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Hard Talk
Understanding AGGS :Incoherent Lines
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<blockquote data-quote="spnadmin" data-source="post: 103576" data-attributes="member: 35"><p>Virinder ji</p><p></p><p>A couple of concerns about your above post. </p><p></p><p>If you are asking a question or looking for clarifications of either Mahan Kosh or Gurbani, then please revise your comments so that it is clear that you are asking for information and clarification.</p><p></p><p>Otherwise the connections between the Mahan Kosh definitions and The Gurbani you have cited are not clear at all.</p><p></p><p>Let me give you my own take: Guru Granth is never incoherent or contradictory. When it appears that way it is the result of our own limitations. Systematic reading and reading of the parts where WE are confused often leads to clear understanding in time. Also it helps to consult with knowledgeable people.</p><p></p><p>Now my question for you - Please, by posting the entire shabads and giving your own explanation, explain where in Sri Guru Granth Sahib -- or specifically in Sriraag, Guruji says that " there is no difference between a spiritually enlightened person and God?"</p><p></p><p>I checked the first citation you gave from Ang 59 line 7 -- Where does it say anything about a spiritually enlightened person is no different from God? I can't find it. It could be because I am myself a moorath. Here it is, </p><p></p><p>sireeraag mehalaa 1 ||</p><p>Siree Raag, First Mehl:</p><p><span style="color: red"></span></p><p> <span style="color: red"></span> ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਜੇ ਮਿਲੈ ਪਾਈਐ ਰਤਨੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ </p><p>sathigur pooraa jae milai paaeeai rathan beechaar ||</p><p>Meeting the Perfect True Guru, we find the jewel of meditative reflection.</p><p><span style="color: red"></span></p><p><span style="color: red"></span> ਮਨੁ ਦੀਜੈ ਗੁਰ ਆਪਣੇ ਪਾਈਐ ਸਰਬ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥ </p><p>man dheejai gur aapanae paaeeai sarab piaar ||</p><p>Surrendering our minds to our Guru, we find universal love.</p><p><span style="color: red"></span></p><p><span style="color: red"></span> ਮੁਕਤਿ ਪਦਾਰਥੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਅਵਗਣ ਮੇਟਣਹਾਰੁ ॥੧॥ </p><p>mukath padhaarathh paaeeai avagan maettanehaar ||1||</p><p>We find the wealth of liberation, and our demerits are erased. ||1||</p><p><span style="color: red"></span></p><p><span style="color: red"></span> ਭਾਈ ਰੇ ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥ </p><p>bhaaee rae gur bin giaan n hoe ||</p><p>O Siblings of Destiny, without the Guru, there is no spiritual wisdom.</p><p><span style="color: red"></span></p><p><span style="color: red"></span> ਪੂਛਹੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੇ ਨਾਰਦੈ ਬੇਦ ਬਿਆਸੈ ਕੋਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ </p><p>pooshhahu brehamae naaradhai baedh biaasai koe ||1|| rehaao ||</p><p>Go and ask Brahma, Naarad and Vyaas, the writer of the Vedas. ||1||Pause||</p><p><span style="color: red"></span></p><p><span style="color: red"></span> ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਧੁਨਿ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਅਕਥੁ ਕਹਾਵੈ ਸੋਇ ॥ </p><p>giaan dhhiaan dhhun jaaneeai akathh kehaavai soe ||</p><p>Know that from the vibration of the Word, we obtain spiritual wisdom and meditation. Through it, we speak the Unspoken.</p><p><span style="color: red"></span></p><p><span style="color: red"></span> ਸਫਲਿਓ ਬਿਰਖੁ ਹਰੀਆਵਲਾ ਛਾਵ ਘਣੇਰੀ ਹੋਇ ॥ </p><p>safaliou birakh hareeaavalaa shhaav ghanaeree hoe ||</p><p>He is the fruit-bearing Tree, luxuriantly green with abundant shade.</p><p><span style="color: red"></span></p><p><span style="color: red"></span> ਲਾਲ ਜਵੇਹਰ ਮਾਣਕੀ ਗੁਰ ਭੰਡਾਰੈ ਸੋਇ ॥੨॥ </p><p>laal javaehar maanakee gur bhanddaarai soe ||2||</p><p>The rubies, jewels and emeralds are in the Guru's Treasury. ||2||</p><p><span style="color: red"></span></p><p><span style="color: red"></span> ਗੁਰ ਭੰਡਾਰੈ ਪਾਈਐ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਨਾਮ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥ </p><p>gur bhanddaarai paaeeai niramal naam piaar ||</p><p>From the Guru's Treasury, we receive the Love of the Immaculate Naam, the Name of the Lord.</p><p><span style="color: red"></span></p><p><span style="color: red"></span> ਸਾਚੋ ਵਖਰੁ ਸੰਚੀਐ ਪੂਰੈ ਕਰਮਿ ਅਪਾਰੁ ॥ </p><p>saacho vakhar sancheeai poorai karam apaar ||</p><p>We gather in the True Merchandise, through the Perfect Grace of the Infinite.</p><p><span style="color: red"> </span></p><p><span style="color: red"></span></p><p><span style="color: red"></span> ਸੁਖਦਾਤਾ ਦੁਖ ਮੇਟਣੋ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਅਸੁਰ ਸੰਘਾਰੁ ॥੩॥ </p><p>sukhadhaathaa dhukh maettano sathigur asur sanghaar ||3||</p><p>The True Guru is the Giver of peace, the Dispeller of pain, the Destroyer of demons. ||3||</p><p><span style="color: red"></span></p><p><span style="color: red"></span> ਭਵਜਲੁ ਬਿਖਮੁ ਡਰਾਵਣੋ ਨਾ ਕੰਧੀ ਨਾ ਪਾਰੁ ॥ </p><p>bhavajal bikham ddaraavano naa kandhhee naa paar ||</p><p>The terrifying world-ocean is difficult and dreadful; there is no shore on this side or the one beyond.</p><p><span style="color: red"></span></p><p><span style="color: red"></span> ਨਾ ਬੇੜੀ ਨਾ ਤੁਲਹੜਾ ਨਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਵੰਝੁ ਮਲਾਰੁ ॥ </p><p>naa baerree naa thuleharraa naa this vanjh malaar ||</p><p>There is no boat, no raft, no oars and no boatman.</p><p> </p><p>ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਭੈ ਕਾ ਬੋਹਿਥਾ ਨਦਰੀ ਪਾਰਿ ਉਤਾਰੁ ॥੪॥ </p><p>sathigur bhai kaa bohithhaa nadharee paar outhaar ||4||</p><p>The True Guru is the only boat on this terrifying ocean. His Glance of Grace carries us across. ||4||</p><p> ਇਕੁ ਤਿਲੁ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਦੁਖੁ ਲਾਗੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਜਾਇ ॥ </p><p>eik thil piaaraa visarai dhukh laagai sukh jaae ||</p><p>If I forget my Beloved, even for an instant, suffering overtakes me and peace departs.</p><p><span style="color: red"></span></p><p><span style="color: red"></span> ਜਿਹਵਾ ਜਲਉ ਜਲਾਵਣੀ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਜਪੈ ਰਸਾਇ ॥ </p><p>jihavaa jalo jalaavanee naam n japai rasaae ||</p><p>Let that tongue be burnt in flames, which does not chant the Naam with love.</p><p><span style="color: red"></span></p><p><span style="color: red"></span> ਘਟੁ ਬਿਨਸੈ ਦੁਖੁ ਅਗਲੋ ਜਮੁ ਪਕੜੈ ਪਛੁਤਾਇ ॥੫॥ </p><p>ghatt binasai dhukh agalo jam pakarrai pashhuthaae ||5||</p><p>When the pitcher of the body bursts, there is terrible pain; those who are caught by the Minister of Death regret and repent. ||5||</p><p><span style="color: red"></span></p><p><span style="color: red"></span> ਮੇਰੀ ਮੇਰੀ ਕਰਿ ਗਏ ਤਨੁ ਧਨੁ ਕਲਤੁ ਨ ਸਾਥਿ ॥ </p><p>maeree maeree kar geae than dhhan kalath n saathh ||</p><p>Crying out, ""Mine! Mine!"", they have departed, but their bodies, their wealth, and their wives did not go with them.</p><p><span style="color: red"></span></p><p><span style="color: red"></span> ਬਿਨੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਧਨੁ ਬਾਦਿ ਹੈ ਭੂਲੋ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਆਥਿ ॥ </p><p>bin naavai dhhan baadh hai bhoolo maarag aathh ||</p><p>Without the Name, wealth is useless; deceived by wealth, they have lost their way.</p><p><span style="color: red"></span></p><p><span style="color: red"></span> ਸਾਚਉ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸੇਵੀਐ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਅਕਥੋ ਕਾਥਿ ॥੬॥ </p><p>saacho saahib saeveeai guramukh akathho kaathh ||6||</p><p>So serve the True Lord; become Gurmukh, and speak the Unspoken. ||6||</p><p><span style="color: red"></span></p><p><span style="color: red"></span> ਆਵੈ ਜਾਇ ਭਵਾਈਐ ਪਇਐ ਕਿਰਤਿ ਕਮਾਇ ॥ </p><p>aavai jaae bhavaaeeai paeiai kirath kamaae ||</p><p>Coming and going, people wander through reincarnation; they act according to their past actions.</p><p><span style="color: red"></span></p><p><span style="color: red"></span> ਪੂਰਬਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਕਿਉ ਮੇਟੀਐ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਲੇਖੁ ਰਜਾਇ ॥ </p><p>poorab likhiaa kio maetteeai likhiaa laekh rajaae ||</p><p>How can one's pre-ordained destiny be erased? It is written in accordance with the Lord's Will.</p><p><span style="color: red"></span></p><p><span style="color: red"></span> ਬਿਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਨ ਛੁਟੀਐ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਮਿਲਾਇ ॥੭॥ </p><p>bin har naam n shhutteeai guramath milai milaae ||7||</p><p>Without the Name of the Lord, no one can be saved. Through the Guru's Teachings, we are united in His Union. ||7||</p><p><span style="color: red"> </span></p><p><span style="color: red"></span></p><p><span style="color: red"></span> ਤਿਸੁ ਬਿਨੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਕੋ ਨਹੀ ਜਿਸ ਕਾ ਜੀਉ ਪਰਾਨੁ ॥ </p><p>this bin maeraa ko nehee jis kaa jeeo paraan ||</p><p>Without Him, I have no one to call my own. My soul and my breath of life belong to Him.</p><p><span style="color: red"></span></p><p><span style="color: red"></span> ਹਉਮੈ ਮਮਤਾ ਜਲਿ ਬਲਉ ਲੋਭੁ ਜਲਉ ਅਭਿਮਾਨੁ ॥ </p><p>houmai mamathaa jal balo lobh jalo abhimaan ||</p><p>May my egotism and possessiveness be burnt to ashes, and my greed and egotistical pride consigned to the fire.</p><p><span style="color: red"> </span></p><p><span style="color: red"></span></p><p> <span style="color: red"></span>ਨਾਨਕ ਸਬਦੁ ਵੀਚਾਰੀਐ ਪਾਈਐ ਗੁਣੀ ਨਿਧਾਨੁ ॥੮॥੧੦॥ </p><p>naanak sabadh veechaareeai paaeeai gunee nidhhaan ||8||10||</p><p>O Nanak, contemplating the Shabad, the Treasure of Excellence is obtained. ||8||10||</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="spnadmin, post: 103576, member: 35"] Virinder ji A couple of concerns about your above post. If you are asking a question or looking for clarifications of either Mahan Kosh or Gurbani, then please revise your comments so that it is clear that you are asking for information and clarification. Otherwise the connections between the Mahan Kosh definitions and The Gurbani you have cited are not clear at all. Let me give you my own take: Guru Granth is never incoherent or contradictory. When it appears that way it is the result of our own limitations. Systematic reading and reading of the parts where WE are confused often leads to clear understanding in time. Also it helps to consult with knowledgeable people. Now my question for you - Please, by posting the entire shabads and giving your own explanation, explain where in Sri Guru Granth Sahib -- or specifically in Sriraag, Guruji says that " there is no difference between a spiritually enlightened person and God?" I checked the first citation you gave from Ang 59 line 7 -- Where does it say anything about a spiritually enlightened person is no different from God? I can't find it. It could be because I am myself a moorath. Here it is, sireeraag mehalaa 1 || Siree Raag, First Mehl: [COLOR=red] [/COLOR] ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਜੇ ਮਿਲੈ ਪਾਈਐ ਰਤਨੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ sathigur pooraa jae milai paaeeai rathan beechaar || Meeting the Perfect True Guru, we find the jewel of meditative reflection. [COLOR=red] [/COLOR] ਮਨੁ ਦੀਜੈ ਗੁਰ ਆਪਣੇ ਪਾਈਐ ਸਰਬ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥ man dheejai gur aapanae paaeeai sarab piaar || Surrendering our minds to our Guru, we find universal love. [COLOR=red] [/COLOR] ਮੁਕਤਿ ਪਦਾਰਥੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਅਵਗਣ ਮੇਟਣਹਾਰੁ ॥੧॥ mukath padhaarathh paaeeai avagan maettanehaar ||1|| We find the wealth of liberation, and our demerits are erased. ||1|| [COLOR=red] [/COLOR] ਭਾਈ ਰੇ ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥ bhaaee rae gur bin giaan n hoe || O Siblings of Destiny, without the Guru, there is no spiritual wisdom. [COLOR=red] [/COLOR] ਪੂਛਹੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੇ ਨਾਰਦੈ ਬੇਦ ਬਿਆਸੈ ਕੋਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ pooshhahu brehamae naaradhai baedh biaasai koe ||1|| rehaao || Go and ask Brahma, Naarad and Vyaas, the writer of the Vedas. ||1||Pause|| [COLOR=red] [/COLOR] ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਧੁਨਿ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਅਕਥੁ ਕਹਾਵੈ ਸੋਇ ॥ giaan dhhiaan dhhun jaaneeai akathh kehaavai soe || Know that from the vibration of the Word, we obtain spiritual wisdom and meditation. Through it, we speak the Unspoken. [COLOR=red] [/COLOR] ਸਫਲਿਓ ਬਿਰਖੁ ਹਰੀਆਵਲਾ ਛਾਵ ਘਣੇਰੀ ਹੋਇ ॥ safaliou birakh hareeaavalaa shhaav ghanaeree hoe || He is the fruit-bearing Tree, luxuriantly green with abundant shade. [COLOR=red] [/COLOR] ਲਾਲ ਜਵੇਹਰ ਮਾਣਕੀ ਗੁਰ ਭੰਡਾਰੈ ਸੋਇ ॥੨॥ laal javaehar maanakee gur bhanddaarai soe ||2|| The rubies, jewels and emeralds are in the Guru's Treasury. ||2|| [COLOR=red] [/COLOR] ਗੁਰ ਭੰਡਾਰੈ ਪਾਈਐ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਨਾਮ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥ gur bhanddaarai paaeeai niramal naam piaar || From the Guru's Treasury, we receive the Love of the Immaculate Naam, the Name of the Lord. [COLOR=red] [/COLOR] ਸਾਚੋ ਵਖਰੁ ਸੰਚੀਐ ਪੂਰੈ ਕਰਮਿ ਅਪਾਰੁ ॥ saacho vakhar sancheeai poorai karam apaar || We gather in the True Merchandise, through the Perfect Grace of the Infinite. [COLOR=red] [/COLOR] ਸੁਖਦਾਤਾ ਦੁਖ ਮੇਟਣੋ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਅਸੁਰ ਸੰਘਾਰੁ ॥੩॥ sukhadhaathaa dhukh maettano sathigur asur sanghaar ||3|| The True Guru is the Giver of peace, the Dispeller of pain, the Destroyer of demons. ||3|| [COLOR=red] [/COLOR] ਭਵਜਲੁ ਬਿਖਮੁ ਡਰਾਵਣੋ ਨਾ ਕੰਧੀ ਨਾ ਪਾਰੁ ॥ bhavajal bikham ddaraavano naa kandhhee naa paar || The terrifying world-ocean is difficult and dreadful; there is no shore on this side or the one beyond. [COLOR=red] [/COLOR] ਨਾ ਬੇੜੀ ਨਾ ਤੁਲਹੜਾ ਨਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਵੰਝੁ ਮਲਾਰੁ ॥ naa baerree naa thuleharraa naa this vanjh malaar || There is no boat, no raft, no oars and no boatman. ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਭੈ ਕਾ ਬੋਹਿਥਾ ਨਦਰੀ ਪਾਰਿ ਉਤਾਰੁ ॥੪॥ sathigur bhai kaa bohithhaa nadharee paar outhaar ||4|| The True Guru is the only boat on this terrifying ocean. His Glance of Grace carries us across. ||4|| [COLOR=red] [/COLOR]ਇਕੁ ਤਿਲੁ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਦੁਖੁ ਲਾਗੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਜਾਇ ॥ eik thil piaaraa visarai dhukh laagai sukh jaae || If I forget my Beloved, even for an instant, suffering overtakes me and peace departs. [COLOR=red] [/COLOR] ਜਿਹਵਾ ਜਲਉ ਜਲਾਵਣੀ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਜਪੈ ਰਸਾਇ ॥ jihavaa jalo jalaavanee naam n japai rasaae || Let that tongue be burnt in flames, which does not chant the Naam with love. [COLOR=red] [/COLOR] ਘਟੁ ਬਿਨਸੈ ਦੁਖੁ ਅਗਲੋ ਜਮੁ ਪਕੜੈ ਪਛੁਤਾਇ ॥੫॥ ghatt binasai dhukh agalo jam pakarrai pashhuthaae ||5|| When the pitcher of the body bursts, there is terrible pain; those who are caught by the Minister of Death regret and repent. ||5|| [COLOR=red] [/COLOR] ਮੇਰੀ ਮੇਰੀ ਕਰਿ ਗਏ ਤਨੁ ਧਨੁ ਕਲਤੁ ਨ ਸਾਥਿ ॥ maeree maeree kar geae than dhhan kalath n saathh || Crying out, ""Mine! Mine!"", they have departed, but their bodies, their wealth, and their wives did not go with them. [COLOR=red] [/COLOR] ਬਿਨੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਧਨੁ ਬਾਦਿ ਹੈ ਭੂਲੋ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਆਥਿ ॥ bin naavai dhhan baadh hai bhoolo maarag aathh || Without the Name, wealth is useless; deceived by wealth, they have lost their way. [COLOR=red] [/COLOR] ਸਾਚਉ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸੇਵੀਐ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਅਕਥੋ ਕਾਥਿ ॥੬॥ saacho saahib saeveeai guramukh akathho kaathh ||6|| So serve the True Lord; become Gurmukh, and speak the Unspoken. ||6|| [COLOR=red] [/COLOR] ਆਵੈ ਜਾਇ ਭਵਾਈਐ ਪਇਐ ਕਿਰਤਿ ਕਮਾਇ ॥ aavai jaae bhavaaeeai paeiai kirath kamaae || Coming and going, people wander through reincarnation; they act according to their past actions. [COLOR=red] [/COLOR] ਪੂਰਬਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਕਿਉ ਮੇਟੀਐ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਲੇਖੁ ਰਜਾਇ ॥ poorab likhiaa kio maetteeai likhiaa laekh rajaae || How can one's pre-ordained destiny be erased? It is written in accordance with the Lord's Will. [COLOR=red] [/COLOR] ਬਿਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਨ ਛੁਟੀਐ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਮਿਲਾਇ ॥੭॥ bin har naam n shhutteeai guramath milai milaae ||7|| Without the Name of the Lord, no one can be saved. Through the Guru's Teachings, we are united in His Union. ||7|| [COLOR=red] [/COLOR] ਤਿਸੁ ਬਿਨੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਕੋ ਨਹੀ ਜਿਸ ਕਾ ਜੀਉ ਪਰਾਨੁ ॥ this bin maeraa ko nehee jis kaa jeeo paraan || Without Him, I have no one to call my own. My soul and my breath of life belong to Him. [COLOR=red] [/COLOR] ਹਉਮੈ ਮਮਤਾ ਜਲਿ ਬਲਉ ਲੋਭੁ ਜਲਉ ਅਭਿਮਾਨੁ ॥ houmai mamathaa jal balo lobh jalo abhimaan || May my egotism and possessiveness be burnt to ashes, and my greed and egotistical pride consigned to the fire. [COLOR=red] [/COLOR]ਨਾਨਕ ਸਬਦੁ ਵੀਚਾਰੀਐ ਪਾਈਐ ਗੁਣੀ ਨਿਧਾਨੁ ॥੮॥੧੦॥ naanak sabadh veechaareeai paaeeai gunee nidhhaan ||8||10|| O Nanak, contemplating the Shabad, the Treasure of Excellence is obtained. ||8||10|| [/QUOTE]
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