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The Sikh Thong

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by S|kH, Jan 27, 2005.

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  1. S|kH

    S|kH
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    There's a Sikh thong on cafeexpress.com with a Khanda placed on it.

    Sikhsangat is, of course, trying to get this banned.

    What do you guys feel of the clothing and if possible, the ban on what is purposely religious satire?
     
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  3. GushK

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    From what I've understood CafeExpress is just a site that allows individuals to sell anything they desire. I don't see there being anything satirical about what's happened here, just someone trying to make a quick buck without realising/totally ignoring the consequences of their actions. I found both the product and the attached description to be extremely insulting.

    For those who don't know anything about the Khanda, here's a little bit of info I've tried putting together. Apologies in advance for any mistakes or omissions.

    The Khanda has a very special significance within the Sikh faith and it's spiritual significance solidifies the basis and beliefs of a Sikh.It is comprised of 3 parts, the central Khanda (from which the name is derived), the Chakkar and the twin Kirpans.

    The Khanda, a large double edged dagger, signifies the divine ability to distinguish truth from falsehood. It is also used during the preparation of Amrit thus carries a very special meaning.

    The Chakkar, a circular weapon, signifies the eternity of God by having no beginning and no end. It exemplifies completeness, oneness and reminder to a Sikh to stay within the rule of God.

    The Twin Kirpans highlight the twin philosophy of Miri (Temporal) and Piri (Spiritual) sovereignty.
    They represent a Sikh's commitment to these goals, giving equal importance to both and at the same time going hand in hand with the role of a Sikh as a Sant/Sipahai (Warrior/Saint).

    These three put together amalgamate all aspects of a Sikh's belief and is regarded as a highly spiritual symbol which is not to be flouted or taken lightly. It's significance is such that it is placed on the Nishan Sahib (Sikh Flag). It can normally be seen mounted on a long steel pole at the entrance to Gurdwaras, overlooking the building.

    Recently, people have begun to misunderstand the importance of the Khanda (and Nishan sahib) and place it on cars, as tattoos, on clothes etc. You can see youth driving along during Vaisakhi waving the Nishan Sahib as a common flag with no respect or understanding as to it's importance. How far and modern we have become when what was once taken into battle, held high with the utmost respect and never allowed to drop, seems to have now fallen to the status of a fashion item.

    Gursharan Singh
     
  4. Neutral Singh

    Neutral Singh
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    Could you post the exact link... i am finding it hard to trace... :confused:
     
  5. GushK

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    Aman Ji

    The World Sikh Council have contacted CafeExpress and sucessfully negotiated to remove the item from sale, that's probably why you are having trouble tracking it down.


     
  6. muslim

    muslim
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    Ban it, and quick.
     
  7. S|kH

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    I believe this item was purely satirical and should not be banned. And I question why Sikhs take offense to it?

    My views go along the lines that this is just a mere image or painting of a khanda, and not a khanda itself. We do not idolize any pictures or paintings, whether they be of the Guru or of the 5 K's. Similary to how someone draws a painting on a piece of paper of a khanda, and someone puts it on a piece of cloth, what is the difference?

    Suppose someone puts a Khanda on a piece of paper and either burns the paper, or wrinkles it up and throws it away, should we be against them? Has the paper become "holy" simply because someone drew a Khanda on it?

    Do we idolize even the mere picture of a Khanda ? Is there no distinct difference between a picture and the actuality of a khanda?

    If a picture also symbolizes the same amount, can I not just print a picture of a kirpan and carry it around?

    I thought Guru Nanak's message was NOT to idolize pictures or things of that nature, but to keep in essence the reality of them.

    Now some may argue on when religious satire can be seen and should be banned. The Behzti play had the actual Guru Granth Sahib inside the what was called a "Gurdwara" where misconduct was taking place. The play abused actual, real kirpans, and other REAL K's.

    This, however, is a mere PICTURE placed upon a piece of clothing. How does this violate Sikhi? Aren't we violating Sikhi by claiming that the artist has mixed something holy (picture of a Khanda) with something unholy (a thong) ?

    Does a picture become Holy if only Guru Nanaks face crosses over the piece of paper? Do we hold his FACE to holiness? Do we hold the PICTURE of a Khanda to holiness? Or the actual elements of it?

    This would be a different issue, if the artist had actual chakkars and kirpans placed and thongs over them, or stepped on to show disrespect to the various elements of the Khanda.

    You also mentioned how earlier in the years the Flag and the Khanda were held dearly and never allowed to drop, and how today they are just a fashion symbol. What makes the Sikhs of earlier years any correct in holding a Flag and a Picture of a Khanda correct?

    Is a Flag not a piece of cloth? So if a Khanda can be placed on a Flag, that flag becomes holy? But, a Khanda can not be placed on a thong? Is this just personal bias towards what you might believe to be unholy (a thong).

    What is unholy and what is not? How does a flag become holy with a mere picture of a Khanda, but a thong not?

    When the Khanda was originally created, it was not just a picture of it that was passed around, but the actual elements which were held to either be one of the 5 K's or of high standards which had meaning. All the picture and idolizing of a flag with a khanda on it came well in the later years.

    I believe there was a reason as to why an actual kirpan is given during Amrit Sanchaar and not just a picture of it. We do not idolize statues or things which COULD resemble other pieces, we maintain the actual ITEM, which shows our dedication to faith. Theres no symbolic reasoning to a picture of a Khanda except that some people feel the need to hold it to utmost respect and idolize a painting. Besides, that is all that it is, just a mere painting of a Sikh artifact.

    I wonder what Guru Nanak would think of this issue.
     
  8. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    I agree with S|kH,

    What purpose does banning acheive except helps us inflate our own ego which has been 'hurt' due to someone printing a khanda on a thong. It is a tasteless choice and nothing more.

    Taliban banned lots of muslim symbols. They even destroyed the old Buddha statues. They banned music. Harmoniums and Tablas( boths' origin is afganistan) were destroyed in the name of Allah. And we all know what happened to them.

    Sikhi is not based on any symbols but ideas. If Sikhi teaches us to hold on to our symbols with tooth and nail for our 'salvation', then we should ban all sants and others putting khanda on their turbans, ban all diamond encrusted khandas around the necks.

    Now after having done that, lets pause for a moment and realise what we have achieved?

    We have achieved nothing but made Khanda a symbol that we want to worship as an Idol.

    The symbols given to us in Sikhi are gentle reminders of DO'S and DON'TS in Sikhi life, which should be etched on to our souls so that we can use them in our rehat to make a difference. They only mean something when we use them in our everyday life. Otherwise they are nothing but idols for us to worship.

    Tejwant
     
  9. GushK

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    Although I have heard sound points, you seem to be mixing up the idea of idolising something and respecting something. I would never matha tek to a Khanda but I treat it with the utmost respect. The image of a Khanda is just as important as the actual shasters because of what it represents and not just because of what it is made up of.

    Think for yourself, what do you deem to be respectful for the symbol that represents everything a Sikh stands and lives for?

    I feel the only places a Khanda should reside are on a Nishan Sahib or on a turban. Both places demand the highest respect. The Nishan Sahib for obvious reasons and the turban because it is the "crown" on a Sikh's head and represents his honour and dignity.

    Remember the Nishan Sahib was not just placed outside gurdwaras but was the also the duty of the "standard bearer", during battle, to keep aloft no matter the cost. There are several accounts of how important this was deemed to be, even by the Guru's themselves.

    What makes the Sikhs of earlier years any correct in holding a Flag and a Picture of a Khanda correct?
    I'd have to say it's their willingness to lay down thier lives, and keeping it held high, for what it represented rather than letting it get trampled on.

    When I was in the Sikh Society at uni, a point was made never to use the Khanda on posters, leaflets etc because we know they might get dropped stepped on etc. Not out of any "holiness" as you put it but out of respect for what it means to us. There are plenty of other symbols and ideas that identify a Sikh but which don't carry the special significance a Khanda does.
     
  10. S|kH

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    Respecting something to me, means to respect it in its original form.

    Not, a picture of it, when you begin to respect pictures and statues which symbolize something else that is achievable in its actual form, you begin to idolize.

    Do you believe then, all the pictures taken of the Guru Granth Sahibs should NEVER be discarded, because its just a picture, that clearly depicts our holiest book. They should never be thrown off? I mean, if we show respect to a picture that holds a Khanda which greatly symbolizes what a Sikh for, than why not a picture of the SGGS -- the book that DEFINES what a Sikh stands for?

    Your next statement says "You feel...", so your beginning to understand that this subject is something that is relative to ones feeling on it, and therefore should not be banned, as it holds no obsolete ground.

    Just as you say the only places you feel a Khanda is appropriate is either under the Nishaan Sahib or on the Turban, I could say the only place I feel it is appropriate is infront of the very innocence and virginity of the female body. Although, this is a very far-fetched example, there is no possible way to prove it wrong, hence limiting your reasoning to something that is relative to the individual human being.

    To me, a thong could symbolize the beauty and virgin power of the female body, the innonence held behind it. And to place a Khanda infront of it, would only mean the protection of all innocence to the females, besides we're a religion that promotes equality. The turban may symbolize different things to different people, but it was never a 5 K, and I certainly don't hold it to be one (of course this is a different topic thats been discussed). And, by placing the Khanda ontop of the turban you are placing the Khanda, a sikh symbol, ontop of something that is ONLY of cultural-value. That to me, limits the Khanda's scope, but shall I attempt to get that banned?

    So, would you want the Golden Temple stamps that the United States Postal Service is giving out banned also? Because it depicts a Gurdwara that is commonly referred to as the Sikhs holiest shrine? Because, those stamps will eventually be discarded, just like that thong, just like that poster/leaflet.

    Anways, what would you do with pictures of the Golden Temple or pictures of the Guru Granth Sahib, or paintings of the Guru?

    Just because some artist draws a Khanda, we must respect the piece of clothing its on, or respect the drawing itself? What about a little childs drawing of a Khanda, one could barely decipher that its a khanda, but should we definetly keep it out of respect?


    What about a Khanda on a normal piece of paper that is burned, or thrown away? A Necklace like Vaheguruseekr stated?

    When you show respect, you always show it to the original thing. Respecting something that merely symbolizes or is a painting or a drawing, is a form of idolization. When Hindus do aarti and perform other ritual deeds infront of a Statue of Krishna, they are not performing it directly to the statue, but to what the statue represents (Lord Krishna). They do not perform those deeds in order to appease the statue, but for the representation of it. To them, Lord Krishna statue represents everything they believe in. The way you refer to a Khanda and how you "respect" it is VERY similar to the way Hindus "respect" Lord Krishna's statues.

    Anyways these are just questions which arise in my mind, because when someone takes the necessary attempts to place a ban over something, they must provide logic that is CONSISTENT in every example and can not be cornered, only than is the ban applicable. If the ban has too many holes, its useless. So far, I see this ban as only something a select few would hate against due to personal bias.

    I, like you, was enraged when I saw the picture of the thong, and I thought why would anyone want to put a Khanda there? But, I sat down and thought about it, and came with the conclusion of to each their own.
     
  11. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh.

    This is akin to the Muslims raising hell when some pictorial resembling Allah in Arabic were printed on the soles of shoes...

    Sikhs in Punajb have always been protesting year in and year out pictures of GURUS, Khandas, Gurdwaras etc etc on Calendars for Companies that sell cigarettes, tobacco producers, liquor producers etc..

    When one company withdraws its calendar due to such pressure...another one some where else comes out with another type....and the vicious circle begins again..
    IMHO it is our own insecurity..OUR HOLY GURU is SHABAD GURU....pictures of Gurus, Sahibzadehs, gurdwaras, takhats, Gurmukhi Lipi in Newspapers, books etc, symbols on paper, cloth etc are NOT HOLY. We are ignoring the substance and going after the SHADOW.. Thats why we have people claiming to be DEH-DHAREE LIVING GURUS as opposed to our Shabad Guru, we have HOLY Sants and Holy BABAS, SATGURUS, MAHARAJS....conning our ignorant people AWAY from Shabad GURU and towards their OWN BODIES..Shaksee POOJA.."living MASTERS".... we have people Bowing down to, cleaning and wiping Nishan sahib Tharras..( People in a court bow to the Judge when he is Present...NOT to His EMPTY CHAIR when he is gone home ) But we Bow to GURU GRANTH JI and also to the EMPTY Manji sahib..after Sukhassan time because we beleive the manji sahib is also HOLY, to the Chaur, to the rumallas, etc as these have become HOLY !!!

    This si why recently during the Kaar sewa of Amritsar Darbar sahib the MUD and SLIME removed from the Sarovar was packed in plastic bags and taken away as HOLY MUD...people placed these plastic bags on manji sahibs, under chandnbi rumallas and others lined up to Matha TEK..People have been MATHA TEKKING in their THOUSANDS to the GANGA SAGAR brass vessel that Guru gobind Singh ji used once ro drink milk...people have been given/sold plastic bags containing HOLY WATER that is poured into this ganga sagar..and people beleive this to be AMRIT...capable of curing diseases, sickness etc etc.

    WE as a KAUM have LEFT the SHABAD GURU miles BEHIND on our Headlong MARCH TOWARDS THIS "holy" things...SHARDHA...SHADOWS....pictures paintings, etc etc... Lets GO back to the ROOTS..SHABAD GURU..Read Vichaar do kirt kamii, sewa simran, follow its TEACHINGS...

    Jarnail Singh
     
  12. Jay007

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    I Am Disgusted with the comments I have heard from fellow sikhs. Tell me something, when the cartoons printed of mohammed & allah were printed how did the muslims react???? It hurt there feelings thats right, and they wanted to protect there religon from abuse so they became strong together and fighted it and WON.... it was disrespectful to them as is the symbol of our khanda on a THONG!!!!!

    The thong was meant to cause anger in the sikh community because anyone printing a khanda on a thong knows exactly what that will do to the people who look up to this symbol.

    How dare you guys say its ok to print that. you guys are so thick. it was a meant to disrespect our religon, a ladies privates is looked at in a rude way, dirty, sex, etc, we all know.

    Absolute discusting. I love the khanda symbol it recongnises our faith and gives us strength. you sikhs who say its ok to do those things are FOOLS!!!!
    If you can say it never hurt when you read that then you have know feelings for our religon.
     
  13. max314

    max314
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    I don't get this whole idea of slapping bans on everything.

    It's an infringement on basic human rights.

    If you don't like something, then fine. Don't buy/look at/sell/talk about it. But don't prevent other people from engaging in whatever activities they want to, so long as it's not harmful to anyone.

    Going down this line of thought of restricting people in these ways raises questions about where to draw the line. I say we draw it right here.
     
  14. max314

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    I don't know what point you're trying to make here. Muslims do a lot of things...

    Yeah, you might find it 'hurts your feelings', but grow a backbone and put up with it. No-one was killed. It's just a logo on a piece of clothing, in the same way that people wear crucefixes on pendants without any religious connotations. I see shed loads of turban-wearing blokes hammering down their pegs and Glassy Junction...perhaps you should start putting them in shackles because their views on lifestyle don't agree with your own...

    They didn't win anything.

    The papers printed a cartoon of Mo with a bomb, and the Muslim community responded by setting fire to things.

    Way to prove a point...

    No, not unless you represent the Sikkh community.

    I have exam results that prove otherwise.

    Replace the words "are so thick" with "have a different opinion", and you'll be on the right track.

    Rude? Do you know what you even came out of? How's you're biology?

    And sex has never been condemned by gurbani. I don't see how anyone can live gristi jeevan without sex.

    It's Hindu/Indian culture that deems sex to be something "rude" and "dirty". Not Sikkhi.

    The only thing disgusting about this is your inability to spell the damn word.

    Oh, and here you can use the word "thick", by the way.

    It's three swords and a chakra. What it means or doesn't mean is different for everyone. Who are you to impose your own interpretation on other people? God? I don't think so.

    The only foolish Sikkhs are the ones who forget that their forefathers fought and died for other people to have the freedom to have opinions and express themselves with a similar freedom.

    Thanks Dad.
     
  15. Lionchild

    Lionchild
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    Sikhsangat is full of crazy members, however, some people will find this offensive. Personally, i won;t buy it :roll:
     
  16. Jay007

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    Max u certainly thought hard writing what you did you piece of [Moderators Note: Please refrain from using swear words]
    what do you know about pride?
    Lets imagine a picture of your mum on Mens Boxer/thong for sale by calvin Klein, how would you feel?
    Think we all know the answer.

    What so glassy junction is a pub, sikhs drink whats ur [Moderators Note: Please refrain from using swear words] point. where talking about damaging a religons pride hear not a Religous studies quoting commandments. So stick to the topic u[Moderators Note: Please refrain from using swear words] .

    If it wasn't offensive why did the company remove it from there site then! because they realised a mistake and recitifed it.


    **Rude? Do you know what you even came out of? How's you're biology?**
    yeh I came out of ur mum, you piece of [Moderators Note: Please refrain from using swear words] , well I got a 'B' in bio and im pretty sure you know [Moderators Note: Please refrain from using swear words] all compared to me.


    ***And sex has never been condemned by gurbani. I don't see how anyone can live gristi jeevan without sex.***

    Who said sex was wrong in the gurbani, I never... Read what I wrote properly

    **It's Hindu/Indian culture that deems sex to be something "rude" and "dirty". Not Sikkhi.***
    hindus do not see sex as dirty, stop making up your own [Moderators Note: Please refrain from using swear words] . no one sees sex as dirty. See your such a [Moderators Note: Please refrain from using swear words] you don't understand why I said that about a ladies private. we all know what goes on, but woman too let out waste and other stuff which is why they clean it etc. Obviously you wouldn't understand being that your Biology is shit and your a poof.

    What so your spelling is immaculate, We all here don't have to use spell checker and thesaurus like youself to reply to a topic.


    ***The only foolish Sikkhs are the ones who forget that their forefathers fought and died for other people to have the freedom to have opinions and express themselves with a similar freedom.***

    OH SHUT UP.... you say that above like you respect them! But you will also see pictures of the khanda on there turbans and flags, going to war with pride!!! I don't think they would have appreciated a khanda on a thong.
    Yes they fighted to give us freedom but where the [Moderators Note: Please refrain from using swear words] you get the idea of them fighting so we can express our opinions, you brainbox wanabe. you just make your own [Moderators Note: Please refrain from using swear words] up.

    So you say its ok to print a khanda on a thong fair enough thats your opinion you stick to it. When they print a picture or your mum and sisters on mens boxers remind me to buy one!!!!

    Out of respect we don't wear shoes in a gudwara, if you did it shows disrespect and you would get kicked out. so you still think its ok to print a symbol that defines a sikh and what millions of us look up to on a thong?

    I dare you to print a thong with a symbols of the muslim faith, a cross with jesus, a budhist symbol, jehovah's witness, Hindu, rastafari and put it on a webisite for sale then I will accept your debate.

    Chances are you prick , you will be in hiding and [Moderators Note: Please refrain from using rude words] yourself if you did because of the threats you will recieve. So its just you and a few others who thinks its ok.

    I know your going to come back with another shitty, mr I'm so smart remark. But please I dare you to make up those designs with religous symbols on a thong and see what reply you get!!

    you [Moderators Note: Please refrain from using swear words] !
     
  17. Jay007

    Jay007
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    check this site: sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/001057.html

    see the comments and how another design was taken off!
     
  18. kaur-1

    kaur-1
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    Lionchild it is not nice defaming members of the site you left. They are mostly young youths after all and still learning. We are all learning after all.!
     
  19. Lionchild

    Lionchild
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    Well there is alot of people who are fed up with that site, i won't go into alot of details, however, i finally had enough with the site, so i left. Yes, we are still learning!! :)
     
  20. max314

    max314
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    I didn't have to think too hard. I have an understanding and an opinion about the nature of freedom, and you obviously have your own.

    The difference is that I don't go screaming expletives in the face of someone whose opinions I don't agree with, and actually try and engage in a slightly more civlised manner of discussion. It would seem that the moderators agree.

    Not much. But I know that it's one of the Five Thieves. And the fuming nature of your post is evidence of that. Your suffering at the hands of the thieves of pride and rage is painfully apparent. I suggest you go back to basic: breath, and say "ek onkar".

    If this is your stab at making mum jokes, you're way off the mark.

    The difference is that my mother is a human being. She makes choices, and if she made the choice to appear on a garment of clothing, there's not much I can do to stop her if that's what would make her happy.

    But, with a logo, it's the people who make choices as to how they wish to use it. Person x decides to use it one way. Person y decides to use it in another. Neither has the right to force the other to concede to their opinion of the symbol. It's personal.

    Hopefully, you can see that your analogy was pretty ill-conceived.

    If a Sikkh man wearing a turban and sporting a beard knocking back whiskies at the local boozer isn't your idea of "damaging religious pride" (i.e. how people outside the community perceive us), then I'm obviously talking to the wrong person about this.

    Did you know that on my sister's birthday a few years ago, we invited a DJ - a white bloke - to jockey at our home? He saw a picture of Guru Nanak we had up on the wall and said "oh, so you guys wear turbans! You guys drink a lot, don't you?".

    How's that for your "religious pride" and staying on topic?

    No, because people of a particular mindset spoke out in majority against it. Luckily, we live in a Western society that's had the crap scared out of it, and won't dare tread on any toes that might be linked with racial offence or offending minority groups.

    Plus, people are like sheep, anyway.



    I always knew I had a brother my parents weren't telling me about! Where you been all these years? Ya know you never call and you never write, you sonofa...

    Whatcha want, a frickin' medal?

    Why don't you read what you wrote properly and save me the time:

    "...it was a meant to disrespect our religon, a ladies privates is looked at in a rude way, dirty, sex, etc, we all know."

    Linking in a religious symbol with undergarments is "looked at in a rude way" because "sex" is "dirty" and - apparently - "we all know it", which is why it's a "disrespect to our religion".

    Like there's someone out there with a camera and a laptop who has nothing better to with his time, other than hatching evil schemes to disrespect Sikkhi in any little way he can :roll:

    Notice how I talked about "Hindu/Indian culture", and not religion.

    I don't know your own social situation, but whenever I go to the houses of Hindu friends, I've often seen things reminiscent of those "this dal is fantastic!" scenes out of Goodness, Gracious Me. It is a cultural thing, and has jack-all to do with religion.

    Dude, if you're gonna contradict yourself, at least try and make it a little less obvious.

    And you say that I'm going off topic.

    :shock:...what are you saying?

    The only thing "shit" about this whole thing is your sense of humour. Or lack of it. That's the last time I make a joke that's too complicated for a six year-old to understand...

    I wasn't aware that a webcam was a attached to my computer.

    Mm...I see. You make an interesting argument. Yes, I see what angle you're coming from. Very perceptive.

    Are you saying that the Sikkhs of the past did notfight "so we can express our opinions"? Do you know why Guru Teg Bahadur gave up his life? Do you know why the Singhs of Guru Gobind went to war and sacrificed their lives without any fear? Do you know what the purpose of being a Sikkh in a world full of nothing but intolerance and hatred for anyone who doesn't think the same as they do...an evil that you yourself are guilty of with this very post?

    If the answer to any of the above is "yes", then I suggest you seriously think before making your next post. If make one at all.

    My mum and my sisters have nothing to do with an inert, man-made symbol that is entitled to be interpreted and used depending on how particular people see fit.

    If you don't like the idea of a particular symbol on a piece of underwear, then don't buy it. Just like I don't like or buy Robbie Williams CDs. It's there is people want it, and it's not in anyone's right to prevent someone from purchasing clothes with images they find appealing.

    Your examples really aren't all that well thought out, are they?

    If "millions of us" have a particular opinion, does that mean that one person with a different one deserves to be persecuted for it? Tell me, where are the Sikkh principles in that?

    From the length and fury of this post, I'd say you've accepted my debate anyway.

    Besides, selling clothes just isn't my thing. I much prefer selling independent movies, but that's another matter :wink:

    "Threats" of peoples' intolerance to put up with people who don't agree with their views. Angry people. Ignorant people. People like you.

    Yeah, coz I've got nothing better to do than to sit around making underwear. We know what will happen, because the world is full of fanatics like you who are too insecure about their own beliefs to allow anyone else's beliefs be expressed if they are contrary to their own.

    I love you too.
     

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