Welcome to SPN

Register and Join the most happening forum of Sikh community & intellectuals from around the world.

Sign Up Now!

Stories: Hard to Believe

Discussion in 'New to Sikhism' started by Ksingh1985, Mar 22, 2011.

Tags:
  1. Ksingh1985

    Ksingh1985
    Expand Collapse
    SPNer

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2011
    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    2
    Im new so i apologize if this is in the wrong forum or this topic has been discussed already. But i have a question. I always here these stories about our gurus and its very difficult to believe, espically in this time. For example:
    "One morning when the Guru was sitting in meditation, the demon rolled down a large pathar (boulder) from the hilltop, with the intention of killing the Guru. The boulder came rolling down and when it touched the Guru’s body, it melted like wax. The Guru kept on meditating unhurt and undisturbed. Thinking that the Guru had been killed, the demon came down and was taken aback to see the Guru deep in meditation. In a fit of anger, he tried to push the boulder with his right foot, but as the pathar had already melted like wax, his foot got embedded in it"

    This story seems hard to believe. Im i missing something. To me this is an perfect example of science vs religion. It impoosible to turn a boulder into wax. Your input is greatly appreciated, thank you
     

    Attached Files:

    • Like Like x 1
  2. Loading...


  3. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,551
    Likes Received:
    19,200
    Ksingh 1985 ji

    Thanks for the link. Here it is, posted for everyone else. http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Guru_Nanak_in_Tibet_Quotes

    This is from an article, "Guru Nanak in Tibet" at the SikhiWiki site, and is a wonderful summary of the Tibetan memory of Guru Nanak in his udasi to Tibet, and the Buddhist viewpoint of his life and contributions.

    The actual story you report is a sakhi or life sketch told by the Tibetan Lamas. Here is the story in its entirety. It is actually written as part of a travelogue intended to give the traveler a sense of the folklore that surrounds holy places in Tibet.
    My reaction.There is historical support that Guru Nanak visited Tibet, and that he made a positive impression on the lamas. We should respect the right of Tibetans to believe this story, but it has no standing within the Sikh religion, as Sikhs do not subscribe to demons. So the question about religion versus science has no context here.

    Here is the similar version from the Janamsakhi. It is posted on Sikhnet in the children's section http://www.{url not allowed}/audio/guru-nanak-and-boulder It shares some important parallels with the story of the Tibetan demon....I do not want at this time to say whose Janamskahi this originates from, or if it is originally told by Bhai Bala. I am not sure.

    Now once again, I don't see this as a question of religion versus science. I see it more as a matter of truth versus fiction. The janamsakhi falls into a group of life sketches in which Guru Nanak is made to look a miracle worker. But Guruji himself rejected miracles in his bani in many places, and there are other sakhis which contradict the "miracle" working image of Guru Nanak. All of this makes for a good conversation.

    The janamsakhi are a slippery slope. There are several collections of them and they are inconsistent with each other. Some can be validated because they match what Guruji relates in his hymns in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Others are likely to be pure fiction, told to make ordinary things and places seem full of holiness. And the motivation may be to collect money and tribute from pilgrims who travel to the site of the "miracle." We have a thread on janamsakhi and the difficulties that scholars have encountered with them.

    Janam-Sakhis: The FABEL-ous Cultural Heritage
    http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sakhis/34418-janam-sakhis-fabel-ous-cultural-heritage.html

    I have uploaded an excellent scholarly work on this subject as a pdf file. See the attachment. :)
     

    Attached Files:

    • Like Like x 4
  4. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
    Expand Collapse
    1947-2014 (Archived)
    SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2004
    Messages:
    14,551
    Likes Received:
    19,200
    Note on Bhai Bala.

    The janamsakhi by Bhai Bala were at one time believed to be the first account of Guru Nanak's life, written in 1540. Later scholars disputed this,

    http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sakhis/34418-janam-sakhis-fabel-ous-cultural-heritage.html

    Truth or fiction?
     
  5. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
    Expand Collapse
    Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
    Mentor Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,623
    Likes Received:
    14,188
    FICTION is always very interesting...that is why FICTION BOOKS outsell FACTUAL books by about 10 to 1 !! The Harry Potter books is an example...

    2. Most Important is this FICTION is NOT written by the GURUS....the GURUS wrote the SGGS/GURBANI..so if you want to know what the GURU SAYS..FIRSTHAND..read the SGGS.
    IF one wants to see what Diivine Message the GURUs Have brought us..read the SGGS..if one wants to be entertained...then go ahead and read Bhai Bala Janamsakhi, Sau sakhi, Bhai Vir Singhs Chamatkaars, Suraj parksh, etc etc etc etc..THOUSANDS of such sakhis and tales abound.. YOU WILL NOT NEED any dictionaries..any explanatory notes, any Darpans...and steeks.....just rudimentary knowledge of the language used to write them...and I can vouch they are way more "entertaining" than GURBANI...which may indeed be quite "boring" even to the uninitiated...as a DIAMOND needs a Jeweller to be "known" but any fool can judge/buy the ordinary CRYSTAL in a China Shop !! Diamonds need decades of EXPERTISE and experience....any Tom and Harry cna open a Crystal shop and begin selling shining glass beads....Simple as THAT. There is no question of science vs religion etc becasue this is NEITHER SCIENCE nor RELIGION (GURMATT). Gurmatt firmly rooted in HUKM RAZAII Challanna...HIS HUKM is SUPREME..no miracles, no going against Nature, laws of Physics, Science etc GRAVITY works on ALL..NO SIKH GURU would ever try and make stones FLY ( other may make Elephants fly)..simply becasue the Law of GRAVITY is in HIS HUKM..and the SIKH GURU would never go against that !!!NO SIKH GURU would walk on WATER..or make stones FLOAT...or make rivers flow UPWARDS...because that is NOT in His HUKM... RAIN ALWAYS FALLS from the SKY to the EARTH....and thats exactly how the SIKH GURU would say and Follow....what is so great IF one SIKH GURU does make RAIN GO UPWARDS...or WALK on water for an hour or a day..or Make stones float !! WHAT WOULD THAT PROVE ?? NOTHING. PERIOD. Except show that the SIKH GURU wants to CHALLENGE the CREATOR....show He is special ??? DIVINE ?? His MESSENGER ??

    You see, the SIKH GURU is PARAS....the "special substance" that Makes OTHERS INTO PARAS. A "Paras" that Makes IRON into GOLD...is common...any ordinary magician can do that...BUT to CREATE PARAS INTO PARAS ?? ONLY the SIKH GURU can do that. HOW ??

    GURU NANAK FACED the TYRANTS...His SIKHS faced tyrants equally.
    Guru Angad faced up to Humanyun and his drawn sword !! fearlessly...
    Guru Arjun Ji sat on the Hot Plate..His SIKHS also sat on similar hot plates, got boiled in cauldrons..as HAPPILY as the GURU...look at Bhai Mati Singh being sawed alive..Bhai sati Dass being burnt ALIVE...Bhai Dyala being BOILED ALIVE...HAPPILY and with compelte PEACE as in TERA BHANNA MEETHA LAGGEH. The GURU never let out any complaint..neither di his SIKHS..one PARAS created so many PARAS..not jsut "golden objects"...
    GURU GOBIND SINGH made the KHANDEY BATTEH DEE PAHUL...the PANJ CREATED the Very SAME PAHUL !!! GURU Gobind Singh ji scarificed his everything..same did so many THOUSANDS of SIKHS..fearlessly...happily....contented in HIS HUKM....at PEACE ....
    Chotteh Sahibzadehs martyred at age 5 and 7..Bhai Harkeerat Singh martyred VOLUNTARILY at age 7 in PUBLIC with the Singhs of Baba Banda Singh bahadur in DELHI.
    The MIRACLES of the SIKH GURUS....created..continue to happen...daily...1708-1850.....1850-1890....1919...1942....1947....1984...and WILL CONTINUE UNABATED...because they are in HIS HUKM...in perfect TUNE with His Nature..His Laws...Sikhs dont celebrate "martyrdom" by killing an innocent animal that ahs no choice..is bound hand and foot...stunned and cut up in "HIS NAME"...the SIKH OFFERS HIS OWN LIFE....Baba Banda Singh had the BEATING HEART of his TODDLER SON cut OUT and stuffed into his mouth...not a word of anger..not a word of complaint...just ACCEPTANCE of HIS HUKM....Hukm Razaii Challnna !!! A Huge HORDE of marauding barbarians surround the one storey mud house of Chamkaur...hundreds of thousands against just 40 hungry weary sikhs.... SIKH GURUS didnt make the SUN STOP dead in the SKY...they THANKED HIM that the Day has been spent in HIS HUKM..and may the NIGHT also be spent in HIS HUKM..and the FRESH DAY as well !!..to FIGHT as well as they can under the circumstances..for HIS VICTORY His FATEH...not theirs...because they are also HIS....not theirs.

    Lest people say that was ..."long ago".....the 21 SIKHS repeated the same at SARAGHARREE in AFGHANISTAN BORDER in BRITISH TIME !! 21 brave sikhs against THOUSANDS !!!...and then once again in 1984...Operation Bluestar.....in AMRITSAR just 26 years ago !!! The PARAS of the GURU is still making more PARASes....and will continue to do so..THAT is the REALITY of GURMATT...and SCIENCE has absolutley NOTHING to say about this !!!!
     
    • Like Like x 3
  6. Randip Singh

    Randip Singh
    Expand Collapse
    SPN Sewadaar
    Historian SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    May 25, 2005
    Messages:
    2,949
    Likes Received:
    2,952
    Sorry but this is hard to believe. ome points to note:

    • The Guru's did no miracles
    • The Guru's did not meet demons
    • Bhai Gurdas contemporary of the Guru's recorded no such fantastical events.
    • Most Sakhi's are written in the 19th Century and are more fiction than fact.
    Remember, we are talking about our Guru here. Our teacher. Not Charles Xavier of the X-men!!
     
    • Like Like x 2
  7. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
    Expand Collapse
    Sawa lakh se EK larraoan
    Mentor Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,623
    Likes Received:
    14,188
    It is rather ."hard to believe"...that a CONFIRMED Murderer who has built up a facade of fake religiousness for decades, and behind thta Mask of Divinity actually brutally murdered hundreds of innocent people..would suddenly and dramatically CHANGE overnight !!
    BUT that did happen..and if you like you can call it a "miracle"..and MY GURU JI certainly performed those types of miracles (if you call it that )...Read Guru Jis own handwritten testimony to that..OOJAL Keha chilkanna...OH your white Robes and Radiant face sshines so brightly...BUT WITHIN is a Heart as Black as COAL !! Sajjan the THUGGH (Cult of murderers and blood sacrificers, human sacrificers, cannibals, blood drinkers ) saw that his Fake facade was ripped apart and he immediately dropped t his knees before Guru nanak ji and decided that from that day on he would be just plain Simple SAJJAN and DROP his "THUGGH" SURNAME !!

    2. People..plain ordinary people..farmers, halwaiis...dhobis, water carriers...etc etc people who had become so used to SLAVERY and abject poverty and took consolation in Karma...bad karma in previous lives...etc etc Blah Blah Blah...who opened their MOUTHS to receive the "holy spit" of the Muslim Oppressor..who tied twigs and branches to their backsides to sweep away their "unholy steps" lest the high brhamin might be polluted by the dust of their feet....the DOWNTRODDEN MASSES for THOUSAND YEARS....10 full centuries....were TRANSFORMED within a FEW DECADES into the MOST Viable Fighting Machine the world has yet to see....the person who had never lifted a kitchen knife began to weild the sword that terrified the traiend professional mughal soldier...the Water carrier that began to see ALL as FRIEND and NONE as his ENEMY...now that is a MIRACLE ( if you like to call it that )...the RAG TAG Masses into the KHALSA that RULED the Land of the Five Rivers..that flew its Nishan Sahib on the RED FORT at Delhi..that SEALED the Borders at Derrah Khyber for ever..the Khlasa that fought with such valour that even its enemies called them DOGS that fight like LIONS !!! Isnt that a miracle ?? isnt that a bit hard to beleive ??
    BUT all of that is REAL....110% REAL and testified to as REAL..not fiction...not imagination...not tall tales.. Anandpur Sahib is real....Chamkaur is real. Walls of Sirhind is REAL...Chaparr Chhirree is REAL...700 singhs kissing DEATH in Delhi with Banda Singh is REAL...Saragharrhee is REAL..Darbar sahib 1984 is REAL !!

    Just turn on your U-TUBE and you can see lots of magicians..even Religious Babas and Holy Men performing acts "hard to beleive"...like turning water to Wine..turning ashes to Diamonds..making chairs overturn by themsleves...and we all go like WAH WAH..so clever...how did he do that ?? How did sai Baba make ash into diamons..how did that baba make tea out of plain water...how did that Brahmgyani stop water flowing out of a bottomless cup ?? so common....

    But Thermopyle...Saragharee..Chamkaur..Sirhind...Ops Bluestar 1984...??? very very RARE EVENTS..only the likes of REAL miracle men can perform..and on HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of people in real life..Those are miracles.Fakes can only show slight of Hand..hidden chemicals to make changes to other chemicals...but we find those interesting..simply becasue we are simple minded folks.with simple pleasurers and the tricksters KNOW that !!!
     

Share This Page