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Tall tales masquarading as "history" must be discarded

Discussion in 'History of Sikhism' started by Gyani Jarnail Singh, Feb 12, 2005.

  1. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    How the “ Taksali Gyanis” make their fortunes and make us fools..

    Tall tale of Baba Budha Ji’s Var/Sraap..and Birth of Guru Hargobind Ji….



    Who hasn’t heard of the Sakhi that Guru Kian nu Bhaajrra paiyaan te Baba Budha Ji kolon var ate sraap dovenh leake hee Guru hargobind Jee da janam hoiyah ?? This tall tale is a favourite of the taksali Gyanis and Babas who come visiting Gurdwaras worldwide and spread misinformation/misconception.



    IS there a “concept” of Vaar and Sraap in Gurbani ?? Can anyone quote even one single line from GURBANI to show that Gurmatt believes in Vaars and Sraaps. The clear answer is NO….but does that worry these parcharaks….not at all. They continue to bamboozle the sangat with these blatant LIES and at the end say “ AAKHO SATNAM SRI WAHEGURU”….as if the false story they just related is Dhur Ki bani.



    Lets examine a few of these misconceptions. Just as the Balak Hargobind was allegedly “poisoned” by the maid by putting poison on her Breasts….so did a maid of Bhagwaan Krishan…just as Guru Nanak Ji was “shaded” by a Cobra Snake..so was Prophet Mohammed. Physically there is no snake hood so large as to be able to shade a sleeping human face….and can a snake hood keep a person “cool” enough to continue sleeping ?? Bhai Santokh Singh says the snake that shaded Guru ji was WHITE…an albino cobra of this size is an absolute RARITY ?? same snake that shaded Mohammed?? Or is the story copied ?? or someone trying to pass on "divintiy" to Guru Ji ??

    Then we have the tall tale of Bhai Joga Singh and Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Here we have such a SIDKEE SINGH, who is so full of Pyaar that he leaves his lavaan half way in order to obey Guru Ji’s Command..but then this Sidkee singh with so much pyaar..falls prey to KAAM..IF at all Joga Singh was so full of Kaam then he could have delayed Obeying Guru Ji’s orders..and complete his lavaan and take his legally wedded wife to bed, satisfy his kaam and then proceed to Anandpur…and GURU JI is shown to be “physically” present in Anandpur Sahib as well as at Peshawar guarding the prostitute’s den. GURU JI is “nodding” off to sleep ( IN FULL DARBAR AT ANADPUR SAHIB) as he stayed awake the whole night !!! ( IN PESHAWAR) ???



    Guur Ji is leaving Anandpur Sahib…his family is separated, all his valuable writings, the product of many years and 52 kavis, a lot of wealth etc etc are all LOST in the Sarsa River, BUT GURU ji doesn’t SHOW a miracle by being at “two places”…HE stays in ONE PLACE… When Guru Ji leaves the Chamkaur Gharri, the army commanders of Nawab of malerkotlas nabi khan and ghani khan come to His aid….GURU JI again doesn’t “disappear” but stays in one physical BODY.. for helping Guru ji, Kotla Nihuang Khaan and his companions are later caught by the Moghul forces and buried up to their necks and then wild dogs are let loose to tear their heads alive…GURU JI again DOESN’T APPEAR to help them in any way… The ONE and ONLY time Guru Ji does this “miracle” is when the Tale has to show how Joga Singh is at once sucha good sidkee pyara singh and then in an instant he is a bad kaami person..and GURU JI has to be in TWO PLACES just to SAVE JOGA SINGH !!!



    Now we come to SRAAP of baba Budha Ji… according to this taksali Ithihass..Guru hargobind Ji had to LEAVE AMRITSAR and go to Vaddali. Then WHAT is the REASON GURU ANGAD JI left Kartarpur to Go to KHADOOR ?? What reason for GURU Amardass Ji to leave KHADOOR and go to GOINDWAAL ?? And GURU RAMDASS JI left Goindwaal to go to AMRITSAR ?? Then GURU Arjun Ji left AMRITSAR to go to Kartarpur Jalandhar and Taran Taran and …following this TRADITION Guru hargobind JI left Amrtisar to go to Vaddali. ALL the GURUS did such to OPEN up NEW CENTRES of SIKHI….certainly not due to some SRAAP of baba budha Ji. ??



    WHAT does GURBANI say about Vaar sraaps ? NO one can Do anything !!!



    Bhai matt koi janno kisee keai Kicchh hath hai SABH KAREH KRAYAH..

    Jara mara taap sirat saap SABH HAR KE VASS HAI koi lagg na sakeh bin hark e laiyah……aang 168 Mh 4



    AAng 418 guru nanak ji says..Koi mughal na hoah andha kineh na parchaa laiyah..

    ( the pandits and mullahs holy men had told the Lodhis that they would SRAAP the Babar forces to make them BLIND, close their cannons… Guur Ji tells what really happened !!!



    Guru Arjun Ji himself states in His Gurbani..Manukh ke tek birthee sabh jaan.. DEVAN KO EKEH BHAGWAAN … then this same GURU JI “asks” his wife to go to Baba Budha Ji for a SON ?? Do you now understand why ALL BABAS/SANTS “OFFER SONS” to anyone who wants one ?? When In fact even GURU NANAK JI didn’t interfere with nature/Waheguru Ji to “give” his sister bebe nanki a “child/son”..she died CHILDLESS . Can anyone really believe that “bebe Nanaki, who loved her Brother nanak so much didn’t ask him for a son ?? or Nanak ji didn’t realize how much she longed for a son/child ??...”Karan karan PRABH ek hai..doosar nahin koi… …Mangoh RAAM te SABH THOK….. JHOOTHA mangagn je koi manggeh…. ISNT a “Manng” for a SON a Jhootha manggan ?? can GURU JI descend to this jhootha manggan ??

    Avar updeseh aap na kareh ??are we accusing Guru Ji of this ?? Can OUR GURU JI advise US to ask from WAHEGURU..but then He himself go to baba budha Ji ?? impossible…



    IT is high time we release ourselves from all these anti gurmatt anti gurbani tall tales masquarding as “history”..and stop giving money to these parcharaks who have nothing except these juicy tall tales to relate and Boloh Satnam Sri Waheguru every few minutes.



    Jarnail Singh
     
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  3. ravisingh

    ravisingh
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    A wonderful post Gyani ji!

    Thank-you, I couldn't agree more!

    I have a question for you. A sincere question that I hope that you will be able to help me understand. What do you think about the 2 Gurdas Jis? Both of the same name both writing varan? I always thought that this was somewhat suspect. Do you think it is plausible that 2 people of the same name both essentially played the same role in Sikhi? Bhai Gurdas Ji (the first one) wrote "Waheguru gurmanthur hai jap a homay koi" (Var 13) the basis for the use of the Sikh word for God (the term "waheguru" does not show up in the Guru Granth sahib except in the Bhatta ki Saviya and only then as a direct reference to the guru not to God --the gurus never once used this term in the Gurbani that they wrote). I have heard that Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Arjun dev Ji proclaimed that his varan are the "key" to the Guru Granth sahib. Why was his bani then not included in the Adi Granth? Or for that matter even mentioned in the Adi Granth?

    Bhai Gurdas ji (II) in Var 41 writes that "great is Guru Gobind Singh who became both guru and sikh". This gurdas ji also wrote mariyada (in Var 41, 15th pauri he wrote that Sikhs must wear a kashera for example).

    I am not trying to stir the pot or anything I have sincerely wondered about this for quite some time and have asked other learned sikhs without sucess. I am hoping with your (or other Gursikhs in this forum) indepth knowledge of Sikhi you that you might be able to shed some light. Thank-you.

    Ravi Singh
     
  4. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa Waheguru ji Ki fateh.

    Dera RaviSingh ji,

    There are indeed TWO different Bhai gurdass Jis...One was the Original Bhai gurdass ji, nephew of Guru Arjun Ji who was the SCRIBE of (Guru) Granth Ji written by Guur Arjun Ji. This Granth is called AAD Granth ( Kartarpuri bir) and it is NOT GURU because it doesnt contain the Bani of Guru Teg bahadur Ji.

    This Bhai Gurdass Ji was an accomplished poet in his own right..very educated in Farsi/sasnkrit/and familar with most of the nearly 17 languages used in Gurbani. He wrote HIS VARAAN and KABITS..using the Adahk, BINDIS, TIPPIS etc which are Nasal Sounds..BUT GURU JI in HIS Infinite Wisdom wrote Gurbani WITHOUT these Bindis, adhaks, tippis, etc. This was done to Keep GURBANI separate from ordinary poetry and punjabi language literature. However since the SAME WORDS are used in Bhai gurdass Ji's Varaan and Kabits, and these are Punjabi language Literary works and NOT GURBANI, and Bhai gurdass Ji used all the Bindis, tippis, adhaks etc in the CORREXT PLACES... this shows BY PROXY how we are to PRONOUNCE these words. ( when they occur in GURBANI).and that is WHY the varaan of Bhai gurdass Ji are the KEY to GURBANI. Secondly Bhai gurdass Ji in his writings ususally tackles the same subjects in Gurbani and offers wider explanations of concepts etc according to his own budh and gurmatt status.

    Later on When linguistics like Prof sahib Singh of Guru Granth Darpan fame studied Gurbani and found that it had a Very UNIQUE GRAMMAR of its own, and everythign was all in perfect order, and bindis.adhaks, tippis etc HAD to be Pronounced ven if thery are not written down ( or the MEANINGS will not tally)..it became clear why Bhai gurdass Ji's writings are KEY to gurbani.

    Unfortunately, the entire Bhai gurdass ji's writings are not authentic...as time went along there must have been adulterations amde..therefore the ULTIMATE TOUCHSTONE of authenticity is GURBANI in the Guru Granth Ji which due to its Unique Grammar, writing style, numberings, totals, etc put in place By GURU ARJUN JI, NO ADULTERATIONS, CHANGES etc could take place. So where ther is doubt..Bhai gurdass Ji's writings must be COMPARED to GURBANI...if they Both agree, it is authentic...BUT if Gurbani says one thing and "Bhai Gurdass Ji" says another.... then GURBANI IS CORRECT.

    Following quote taken from www.tapoban.org gurmat articles has info on the SECOND BHAI GURDASS who is a "imposter".

    ""A bird’s eye view of Sikh history shows that from the very beginning of the Sikh movement there have been some who worked to interpolate into the holy verses of the Sikh Gurus. Quite a number of versifiers had cropped up even during the lifetime of the Gurus who would write verses in the style of the Gurus and would mislead the Sikhs. Even in Guru Arjan Dev’s compilation of the holy scripture – Adi Granth Sahib, there appear verses carrying Mahalla sixth and seventh in some birs. The fact is that the sixth and seventh Gurus never wrote a single line for inclusion into the holy Granth.

    From the very onset, Brahmanical influences have always remained hostile to the Sikh movement. A few instances would show how with this influence on people in general, some subverts were at work to subvert the movement from within. The move was so subtle that truth could not be sifted for long. Perhaps it took a century or two to find out. For instance, there was one Koer Singh who wrote Gur-Bilas Patshai Dasmi in 1751, 43 years after the demise of Guru Gobind Singh. He was a Vaishnav Hindu – Bishan Chand. He admits that he was a Sikh only by name. He invented a myth that before the creation of the Khalsa Guru Gobind Singh worshipped mythical Hindu goddess Durga and that he was blessed by other mythical gods and goddesses of the Hindus. He propagated that all Gurus of the Sikhs were in fact, avtars – incarnation of Lord Vishnu. This is pure blasphemy as we know from the study of Gurbani. He did not stop short there. He wrote a ballad (vaar) in praise of Guru Gobind Singh under the pen name Bhai Gurdas Singh and had it added as vaar 41 of Bhai Gurdas who was contemporary of the Sikh Gurus (from third to sixth Guru). This vaar 41 mislead the Sikhs in believing that Khalsa was created by Guru Gobind Singh to put an end to the religion of Prophet Mohammed. This goes against the basic principles of the Sikh Gurus (ref: Pauri 16 and 17).

    Another mischievous attempt to subvert the Sikh doctrine was made by a Brahmin who was a ‘Sikh’ in name only. Kesar Singh Chhibbar wroteBansawalinama(familytree of the tenth Guru in 1769



    In that, he states, that the Sikh struggle was nothing but anarchy. He could not reconcile to the inclusion of lower castes into the fold of Khalsa. He also states that goddess Durga blessed and ordered Guru Gobind Singh to create Khalsa Panth to fight against the Mughal demons. It is all a hang-over of the Hindu way of thinking.

    These attempts to subvert the Sikh doctrine are not confined to some distant past either. To our shock in the 21st century, it was discovered that within Gur-Bilas Patshahi Chhevin, there contained many utterances that were considered by many a Sikh scholars to be contrary to the Sikh theology. The book has since been banned. It takes centuries to sift truth from myths. "

    I hope this helps.

    Jarnail Singh


     
  5. Neutral Singh

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    Fascinating and enlightening stuff Gyani ji !! Please keep it up and please let the sikh history unfold to ignorant people like myself slowly and steadily. :)

    Warmest Regards
     
  6. amrit

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    Is 'Gur Bilas P. 6' banned, or is just an edition, which is edited by G. Joginder Singh Vedanti, banned?
     
  7. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Dear Amrit Ji,

    This is a rather "technical" question.

    IMHO it is contra to Sikhi and Gurmatt to "ban" books, "burn" books etc to show ones displeasure....so I DONT AGREE with any book banning whether it is of the Books of Bhai kala Afghana or jathedar Vedanti ( BTW Jathedar Vedanti was "forced" to BAN his own book when kala Afghana exposed the many misconceptions in the Gurbilas patshahi chhevin..)

    The Gurbilas Patshahi Chhevin is a "histroical" source...many editions by various editors have come out at various times..one of the earliest and best was done by Giani Inder Singh Gill of MALAYSIA in the early 1950s. The Basic Editing of the "Vedanti Edition" was also done in the MALAYSIAN GURDWARA SENTUL where Prof Amarjit Singh Ji served as Granthi for some time back and then published when he went back to Punjab.

    Rather than "ban" a book or its particular editions, Sikh Scholars must identify the errors and UNTRUTHS, and Gross Insults to our Guru sahibaan and Anti Gurmatt anti gurbani, anti sikh history elements and eliminate them . by all means keep the rest if it is as per gurmatt.

    Love for all

    jarnail Singh.
     
  8. ravisingh

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    Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
    Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

    Thank-you very much Gyani Ji!

    You have put an issue that has bothered me for over 12 years to rest. All those that I have ever asked this question to have not been very pleased with it (as if even asking the question was to go against Sikhi) and could not answer it sufficiently. I find that asking such "critical" questions to some Gursikhs is not welcome and often leads to anger on the part of the person that I asked --so I have kept this question to myself for quite some time.

    I have heard the Durga story before as well and of course discounted it as rubbish. However, I have also heard that Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji cut the heads off of goats with the Punj Pyare before as well (as opposed to the version where he does not and takes them to the tent it is left a mystery but assumed that he did in fact cut their heads off). Quite frankly, it doesen't matter to me either way but I wonder what you think. Clearly this is not as an important of an issue as the Bhai Gurdas Ji issue as the importance of the Sikh name for God (Waheguru) and both Bhai Gurdas jis' (perceived) central role in Sikh theology far outweigh Sakhis. But I wonder what your take is on it nonetheless as well as other rather questionable tales (Guru Nanak and the blood and milk from the bread, Guru Nanak and Balle Kandari/Punja Sahib, Baba Deep Singh fighting with his head on his hand, etc.).

    I always thought that reasonableness and truth were more important in Sikhi and such "miracles" played in no part in Sikhi? I know that the miracle issue was covered in another thread but I am really asking what you (and other Gursikhs in the forum) think of 3 issues: 1. Can the sakhis have the same impact if the miraclous aspects of them are removed 2.Is any aspect of Sikhi reliant on such miraclous events 3.What is the Sikh view of miracles in general especially in light of the fact that other religions [notably Christianity and judaism] rely on them heavily and sikhs are supposed to be tolerant/respect other faiths as equally plausible means of acheiving salvation/moksha/nirvana, etc.

    Incidentally, I believe that books that can be considered hate literature (anything that endorses hate and violence against minority groups) should be banned but all others should not be.

    Thank-you for your thoughtful response Gyan Ji and others!

    Take care,

    Ravi Singh

    Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
    Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
     
  9. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    Waheguru ji ka Khalsa Waheguru ji ki fateh.

    Guru Piarae Ravi Singh Ji,

    Glad to be of help.
    Sikhi is such a wonderful religion that there is nothing to hide or be ashamed of or angry about. imho those who get "angry" when asked questions are suffering from an "inferiority complex" in that they feel such "embarassing questions" should be kept under cover...akin to the Victorian beleif that "children should be seen and not heard" This is the 21st century and QUESTIONING is actively encouraged...and Sikhi Gurmatt is one religion that can stand the scrutiny of the most powerful microscope and still come out tops. We dont have to rely on dubious "miracles" to "prove" that our Gurus were "divine"/"Prophets"...just a cursory reading of Gurbani will convince any sceptic that this is divine .

    Now for "miracles"...Jesus is said to have revived one man Lazarus from the "dead". Well and fine..BUT the 64 million dollar question is....Where is Lazarus TODAY ? Didnt he "die" once more after being revived ?? Then this was just a TEMPORARY "miracle" was it not.??

    What "miracle" did Guru nanak Bring about ?? When GURU NANAK came on the scene...it was said to be a very DARK AGE..the Kings instead of being JUST were BUTCHERS...the Judges, the Kazis..instead of dispensing justice were taking bribes and committing injustices, the common man had forsaken his language/culture/religion to accept foreign domination where he was worse than the worst SLAVE. He couldnt wear a DASTAAR on his head, He couldnt keep even a "knife" as ONLY the KAZI was authorised to slaughter animals for food, He couldnt ride a horse, he couldnt "keep" a wife ( if anyone wanted his wife/daughter..he was obliged to gift her away)..LIFE was one Hell Hole.

    GURU NANAK LIFTED this DREGS of DOWNTRODDEN HUMANITY who couldnt even kill a chicken....into the FINEST WARRIORS on Earth that drove the Foreign INVADERS back to KABUL..and closed the Khyber Pass forever..A SINGLE KHALSA could fight 125,000...Proved at Anandpur sahib, Chamkaur sahib, Chellian wala, Anglosikh Wars.. and at SARAGARRHI AFGHANISTAN. THIS "MIRACLE" is still visible TODAY and will be visible TOMORROW.

    Has History ever seen a GURU GOBIND SINGH who transformed SERVANT into MASTER..and MASTER into SERVANT. Has anyone ever TRANSFERRED HIS POWERS to the PUNJ like GURU JI...and made sure that the MIRACLE of 1699 Vasakhi can be RENEWED all over the World at thousands of Amrit Sanchaars..today and tomorrow and for ages to come. THIS AMRIT REVIVED people DEAD for more than 1000 years into WARRIORS that LIVE forver. Now you tell me..which is an actual miracle..Lazarus re-living for a few years or the KHALSA living forever... The ORIGINAL PUNJ..."died" long ago...BUT the PUNJ are as alive today as they were in 1699.

    Gurbani mentions "miracles" of Bhagat Parhlaad...as when he was afraid to hug the red hot pillar....and Bhagwan Ji became an ant and crawled on the red hot pillar to "show" that it was really cool....and thus Bhagat prahlaad went ahead and hugged the pillar turning it into cold iron from which Bhagwan burst forth and KILLEd the demon King.... BUT when the time came for GURU ARJUN JI to Sit on the Burning Hot Plate, in 120 degree Heat of summer, with red hot sand being poured over his head....did Guru Ji perform a "miracle" or did "bhagwaan Ji" become an ant and walk the hot tava to "show the tava is cool ?? NO. Guru ji declared..TERA BHANNA MEETHA LAGEH..NAAM padarth nanak Manggeh..YOUR WILL is SWEET oh LORD..I only ask of YOUR NAME. Sain Mian Mir, a very Holy saint and accomplished man of God asked GURU JI's Permission to lift one finger and he would smash Lahore and Delhi to bits with his vast spiritual powers...GURU JI replied NO. this is the Will of My LORD.

    Did the GURU do all this only by himself and for himself ?? NO. EACH and EVERY SIKH of the GURU...accomplished the same task as the GURU... Bhai mati dass got himself SAWED alive into two, Bhai Sati dass got burned alive wrapped in cotton and soaked with kerosene, Bhai Dyala Ji got boiled alive like a potato, five year old Sahibzadah Fateh Singh and his seven year older brother Zorawar Singh got bricked up alive..refusing to save their lives by converting to Islam...fear, threats, inducements like riches, titles of Princes and beautiful wives etc failed to shake their FAITH. Seven Year Old Harkirat Singh disowned his mother who was trying to prove he was not a Sikh, and stood up on tip toe to make it easier for the executioner to cut off his head, Bhai mani Singh forced the executioner to obey the order to cut him limb and joint by joint..and not do a short cut job, bhai taru singh got his scalp removed but not his hair...Sant jarnail Singh bhinderawaleh and his few soldiers kept off vast and superior Indian Armed Forces equipped with the latest weapons, tanks, helicopter gunships, cannons for days and great loss of life on the enmey...these are the LIVING MIRACLES our GURUS performed.

    GURBANI is Dhur Ki bani aiyee tin saglee chint mitayee... Does anyone really beleive that a SIKH beleives in GURU JI's DIVINITY because of His japji sahib, Asa Ki Vaar, Sidh Ghost....etc etc...OR that His face was shaded by a black cobra ?? or that he made the files green after they had been destroyed..or that He stopped a huge rock with his hand...etc etc. TO me GURBANI that GURU JI gifted to humanity is a BIGGER MIRACLE than anything else ..WHAT can compare with GURBANI ??

    FAITH is a mysterious thing...His TOTAL FAITH in his GURU could have made Baba Deep Singh ji fight with his HEAD on HIS PALM...as a SIKH I have no "doubts"..after all GURBANI does ask us to: Jis ko Prem Khelan ka chao..SIR dhar tali gali mori aao..Whomsoever wants to play the game of LOVE..come to me with YOUR head on Your PALM....only difference is we have little faith and so "put our heads on our palms" metaphorically...whereas some one like bab deep Singh ji could have put this into ACTUAL PHYSICAL REALITY. Is it not said faith can move mountains...who am I to question baba Ji's faith in His GURU...and GURBANI does say IF waheguru wishes a PINGLAA ( cripple) can climb a mountain. A long time before Guru Arjun ji was martyred, he had composed a line of Gurbani which declared that IF my Lord's LOVE requires of me that I cut up my body piece by piece and burn it in the Fire myself...I will NOT hesitate. AT that time some in the sangat questioned Guru Ji..IS that possible..can a man cut his body and burn it in the fire like firewood ?? Guru ji replied when the time comes you will see...and when the time came GURU JI carried out his words....GURBANI is NOT exagerration, or over-descriptive...its Word for word has been shown to be practical and carried out by Guru Ji and His Sikhs.

    It is when "sikhs" weak in faith, and uneducated in "gurbani and its true meanings"..become parcharraks..that they generate such miracles. tall tales, sakhis etc to embellish their accounts, make for interesting tales. Just like the ancient Janamsakhi writers "copied" miracles for Guru nanak ji ( the Black Cobra snake hood covering face story is also related for Prophet Mohammed Ji...although so far no snake hood "big anough" has been discovered that can shade human face..similar tales of choj etc are found in relation to Hindu Bhagwaans like Krishan and Ram Chander Ji....obviously the hindu influenced writers tried to show "similarities" between the prophets to show Guru ji is also a Prophet ) IMHO it is a gross INSULT to GURU Ji to say that GURU NANAK Ji used supernatural powers to fly around the world..when IN FACT GURU JI travelled by foot through dangerous forests and deserts etc to spread the DIVINE MESSAGE. GURU and His SIKH are the SAME...IF the GURU can give his head..so can the SIKH, IF the GURU can give AMRIT..so can His SIKH..so if Guru Ji "flew" so could his SIKH..I can show you hundreds of sikhs who gave their heads, I can show you hundreds of thousands of Amrit sanchaars where the PUNJ did exactly what guru ji did in 1699...BUT I challenge anyone to show me a FLYING SIKH who can circumnavigate the Globe just like Guru Ji is "supposed" to have done.

    To be continued

    Jarnail Singh
     
  10. ravisingh

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    Waheguru ji ka khalsa
    Waheguru ji ke fateh

    Gyani ji,

    A very inspiring post! I agree whole heartedly and thank-you once again for your enlightening post!

    I especially appreciate your view on "miracles" and that you demonstrate the mistakes that emerge when one tries to understand (or reinterpret) Sikhi within the context of another religion. Disastrous things result --as you note. I find the same thing happens here in Canada and the US. I find my Sikh brothers and sisters aligning themselves with the "religious right" who hold views and moral positions condemning all sorts of activities (based upon beliefs stemming from their own religions) that are not, IMHO, in line with the tolerant and progressive views of Sikhi (ten commandments posted everywhere, oppression of minority groups, etc). I find that many sikhs insistence on "mircales" falls squarely in this category as well.

    I look forward to hearing from you further on these issues especially on how you feel Sikhi sits with the acceptance/respect/tolerance of other faiths when they appear --in some sense --to be opposed to Sikhi (Heaven/hell, judgment, a clergy that acts an "agent" for god, etc. for example).

    Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa
    Waheguru ji ke fateh!
     
  11. drkhalsa

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    Gyani ji

    It was really very inspiring post Thank you ....... very much
     
  12. vijaydeep Singh

    vijaydeep Singh
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    Ek Oankar Wahiguru Ji Ki Fateh

    Dear Gyani Sahib,

    Das also want to put a point over here,Some baba was saying that Gurudev in tenth form revived a dead son of a Sikh by sprinkiling water from Garhwa and enchanting the last line of Japu Sahib(Dooh Kalan...).And that boy was dead for one whole day.

    Das just want to say that when that person will die the Khalsa from whom Guru took Amrit may not be able to repeat same with him.Nor can that Baba do this.

    But history says that when Baba Atal Ji or baba Gurditta Ji showed miracle and wnet against the maryada they were told to leave there earthly body by there fathers(Both were Gurus).

    In Fact once a lady who daily use to bring Khichhari for Third Guru one day in early morning faced storm,she did Ardas(prayer) to Akal to stop it so that she could take food to Guru,It stopped and she went to Guru.

    Guru said that he will not eat food.As that storm was a mean to bring food to many living beings so by preventing it she did interfere with law of nature.

    So even praying and asking is not encouraged but to be happy as Akal keep us.

    But Das want to add one more thing.Regarding baba Budha Ji episode may be that he was the one who did tilak to Gurus on Guru Gaddi so this was only a symbolism to tell that Sikhs were higher or equals to Gurus(asVars of bhai Gurudas Ist(not the second)say that Sikhs became Guru and Guru became Sikh).ThAt could have been crerated to prevent people from worshipping Guru in person.

    But Akal does not want each and every one to be enlightened.If whole world becomes Brah Gyani then how on earth is there any use for Akal to make world.Akal is Sarbang Bhukta(all pleasure or pain what appear to be taken by man are in fact borne by Akal,Via our bodies Akal get the taste of all things) It is pleasure of Akal that we are made by Akal.

    So in fact to deviate the mankind from Truth and to let some of them go to wrong miracle side Akal has created wrong 'Saints',Even if there Vardan or boom or Sarraap or curse are in fact bein realise then the power is of Akal.
    If someone goes to worship saint then that person is destained to go away from truth.Akal's willing if someone sees Akal in all then he is salvaged being alive.As Akal is Ghat Ghat anatar,Sarb Nirnatar(in all bodies/Atom,all without discrimnation) then if some blessing or otherwise is being made by one who is one with Akal can can Happen.

    Perhaps Gyani Sahib Das thinks that People Like Amarpal Singh Ji or Yourself are a much bigger Saint then present Day Dera Dars,who are like termites eating wealth(there hindu counter parts have already spoiled hinduism).DFas realy think that when any true Sant gives a blessing when being one with Akal,that thing does happen.(Nikti hoi Dikhave apne Sevak ko,Jo Jo Kahe Thakur te Sevak,Tat Kal hoi jave)(Akal shows that Akal is near to Akal's follwer,what ever does Follower say to lord it happens at that time only).

    But the thing is weather we should ask for the blessing or stay happy as Akal keeps us. As Akal does chinta(Take care) for us(Agam Agochar Alakh Apar ChintA Kare Hamari).So even if such things were done in past(Hypothatically) then instead of following personal worship Faith in Akal is to be made strong.So Be it Krishan or Rasool, they were Sikhs of Akal before Gurus come on earth.They were here to serve human so Akal helped them.Nothing great ABOUT any person born out of yoni but all glory to Ajooni(Birthless Akal).Such are tests which Akal Take and Akal only let us pass.

    Then regarding Bhai Gurdas two,Can das have whole of his verse some where online in Gurmukhi,

    Das wants to say that he can not be a Brahmin as he wrote in that war clearly thaT at time when Panth came Brahmin,Pandit and asrtologwers were misguiding and Khalsa in fact destroyed Deval(Temples and idols and perhaps mosques) and it was a third faith.Das does not think a non Sikh can write this. Or say he can be non sikh but not a brahmanical Brahman.but say a Sikh who is hating all faiths but Sikhism or can be a person who is just putting Sikhs at high spirit while they are figthing the forces who go to temple or mosques but any way this verse is made after the creation of Khalsa.

    Das think that part which is bothring is the one given below :-
    so such are the part of a few other line of whole Var(a type of writining)16th vesre of bhai gurdas 2nd second as follows
    by the order of Gurbar(guru) God(akal) science was created.
    then created khalsa sabat(complte) manly.
    Then rouse singh by roaring whole universe was terrified.
    Grave of bone,temple of deities,Graves,mosque (demolished) to ground and made plane ground at thier place.
    Vedas ,Puranas,six(philosophys),scriptures again were deleted(removed ie vanished) with kuran(too).
    Shout(of) namaz was removed and sultans were killed.
    Mirs and pirs(of mulims ie thier political and spritual power) were hidden (thir) faith became upside dowen.
    Maulawi(muslim clerics) Qazi(islamic expersts) were tired of reading but did not understand reality a bit.
    Millions of Pandits,Brahmins,Asrologers were confusing with vices(evil).
    Again by worshiping stone and devals(temple o deities) very much were causing illusion.
    like this both the faith were absorbed in shamming.
    Then third faith khalsa head(of both) was created.
    They by order of Guru Govind took sabre in thier hand.
    They defeated/destroyed all evil and made them worship Akal.Then such order of Akal came to universe.
    No one could undergo circumcension and turks were shiwering.
    Likewise the all creed of muhamud was reduced.
    Then did the drum of victory was (making) voice and sorrow ,(inner) struggle was destroyed.
    Thus third faith was created(by) great brave.
    Vah Vah Gobind Singh ape Guru Chela.
    Brave to Guru Gobind Singh Self a Guide (and )self desiple (of Followers ie Sikh).

    Das here want to say that sunnat has a bigger meaning,Here circumsention which was and still was mistken to be a ritualism justifying spritualism as we have vegitarrian sikhs or one who are more to ritualism so such sort of sunnat was stopped.Then creed of Muhamud is not Islam as it is creed of Allah or Akal,but there are still some sects who are still after rasool forsakeing Allah so that shamming creed was reduced and true Islam came to being.

    Turk can not be a muslim as it is tribe and as per Islam whole mankind has a tribe of admi(of Hazrat Adem Ahle Salla).

    In nutshell even this Var can be interprted as per Gurmat.We need to work a bit hard over it.Mere circumsecntion being done and killing of non Muslim is not Islam like wise even a Amritdhari Sikh who hate fellow Sikh due to idealogical,linguistic,regeonal or class differance is Hindu Andha(Blind hindu in truth) and like wise if Sikh hate all non Sikhs be it muslim,Chrisitian or Hindu but love Sikhs only then he is Turk Kaana(one eyed Turk) Das still has a bit of trces of the former but by mercy of Akal it will be removed.

    Das at last again repeat that people like Gyani Sahib,Amerpal Singh Ji are real Saints as they care for Panth.Das even see Saintlyness in Kala Afghana Sahib(he needs to be a sipahi or soldier also a bit more) But they as far as these great men of are forum including Tejwant Singh Ji are concsern.Das can say that he is not eqaul to dust of there feets.And they are real Saints but due to evil era of Kaliyuga shammers tend to come out and claim to be saints.Anyone whom say that he can bless can never be a saint as Saint has no ego.All of saint is of Akal.

    Mense of Deradari can be removed and so do the wizardy related to us.Das will discuus how some other day.And by mercy of Akal and blessing of Great True Saints like Gyani Sahib ,Amarpal Singh Ji,Tejwant Singh Ji we shall overcome.Das hates a few 'sants' as they are encouraging sectornalism in faith.Das wants to unit Hindus with Sikhism and they casue Sikhs to devide.
    If miracle was to undo all ills then Guru may not have given us importance of weapans.
     

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