and even the multi-hooded snakes of maya serve him !
    and then ofcourse wealth and fame (lakshmi) serve his feet .
    And then you have shiva , he is never reclining, he sits in a condensed manner with folder legs , indicating the compression nature of universe as it comes to end ("big crunch") . Gurbani accepts universe is cyclic .

    "kai baar pasreo pasaar, sada sada ek ekankar" (many times, the expanse was expanded , but always by the one god)

    Besides , lets assume for a minute , that hari and narayan do infact refer to vishnu in SGGS , but u think our community today will accept that ? when we have a threat of RSS far-right hindutva elements out there wanting to ruin our identity and absorb us into hinduism ?

    And if at all u have a right-wing hindu fanatic yelling "you sikhs are hindu, your SGGS mentions worship of vishnu, et al" , just say "So what? why can't you tolerate religious diversity of indian subcontinent ? why you want all dharmic religions lumped inside hinduism? WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM?"
     
  20. Seeker2013

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    the right-wing fanatics of hindutva often say gurbani worships raam and mentions it several time.
    Nope, there's a difference between "raam" and "ramchandra"
    You see "raam" is god , "raam chandra" means "moon of god" .
    Its like saying moon is the earth ! it isn't

    moon revolves around earth. So "ram chandra" ideally would be a person whose life would revolve around worship of 'ram' .
    Many people don't notice this subtle difference . same for "harish chandra"
     
  21. Harry Haller

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    yup

    well if its that clear, could you possibly see your way to a page number or a quote?

    quoted from where please thank you

    this may come as a surprise or shock but there is a little more to being a Hindu then wearing a tilak

    too late, mainstream Sikhism is fully absorbed into Hinduism, forget hari and narayan, Sikhs have our own deities now, Sikhs practice deity worship daily, engage in pointless ritual daily, you yourself treat the SGGS as a sort of Moores Almanac, others have astrology readings, we have our Hukamnama, it is all treated the same, the blasphemy that occurs within Sikhism means that instead of free thinking, learning individuals, we have descended into slavery to ritual, tradition, forget the RSS , the real enemy is within.
    I think all dharmic religions should be lumped inside Hinduism, makes sense to me, at this point you the have to ask yourself if you consider Sikhism a dharmic religion.
    Is Sikhism an offshoot of HInduism?, is it something new in its own right? let us not skirt around here, if Sikhism and Hinduism have that much in common that it is considered relevant to study Hindu dharma to get a better idea of Sikhism, why not just follow Hinduism?
     
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