Hard Talk Trouble Understanding This Shabad With Reference To Women

[Parma]

Here is the translation by Bhai Manmohan Singh ji for the same passage on Ang 304. It gives a better context for what Guru Ram Das ji is communicating.

ਮਃ ੪ ॥
मः ४ ॥
Mėhlā 4.
4Th Guru.

ਸਾਰਾ ਦਿਨੁ ਲਾਲਚਿ ਅਟਿਆ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਹੋਰੇ ਗਲਾ ॥
सारा दिनु लालचि अटिआ मनमुखि होरे गला ॥
Sārā ḏin lālacẖ ati▫ā manmukẖ hore galā.
The perverse person is all day occupied with avarice though he talks otherwise.

ਰਾਤੀ ਊਘੈ ਦਬਿਆ ਨਵੇ ਸੋਤ ਸਭਿ ਢਿਲਾ ॥
राती ऊघै दबिआ नवे सोत सभि ढिला ॥
Rāṯī ūgẖai ḏabi▫ā nave soṯ sabẖ dẖilā.
At night he is over-powered by drowsiness and all his nine apertures get weakened.

ਮਨਮੁਖਾ ਦੈ ਸਿਰਿ ਜੋਰਾ ਅਮਰੁ ਹੈ ਨਿਤ ਦੇਵਹਿ ਭਲਾ ॥
मनमुखा दै सिरि जोरा अमरु है नित देवहि भला ॥
Manmukẖā ḏai sir jorā amar hai niṯ ḏevėh bẖalā.
On the head of an apostate is the order of the woman and he ever holds out good promises to her.

ਜੋਰਾ ਦਾ ਆਖਿਆ ਪੁਰਖ ਕਮਾਵਦੇ ਸੇ ਅਪਵਿਤ ਅਮੇਧ ਖਲਾ ॥
जोरा दा आखिआ पुरख कमावदे से अपवित अमेध खला ॥
Jorā ḏā ākẖi▫ā purakẖ kamāvḏe se apviṯ ameḏẖ kẖalā.
The men, who act as women tell them, are impure filthy and foolish.

ਕਾਮਿ ਵਿਆਪੇ ਕੁਸੁਧ ਨਰ ਸੇ ਜੋਰਾ ਪੁਛਿ ਚਲਾ ॥
कामि विआपे कुसुध नर से जोरा पुछि चला ॥
Kām vi▫āpe kusuḏẖ nar se jorā pucẖẖ cẖalā.
The impure persons are engrossed in lust. They consult women and walk accordingly.

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਆਖਿਐ ਜੋ ਚਲੈ ਸੋ ਸਤਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਭਲ ਭਲਾ ॥
सतिगुर कै आखिऐ जो चलै सो सति पुरखु भल भला ॥
Saṯgur kai ākẖi▫ai jo cẖalai so saṯ purakẖ bẖal bẖalā.
He who walks as the True Guru tells him he is the true man the best of the good.

ਜੋਰਾ ਪੁਰਖ ਸਭਿ ਆਪਿ ਉਪਾਇਅਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਖੇਲ ਸਭਿ ਖਿਲਾ ॥
जोरा पुरख सभि आपि उपाइअनु हरि खेल सभि खिला ॥
Jorā purakẖ sabẖ āp upā▫i▫an har kẖel sabẖ kẖilā.
He Himself has created all the women and men. God plays every play.

ਸਭ ਤੇਰੀ ਬਣਤ ਬਣਾਵਣੀ ਨਾਨਕ ਭਲ ਭਲਾ ॥੨॥
सभ तेरी बणत बणावणी नानक भल भला ॥२॥
Sabẖ ṯerī baṇaṯ baṇāvaṇī Nānak bẖal bẖalā. ||2||
All the make that Thou hast made, O Nanak is the best of the best.

In the Sant Singh translation the first line begins with "the self-willed manmukh" and in Bhai Manmohan Singh's translation it is the "perverse" person who is the subject of the vaar. Bhai ji's translation brings the thought closer to what the shabad actually says.

I do not read this shabad to mean that the orders of women lead to impurity and foolishness. It is dense I must admit. However, the shabad applies to someone who cannot or will not free himself emotionally from his avarice/greed and his lust for women, and remains stuck in his perverseness. This perverse person becomes drowsy in the spiritual sense (loses consciousness). A good analogy would be how we become sleepy when we eat too much. Guru Ram Das ji equates weakening of the spiritual centers with the drowsiness that comes from engrossment in lust/in sensuality.

ਰਾਤੀ ਊਘੈ ਦਬਿਆ ਨਵੇ ਸੋਤ ਸਭਿ ਢਿਲਾ ॥
राती ऊघै दबिआ नवे सोत सभि ढिला ॥
Rāṯī ūgẖai ḏabi▫ā nave soṯ sabẖ dẖilā.
At night he is over-powered by drowsiness and all his nine apertures get weakened.

Then he goes on to explain the consequences of losing spiritual consciousness to investments in sensuality. One ends up driven like a horse, a mere animal. ਹੈ Hai in this case means in metaphor he is (like) a horse. He is like a horse who is controlled by (his lust for ) a woman.

ਮਨਮੁਖਾ ਦੈ ਸਿਰਿ ਜੋਰਾ ਅਮਰੁ ਹੈ ਨਿਤ ਦੇਵਹਿ ਭਲਾ ॥
मनमुखा दै सिरि जोरा अमरु है नित देवहि भला ॥
Manmukẖā ḏai sir jorā amar hai niṯ ḏevėh bẖalā.
On the head of an apostate is the order of the woman and he ever holds out good promises to her.

The man who ends up driven like a horse is also utterly dependent on receiving the favors of the one who drives him, in this case a woman, and "walks accordingly." In other words he is driven like a horse, and walks in the harness of another human being, like a mere animal.

ਕਾਮਿ ਵਿਆਪੇ ਕੁਸੁਧ ਨਰ ਸੇ ਜੋਰਾ ਪੁਛਿ ਚਲਾ ॥
कामि विआपे कुसुध नर से जोरा पुछि चला ॥
Kām vi▫āpe kusuḏẖ nar se jorā pucẖẖ cẖalā.
The impure persons are engrossed in lust. They consult women and walk accordingly.

One also has to read the saloka that comes before and the pauree that follows because they elaborate. Other kinds of perversity undermine. In the pauree, Guru Ram Das repeats that we pine for those things that are poisonous to our spiritual health. One part of it says,

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਰੀਸੈ ਹੋਰਿ ਕਚੁ ਪਿਚੁ ਬੋਲਦੇ ਸੇ ਕੂੜਿਆਰ ਕੂੜੇ ਝੜਿ ਪੜੀਐ ॥
सतिगुर की रीसै होरि कचु पिचु बोलदे से कूड़िआर कूड़े झड़ि पड़ीऐ ॥
Saṯgur kī rīsai hor kacẖ picẖ bolḏe se kūṛi▫ār kūṛe jẖaṛ paṛī▫ai.
By way of emulating the True Guru some others utter filth bad and good sermons but because of falsehood, those false ones soon get devastated.

ਓਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਹੋਰੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਹੋਰੁ ਹੈ ਬਿਖੁ ਮਾਇਆ ਨੋ ਝਖਿ ਮਰਦੇ ਕੜੀਐ ॥੯॥
ओन्हा अंदरि होरु मुखि होरु है बिखु माइआ नो झखि मरदे कड़ीऐ ॥९॥
Onĥā anḏar hor mukẖ hor hai bikẖ mā▫i▫ā no jẖakẖ marḏe kaṛī▫ai. ||9||
In their heart is one thing and in their mouth is quite another. They hanker after and pine away for the poisonous wealth.

The point of these vaars is not about the evils of women. This is the point.

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਸਤਿ ਸਰੂਪੁ ਹੈ ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਬਣੀਐ ॥
सतिगुर की बाणी सति सरूपु है गुरबाणी बणीऐ ॥
Saṯgur kī baṇī saṯ sarūp hai gurbāṇī baṇī▫ai.
The Gurbani if the Satguru is the embodiment of Truth. Through Gurbani the mortal becomes perfect.

This is a clumsy effort on my part. But the best I can do.

Great understanding that the manmukhs female or male are described with feminine qualities as an example to show that human aspects of God in relation to manmukhs is that its always Waheguru's ultimate win not the manmukhs. Waheguru ji ki fathe. The manmukhs are never in the process of finding there own soul as there are many different types of words used to illustrate separation an union of man and nature in the guru granth sahib and I guess it suggests that the manmukhs are lost in a process of thoughts. As the expanse of nature's (thoughts) illusion maya female or male (humans) is unknown.

 

[Parma]

Great understanding that the manmukhs female or male are described with feminine qualities as an example to show that human aspects of God in relation to manmukhs is that its always Waheguru's ultimate win not the manmukhs. Waheguru ji ki fathe. The manmukhs are never in the process of finding there own soul as there are many different types of words used to illustrate separation an union of man and nature in the guru granth sahib and I guess it suggests that the manmukhs are lost in a process of thoughts. As the expanse of nature's (thoughts) illusion maya female or male (humans) is unknown.

. Manmukhs winning smile. Lol. As the smile is the beautification of a human face and can make humans think of it. They are also giving Beautification of the shabad=word. Supports there knowledge base of God.

 

[Original]

Pyare Sad Sangat Ji

ਮਃ ੪ ॥ ਸਾਰਾ ਦਿਨੁ ਲਾਲਚਿ ਅਟਿਆ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਹੋਰੇ ਗਲਾ ॥ ਰਾਤੀ ਊਘੈ ਦਬਿਆ ਨਵੇ ਸੋਤ ਸਭਿ ਢਿਲਾ ॥ ਮਨਮੁਖਾ ਦੈ ਸਿਰਿ ਜੋਰਾ ਅਮਰੁ ਹੈ ਨਿਤ ਦੇਵਹਿ ਭਲਾ ॥ ਜੋਰਾ ਦਾ ਆਖਿਆ ਪੁਰਖ ਕਮਾਵਦੇ ਸੇ ਅਪਵਿਤ ਅਮੇਧ ਖਲਾ ॥ ਕਾਮਿ ਵਿਆਪੇ ਕੁਸੁਧ ਨਰ ਸੇ ਜੋਰਾ ਪੁਛਿ ਚਲਾ ॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 304}

First n foremost, who is reading the shabd, Gurmukh [GM] or Manmukh [MM]? If it is GM then it is to be revered, believed n treated subjectively beneficial with a view to spiritual heights. And, if MM then it is to be considered as a poem and treated accordingly.

There are various strategies for reading and appreciating Gurbani. The shabd above by the 4th master is to be read in a context that reflects for example, the following:

• shabd's subject matter [manmukh].
• objective is to switch the human being from a mere social animal to a more reflective n illuminative spiritual divine being that he/she really is
• message advanced is vice n virtue [silent]. In this case it is performance virtue n not moral virtue because greed n sex are genetic components and therefore requires self-control and not divine intervention [God is removed from the equation altogether]
• context within which it is framed is an appeal to the mind as an analogy and not comparison with Gurmukh. Why? Because Guru Ji very skilfully wanted to achieve the objective without bias n discrimination on part manmukh, thus an overview.
• genre - social/religious
• form - poetic, therefore condensed with wider meaning n implications. Literary skill used by Guru Ji is similes and not metaphors to hone n evoke evaluation skills of the reader. And, make room as it were for the shabd to permeate and contaminate the human mind
• purpose is to show the spiritual significance of performance virtue [GM] over mental and evolutionary human condition [MM].
• Does Guru Ji achieve objective ? Yes, I think so ! SPNadmin captured the key word "perverse". This one word if properly understood will fulfil desired effect.
• woman is used as an imagery to reflect social tie n trend of the then Indian society and not gender discrimination or inequality. Sikh Ideology rises above such categorisations and looks at creation as part of the creator therefore all equal.

More another time !

Goodnight all n Godbless

 

[Brother Onam]

As Sikhi is forward in its outlook/teaching and especially when it was written, should it be updated and rewritten for this modern age and for many who are living in the western world where it seems more appropiate for women to be seen as equals and a cosmopolitan society.

Sat Sri Akaal,
The only way to update, revise or 'rewrite' Sikhi is to MAKE history. Of course it would be insane to think to repackage holy scripture for current times.
To the extent that women have been in a secondary position in our history, the only remedy is to create an environment in which girls and women are liberated and encouraged to flourish and excel now. That way, in the long view people will look back on the period where women took the reins and issued in a season of great female figures who embodied the power of Naam in their leadership, charitable work, life-saving, excellence in arts and performance, and any other way they may let the world know that the Gurus have given birth to the spectacular exemplars of divine warrior-saints in female form.

 

[Parma]

Sat Sri Akaal,
The only way to update, revise or 'rewrite' Sikhi is to MAKE history. Of course it would be insane to think to repackage holy scripture for current times.
To the extent that women have been in a secondary position in our history, the only remedy is to create an environment in which girls and women are liberated and encouraged to flourish and excel now. That way, in the long view people will look back on the period where women took the reins and issued in a season of great female figures who embodied the power of Naam in their leadership, charitable work, life-saving, excellence in arts and performance, and any other way they may let the world know that the Gurus have given birth to the spectacular exemplars of divine warrior-saints in female form.

In that sense of development female Saint's are indestructible forms as they give guidance to the light of birth and creatively designed beings and men are formed by a weaker design as they by that very same nature of design are unable to birth right. The emphasis seems to be more on beautification of the shabad then on forms an as such the message is an emphasis for humanity to look beyond form's an understand the gurmukh shabad in nature's unique love.

 

[Harkiran Kaur]

Sat Sri Akaal,
The only way to update, revise or 'rewrite' Sikhi is to MAKE history. Of course it would be insane to think to repackage holy scripture for current times.
To the extent that women have been in a secondary position in our history, the only remedy is to create an environment in which girls and women are liberated and encouraged to flourish and excel now. That way, in the long view people will look back on the period where women took the reins and issued in a season of great female figures who embodied the power of Naam in their leadership, charitable work, life-saving, excellence in arts and performance, and any other way they may let the world know that the Gurus have given birth to the spectacular exemplars of divine warrior-saints in female form.

The problem is how do we do this when we have sects in Sikhi who very much WANT women to stay in a secondary and inferior position. I won`t name them, but they have their own Rehet Maryadas, relegating women to lesser roles, and keeping women from prominent seva like Granthi, Kirtan Ragis, Panj Pyaras, want to restrict women from any seva of SGGSJ when menstruating citing that women are impure at that time, and in their Rehet Maryadas instruct wives to view and serve their husband as God (Parmeshwar) while telling the husband to view his wife as a faithful `follower`only. Participation in Gurdwara Management by women is not even encouraged. (Here in my local area thankfully it is, and I am now serving my second year on the executive as a female) These sects, their position is very clear. Women are NOT to have equal opportunity or be seen on an equal level to men in Sikhi. They emphasize the facts that no Gurus were female (despite the fact the the word ``Gurbani`` actually insinuates feminine form meaning SGGSJ our longest and only Guru forever onward is feminine, but I digress). Unfortunately, these groups are in control in Amritsar, and as a result women are kept from most seva at Darbar Sahib and other historical Gurdwaras. The message is clear, women are to shut up, listen to the men, make langar, and serve and obey their husbands as God over them.

 

[Admin]

Harikiran ji, you are one of the torch bearers of women's cause in Sikhism... do persist with your crusade... and don't get discouraged...

 

[Parma]

On the feminine qualities of the word Gurbani. It starts with the emphasis of Gur=knowledge and shows that knowledge where something starts from is the product of its end as knowledge has no boundaries as the battle is already won its just how do you understand peace; but in fact in understanding our mindsets or interpretations will reveal our own humanity and its own understanding of knowledge which is something that the soul or source of energy we come from must guide ourselves on as each seva has its own unique force and effect or formation of love for the akal purakh not the manmukh or even the gurmukh but for Waheguru the Akal purakh the formless one.

 

[ActsOfGod]

As Sikhi is forward in its outlook/teaching and especially when it was written, should it be updated and rewritten for this modern age and for many who are living in the western world where it seems more appropiate for women to be seen as equals and a cosmopolitan society.

Are you quite serious? If you are talking about "updating" and "rewriting" the Gurbani, then you are sadly mistaken and grossly ignorant.

Before putting forth such ludicrous suggestions, please go and study Sikh history and learn about the importance and the place of Gurbani in the life of a Sikh.

These types of statements are not only ignorant, but they border on the sacrilegious, and hurt the sentiments of Sikhs.

As far as your assertion that women need only be seen as equals in the western world or in a cosmopolitan society, you are quite wrong in this regard. Women are equal in every society, every culture, everywhere, in every sphere of life. In many respects, they are superior in their abilities, a woman can do something no man can do (for example, give birth).

The discrimination exists in your mind, because you feel that women in non-western cultures need not be afforded the same status. Correct your mind, not Guru Sahib.

Just because you don't understand Gurbani, does not mean that it is wrong. Gurbani is a direct revelation from the Creator. Guru Sahib is perfect, and the Creator is perfect. They cannot make a mistake. Do you really, honestly believe that the Almighty Creator who created the Universe and planets and everything in existence, would make mistakes about gender equality? Do you seriously believe that?

Please study Sikh history and spend some time reading Sri Guru Granth Sahib. And pray for some enlightenment so that you may refrain from further inappropriate suggestions regarding Guru Sahib.

[AoG]

 

[Original]

Are you quite serious? If you are talking about "updating" and "rewriting" the Gurbani, then you are sadly mistaken and grossly ignorant.

Before putting forth such ludicrous suggestions, please go and study Sikh history and learn about the importance and the place of Gurbani in the life of a Sikh.

These types of statements are not only ignorant, but they border on the sacrilegious, and hurt the sentiments of Sikhs.

As far as your assertion that women need only be seen as equals in the western world or in a cosmopolitan society, you are quite wrong in this regard. Women are equal in every society, every culture, everywhere, in every sphere of life. In many respects, they are superior in their abilities, a woman can do something no man can do (for example, give birth).

The discrimination exists in your mind, because you feel that women in non-western cultures need not be afforded the same status. Correct your mind, not Guru Sahib.

Just because you don't understand Gurbani, does not mean that it is wrong. Gurbani is a direct revelation from the Creator. Guru Sahib is perfect, and the Creator is perfect. They cannot make a mistake. Do you really, honestly believe that the Almighty Creator who created the Universe and planets and everything in existence, would make mistakes about gender equality? Do you seriously believe that?

Please study Sikh history and spend some time reading Sri Guru Granth Sahib. And pray for some enlightenment so that you may refrain from further inappropriate suggestions regarding Guru Sahib.

[AoG]

AoG

What will it be, a milkshake or a gold medal ? Beautifully hammered home the msg above ! Too good !

Gdnite

 

[Parma]

AoG

What will it be, a milkshake or a gold medal ? Beautifully hammered home the msg above ! Too good !

Gdnite

Ji Hukam.

 

[Parma]

Ji its waheguru ji ki khalsa and waheguru ji ki fathe.

 

[Ishna]

Ji its waheguru ji ki khalsa and waheguru ji ki fathe.

Parma Ji, I thought it was "ji KA Khalsa"?

 

[Parma]

Parma Ji, I thought it was "ji KA Khalsa"?

I asked for my hukam from the khalsa I'm just replying to the response respectively that I got from the sat sangat worldwide Web could have been anything that the sangat required of me. Sorry my comment is meant in a third party conference style of response. Could be I just remember hearing it more as an KI. I guess with mine it should be more resounding as in Waherguru ji; ki khalsa? Waheguru ji; ki fathe? Asking phase for me is asking waheguru! I think if I think about it deeply from say a third party basis an let's say i was a vicar and my congregation was following my sermon but they kept dying around me without it sounding demoralising to the panth I guess it may make sense. From my own thoughts though when I say it; without fully being able to varify other thought mechanisms that may have been used to pronounce the words mine is a request from me to waheguru ji to look at the expanse and realm of nature as it is; so that my seva to waheguru ji is up to waheguru ji. Only thing I can really say is humans think differently about orders and requests its for the human individual to understand there own positions in the cosmos of things at the point of seva.

 

[Ishna]

I asked for my hukam from the khalsa I'm just replying to the response respectively that I got from the sat sangat worldwide Web could have been anything that the sangat required of me. Sorry my comment is meant in a third party conference style of response. Could be I just remember hearing it more as an KI. I guess with mine it should be more resounding as in Waherguru ji; ki khalsa? Waheguru ji; ki fathe? Asking phase for me is asking waheguru! I think if I think about it deeply from say a third party basis an let's say i was a vicar and my congregation was following my sermon but they kept dying around me without it sounding demoralising to the panth I guess it may make sense. From my own thoughts though when I say it; without fully being able to varify other thought mechanisms that may have been used to pronounce the words mine is a request from me to waheguru ji to look at the expanse and realm of nature as it is; so that my seva to waheguru ji is up to waheguru ji. Only thing I can really say is humans think differently about orders and requests its for the human individual to understand there own positions in the cosmos of things at the point of seva.

That's deep, brother! Many thanks for the wise words that I'll contemplate on the plane on the way home today.