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The Magical Hat

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by BhagatSingh, Apr 16, 2009.

  1. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
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    Epepke makes an ignorant statement about the turban and kachera that a fellow Atheist finds offensve. This is my reponse. The smiley's have been translated from that forum into this one.


    Feel free to add more or to simply comment or criticize.
    :welcome:
     
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  3. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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  4. spnadmin

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    Re: The Magical Hat AKA The Turban

    See the book by G. Mann a retired physicist from the L Livermore Laboratory in CA. "My Memories of Old Punjab."

    He has a chapter at least on the turban in history and also its significance during his lifetime in Punjab. One thing I remember is that before the days of water purification farmers would use the loose end of the turban as a filter. They could quench their thirst by covering their mouths with the cloth and drink water from a pond through it. That way anything that was dangerous would be filtered out.

    He also reports that a man with a beard and turban was always regarded by police (this is under the Raj during his childhood) with more respect than a man with a beard, cut hair, and NO turban. A man with a beard and no turban was viewed as borderline, probably a gangster but definitely a Bad Mash of some kind, definitely unreliable, and someone to be watched.
     
  5. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
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    Re: The Magical Hat AKA The Turban

    Simple filteration of water, that's quite interesting.

    We see in ancient cultures that a man with no beard could simply be not trusted. because theives and criminals were shaved and put to jail.
    Today its the other way around, a man with a beard is seen to be less trustworthy.
     
    #4 BhagatSingh, Apr 17, 2009
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2009
  6. pk70

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    Re: The Magical Hat AKA The Turban


    Bhagat Singh ji

    You always ask others to give data like in one of Singh ji's post you asked him to provide data of Restaurants where employees do not wash hands, I am asking you by the same token before accusing people with turbans as less trustworthy, give me data, as you know Sikhs are very less in World population; otherwise you must admit you are nothing but blind accuser.:rolleyes:
     
  7. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
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    Re: The Magical Hat AKA The Turban

    Oops! I meant it in a sense that "Today its the other way around, a man with a beard is seen to be less trustworthy." I mean it more generally not applying to individuals like you and me. We know beards should not be a factor in determining trustorthiness. I apologise for this confusion.
    That simply comes from my own experience taht there seems to be a trend with increased facial hair and how much people trust (the people with facial hair) initiallly. I do not have statistical evidence that shows that. Although, there maybe some evidence that exists.

    you say, "I am asking you by the same token before accusing people with turbans as less trustworthy"
    I realize that I changed my statement (and the apparent meaning of it) but from what I said (and apparently meant) in my previous statement, I did not make that accusation.
    Also the word "seems" automatically implies uncertainty.
     
  8. spnadmin

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    Re: The Magical Hat AKA The Turban

    Bhagat ji

    Thanks for rewording your statement. I understood that you were not making an accusation against those who wear turbans. I think you wear one yourself. You meant that the social acceptance of turbans has changed and not for the better. I am not aware of statistics to prove either side of the argument. However this study was published some months ago on Sikhnet. It is hair-raising, frightening. It demonstrates that there are many people in the west who in complete bigotry rising from even greater ignorance equate the turban with danger and evil. Read this and you will go away very upset. At least I did.

    Study suggests "turban effect" as a source of "Islamophobia"

    July 2nd, 2008 Source: www.canada.com

    http://www.{url not allowed}/files/news/2008/July/Turban.jpgA Muslim-style turban is perceived as a threat, according to a new study, even by people who don't realize they hold the prejudice, dubbed "the turban effect" by researchers.

    Research volunteers played a computer game that showed apartment balconies on which different figures appeared, some wearing Muslim-style turbans or hijabs and others bare-headed. They were told to shoot at the targets carrying guns and spare those who were unarmed, with points awarded accordingly.

    People were much more likely to shoot Muslim-looking characters - men or women - even if they were carrying an innocent item instead of a weapon, the researchers found.

    "Whether they're holding a steel coffee mug or a gun, people are just more likely to shoot at someone who is wearing a turban," says author Christian Unkelbach, a visiting scholar at Australia's University of New South Wales. "Just putting on this piece of clothing changes people's behaviour."

    Unkelbach largely blames one-sided media portrayals for the bias.

    The results would almost certainly be the same if this study was conducted in Canada, says Mohamed Elmasry, national president of the Canadian Islamic Congress.

    "I'm hoping that Canadian Muslims one day become invisible," says Elmasry. "As such, Canadians will treat them like any others."

    Islamophobia - "latent" before 9/11 - is on the rise, he says, but there is very little research on the issue in Canada.

    The new study "does confirm our biggest fear that there is discrimination and prejudice within our society, and unfortunately people don't recognize it or don't admit it," says Salam Elmenyawi, president of the Muslim Council of Montreal.

    "Sometimes they really don't know that it does exist."

    Beyond a turban or hijab, someone's name, skin colour or a long beard may also identify them as a Muslim and make them a target of prejudice, he says. Elmenyawi wears a head-covering and long beard and says he struggles between recognizing that negative stereotypes exist and not becoming "paranoid" that he might fall prey to them.

    In fact, the Australian study, which will be published in an upcoming issue of the Journal of Experimental Social Psychology, confirmed that people don't even realize they hold these biased views. When the true intention of the experiment was revealed, Unkelbach says participants insisted they were not prejudiced and must have reacted differently from everyone else.

    "The most common response was, 'I'm sure I didn't show that effect,'" he says. "They're uncomfortable and I believe them - people are not doing this willingly. If they could, they would control that. Here, people are almost the victims of what they are fed by their environment."

    A quick sampling of news items related to Muslims and the Middle East confirmed this, he says, with a focus on violence and terrorism almost obliterating more balanced stories about the culture and people.

    "If everything about Middle Easterners is associated with terrorism, people tend to form stereotypes in their head," confirms Rima Wilkes, a sociology professor studying media at the University of British Columbia.

    Even fictional media feed these biases, she says. One study showed that movies tend to feature "socially acceptable" villain stereotypes that have evolved over time, from evil Germans in the post-war years to vaguely Muslim bad guys more recently. Even swarthy, pixelated video game adversaries send the message that "ethnic others are bad," Wilkes says.

    Shannon Proudfoot
    Canwest News Service

    Source Study suggests "turban effect" as a source of "Islamophobia" | SikhNet
     
  9. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
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    Aad ji that is scary but THIS is just as scary if not more scary... if what he claims is true.
    I realize by posting this I might be going off topic but this is similar to the situation Turbaned people are in.

    Yes, I wear a turban, a dhumalla specifically, and I do have uncut hair, and its because I love to wear one and don't just wear it because someone told me! I think I should put that bolded and underlined in my signature for other forum members. :D

    You are correct. The video has been removed. aad0002
     
    #8 BhagatSingh, Apr 17, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 17, 2009
  10. pk70

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    Thanks Bhagat Singh Ji for rewording your statement and still I have a difficulty to accept it is as an acceptable truth.
    There are some in this world, who are ignorant to the core of their hearts. They watch one incident and generalize it. How many are there though? I have been living in US (known for its being ignorant generally about the rest of the world and infected by a self assumed thinking that the U.S is the world, outside there is nothing) After having said that let me share with you that I have encountered such ignorant that can be counted on fingers.. In context of beard and Turban, all Americans are not like this. I have enjoyed well extreme respect on their hands that are not ignorant. This is not a new thing. In India regardless where a Sikh goes, his appearance is targeted for jokes (That is not ignorance) but while in dealing in social or financial matter, the Sikhs earn a great respect. If statistics is taken, there wouldn’t be many who would draw a line between clean shaven and Sikhs with beard and Turban in context of “trust”, I feel its matter of mental growth to accept all as brothers and sisters. Bhagat Singh ji is saying (as per his reworded statement) in essence that the world thinks that way which is questionable. In Africa I taught for some time but never ever faced any kind of this low behavior. If it is linked to 911 especially in the western countries, still I doubt it that the statement of Bhagat Singh ji is true hundred percent, and I don’t feel it is scary either. It’s a factual garbage that comes out due to eternal mental capacities.:D
     
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  11. Huck_Finn

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    Statistics can be made to lie about anything !
     
  12. BhagatSingh

    BhagatSingh Canada
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    That's an interesting question you bring up and I do realize that the statement I made may come from a mixture of my experiences and confirmation bias.



    Ok I think I should have been explicit. I meant here in Canada. I realize in India Sadhus and others such may be seen as MORE trustworthy.


    Yes of course, its not true hundred percent. But it does come from this sort of thinking that beard is essentially hiding a man's face. Ponder over that and oyu might see that I am not getting this from 911 or anything like that.

    Out of curiousty, do you have a beard? and a turban perhaps?

    I have no idea what this means. please explain.

    REMOVED BY POSTER
     
    #11 BhagatSingh, Apr 17, 2009
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2009
  13. pk70

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    It’s a factual garbage that comes out due to eternal mental capacities (quote Pk70 ).


    I have no idea what this means. please explain.(quote Bhagat Singh ji)



    Here is the explanation word by word
    Factual= with facts
    Garbage= lacking decency ( in context of treating people with special appearance as not trust worthy or play jokes or to be biased in any way
    Comes out= is displayed by some people
    Due to= because of
    Eternal= forever as History conveys, it was done in the past and it continues and it will be
    Mental capacities= mental capacities of those people who cannot overcome their ignorance, or biased behavior
    :)
     
  14. spnadmin

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    Bhagat Singh ji

    Amarsanghera ji said in the above post that "statistics can be made to lie about any thing..."

    To which you replied "And yet religion is made..."


    After debating whether to reply to you I decided I needed to. We are in a thread entitled "The Magical Hat" which we find out means "dastar." You have said in so many words that religion is made to lie about any thing (Simply putting in three dots ... instead of spelling it out does not give you an escape route as far as I am concerned. It actuallly makes things more troublesome.)

    Where does this leave us? With the impression that you want to minimize the beliefs and convictions of people, who first took the opening post of the thread at face value, and then found themselves on the defensive about their religion and turbans.

    If they do not want to fence and joust with you, then they can do only one thing. Simply not post on the thread and allow your opinions to prevail unchallenged. But when they do respond they are put to the test: Can and will they parry and fence with each and every word and phrase? Will they remain standing through match of wits and words?

    Is that your intention? Is the point to engage various individuals in the SPN Linguistic Tournament of Word Play and Religion? The mission of the tournament could be to test the credibility of religious belief by testing contestants on their linguistic endurance. Sorry, it comes off as rude and disrespectful when a religious tenet or practice becomes the target of facetious language. Even when you are being totally serious, it doesn't look like that. Even though I know personally that you value Sikh beliefs and traditions, others perceive idle challenges.

    Please question yourself. What is your heart-felt purpose in having these discussions? I could say all of this by private message, but there are forum members who deserve to hear your answer.
     
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  15. spnadmin

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    Calling a turban a "magical hat" is a perfect example of what I am trying to tell you above.
     
  16. Archived_Member4

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    bhagat finish this sentence off, since we all know you'll deny anything a member fills in the blank here.

    Sangat ji

    Wearing a Dastar and the 5 k's for some become useless since they speak out against them. They only wear it for show and/or have a personal gain from wearing them. Could be monetary, and/or winning more votes. In either case they are disrespecting Guru Sahib and are aware of their cunning actions.

    For someone to call the Dastar a magical hat is due to there ignorance or hate for the Khalsa Panth. This is only a discussion forum and people can say whatever they want without facing consequences. If you warn these type of people they just feel even more inclined to do it. Let Guru Sahib deal with them or if you know them personally, sit down and talk to them, and see what they have to say:D

    There is no point on wasting time on these pointless people or there pointless discussions. There only here to disrespect Guru Sahib.
     
  17. Huck_Finn

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    there is never progress without facing the current on your chest.
     
  18. BhagatSingh

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    Aad jii I have to admit I did not realize this, I do apologise. Thanks me showing me I shouldn't have said, and should not say something like that, at least in the threads of this nature.
    I realize that my comment defeats the purpose of starting the thread. So essentially, I am shooting myself in the foot.
    I removed my comment because of those reasons.
    Couldn't agree more.
     
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  19. spnadmin

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    Bhagat ji

    Thanks for taking the point seriously and thinking about it. Guru's blessing on you.
     
  20. Huck_Finn

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    Only Thee

    That I want thee, only thee---let my heart repeat without end.
    All desires that distract me, day and night,
    are false and empty to the core.

    As the night keeps hidden in its gloom the petition for light,
    even thus in the depth of my unconsciousness rings the cry
    ---`I want thee, only thee'.

    As the storm still seeks its end in peace
    when it strikes against peace with all its might,
    even thus my rebellion strikes against thy love

    and still its cry is

    ---`I want thee, only thee'.
     
  21. BhagatSingh

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    Ooh, how could I forget this??

    Turbans are attention-getters
    - have a meeting? Wear a turban, you will stick out like a tree in the middle of the prairies. But use this to your advantage and be confident about it. People will remember you better than anyone else there.
     

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