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Understanding AGGS :Incoherent Lines

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by venod, May 29, 2007.

  1. venod

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    May 29, 2007
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    There are many lines that appear to me as totally incoherent as if something is missing from SGGS.I want to seek clarifications. i have put it in Hard Talk so that I can express my views as well.

    Doubt no.1
    The term Guru has appeared in the holy book at many places. Can You kindly explain the meaning of Guru.? Is it the SGGS or something and some one LIke LORD himself. We have a claer concept that one can go in for human form of guru. In sikhi it is not so. You have something for that. Kindly share.
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  3. simpy

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    (simpy previously Surinder Kaur Cheema)

    Mar 28, 2006
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    Respected Saadh Sangat Ji,

    One cannot believe in anything until there is doubt in one's mind about something. A teacher can try his/her best and will be of no avail if student doesn't believe in the teacher. And here we are talking about the Spiritual Guru.

    There is no difference for a seeker in Guru and God. Again one has to believe this with a pure heart. untill there is malice , duality, hatred, inferiority/superiority complex.... one cannot concieve this notion. And all these bad mental qualities has to be cured by self, nobody else can do anything in such a case. Can only direct one towards the reality, still one has to open his/her own eyes to see the reality.

    Andha kya jaane basant ki bahaar......

    humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness
  4. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Surinder ji

    "One cannot believe in anything until there is doubt in one's mind about something. A teacher can try his/her best and will be of no avail if student doesn't believe in the teacher. And here we are talking about the Spiritual Guru."

    What you have said here is profound.

    Vinod ji

    Guru translated means the Light who Dispells darkness. That is the starting point. After that, the question of its meaning in Sikhi becomes more many-layered. Guru still means in Sikhi ONE (light) who dispells darkness. But which one?

    The last Guru (with a capital 'G" was Bhai Gobind Singh dev ji, the 10th Guru. You probably already know this. Sometimes he is referred to as Naanak X, the 10th Naanak, because the spirit (jot) of Guru Naanak dev ji was passed on from one Guru to the other starting with Naanak and ending with Gobind, who then ended the succession of human Guru's.

    Now we have Siri Guru Granth Sahib - the Guru in this world of here and now. All ten Gurus, having left their physical form, also remain present in consciousness. Hence no longer a need for A Guru With a Human Form. We don't need them. Satgur speaks to us this way.

    We do have gurus, teachers, with a small "g". But never call one "Guru'. Their humility is great and it would be offensive and irreverant. Because the 10 Gurus have not left, and Siri Guru Granth Sahib is Guru.

    Satgur, Waheguru-- the divine Guru -- has always been there and here, as Surinder ji explains, for all time, for anyone who seeks, with an open heart.

    If this is a repeat of things you already know and your question goes still unanswered, I ask you accept my apology.
    #3 spnadmin, May 29, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: May 29, 2007
  5. kds1980

    kds1980 India
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    Apr 4, 2005
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    In Sikh religion the word 'Guru' has been used in three inter-related aspects:

    Firstly it is used for God, the All-Pervading Divine Spirit, the Divine Light:
    'The Guru is Beneficent, the Sanctuary of peace, The Guru is the Light of three worlds, He is the Eternal Being, O Nanak, he who believeth in Him, attaineth peace.' (Slok Mohalla 1, p-137) 'The Guru is All-Powerful, The Guru is the Formless Lord, The Guru is the Highest, Fathomless and Limitless, Ineffable is His praise; what can a sayer say?' (Sri Rag Mohalla 5, p-52) 'The Guru is Infinite God Himself Nanak, meditate upon such a Guru day and night.' (Asa Mohalla 5, p-387)

    Secondly the word 'Guru' is also used for Guru Nanak as he was the Embodiment of God's Light:
    'Guru Nanak is the perfect Guru, With the true Guru I meditateth upon God.' (Ramkali Mohalla 4, p-882) 'Guru Nanak is the true Guru, The true Guru taketh me to God.' (Kanra Mohalla 4, p-1310) 'The Guru and God are one , Divine Master pervadeth everywhere.' (Sri Rag Mohalla 5, p-53)

    Thirdly the word 'Guru' is used for Gurbani, the Divine Word. Since Gurbani came direct from God, and as there is no difference between God and His order (Divine Word), Gurbani is Guru too:
    'The Word is the Guru, And the Guru is the Word, The Guru's Word is full of life-giving Elixir, Whosoever shall obey, what the Word commandeth, Verily he shall get salvation.' (Nat Mohalla 4, p-982) 'The Word is the True Guru and True Guru is the Word, And the Word revealeth the path of salvation.' (Kanra Mohalla 4, p-1310)

    Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
  6. tarlochan singh

    tarlochan singh
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    Feb 21, 2007
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    GUR FATHE. (thats victory to the almighty not any living being)

  7. vsgrewal48895

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    Mar 12, 2009
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    Mahan Kosh, Page, 415;

    • Guru or Gur is from the word ਗੀ੍- ਧਾਤੁ meaning; (1) ਤਤ (2) ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਜੋ ਸਭ ਨੂੰ ਧਾਰਨ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖ (3) ਧਾਉਣਾ, ਦੌੜ (4) ਧਰਤੀ ਵਿਚੋਂ ਨਿਕਲਣ ਵਾਲਾ ਖਣਿਜ ਪਦਾਰਥ (ਨਿਰਣੈ,ਦਰਪਣ) ਭਾਵ ਜੀਵ ਆਤਮਾ (ਮਹਾਨਕੋਸ਼) (5) ਗੁਣ (ਮਹਾਨਕੋਸ਼), ਬੀਜ, ਮੂਲ (ਨਿਰਣੈ), ਅਸਲਾ (ਦਰਪਣ) (6) ਮਾਇਆ, ਧਾਉਣ ਵਾਲੀ, ਨਾਸ਼ਵੰਤ (7) ਭੱਜ ਕੇ ਦੂਰ ਜਾਣ/ਮਾਇਆ ਵਾਲਾ (8) ਰੁਚੀ,
    • ਨਿਗਲਣਾ-To swallow, to gulp, to eat, to embezzle.
    • ਸਮਝਾਉਣਾ- ਗ੍ਯਾਨ ਕਰਾਉਣਾ. ਸਮ੍ਯਕ ਬੋਧ ਕਰਾਉਣਾ.- To explain, to instruct, to cause to understand, to advise, to inculcate, to warn.
    • To remove- Ignorance, lack of knowledge, lack of information.- ਗਿਆਨ-ਹੀਨਤਾ, ਬੇ-ਸਮਝੀ/ ਅਗਯਾਨ
    • To teach- ਤਤੁਗਯਾਨ-Spiritual Wisdom- ਤਤ੍ਵਗ੍ਯਾਨ. ਸਾਰਗ੍ਯਾਨ. ਯਥਾਰਥਗ੍ਯਾਨ। (2) ਆਤਮਗ੍ਯਾਨ. ਬ੍ਰਹਮਗ੍ਯਾਨ.

    In short it means “SPIRITUAL TEACHER” and the references can be found in AGGS as follows;

    • Guru Nanak, Siri Raag, AGGS, Page, 59-7
    • Guru Nanak, Siri Raag, AGGS, Page, 61-17
    • Guru Nanak Raag Asa, AGGS, Page, 469-17
    • Guru Nanak, Sloke Vaaran To Vadheek, AGGS, Page, 1412-5
    • Guru Arjan, Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 262-3

    Spiritually there is no difference between God and an enlightened person. There are plenty of references in AGGS on the subject.


  8. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Virinder ji

    A couple of concerns about your above post.

    If you are asking a question or looking for clarifications of either Mahan Kosh or Gurbani, then please revise your comments so that it is clear that you are asking for information and clarification.

    Otherwise the connections between the Mahan Kosh definitions and The Gurbani you have cited are not clear at all.

    Let me give you my own take: Guru Granth is never incoherent or contradictory. When it appears that way it is the result of our own limitations. Systematic reading and reading of the parts where WE are confused often leads to clear understanding in time. Also it helps to consult with knowledgeable people.

    Now my question for you - Please, by posting the entire shabads and giving your own explanation, explain where in Sri Guru Granth Sahib -- or specifically in Sriraag, Guruji says that " there is no difference between a spiritually enlightened person and God?"

    I checked the first citation you gave from Ang 59 line 7 -- Where does it say anything about a spiritually enlightened person is no different from God? I can't find it. It could be because I am myself a moorath. Here it is,

    sireeraag mehalaa 1 ||
    Siree Raag, First Mehl:

    ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਜੇ ਮਿਲੈ ਪਾਈਐ ਰਤਨੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
    sathigur pooraa jae milai paaeeai rathan beechaar ||
    Meeting the Perfect True Guru, we find the jewel of meditative reflection.

    ਮਨੁ ਦੀਜੈ ਗੁਰ ਆਪਣੇ ਪਾਈਐ ਸਰਬ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥
    man dheejai gur aapanae paaeeai sarab piaar ||
    Surrendering our minds to our Guru, we find universal love.

    ਮੁਕਤਿ ਪਦਾਰਥੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਅਵਗਣ ਮੇਟਣਹਾਰੁ ॥੧॥
    mukath padhaarathh paaeeai avagan maettanehaar ||1||
    We find the wealth of liberation, and our demerits are erased. ||1||

    ਭਾਈ ਰੇ ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥
    bhaaee rae gur bin giaan n hoe ||
    O Siblings of Destiny, without the Guru, there is no spiritual wisdom.

    ਪੂਛਹੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੇ ਨਾਰਦੈ ਬੇਦ ਬਿਆਸੈ ਕੋਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
    pooshhahu brehamae naaradhai baedh biaasai koe ||1|| rehaao ||
    Go and ask Brahma, Naarad and Vyaas, the writer of the Vedas. ||1||Pause||

    ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਧੁਨਿ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਅਕਥੁ ਕਹਾਵੈ ਸੋਇ ॥
    giaan dhhiaan dhhun jaaneeai akathh kehaavai soe ||
    Know that from the vibration of the Word, we obtain spiritual wisdom and meditation. Through it, we speak the Unspoken.

    ਸਫਲਿਓ ਬਿਰਖੁ ਹਰੀਆਵਲਾ ਛਾਵ ਘਣੇਰੀ ਹੋਇ ॥
    safaliou birakh hareeaavalaa shhaav ghanaeree hoe ||
    He is the fruit-bearing Tree, luxuriantly green with abundant shade.

    ਲਾਲ ਜਵੇਹਰ ਮਾਣਕੀ ਗੁਰ ਭੰਡਾਰੈ ਸੋਇ ॥੨॥
    laal javaehar maanakee gur bhanddaarai soe ||2||
    The rubies, jewels and emeralds are in the Guru's Treasury. ||2||

    ਗੁਰ ਭੰਡਾਰੈ ਪਾਈਐ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਨਾਮ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥
    gur bhanddaarai paaeeai niramal naam piaar ||
    From the Guru's Treasury, we receive the Love of the Immaculate Naam, the Name of the Lord.

    ਸਾਚੋ ਵਖਰੁ ਸੰਚੀਐ ਪੂਰੈ ਕਰਮਿ ਅਪਾਰੁ ॥
    saacho vakhar sancheeai poorai karam apaar ||
    We gather in the True Merchandise, through the Perfect Grace of the Infinite.

    ਸੁਖਦਾਤਾ ਦੁਖ ਮੇਟਣੋ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਅਸੁਰ ਸੰਘਾਰੁ ॥੩॥
    sukhadhaathaa dhukh maettano sathigur asur sanghaar ||3||
    The True Guru is the Giver of peace, the Dispeller of pain, the Destroyer of demons. ||3||

    ਭਵਜਲੁ ਬਿਖਮੁ ਡਰਾਵਣੋ ਨਾ ਕੰਧੀ ਨਾ ਪਾਰੁ ॥
    bhavajal bikham ddaraavano naa kandhhee naa paar ||
    The terrifying world-ocean is difficult and dreadful; there is no shore on this side or the one beyond.

    ਨਾ ਬੇੜੀ ਨਾ ਤੁਲਹੜਾ ਨਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਵੰਝੁ ਮਲਾਰੁ ॥
    naa baerree naa thuleharraa naa this vanjh malaar ||
    There is no boat, no raft, no oars and no boatman.

    ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਭੈ ਕਾ ਬੋਹਿਥਾ ਨਦਰੀ ਪਾਰਿ ਉਤਾਰੁ ॥੪॥
    sathigur bhai kaa bohithhaa nadharee paar outhaar ||4||
    The True Guru is the only boat on this terrifying ocean. His Glance of Grace carries us across. ||4||
    ਇਕੁ ਤਿਲੁ ਪਿਆਰਾ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਦੁਖੁ ਲਾਗੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਜਾਇ ॥
    eik thil piaaraa visarai dhukh laagai sukh jaae ||
    If I forget my Beloved, even for an instant, suffering overtakes me and peace departs.

    ਜਿਹਵਾ ਜਲਉ ਜਲਾਵਣੀ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਜਪੈ ਰਸਾਇ ॥
    jihavaa jalo jalaavanee naam n japai rasaae ||
    Let that tongue be burnt in flames, which does not chant the Naam with love.

    ਘਟੁ ਬਿਨਸੈ ਦੁਖੁ ਅਗਲੋ ਜਮੁ ਪਕੜੈ ਪਛੁਤਾਇ ॥੫॥
    ghatt binasai dhukh agalo jam pakarrai pashhuthaae ||5||
    When the pitcher of the body bursts, there is terrible pain; those who are caught by the Minister of Death regret and repent. ||5||

    ਮੇਰੀ ਮੇਰੀ ਕਰਿ ਗਏ ਤਨੁ ਧਨੁ ਕਲਤੁ ਨ ਸਾਥਿ ॥
    maeree maeree kar geae than dhhan kalath n saathh ||
    Crying out, ""Mine! Mine!"", they have departed, but their bodies, their wealth, and their wives did not go with them.

    ਬਿਨੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਧਨੁ ਬਾਦਿ ਹੈ ਭੂਲੋ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਆਥਿ ॥
    bin naavai dhhan baadh hai bhoolo maarag aathh ||
    Without the Name, wealth is useless; deceived by wealth, they have lost their way.

    ਸਾਚਉ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸੇਵੀਐ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਅਕਥੋ ਕਾਥਿ ॥੬॥
    saacho saahib saeveeai guramukh akathho kaathh ||6||
    So serve the True Lord; become Gurmukh, and speak the Unspoken. ||6||

    ਆਵੈ ਜਾਇ ਭਵਾਈਐ ਪਇਐ ਕਿਰਤਿ ਕਮਾਇ ॥
    aavai jaae bhavaaeeai paeiai kirath kamaae ||
    Coming and going, people wander through reincarnation; they act according to their past actions.

    ਪੂਰਬਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਕਿਉ ਮੇਟੀਐ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਲੇਖੁ ਰਜਾਇ ॥
    poorab likhiaa kio maetteeai likhiaa laekh rajaae ||
    How can one's pre-ordained destiny be erased? It is written in accordance with the Lord's Will.

    ਬਿਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਨ ਛੁਟੀਐ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਮਿਲਾਇ ॥੭॥
    bin har naam n shhutteeai guramath milai milaae ||7||
    Without the Name of the Lord, no one can be saved. Through the Guru's Teachings, we are united in His Union. ||7||

    ਤਿਸੁ ਬਿਨੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਕੋ ਨਹੀ ਜਿਸ ਕਾ ਜੀਉ ਪਰਾਨੁ ॥
    this bin maeraa ko nehee jis kaa jeeo paraan ||
    Without Him, I have no one to call my own. My soul and my breath of life belong to Him.

    ਹਉਮੈ ਮਮਤਾ ਜਲਿ ਬਲਉ ਲੋਭੁ ਜਲਉ ਅਭਿਮਾਨੁ ॥
    houmai mamathaa jal balo lobh jalo abhimaan ||
    May my egotism and possessiveness be burnt to ashes, and my greed and egotistical pride consigned to the fire.

    ਨਾਨਕ ਸਬਦੁ ਵੀਚਾਰੀਐ ਪਾਈਐ ਗੁਣੀ ਨਿਧਾਨੁ ॥੮॥੧੦॥
    naanak sabadh veechaareeai paaeeai gunee nidhhaan ||8||10||
    O Nanak, contemplating the Shabad, the Treasure of Excellence is obtained. ||8||10||
  9. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    So this shabad says something completely different to me -- and I don't think we are free to read things into it.

    Also, when interpreting Mahan Kosh -- to be brief - unlike many other languages, Punjabi can assign vastly different meanings to individual words and phrases because of the way a meaning is implied in context. So is it legitimate to boil down a meaning for a word/phrase/or sentence-- after great pains had been taken in Mahan Kosh to explore implications :confused::confused::confused::confused: In other words, it is not that clear-cut. Mahan Kosh is going for detail and subtlety and nuances, not the "in short" result.
  10. vsgrewal48895

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    Dear Aad Ji,

    I tried to bring the subject in to a debate as to how difficult is it to translate or understand the words/hymns contained in Sabd Guru. The literal translations usually translate in to some thing different than what the writer meant IMHO. I like to go to the origin of the word and do like the explanations of Mahan Kosh. Of course we do have the individual right to differ. Now here are the two complete Sabds to show what I wrote that there is no difference between God and an enlightened individual as said by Guru Arjan in Raag Asa and Bhagat Kabir in Raag Gauri Thiti. There are many references that there is no difference between God and Guru in AGGS. Confusion has been caused by the SPN policy of banning one liner’s, there by the individual does not try to do his bidding to go in to the whole Sabd;

    ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥-397-17
    Aasaa, Fifth Mehl:
    ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਨ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਨਾਮੁ ਸੇ ਕਿਨੇਹਿਆ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਜਾਣਹੁ ਮੂਲਿ ਸਾਂਈ ਜੇਹਿਆ ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਹੋਇ ਨਿਹਾਲੁ ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਸੰਗਿ ਭੇਟਿਆ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਜਨ ਪਰਸਾਦਿ ਦੁਖੁ ਸਭੁ ਮੇਟਿਆ ਰਹਾਉ ਜੇਤੇ ਖੰਡ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡ ਉਧਾਰੇ ਤਿੰਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਖੇ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਮਨਿ ਵੁਠਾ ਆਪਿ ਪੂਰੇ ਭਗਤ ਸੇ ਜਿਸ ਨੋ ਮੰਨੇ ਆਪਿ ਸੋਈ ਮਾਨੀਐ ਪ੍ਰਗਟ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ਸਭ ਠਾਈ ਜਾਨੀਐ ਦਿਨਸੁ ਰੈਣਿ ਆਰਾਧਿ ਸਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਲੇ ਸਾਹ ਸਾਹ ਨਾਨਕ ਕੀ ਲੋਚਾ ਪੂਰਿ ਸਚੇ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹ ੧੦੮

    Jinĥā na visrai nām se kinehi▫ā. Be na jāhu mūl sāʼn▫ī jehi▫ā. ||1|| Man an ho▫e nihāl umĥ sang beti▫ā. Suk pā▫i▫ā jan parsā uk sab meti▫ā. ||1|| rahā▫o. Jee kand barahmand uḏẖāre inĥ ke. Jinĥ man vuṯẖā āp pūre baga se. ||2|| Jis no manne āp so▫ī mānī▫ai. Pargat purak parvā sab ṯẖā▫ī jānī▫ai. ||3||inas rai ārāḏẖ samĥāle sāh sāh. Nānak kī locā pūr sace pāisāh. ||4||6||108||

    What are they like - those who do not forget the Naam? Know that there is absolutely no difference; they are exactly like the Akal Purkh. ||1|| The mind and body are enraptured, meeting with You, O Akal Purkh. Peace is obtained, by the favor of the Lord's humble servant; all pains are taken away. ||1||Pause|| As many as are the continents of the world, so many have been saved.
    Those, in whose minds You Yourself dwell, O God, are the perfect devotees. ||2|| Those whom You approve, are approved. Such a celebrated and honored person is known everywhere. ||3||
    Day and night, with every breath to worship and adore the Akal,Purkh- please, O True Supreme King, fulfill this, Nanak's desire. ||4||6||108||

    ਸਲੋਕੁ ॥ -Kabir, Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 343-4
    ਪੰਦ੍ਰਹ ਥਿਤੀ ਸਾਤ ਵਾਰ ਕਹਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਉਰਵਾਰ ਨ ਪਾਰ ਸਾਧਿਕ ਸਿਧ ਲਖੈ ਜਉ ਭੇਉ ਆਪੇ ਕਰਤਾ ਆਪੇ ਦੇਉ
    Panrėh thiīʼn sā vār. Kahi Kabīr urvār na pār. Sāḏẖik siḏẖ lakai ja▫o be▫o. Āpe karā āpe e▫o. ||1||

    There are fifteen lunar days, and seven days of the week. Says Kabir, it is neither here nor there. When the Siddhas and seekers come to know the God's mystery, they themselves become the Divine Creator. ||1||


  11. spnadmin

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    virinder ji

    I should do more justice to your recent ideas - but will have to come back to do that. Just want to say this. If there is no difference between a spiritual teacher and God, then hats of to all the dera babas and satugurus who have been making this claim all along.

    Well, I will return to further discuss this with you.
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  12. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
    Mentor Writer SPNer Contributor

    Jul 4, 2004
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    the Enlightened being is an IMAGE..Exact REPLICA..like the Creator....
    BUT the difference is that the IMAGE in the MIRROR DEPENDS on the "Being" standing before it...the IMAGE is powerless..and will disappear the moment the "Being" moves away !!!

    The DERA SANT BABA..the Radha soami Beas Guru..the ram Rahim Sacha sauda..all beleive they are NOT the IMAGE in the mirror BUT the BEING...the CREATOR...incarnate and behave as such....

    Our GURUS understood all this very well..thats why they assigned themslves JUST NUMBERS..1,2,3,4,5,9 and the COMMON NAME..NANAK !! instead of behaving like AApeh Karta aapeh DEO....UNLIKE the DERA BABAS..the Living GURUS..today....who have so much EGO and GREED that it OOZES OUT of their EARS..like the Proverbial wax that is supposed to have been used to create this Brahmand...they thinka nd behave like they are the "Ears" and the rest of the Universe is just WAX..that came out.

    Its NOT Gurbani/GURU/SGGS that is INCOHERRENT..its US.:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
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