Support For The Concept Of Reincarnation In Sikhism?

[Ambarsaria]

Sikh pyario and spners, please read the following article if you have not already done so written by a brilliant person,

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/interfaith-dialogues/34243-five-reasons-you-wont-die.html

With the help of the above article we can basically say the following,

• Albert Einstein said "Now Besso has departed from this strange world a little ahead of me. That means nothing. People like us...know that the distinction between past, present and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion."

• Although bodies self-destruct, the "me'' feeling is just a 20-watt cloud of energy in your head.

• Death doesn't exist in any real sense in these scenarios. All possible universes exist simultaneously, regardless of what happens in any of them.

• You will live on through your children, friends, and all who you touch during your life, not only as part of them, but through the histories you collapse with every action you take.

• Your consciousness will always be in the present -- balanced between the infinite past and the indefinite future -- moving intermittently between realities along the edge of time, having new adventures and meeting new (and rejoining old) friends.

Another way of saying all of the above is that there are infinity of worlds, infinity of universes with skies and earths and somewhere out there the duality continues to play,

There are no boundaries in the infinite universe or time and we are alive and dead at the same time
​

Based on developing dialog I will contribute accordingly and don't want to monopolize through a longer post at this time.

Simple test:

• Close your eyes and imagine you are with Baba Nanak ji and you say to him, " Baba ji manoo re-incarnate kar deo" (Baba Nanak ji I want to be re-incarnated).

• • When I do that Baba Nanak says to me, "Puttar kadin soul ve mardi. Teri shakal soorat varge te aondey jande sadah", (Son, does soul ever die! People looking like you have been around, are around and will be around in the universe(s)).

YouTube - Gurdas Mann - uchadar babe nanak da.flv

I ask no more questions till the next time.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[spnadmin]

Ambarsariaji

It is good to hear that you were so moved by that article. It is also hard sometimes to know which articles posted in Interfaith dialogs will strike a cord with our members and readers. I personally do not always know what to make of the author Dr. Lanza and his theory of everything. That particular article, Five Reasons Why You Won't Die, however did pull together many themes of many discussions here at SPN. And just a quick read reminded me that when we have been with a dying person, accompanying them as far as we can and until we say good-bye, that much of what Dr. Lanza describes is very real.

 

[Ambarsaria]

spnadmin ji just a personal comment on your line in the post above,

"And just a quick read reminded me that when we have been with a dying person, accompanying them as far as we can and until we say good-bye, ..."

I had one such experience when my father passed away. He was sick and in a Hospital in India. He told us his time has come. He was in Charrdi Kalaa (high spirits).

I went there to help as well as I could regardless.

We were with him day and night. I was there the night before he passed away. It was 3AM and he called my name saying he was hungry. I sat him in a chair and made burkis (piece of chappati) and dipped these in Sagh to feed him. He told me he had not had such a nice meal for the longest time and showed his love to me. At around 7AM he calls me and says I should go home and rest as I have been up all night. So my brother-in-law came over to help for the day. I had not even reached home in rickshaw that I was told he passed away. This happened to be his last meal. I can vividly recall the setting. Did part of his soul get absorbed in mine at that time from him, perhaps. And may be the others did too.

Few hours later we were in a Jeep taking his body home to Amritsar as I held on to his limbs so the body was secure. Rigor mortis has already set in. We did the cremation and Akhand Path starting the next day.

As we go through life's minutes, hours and days many philosophical concepts actually become near real.
​

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[amarjit singh bamrah]

English Translation:
Shalok, Third Mehl: Without serving the True Guru, the soul is in the bondage of deeds done in ego. Without serving the True Guru, one finds no place of rest; he dies, and is reincarnated, and continues coming and going. Without serving the True Guru, one's speech is vapid and insipid; the Naam, the Name of the Lord, does not abide in his mind. O Nanak, without serving the True Guru, they are bound and beaten in the City of Death; they arise and depart with blackened faces. ||1|| First Mehl: Burn away those rituals which lead you to forget the Beloved Lord. O Nanak, sublime is that love, which preserves my honor with my Lord Master. ||2|| Pauree: Serve the One Lord, the Great Giver; meditate on the One Lord. Beg from the One Lord, the Great Giver, and you shall obtain your heart's desires. But if you beg from another, then you shall be shamed and destroyed. One who serves the Lord obtains the fruits of his rewards; all of his hunger is satisfied. Nanak is a sacrifice to those, who night and day, meditate within their hearts on the Name of the Lord. ||10||

​

Punjabi Translation:

:happysingh:

 

[Satyaban]

Beautiful thread, my wife was in my arms when she gave up that life.

 

[Ambarsaria]

Veer Amarjit Singh Bamrah ji the following is wrong translation,

Without serving the True Guru, one finds no place of rest; he dies, and is reincarnated, and continues coming and going.

Let us review the Sabad again as below,

ਸਲੋਕ ਮਃ ੩ ॥
Salok mėhlā 3.
Shalok, Third Mehl:
ਸਲੋਕ ਤੀਜੀ ਪਾਤਿਸ਼ਾਹੀ।
xxx
xxx

ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੇਵੇ ਜੀਅ ਕੇ ਬੰਧਨਾ ਵਿਚਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਹਿ ॥
Bin saṯgur seve jī▫a ke banḏẖnā vicẖ ha▫umai karam kamāhi.

ਮਨੁੱਖ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਤੋਂ ਖੁੰਝ ਕੇ ਅਹੰਕਾਰ ਦੇ ਆਸਰੇ ਕਰਮ ਕਰਦੇ ਹਨ, ਪਰ ਉਹ ਕਰਮ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਆਤਮਾ ਲਈ ਬੰਧਨ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ।
Without serving the eternal creator, deeds done with ego become restraining shackles.


ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੇਵੇ ਠਉਰ ਨ ਪਾਵਹੀ ਮਰਿ ਜੰਮਹਿ ਆਵਹਿ ਜਾਹਿ ॥
Bin saṯgur seve ṯẖa▫ur na pāvhī mar jamėh āvahi jāhi.
ਸੱਚੇ ਗੁਰਾਂ ਦੀ ਟਹਿਲ ਕਰਨ ਦੇ ਬਗੈਰ ਇਨਸਾਨ ਨੂੰ ਕੋਈ ਆਰਾਮ ਦੀ ਥਾਂ ਨਹੀਂ ਮਿਲਦੀ। ਉਹ ਮਰਦਾ, ਮੁੜ ਜੰਮਦਾ ਅਤੇ ਆਉਂਦਾ ਤੇ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ।
ਠਉਰ = ਟਿਕਾਣਾ, ਇਸਥਿਤੀ, ਭਟਕਣ ਤੋਂ ਖ਼ਲਾਸੀ।
ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਦੱਸੀ ਕਾਰ ਨਾ ਕਰਨ ਕਰ ਕੇ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਕਿਤੇ ਥਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਮਿਲਦੀ, ਉਹ ਮਰਦੇ ਹਨ (ਫੇਰ) ਜੰਮਦੇ ਹਨ, (ਸੰਸਾਰ ਵਿਚ) ਆਉਂਦੇ ਹਨ, (ਫੇਰ) ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ।
Without serving the eternal creator, there is no steadiness; death, birth, come and go.


ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੇਵੇ ਫਿਕਾ ਬੋਲਣਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਵਸੈ ਮਨ ਮਾਹਿ ॥
Bin saṯgur seve fikā bolṇā nām na vasai man māhi.
ਸੱਚੇ ਗੁਰਾਂ ਦੀ ਟਹਿਲ ਦੇ ਬਾਝੋਂ ਫਿਕਲੀ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ। ਬੰਦੇ ਦੀ ਬੋਲ ਚਾਲ, ਤੇ ਨਾਮ ਉਸ ਦੇ ਚਿੱਤ ਅੰਦਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਟਿਕਦਾ।
xxx
ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਦੱਸੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਤੋਂ ਵਾਂਜੇ ਰਹਿ ਕੇ ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਬੋਲ ਭੀ ਫਿੱਕੇ ਹੁੰਦੇ ਹਨ ਤੇ 'ਨਾਮ' ਉਹਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਮਨ ਵਿਚ ਵੱਸਦਾ ਨਹੀਂ।
Without serving the eternal creator, empty deliberations and understanding does not stick in mind.

ਨਾਨਕ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੇਵੇ ਜਮ ਪੁਰਿ ਬਧੇ ਮਾਰੀਅਨਿ ਮੁਹਿ ਕਾਲੈ ਉਠਿ ਜਾਹਿ ॥੧॥
Nānak bin saṯgur seve jam pur baḏẖe mārī▫an muhi kālai uṯẖ jāhi. ||1||
ਨਾਨਕ, ਗੁਰਾਂ ਦੀ ਟਹਿਲ ਦੇ ਬਗੈਰ ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ, ਸਿਆਹ ਚਿਹਰੇ ਨਾਲ ਖੜੇ ਹੋ ਟੁਰ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ ਅਤੇ ਮੌਤ ਦੇ ਸ਼ਹਿਰ ਅੰਦਰ ਨਰੜ ਕੇ ਮਾਰੇ ਪਿੱਟੇ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ।
ਮੁਹਿ ਕਾਲੈ = ਕਾਲੇ ਮੂੰਹ ਨਾਲ, ਮੁਕਾਲਖ ਖੱਟ ਕੇ ॥੧॥
ਹੇਨਾਨਕ! ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ ਕਾਲੇ-ਮੂੰਹ (ਸੰਸਾਰ ਤੋਂ) ਤੁਰ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ ਤੇਜਮਪੁਰੀ ਵਿਚ ਬੱਧੇ ਹੋਏ ਮਾਰ ਖਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ (ਭਾਵ, ਇਸ ਲੋਕ ਵਿਚ ਮੁਕਾਲਖ ਖੱਟਦੇ ਹਨ ਤੇਅਗਾਂਹ ਭੀ ਦੁਖੀ ਹੁੰਦੇ ਹਨ) ॥੧॥
Nanak, without serving the eternal creator, these end punished tied down and leave with a blackened face.
ESSENCE: Guru ji explain the concept of serving the creator and understanding the same. Deeds done with ego, shallowness just lead to misery, restrained living and legacy devoid of achievement.

All errors are mine and I stand corrected.


Sat Sri Akal.

 

[prakash.s.bagga]

We can learn from Gurbanee that there are two concepts
One is that of "Transformation " from one form to another and
The other is that of " Incarnation"

Both concepts are valid.There is no negation of these two concepts but we are missing the context in understanding.
When We see the reference of 84 lac Joos like that this is related to the concept of "Transformation" and this can not be ruled out.For this we need to understand Gurbanee more in depth to extract the validity of the concept.

The process of transformation can be looked like this.Thru the knowledge of Science
it ihas been possible to give different shapes and form to any ELEMENT.Even man has succeded in converting Coal (lowest form of Carbon) into Diamond(Highest Form of Carbon).This transformation is man made.

So why it is not possiblle the transformation of different forms per se by THE ULTIMATE CREATOR.

Now theconcept of INCARNATION in Gurbanee is related to as the complete transformation of the thought process perfectly alligned with ULTIMATE CREATOR.
This transformation is related to human form and that is why HUMAN FORM is the most Wonderful and Desired form.

Prakash.S.Bagga

 

[BhagatSingh]

Ambarsaria ji,
Both translations are correct but one posted by Amarjit Singh ji is closer to Prof Sahib Singh's Teeka than yours is. And Prof Sahib Singh is more accurate to the the Gurmukhi than you.

I have noticed that even though you use Prof Sahib Singh's teeka you don't stick to it. It's not much of a problem in any particular case but if you continue making small deviations from it, in the end you will be very far away.

 

[Ambarsaria]

Ambarsaria ji,
Both translations are correct but one posted by Amarjit Singh ji is closer to Prof Sahib Singh's Teeka than yours is. And Prof Sahib Singh is more accurate to the the Gurmukhi than you.

I have noticed that even though you use Prof Sahib Singh's teeka you don't stick to it. It's not much of a problem in any particular case but if you continue making small deviations from it, in the end you will be very far away.

Bhagat Singh ji I don't make Punjabi Translations. Those are from Bhai Manmohan Singh ji and Prof. Sahib Singh ji. I am using my head between all three that I see when I translate (Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa, Bhai Manmohan Sing, Prof. Sahib Singh). At any given time I am going to differ from all. I generally follow Prof. Sahib Singh ji and then Bhai Manmohan Singh ji. Rarely I use Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa ji's translation of Punjabi. Some time for Synonym variety for certain words.

It is great to see a young man throwing pebbles at no matter what and how one does. I am not riding a train to get mis-directed where translations are accumulative. Translations are scrutinized by me for each word, line and sabad with the sources the best I can. It will be wonderful to see you do some and I promise not to throw stones. Of course it is always easier and convenient to throw stones (yours are little pebbles) rather than put yourself in a position to be challenged. We are all different and there is perhaps a reason.

I am trolling a little bit of the Sanatan crowded space in couple of threads as I see them descend in flocks for certain posts only and usually in support of anti-Sikhism myths that have been debunked by Guru ji and such people are trying to link back.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Harry Haller]

Bhagat Veer Ji

I think a large part of understanding Bani is to cross reference with your heart and inner feelings, as a wise man once said, 'Luke, trust the force...', If one were to stick to a teeka, instead of using it for guidance, then what exactly is the point of study and learning, we may as well just post established teeka's instead.

For the record, given the background and roots of reincarnation, I do not believe the first Master would laud such a concept, however it is ambiguous enough to address the issues of the time, and way beyond that.

A good teacher helps you learn, helps you understand, rather than giving you the answers on a platter......

 

[BhagatSingh]

Ambarsaria ji,
Do you want a hug?

 

[Ambarsaria]

Ambarsaria ji,
Do you want a hug?

Veer Bhagat Singh ji I will always pat you on the back as a young man. Last time a very friendly younger person gave me a pretty surprise and strong hug. My ribs were bruised and painful for a few months as ribs shifted. So I ain't going to go for a hug. Your contributions, comments (positive/negative) are a form of hug.

Thanks and have a great evening.

Sat Sri Akla.

 

[Satyaban]

"I am trolling a little bit of the Sanatan crowded space in couple of threads as I see them descend in flocks for certain posts only and usually in support of anti-Sikhism myths that have been debunked by Guru ji and such people are trying to link back."


Well my goodness ji aren't you ignorant "ji"

Its because of people like you that I don't come here.

 

[Luckysingh]

Gurfateh

I will be frank, there are times when I spot an interesting thread and then while i'm getting into it alot of members have steered away into another lane for another issue.
Thus the original title is still unanswered.

Being frank, I believe there is a 'concept for reincarnation in sikhism'.
This concept is quite different to how other religions portray their own concepts.

To say that no reincarnation concept exists in sikhism, I think is a very narrow minded view.
Being quite frank and honest here, a lot of subjects and WHY's. IF's and HOW's that we all question actually don't make any sense to my personal beliefs if I throw the reincarnation concept out.

I personally do not understand how all these simulataneous events are occuring in the universe if they were no concept and maintenance of balance.

Sat kartar
Lucky Singh

 

[Harry Haller]

I firmly believe in no reincarnation, anything else would shake my entire faith, however, to each his own, let us try and concentrate on what binds us, not divides us

 

[Harry Haller]

Satyabanji

I have much respect for Hindus, and Hindu philosophy, however, I and many others find it counter productive when our Sikh brothers and sisters embrace these philosophies as Sikh. They are not Sikh, they are Hindu, and very fine philosophies they are, but nonetheless, Hindu ones.

 

[Gyani Jarnail Singh]

The LAWS of NATURE..are awsome beyond awsome....simultaneous is actually a very very tiny speck of a word to describe the zillions upon zillions of "happenings" happening..ALL IN HIS HUKM..HUKM means LAW...The Law of HUKM. Scientists using tiny "instruments " like the Hubble telescope are just scratching the surface and finding out just how AWSOME and SIMULTANEOUS His actions are throughout the Brahmaand.....Only a BRAHM-Gyaanwaan can understand this..and that is Only HIM...

GURBANI is for the LIVING HUMAN..thats why GURBANI keeps on REPEATING HOW the HUMAN BODY is CREATED..how it FUNCTIONS..how it DIES..and what happens to this DEAD BODY........ever wondered WHY this ENDLESS HARPING on the PHYSICAL BODY ?? while all other religions are harping on the heavenly rewards and hells punishments...????
Brahmins and Pujarees CREATED all those beleifs in the afterwards..to ENRICH THEMSELVES....why did GURU NANAK travel all the way to hardwaar to THROW WATER TO THE WEST..when EACH PERSON among the millions gathered were throwing water to the EAST ?? Was this "karamkaand" that vital ?? NO. The clear intention of GURU Nanak ji was to DISPELL any "DOUBTS" that there were OTHER WORLDS where the DEAD DEPARTED SOULS were dying of THIRST !! The idea was to DENY any such "Pittars" existed..ever...and SIMPLY BECAUSE later on SIKHS of GURU NANAK could NOT discard this "false beleif" in PITTARS..that we have Akhand paaths and sehaj paath bhogs and b{censored}es and bhandeh, bisterehs, langgars, saaradhs etc etc being DONE....exactly what the BRAHMIN used to do..Sikh granthis do today...they eat saraadhs..they eat langgars and they do FALSE ardasses supposed to reach the DEAD ??? Does any one think GURU NANAK JI would ever do such an ARDASS ?? are there PITTARS and do our ardasses reach them..do they use the beddings we send them ?? Do they FEED on the kheer and karrah we make for them ?? Guru jis visit to hardwaar is WASTED ON us becasue we cannot throw out the RUBBISH GURU JI took to the TRASH CAN FOR US 500 years ago..we went out and took back each single ITEM of GARBAGE.

 

[Archived_member14]

Harry ji,

I firmly believe in no reincarnation, anything else would shake my entire faith, however, to each his own, let us try and concentrate on what binds us, not divides us

We see that some Sikhs believe that reincarnation is a valid concept according to Sikh teachings and some say that it is not. So apparently people read into the scriptures what they like to read.

I personally do not believe in reincarnation, but this is because I do not believe in the existence of anything substantial and lasting as in 'soul'. But I do believe that the consciousness which arose at birth and since then has conditioned uncountable number of consciousness to arise one after the other, does not end at what we conventionally identify as death of the individual, but continues the same way as some other being.

You do not believe in reincarnation and I sense that you are not open to the kind of idea I've suggested above, either. But I'll ask you only in relation to the one, since I think that you do believe in a soul, why do you not believe in reincarnation?

 

[Ambarsaria]

Folks some thoughts for discourse. The subject is soul as it goes without saying that any non-Christian will agree that the physical re-incarnation is not a concept to dwell too much energy on.

The following, not necessarily Gurbani or Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji based,

Some quotes I noted for self,

• When you do things from your soul you feel a river moving in you, a joy. When action comes from another section, the feeling disappears. ~Rumi

• Say not, "I have found the truth," but rather, "I have found a truth." Say not, "I have found the path of the soul." Say rather, "I have met the soul walking upon my path." For the soul walks upon all paths. The soul walks not upon a line, neither does it grow like a reed. The soul unfolds itself, like a lotus of countless petals. ~Kahlil Gibran, The Prophet, 1923

• What is soul? It's like electricity - we don't really know what it is, but it's a force that can light a room. ~Ray Charles

• Living is being born slowly. It would be a little too easy if we could borrow ready-made souls. ~Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, Flight to Arras, 1942

• I simply believe that some part of the human Self or Soul is not subject to the laws of space and time. ~Carl Jung

• Good for the body is the work of the body, good for the soul the work of the soul, and good for either the work of the other. ~Henry David Thoreau

• Care I for the limb, the thews, the stature, bulk, and big assemblance of a man! Give me the spirit. ~William Shakespeare

• Put your ear down close to your soul and listen hard. ~Anne Sexton

Cycles of Soul: Creation, Growth and its Death or Transformation into other Souls

Soul is the inner self that is like a sounding board of impartiality within. It sees you without clothes, it sees you without bias or ill will or animosity. In our action we have a choice to go with what our soul tells us or decide otherwise. In practical living, the actions you take in worldly matters do not always bring about the best outcome if you always follow your soul (me think!).

Some point for philosophical discourse follow.

Soul :

• Is it something you are born with fully developed?
  • You are born with a body and a baby soul in it
  • Is it something you are born with that slowly develops through life?
    • Your soul grows with your body
    • As it sees more of you without any cloak you see it also as the truthful one which understands you whether you like it or not
    • You can camouflage your way through the world, you cannot fool your soul

• Does your soul continues to be or dissipates in other growing souls at death?
  • Your soul interacts with others through any of the five senses and a sixth sense (soul’s independent processing power)
  • Others interact with you and your soul through their senses and souls
  • Your interactions with other souls diminish but never die totally
  • Your soul is like a wave that diminishes over time to almost nothingness in the Universe ocean but will forever reverberate in a small measure somewhere

• Does a soul never die then how are new souls created as there are more people now than 20,000 years ago?
  • Souls never die and parts of them merge with other souls and become part thereof.
  • Souls like entropy will always increase and the new are created for ever with components of old and seeding of biological processes

• Does non-life has soul?
  • No it does not but everything is part of oneness (Sikhism) and on earth soul like equivalents and souls can be expected to be everywhere.

• Can you trade your soul?
  • No you cannot. Though, you are allowed to fool yourself for sure.

• In the end, can you ever fool soul or not show its suppression?
  • Another soul always has the capability to see your soul.
  • It is the sixth sense, it is inherent, it is unseen-unheard-untouched but still understood

Now if all of the above can in part support re-incarnation then I need to dig further. However if all of the above rules out re-incarnation, I also need to dig further.

Consonance is collective soul that we dip into and put things back into and it forever will prevail. This is what I see in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji all the time the concept and recognition of consonance, its exposition and living in such understanding being fundamental.


Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Harry Haller]

Harry ji,





We see that some Sikhs believe that reincarnation is a valid concept according to Sikh teachings and some say that it is not. So apparently people read into the scriptures what they like to read.

I personally do not believe in reincarnation, but this is because I do not believe in the existence of anything substantial and lasting as in 'soul'. But I do believe that the consciousness which arose at birth and since then has conditioned uncountable number of consciousness to arise one after the other, does not end at what we conventionally identify as death of the individual, but continues the same way as some other being.

You do not believe in reincarnation and I sense that you are not open to the kind of idea I've suggested above, either. But I'll ask you only in relation to the one, since I think that you do believe in a soul, why do you not believe in reincarnation?

Much food for thought, I read this just before going shopping and mused on it til I came back. I am glad to see my Veer Ambarsariaji has also given the matter thought.

after much thought, my present holding position is as follows:-

Life must be lived on the basis that there is no reincarnation and that the soul dissipates amongst those we love when we die, if there were to be any other outcome, well hey hoo, but the attitude whilst alive must be on the basis that death is final, anything else would be a bonus.

I do not wish to spend my life focusing on what happens after, it is unimportant and beyond my control, if we all knew for certain it would affect our entire attitude to living