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Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by pk70, Sep 12, 2008.

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  1. pk70

    pk70
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    NEVER LET ANY ONE TAKE YOU OUT OF THE TRACK= Sikhi, a bhagati of IKKANKAAR (G.Singh) - A nut shell History analysis. As Sikhism came on the stage, high class of Hindus didn’t welcome it. Same way hardliner Muslim didn’t. In a country where Muslims were ruling class and Brahmin class of Hindus were not in favor of this new faith, how did it grew into so powerful religion, it is a question? if answered correctly, it would give clear cut reasons of conflicts between hardliner Hindus and hardliner Sikhs. The message Guru ji preached was not against any religion at all but against the root of corruption occurred particularly in both Hindu and Muslim religions. In the beginning, founders of Sikhism enjoyed respect from the rulers. The hardliner Hindus remained spectators as they were spineless before the ruling class, Guru Nanak hints at this fact where he addresses the hypocrisy of religious class of Hindus who would blend their every thing to appease the ruling class( M-1 SGGS 471). Muslim hardliners started feeling threat from this new faith when they noticed a lot of Muslims going to Gurus. The worst point of confrontation came when hardliners succeeded in poisoning the King Jahangir who admitted in his own words that Guru Arjan Dev was a threat to Islam. Point to note here is that how hardliner Hindus played in that situation. They got open chance to support the ruling class by accepting a duty of murdering a prophet of peace. The conflict started never to end. Guru Hargobind Rai, being powerful militarily, never ever taught his followers to hate either the Hindus or the Muslims. He went further to unify the society by building a Mosque for his Muslim workers. Within the Guru House, the dispute for Gurgaddi added fuel to divide Sikhs. So there were people either sympathizer to Guru House or against it. The conflict between Sikhs and hardliner Muslims and hardliner Hindus was reached at its peak at the time of Guru Gobind Singh, the last living Guru of Sikhs. If analyzed carefully the History, Guru Gobind Singh spent more time to fight hardliner Hindu Hill-chiefs than with the Moguls. Simply, those Hindu chiefs were more fearful of Guru Gobind Singh’s militarily power than the Moguls, they kept not just harassing the Guru but also went on poisoning other Muslims about Guru’s power. Think about it, why did they side by Mogul army to evacuate Anandpur Sahib city? After about twenty years or so Guru Gobind Singh, hardliner Hindu, Lakhpat Rai said about Sikhism” This( Sikhism) was started by a Khatri( Guru Nanak) and I, a khatri” am going to finish it” Muslims wanted those kind of fanatics and they openly welcomed him because they had fear only from the Sikhs not the Hindus. At the time of Maharaja Ranjit Singh, these hardliners turned quietbut internally they remained active to end the rule. Betrayal of Dhyan Singh Dogra is example of their” fox like opportunism” Regardless of being Sikh rule a secular one, the hardliner Hindus kept the inner animosity well alive. Same kind of animosity is seen even today in hardliner Hindus against Sikhs. If they are only against hardliners Sikhs or Khalistanis, why they are attacking their religion as a whole?. Now remember, only hardliner Hindus played that role, otherwise, a lot of Hindu population accepted Sikhism as a part of their society with no malice at heart. Whatever is being done against other faiths in the name of Hinduism should be credited to only hard liners like Daya Nand and his followers. Why a population that has 80 % monopoly should fear a threat of any one? Why they should feel insecure with having so much power at their command? Actually, fear is being created; others are incited to react so that they can then show to others how right they are about Sikhs and Muslims. The Hindus who just want to live in harmony, feel sympathetic to Hindu hardliners as they see the reaction of the Sikhs and Muslims who react violently at a instigating bait.. Most of the Hindus felt bad about 1984 genocide but there were others who justified it by saying” Sikhs need to be taught a lesson”. That shows that the hardliner Hindus were successful in bottling up fear and hatred towards other faiths in their own brethren who are not like them at all. Sikhs and Muslims should react rationally if such baits are thrown by hard liner Hindus. Over time, Hindu hardliners used different methods to mitigate the influence of other faiths on the society. One of them is to misinterpret the scriptures and giving quote resembling with Sikhism by digging old scriptures of their own, and they never admit that same idea in the given quotes, have been kept buried with corrupt ideas over centuries in their own back yard. All people who want to live in peace do not advocate their religion as the most superior one. Let people judge which one is better and suits to them more than the others. If it happens, hardliners will lose their game which they want to carry on. It is not only politicians; it is the ones who have influence on the masses, to please those, politicians also play in their hands. Sikh hard liners are just helping these hate mongers through their over reactions towards incidents which can be handled with civility.
    All Sikhs should regard members of all faiths their own bothers and sisters because that is what Gurbani advocates. Hardliners are given in to habit of inciting others to get emotional on religious issues, answer to that is to give back them reasonable rebuttal or refute with their own fantasies. Sikhs should know that their thinking is designed by the Guru to take arms only if the life is in danger; verbal abuse was intelligently ignored during Gurus times. Now let’s analyze some points that become a reason of academic and physical conflicts between people of different faiths.

    Hindu Scriptures and Sikh Scriptures

    Sikhs will see, from Vedas and other scriptures quotes are given to show that what Sikhs claim as their new faith actually was defined thousands years ago in Vedas or Vashnava. Gurbani fairly answers these claims in better way; so let’s have a look at these quotes:

    "O men, that All-pervading Being alone is the Lord of the imperishable matter, the material cause of the world; and of the soul and is yet distinct from both. He is the Creator of the universe, the past, the present and the future." Yajur Veda 21:2
    "He Who has created this multiform universe, and is the cause of its sustenance as well as dissolution, the Lord of the universe in whom the whole world exists, is sustained and then resolved into elementary condition, is the Supreme Spirit. Know Him, O man, to be your God and believe in no other as the Creator of the universe." Rig Veda 10: 126,8.

    Read carefully” Lord of imperishable matter”, in Sikhism, there is nothing imperishable but HIM, so Sikhism contradicts on this. Also note down the word” rahim” in the following Guru Vaak, it is an example how The Lord is addressed with so many words. This word cannot be ignored when some take” Gopal” as Krishan.
    ਸਭਦੁਨੀਆਵਣਜਾਵਣੀਮੁਕਾਮੁਏਕੁਰਹੀਮੁ॥੬॥
Sabẖḏunī āvaṇ jāvṇī mukām ėk rahīm. ||6||
    Mukaam= permanent, imperishable
All the world comes and goes-only the Merciful Lord is permanent. ||6||
ਮ1

    All the matter seen and used to create all we see, it is neither permanent, nor imperishable as per quote from Yajur Veda 212. Science admits even every thing is inching towards the end.

    To be continued...
     
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  3. pk70

    pk70
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    The Lord of the universe in whom the whole world exists, ( rig Veda 10 126. *

    Obviously whole world exists in Him, Sikhism expresses the Lord as permeating force, the matter He created perishes; His force goes out of it and but it remains imperishable. Right in this context, Sikhism promotes equality of all regardless the gender or birth {In other scriptures they boast to be the first one” there are “shudras”(low class) and woman is compared to a “shoe” to be changed at convenient} If whole world exists in Him, in what name discrimination is done. The most disgusting and human disgracing behavior comes from the knowledgeable of Vedas just as whites abused blacks in slave trade. What is the missing link here? On what basis people are boasting about their old wisdom when characteristics of humanity were crushed long time ago leaving it incompetent to date. .Religion is not matter of bookish knowledge, if it is not practiced; it remains a locked magic box unable to serve the society for good cause.

    The Rest
    If these scriptures talk about the Infinte Lord, Guru Ji verifies it and states that the readers of Vedas actually ignored it. Here is verification of that fact along with that statement about the Vedas of being ignored by their own readers.
    Verification
    ਪੂਰਨਪੁਰਖਅਚੁਤਅਬਿਨਾਸੀਜਸੁਵੇਦਪੁਰਾਣੀਗਾਇਆPūran purak acu abināsī jas vė purāī gāiā.The Vedas and the Puraanas sing the Praises of the Perfect, Unchanging, and Imperishable Primal Lord.( Mehl 5

    STATEMENT ABOUT VEDAS BEING IGNORED BY THEIR READERS
    ਵੇਦਮਹਿਨਾਮੁਉਤਮੁਸੋਸੁਣਹਿਨਾਹੀਫਿਰਹਿਜਿਉਬੇਤਾਲਿਆā meh nām uam so sueh nāhī fireh jio bėāliā.In the Vedas, the ultimate objective is the Naam, the Name of the Lord; but they do not hear this, and they wander around like demons.3 (SGGS 919)
    So, yes, Gurbani admits that the Truth was explained in Vedas and it doesn’t address them as empty of the Lord but unfortunately Vedas’ followers didn’t follow the Truth, instead mislead the people about that Truth (even after the Sikhs Gurus and even now same game goes on). Gurbani advises followers to regard actually all religious scriptures as of His creation because all is His play; however, it stresses to believe only in Guru not others, that thing only detours it from the importance of Vedas and other scriptures in concept of a Sikh learning. Forcibly attaching Sikhism to Vedanta or Santana etc sectarian ideology is nothing but ignorance in context of Guru Message. If it were true, Gurus would have repeatedly instructed followers to learn Sanskrit and learn more from Vedas. All the references are used to address the importance of the Lord who created all the shows of the past and the present (to be continued). Look at the following, all religious scriptures are referred as His own play.
    ਕੁਦਰਤਿਵੇਦਪੁਰਾਣਕਤੇਬਾਕੁਦਰਤਿਸਰਬਵੀਚਾਰੁKuḏraṯ purāṇ kaṯėbā kuḏraṯ sarab vīcār.By His Power the Vedas and the Puraanas exist, and the Holy Scriptures of the Jewish, Christian and Islamic religions. By His Power all deliberations exist.
    Here is an instruction to follow only the Guru, Sikhs Guru is Guru Shabad.
    ਜਿਨਸਬਦਿਗੁਰੂਸੁਣਿਮੰਨਿਆਤਿਨਮਨਿਧਿਆਇਆਹਰਿਸੋਇJin saba gurū su maniā in man ḏẖiāiā har soė.Those who hear and believe in the Word of the Guru's Shabad, meditate on the Lord in their minds. (SGGS 27)
    About the fake self declared Guru, there is warning in Gurubani
    ਗੁਰੂਜਿਨਾਕਾਅੰਧੁਲਾਚੇਲੇਨਾਹੀਠਾਉGurū jinā kā anḏẖulā cėlė nāhī ṯẖāo.Those disciples whose spiritual teacher is blind, shall not find their place of rest.(SGGS 58)
    So True Guru shows HIM, and Guru Shabad is about nothing but HIM
    ਊਚਅਪਾਰਅਗੋਚਰਥਾਨਾਓਹੁਮਹਲੁਗੁਰੂਦੇਖਾਈਜੀਉŪc apār agocar thānā oh mahal gurū ėkāī jīo. ||3||His Place is lofty, infinite and unfathomable; the Guru has shown me that palace. ||3|| ( SGGS 101)
    If one fails to see HIM, obviously Guru is not followed properly; practicing academic muscles exercises is nothing literally in the field of Spirituality.
    This also includes that Gurbani inspires followers to meditate on none but HIM. So the claim of hardliner Hindus that God revealed them truth first than any one else, proves that even after learning that truth, still they are a cause of tearing apart Indian society which should have been an example for the world to follow. That moment was never allowed to happen till Guru Nanak showed up on this world stag ( not at that level Guru Nanak did). That revealed truth first time to them, as they boast about, has done nothing to change their behavior over centuries. Humanity has been tortured bit by bit for centuries due to their selfishness. Let’s take one example of the biggest advocate of Vedas, Daya Nand, he writes in His book, Satyarth parkash, under instruction to mother to raise children
    “Jealousy and malice they should not harbor” Daya Nand
    Sounds very inspiring, doesn’t it?, now read comments of this guy on Muslims
    From Masooda, the Swami went to Raipur, where he stayed for three weeks, giving updesh from time to time. On learning from the Thakur (Hari Singh) himself that his Vazier was a Muhammadan, the Swami observed, in presence of several Muslim gentlemen (one of these being the younger brother of the absent Vazier and acting for him), the Muhammadans should not be entrusted with the management of the State, as they came from the womb of a dasi (slave-girl).
    Swami Dayanand ~ “Look into your Sacred Quran. Isral, also called Abrahim, had two wives, - one of them, the wedded one, called Sarah, and the other, a slave-girl, went by the name of Hajra. The Europeans are from the womb of Sarah, and you from that of Hajra. How can, then, there be any doubts as to your being dasiputra?”( site singhvj.com) His words on Guru Nanak I am avoiding to post as they display a lack of open-mindedness and spirituality.
    What does it prove? Preach good stuff and live as mind guides and never learn from wisdom of the religion. This robe of hypocrisy is only what they have been wearing for centuries.


    To be continued
     
  4. pk70

    pk70
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    Point I am trying to make it is this, the guy tried to prove the world that only in that corner of world, Vedas were revealed, all others have no importance, how that truth was made a quagmire of mind games, he never addressed.. They never thought for a moment that there were some civilizations which were eradicated with natural disasters and they could have an older revelation than these guys had. A religious person, if refuses to respect other faiths, himself/herself commits spiritual suicide. It also gives hint that they just use religion as a weapon to divide the society to keep century old game going on.
    Such kind of attacks are going on a website of hardliners on almost all religions and only Veda ideology is proved as scientific, add to it there is a claim that those science theories were already found in Vedas which were discovered by science in twentieth century. I wonder why Vedas couldn’t produce scientists like Newton if that gossip is considered to be true for a moment. Fanatics start teaching science out of religion without understanding that religion is not scientific ideology but a revelation of the absolute Truth-The Creator. It deals with His relations with the people and the nature they live in. Science becomes a part of the religion as His gift. Sikhs should try to negate their false claims with the teachings of Gurbani that inspire not to involve in futile debate with ignorant. None knows about Him completely, and there is no need of boasting of any kind; in Jap Ji, Guru Nanak makes clear that those boasting people came and went without knowing about His infinity. Sikhs should never curse other scriptures as other hardliners do but can refute the false claim. All Hindus are brethren and so are the Muslims, Christians and people of other faiths. Hardliners of any faith are those who are gone bank corrupt in spirituality. There is no place in Sikhism for fanatics, if some intend to defend their religion, if the lives are not threatened, intellectual feed back on the concerned issue can be enough. To be continued
     
  5. pk70

    pk70
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    Here is few ridiculous statements float around on singhvj.com
    On Islam
    Oppose - It is unjust of Allah to deprive millions born before the revelation of the Q'uran of its 'divine wisdom'. An injustice which cannot be the work of a Compassionate and Merciful God.

    On Sikhism
    Did this God forget to reveal this message in the beginning so that all in His Creation could have benefited from it? It is difficult to believe that the God of Truth hid this truth from millions of souls before Nanak. To restrict revelation to Nanak's time is highly erroneous. www.singhvj.com
    Now this is an example of ignorance of this guy who foolishly questions two religions about their revelations. Gurbani states that many people before Sikhism, merge with the Lord by following Guru, where does it say that first time Lord has revealed His message to Guru Nanak only? Why this lie is being promoted? It is a sheer display of a shallow knowledge of other religions and a false claim to be the first one to know Him. Isn’t necessary to first know HIM before questioning others? In concept of incarnation of God, Daya Nand answers in a way which goes totally against the conviction of His Hindu brethren
    “21. Does God incarnate or not? 

A.- No; because it is said in the Yajur Veda. "He is unborn." Again "He overspreads all." He is pure, is never born and never takes on a human form." It is clear from these quotations that God is never born.
    Q. But Krishna says in the Gita, "Whenever there is decay of virtue, I take on a human form." GITA 4: 7. What is your answer to this?
    “Being opposed to the Veda, it cannot be held to be an authority. Though it is possible that Krishna, being very virtuous and being extremely anxious to further the cause of righteousness, might have wished that he would like to be born again and again at different times to protect the good and punish the wicked. if such was the case, there is no harm in it; because 'whatever the good and the great possess - their wealth, their bodies, aye eve their hearts - is at the service of humanity? In spite of all this Krishna could never be God. “

    Why it is so? Since in Vedas, He is” unborn” Lord Krishna’s claim is reduced to be a wish. Go and ask mainstream Hindus if it is acceptable? It doesn’t matter if it is said; purpose is different, if contradictory things come in Hinduism, it is better to cover it up. Since I do not believe in either Vedas or Bhagwat Geeta, I have no concern, but my point is how hardliners stoop low to attack all other religions simply because Vedas were revealed first. They think ( I feel the lost worlds had also revelations) therefore Hinduism is superior. Hindus are believers of Devtas, godds goddesses, Vedas, Puranas, Bhagwat Geeta; Upnishdas, simirities etc, there is no way now to slice off a few from them and come up with one notion that Hindus are followers of Veda only. Gurbani addresses also negative teachings of Vedas that also separates Sikhism from this claim” Sikhism is Hinduism”
    ਵਾਚਹਿਪੁਸਤਕਵੇਦਪੁਰਾਨਾਂvācẖeh pusṯak vė purānāʼn.Some read scriptures, the Vedas and the Puraanas.ਇਕਬਹਿਸੁਨਹਿਸੁਨਾਵਹਿਕਾਨਾਂIk bahi suneh sunāveh kānāʼn.Some sit and listen, and read to others.ਅਜਗਰਕਪਟੁਕਹਹੁਕਿਉਖੁਲ੍ਹ੍ਹੈਬਿਨੁਸਤਿਗੁਰਤਤੁਪਾਇਆ੧੧Ajgar kapat kahhu kio kẖulĥai bin saṯgur ṯaṯ na pāiā. ||11||Tell me, how can the heavy, rigid doors be opened? Without the True Guru, the essence of reality is not realized. ||11|| ( SGGS 1043)
    Gurbani here directs the followers not to pay heed what Vedas says at all but to Guru Shabad
    Induism ਸਲੋਕ ਕਥਾਕਹਾਣੀਬੇਦੀਆਣੀਪਾਪੁਪੁੰਨੁਬੀਚਾਰੁ ਦੇਦੇਲੈਣਾਲੈਲੈਦੇਣਾਨਰਕਿਸੁਰਗਿਅਵਤਾਰ ਉਤਮਮਧਿਮਜਾਤੀਂਜਿਨਸੀਭਰਮਿਭਵੈਸੰਸਾਰੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਬਾਣੀਤਤੁਵਖਾਣੀਗਿਆਨਧਿਆਨਵਿਚਿਆਈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿਆਖੀਗੁਰਮੁਖਿਜਾਤੀਸੁਰਤੀਕਰਮਿਧਿਆਈ ਹੁਕਮੁਸਾਜਿਹੁਕਮੈਵਿਚਿਰਖੈਹੁਕਮੈਅੰਦਰਿਵੇਖੈ ਨਾਨਕਅਗਹੁਹਉਮੈਤੁਟੈਤਾਂਕੋਲਿਖੀਐਲੇਖੈ
    Salok mehlā 2.Kathā kahāī bėīʼn āī pāp punn bīcār.ė ė laiā lai lai ėā narak surag avār.Uṯam maḏẖim jāīʼn jinsī bẖaram bẖavai sansār.Amriṯ baṇī ṯaṯ vakẖāī giān ḏẖiān vic āī.Gurmukẖ ākī gurmukī surīʼn karam ḏẖiāī.Hukam sāj hukmai vicẖ rakẖai hukmai anḏar vėkẖai.Nānak agahu haumai ṯutai ṯāʼn ko likīai lėkẖai. ||1||
    Slok 2nd Guru.The Vedas have brought legends and tales and they expound vice and virtue.What men give as gratis they receive and what they receive as gratis they give. According to their deeds, they are born in hell or heaven.Reading them the world wanders in the doubt of high and low castes and classes.The ambrosial Gurbani speaks of the Real Thing and has been revealed unto the Guru in the state of Divine Knowledge and meditation.The Guru-wards utter it, the Guru-wards realise it and by God's grace, the divines ponder over it,Creating the world in His will, the Lord keeps it in His will and in His will He beholds it.If before he dies, man's ego is stilled, O Nanak, then becomes he acceptable in God's court.

    To be continued
     
  6. pk70

    pk70
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    Here is another example that clearly states some revered as Gods are not worthy of importance to follow them at all, that also is an example of an outright rejection of others but Guru and the Lord. Foolishly they attach Shiva with Sikh Gurus; here is what Guru says about Shiva.
    ਬ੍ਰਹਮੈਬੇਦਬਾਣੀਪਰਗਾਸੀਮਾਇਆਮੋਹਪਸਾਰਾ ਮਹਾਦੇਉਗਿਆਨੀਵਰਤੈਘਰਿਆਪਣੈਤਾਮਸੁਬਹੁਤੁਅਹੰਕਾਰਾ
    Through Brahma, the hymns of the Vedas were revealed, however, he extended the love of mammon.The seer Shiva remain absorbed in himself and he is engrossed in excessive wrath and pride.
    ਕਿਸਨੁਸਦਾਅਵਤਾਰੀਰੂਧਾਕਿਤੁਲਗਿਤਰੈਸੰਸਾਰਾ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿਗਿਆਨਿਰਤੇਜੁਗਅੰਤਰਿਚੂਕੈਮੋਹਗੁਬਾਰਾ
    Vishnu( Krisan) is ever busy in reincarnating himself. So by whose association is the world to be emancipated?The Guru-ward are imbued with gnosis in this age and they are rid of the darkness of worldly love.
    ਸਤਗੁਰਸੇਵਾਤੇਨਿਸਤਾਰਾਗੁਰਮੁਖਿਤਰੈਸੰਸਾਰਾ ਸਾਚੈਨਾਇਰਤੇਬੈਰਾਗੀਪਾਇਨਿਮੋਖਦੁਆਰਾ
    By the True Guru's service, emancipation, is attained, and through the Guru, the mortal crosses the world ocean.The world-renouncers are imbued with the True Name and they attain the door of salvation.
    ਏਕੋਸਚੁਵਰਤੈਸਭਅੰਤਰਿਸਭਨਾਕਰੇਪ੍ਰਤਿਪਾਲਾ ਨਾਨਕਇਕਸੁਬਿਨੁਮੈਅਵਰੁਜਾਣਾਸਭਨਾਦੀਵਾਨੁਦਇਆਲਾ
    The unique True Lord is contained within all and He cherishes everyone.Nanak, without the one God, I know not another. He is the merciful master of all.
    Also it rejects Vishnu’s reincarnation is useful for the people, as they say he is busy in going through incarnations he cannot be of any help. Foolishly some Sikhs take an illusionary bait to believe that Guru Nanak was incarnation of Vishnu. This Guru Vaak proves it is a big lie to fool the Sikhs
    Should Sikhs despise Vedas or Scriptures as some fanatics do, no, not at all, it is all His play, The Sikh should pay more attention to their own deeds to become worthy of HIM. They should remain involved in Gurbani. Is Sikhism is the only way to realize Him? No, He revealed Ultimate Truth time to time in every corner of the world in different form. None is inferior or superior because His watch over the world is totally different from the poor human beings. We are where He wants to keep us. When one displays hate towards others, outright he/she disqualifies himself/herself to be a lover of Lord, if one shows ego, he or she shows disrespect to the Creator. Sikhs are repeatedly advised against it in Gurbani. If hate mongers are followed, no difference remains between the hate mongers and the ones who mimic them in reaction to their hate.
    References to understand sarcastic
    If the following shabad is studied, it becomes clear that in Gurbani, worship of only The Infinite Lord is advocated, here as Pandit is addressed, his own religious scripture is referred to tell him who actually should be meditated.
    ਪ੍ਰਣਵੈਨਾਮਾਇਉਕਹੈਗੀਤਾ (SGGS874)Paravai nāmā io kahai gīā. ||5||2||6||Thus prays Naam Dayv, and so says the Gita as well. ||5||2||6||ਭਗਤਨਾਮਦੇਵਜੀ
    ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿਮਧੁਸੂਦਨੁਨਿਸਤਾਰੇ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿਸੰਗੀਕ੍ਰਿਸਨਮੁਰਾਰੇ ਦਇਆਲਦਮੋਦਰੁਗੁਰਮੁਖਿਪਾਈਐਹੋਰਤੁਕਿਤੈਭਾਤੀਜੀਉ
    Gurmukẖ maḏẖusūḏan nisṯārė.Gurmukẖ sangī krisan murārė.aiāl ḏamoḏar gurmukẖ pāīai horaṯ kiṯai na bẖāī jīo. ||2||
    Through the Guru God the killer of Madh demon, delivers the mortal.By Guru's grace God the enemy of ego becomes man's comrade.By Guru's meditation the merciful master with a string round His belly is obtained and not by any other means.
    If one merely looking at the word” Krishan’ and translating it as Krishan Yadav, it becomes distortion of Guru Message because if it is that Krishan, then why some thing totally different is said about Krishan in the following and think, how chandraavali seducer can be The Lord of universe as Gurbani says.
    ਜੁਜਮਹਿਜੋਰਿਛਲੀਚੰਦ੍ਰਾਵਲਿਕਾਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੁਜਾਦਮੁਭਇਆJuj meh jor cẖẖalī cẖanḏrāval kānĥ krisan jāḏam bẖaiā.In the Jujar Veda, Kaan Krishna of the Yaadva tribe seduced Chandraavali by force.
    In the following, Gurbani states that even that Krishan meditated after falling on feet of Guru as Guru inspired/guided him to do so and as above said( Krishan is busy in incarnating) these incarnating gods were not helpful to realize HIM
    ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨਬਲਭਦ੍ਰੁਗੁਰਪਗਲਗਿਧਿਆਵੈ(165)Krisan balbaaro gur pag lag ḏẖiāvai.Even Krishna and Balbhadar meditated on the Lord, falling at the Guru's Feet.
    Now let’s look at use of Ram in Gurbani. As those who studied Sree Guru Granth Sahib know that the Eternal Lord is addressed with so many names, repeatedly it is expressed that HE permeates in all and doesn’t take birth; if some prevailed names are used, how any one can deny the other qualities of Him like permeating in all, beyond birth, beyond animosity and being immaculate and untainted; so who took birth, even being enlightened one, had to go through apposition and sufferings but the eternal Lord doesn’t because He is immaculate. Why then Guru shabad is used in favor of those who went through birth and death? It just doesn’t add up and it doesn’t make any sense; Kabir ji makes an explicit statement who he meditates on, that applies to all who uses these names for the eternal Lord in Sree Guru Granth Sahib.
    ਸੰਕਟਿਨਹੀਪਰੈਜੋਨਿਨਹੀਆਵੈਨਾਮੁਨਿਰੰਜਨਜਾਕੋਰੇ(SGGS 338)Sankat nahī parai jon nahī āvai nām niranjan jā ko rė.He does not fall into misfortune, and He does not take birth; His Name is the Immaculate Lord.
    ਕਬੀਰਕੋਸੁਆਮੀਐਸੋਠਾਕੁਰੁਜਾਕੈਮਾਈਬਾਪੋਰੇ੧੯੭੦Kabīr ko suāmī aiso ṯẖākur jā kai māī na bāpo rė. ||2||19||70||Kabeer's Lord is such a Lord and Master, who has no mother or father. ||2||19||70||
    When Bhagat ji makes clear cut statement what he meditates on, then why even effort is made to attach other entities to subject of his meditation. If that name, previously popular, is used, look at its application and the context it is used. Here is one another example that many even Sikh readers too slip from the bridge.
    ਮਨਹਿਕੀਜੈਰੋਸੁਜਮਹਿਦੀਜੈਦੋਸੁਨਿਰਮਲਨਿਰਬਾਣਪਦੁਚੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਿਲੀਜੈ ਜਸਰਥਰਾਇਨੰਦੁਰਾਜਾਮੇਰਾਰਾਮਚੰਦੁਪ੍ਰਣਵੈਨਾਮਾਤਤੁਰਸੁਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁਪੀਜੈ
    Maneh na kījai ros jameh na ījai ḏos nirmal nirbāṇ paḏ cẖīneh lījai.Jasrath rāė nan rājā mėrā rām cẖanḏ paraṇvai nāmā ṯaṯ ras amriṯ pījai. ||4||4||
    Do not display anger and do not blame the Death's courier, but understand the immaculate dignity of salvation,humblyprays Namdev, For me His Naam is Ram Chander, the son of king Dasrath and I quaff the quintessence of the immortalizing elixir.
    Namdev is referring to Ram Chand son of Dasrath but also he is saying” tatt ras” the origin of all which can only be used for the unborn eternal Lord because Ram Chandar was created by Tatt Ras and he left the world as the call of the Creators came. Many think Namdev is asking meditate on Ram Chandar; if so then why Namdev writes this, read on
    ਬੇਦਪੁਰਾਨਸਾਸਤ੍ਰਆਨੰਤਾਗੀਤਕਬਿਤਗਾਵਉਗੋ ਅਖੰਡਮੰਡਲਨਿਰੰਕਾਰਮਹਿਅਨਹਦਬੇਨੁਬਜਾਵਉਗੋ
    purān sāsar ānanā gīṯ kabiṯ na gāvogo.Akẖand mandal nirankār meh anha bėn bajāvogo. ||1||
    There are countless Vedas, Puranas and Shastras, I sing not their songs and poetry,In the imperishable region of the Formless Lord, I shall play the celestial strain.
    ਬੈਰਾਗੀਰਾਮਹਿਗਾਵਉਗੋ ਸਬਦਿਅਤੀਤਅਨਾਹਦਿਰਾਤਾਆਕੁਲਕੈਘਰਿਜਾਉਗੋਰਹਾਉ ( NOTE aakul= aa= without, kul= family lineage)
    Bairāgī rāmeh gāvogo.Sabaḏ aṯī anāhaā ākul kai gar jāugo. ||1|| rahāo.
    Becoming desire-free, I sing the Lord's praise.Imbued with the love of the detached and indestructible Lord, I shall go to the mansion of the Unalienable one. Pause.



    TO be continued
     
  7. pk70

    pk70
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    Actually Ram, a name given to eternal Lord, is defined in Gurbani so that people should not get confused with Ram Chandra of Ayudhya, though still they do, read the following.
    ਐਸਾਮੇਰਾਰਾਮਰਹਿਆਭਰਪੂਰਿ( SGGS 165)Aisā mėrā rām rahiā barpūr.Such is my Lord, who is all-pervading everywhere.
    Also look the same word is beautified with “ Har” and” Rai”, give me any Historical fact where Ram Chandara of Dasrath was called “ Har Ram Rai”
    Guru Message must be understood in its totality not in parts. The references given in Sree Guru Granth Sahib, have meanings but different.
    ਇਸੁਗੜਮਹਿਹਰਿਰਾਮਰਾਇਹੈਕਿਛੁਸਾਦੁਪਾਵੈਧੀਠਾ( SGGS 171)Is ga meh har rām rāė hai kicẖẖ na pāvai ḏẖīṯẖā.Within this body-fortress is the Lord, the Sovereign Lord King, but the stubborn ones do not find the taste.
    Who is this “inkankaar”? It is the Eternal Lord for whom, First Nanak used this expression
    Please read
    ਰਾਮਨਾਮਜਪਿਏਕੰਕਾਰੁ( SGGS 185)Rām nām jap ėkankār. You chant the Name of the One and Only Lord.
    In Vaar Asa, it is made clear that Ram of Ayudhya is not even comparable to the Ram that permeates in all,
    ਨਾਨਕਨਿਰਭਉਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁਹੋਰਿਕੇਤੇਰਾਮਰਵਾਲNānak nirbao nirankār hor kėė rām ravāl.O Nanak, the Lord is fearless and formless; myriads of others, like Rama, are mere dust before Him.( SGGS 464) (Note= rawaal= dust)
    I wonder why some keep distorting the message Guru Nanak expressed with so explicitly. As these words are used to address to the eternal Lord, there are others words ( Raheem, Allah) too used in this context and should never be taken as addressed to those who came and left the world as per HIS call. Being a member of a group, why a group –agenda is followed instead of following Guru Message in totality? A Sikh doesn’t belong to a group but to Guru, period. Gurbani addresses Muslims too and it inspires to be better Muslims. Guru States that Nanak panth is neither Hinduism nor Islam. It is a determined duty of hardliners to ridicule other faiths just to justify their desperation over a doctrine that unites the society instead of dividing it. Araya smaji Daya Nand and his followers crossed limits of decency; for them, Aryans are superior. Their ignorance remains in high gear even today’s Global world. If Islam advocated ONE Lord first for the general public, why they are just interested in proving that in Vedas, that fact was revealed first” So what? It was kept hidden from the commoners. Who is leader in the car industry today and who made it first? Besides, how any one can claim that Lord revealed The Truth to certain people who would keep it hidden, we are fully aware that many civilized world were lost, they might have that “Truth” too. Actually these people are not out there to teach any “Truth” but to fulfill their illusionary superiority. They are there to promote hatred. Any one today, if calls himself or herself superior in spirituality, disqualifies to be called spiritual. Superior spirituality is a display of a balanced mind; most of people are not intellectual enough to understand it. Sikhs are taught to follow Guru only but respect the rest as they respect their beliefs. We do not give weigh on superiority. None is superior as all are acting as per His Hukam. Sikhs have a clear message to follow” Nam Japna, kirat Karni, and wand shakna( Meditate on the Lord, work hard and share with others who are not enough fortunate to have that.) Sikhs do not believe in dividing societies in the name of race, caste or religion. If you see Sikhs doing that, obviously they are very far away from Gurbani teachings. Sikhism’s founder traveled all over to do dialogue with others regardless of the religions of the people or the area they lived in. Unlike others, he just asked all to be devotees only of the Creator. In Sree Guru Granth Sahib, it is written that the ones are imbued with HIM become like Him.
    To be continued
     
  8. pk70

    pk70
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    If one wants to realize Him, he/she should develop the qualities He has like” beyond animosity, beyond fear, caring for all.” So one should be align with His Ordinance, ready to defend the helpless and the weak, no favors or opposition just because of love and hate”(, ਸੋਰਠਿ ਮਹਲਾ ਦੁਤੁਕੇ ਜਉਲਉਭਾਉਅਭਾਉਇਹੁਮਾਨੈਤਉਲਉਮਿਲਣੁਦੂਰਾਈ ਆਨਆਪਨਾਕਰਤਬੀਚਾਰਾਤਉਲਉਬੀਚੁਬਿਖਾਈ(SGGS 609)

    Soraṯẖ mehlā 5 ḏuṯukė.Jao lao bẖāo abāo ih mānai ṯao lao milaṇ ḏūrāī.Ān āpnā kara bīcārā ao lao bīcẖ bikẖāī. ||1||
    Sorath 5th Guru. Dotukas.As long as this man believes in love for one and hate for others, so long it is difficult for him to meet God.So long as man discriminates between, him-self and another, till then there remains and difference between him and the Lord. )
    If one intends to follow His Ordinance, controlling of ego- inflected mind is mandatory. History states, the Sikhs stood up against the oppressors but never violated Guru’s orders of not to harbor animosity even during the war, in today’s civilization, all out of control actions against humanity are considered war crimes, Sikhs were taught this long time ago. So that should be kept in mind today too. Sikhs cannot be terrorists as per Order of Guru. They have Gurbani that takes all in its lap. Gurbani, in reality does not advertise only Sikh Gurus, it clearly states that the Guru is necessary to know HIM but make sure Guru is true. I have no problem who oppose hate mongering against Hindus as whole; however, I feel wonder, why only” against Hindus” stand, why not against all” stand” is taken.
    That is what Guru inspires to do, love and peace for all.
    ਵਿਸਟਗੁਰੂਮੈਪਾਇਆਜਿਨਿਹਰਿਪ੍ਰਭੁਦਿਤਾਜੋੜਿ313visat gurū mai pāiā jin har parabiā jo. ||1||I have found the Guru, the Divine Intermediary, who has united me with the Lord God. ||1||


    If one is not guided to the infinite, the inexpressible and the one who permeates in all, that Guru cannot be true, if a kind of shop is opened to make money, to impress others, to curse others who are in disagreement, that individual can declare himself a Guru but he could not be, Guru unites the souls to the Creator. Sikh who does the same job, is also addressed as a Guru because the motive is to unite with Him
    ਗੁਰੂਸਿਖੁਸਿਖੁਗੁਰੂਹੈਏਕੋਗੁਰਉਪਦੇਸੁਚਲਾਏ ਰਾਮਨਾਮਮੰਤੁਹਿਰਦੈਦੇਵੈਨਾਨਕਮਿਲਣੁਸੁਭਾਏ ( 444)
    .Guru's Sikh and Sikh's Guru, are one and the same and both propagate Guru's mission.The spell of the Lord's Name, the Guru enshrines in the Sikh's mind, O Nanak and he easily meets the Lord.
    So Gurbani advocates a purpose of uniting with the Creator. How a Sikh becomes Guru? It is a part of Sikhism, Second Nanak was a Sikh bestowed upon with Guruship by the First Nanak and Guru Message was carried on, Sikh must carry on Guru Message by living Guru Message while preaching. Sree Guru Granth Sahib concentrates dominantly on The Creator beyond death and birth, advocates only to be in love with Him while expressing extreme need of a revered Guru who shows HIM within. Keeping Guru’s name in heart is keeping HIM in heart. Every thing is provided within to seek Him, along with these good things, there are those within that hinder this process of union; however, Guru continuously wakes the seeker up and warns not to sleep a distracting sleep.
    All this is said just to explain that the Guru Message doesn’t stop at references. Sikhs “bhagati”is limited to the Creator; Sikhs reverence is circled around the Guru. Regardless the words used as references, metaphors, the essence should not be stretched to some thing that doesn’t have any bearing in context of Guru Message. Now look into the following Gurbani quotes that say that the one who are imbued with the Lord, become like Him. Guru became like the Lord, so there was no difference remained. That is why Guru Shabad is eternal. It is vast application of a state of mind that boosts the identity of the seekers to the highest.
    ਆਸਾਮਹਲਾ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਵਿਸਰੈਨਾਮੁਸੇਕਿਨੇਹਿਆ ਭੇਦੁਜਾਣਹੁਮੂਲਿਸਾਂਈਜੇਹਿਆ 397
    Āsā mehlā 5.Jinĥā na visrai nām sė kinėhiā.Bẖė na jāhu mūl sāʼnī jėhiā. ||1||
    Asa 5th Guru.What are they like who forget not the Name?They are like the Lord Know that there is absolutely no difference between the two.



    To be continued
     
  9. pk70

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    MORE READ ON
    ਜਿਨਿਜਾਤਾਸੋਤਿਸਹੀਜੇਹਾJin jāā so is hī jėhā.One who knows the Lord, becomes like Him.

ਅਤਿਨਿਰਮਾਇਲੁਸੀਝਸਿਦੇਹਾAṯ nirmāil sījẖas ḏėhā.He becomes absolutely immaculate, and his body is sanctified.

ਰਹਸੀਰਾਮੁਰਿਦੈਇਕਭਾਇRahsī rām riḏai ik bẖāė.His heart is happy, in love with the One Lord.

ਅੰਤਰਿਸਬਦੁਸਾਚਿਲਿਵਲਾਇ੧੦ ( SGGS 931)Anṯar sabaḏ sāc liv lāė. ||10||He lovingly centers his attention deep within upon the True Word of the Shabad. ||10||
    After reading the following if some one tries to lead to worship of “Sargun Sroop”, obviously is ignoring what is addressed in Sree Guru Granth Sahib.
    ਬੇਦਕਤੇਬਸੰਸਾਰਹਭਾਹੂੰਬਾਹਰਾ ਨਾਨਕਕਾਪਾਤਿਸਾਹੁਦਿਸੈਜਾਹਰਾ੧੦੫397
    ḏ kaṯėb sansār habā hūʼn bāhrā.Nānak kā pāisāhu isai jāhrā. ||4||3||105||
    The Lord is beyond the Vedas and the four religious books of the Muslim, Christian and Jews.Nanak's King is seen manifest, everywhere.
    ਸੋਈਕੰਮੁਕਮਾਇਜਿਤੁਮੁਖੁਉਜਲਾ ਸੋਈਲਗੈਸਚਿਜਿਸੁਤੂੰਦੇਹਿਅਲਾ 397
    Soī kamm kamāė jiṯ mukẖ ujlā.Soī lagai sacẖ jis ṯūʼneh alā. ||2||
    Do that work, by which thy countenance be bright.O God, He alone, whom Thou givest, becomes attached to truth.
    Some using references in Sree Guru Granth Sahib (about almost all prevailed stories about various sects and religions) and shamelessly try to convert Guru Nanak into Vashnava, or a borrower from Vedas,it shows their sheer ignorance and a display of very limited ability to understand poetic form of Gurbani. If these references are taken in support of Vashnava and Vedas, why Guru Arjan himself declares Sikhism’s separation from Hinduism, please read that fact, if any one over looking this declaration of the Guru, there is no doubt the person who tries to prove Sikhism as a sect of Hinduism has obviously an ax to grind.
    ਪੂਜਾਕਰਉਨਿਵਾਜਗੁਜਾਰਉPūjā karao na nivāj gujārao.I do not perform Hindu worship services, nor do I offer the Muslim prayers.ਏਕਨਿਰੰਕਾਰਲੇਰਿਦੈਨਮਸਕਾਰਉĖk nirankār lė riai namaskārao. ||3||I have taken the One Formless Lord into my heart; I humbly worship Him there. ||3||ਨਾਹਮਹਿੰਦੂਮੁਸਲਮਾਨNā ham hinū na musalmān.I am not a Hindu, nor am I a Muslim.ਅਲਹਰਾਮਕੇਪਿੰਡੁਪਰਾਨAlah rām kė pind parān. ||4||My body and breath of life belong to Allah - to Raam - the God of both. ||4||







    . How any one can dare to call Sikhs a part of Hindus? They do just because they have no respect for Gurbani. Even during Mogul times, Sikhs were called in official records” Nanak Panthi”. Hindu word is used in Gurbani to address Hindus who do not practice the religion righteous way. After having said that, one thing Sikhs must bear in mind that they should not go against Hindus and all other faiths as well because Sikhis are all about protection of the weak and live in harmony with all regardless their faiths. It is sad that without studying Gurbani in depth, there are some pseudo scholars who say things about Sikhism which are based on assumptions and bad intentions but not on the Truth Guru Message says. If living in harmony is not made a first preference, Sikhs may lose the beautiful Message practiced by their Gurus over centuries. All contributors to Sre Guru Granth Sahib have divorced themselves from any prevailed religion or sect that is the bottom line. One get spiritual boost from mediating on Nirguna, the Lord that permeates in all but still a formless, in the following, nothing is made up, all pure Message of our revered Gurus
    ਜੋਜਨੁਤੇਰਾਜਪੇਨਾਉ ਸਭਿਫਲਪਾਏਨਿਹਚਲਗੁਣਗਾਉ
    The man, who utters Thy Name,O Lord, obtains all fruits, and becoming firm, he sings Thine praises.
    ਸੋਪਿਰੁਮੇਰਾਏਕੁਹੈਏਕਸੁਸਿਉਲਿਵਲਾਇ ਨਾਨਕਜੇਸੁਖੁਲੋੜਹਿਕਾਮਣੀਹਰਿਕਾਨਾਮੁਮੰਨਿਵਸਾਇ੧੧੩੩428
    That Beloved of mine is only one and I bear love with one alone.Nanak, if the damsel desires peace, the should then enshrine God's Name in her mind.
    ਆਸਾਮਹਲਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਤੇਗੁਣਊਪਜੈਜਾਪ੍ਰਭੁਮੇਲੈਸੋਇ ਸਹਜੇਨਾਮੁਧਿਆਈਐਗਿਆਨੁਪਰਗਟੁਹੋਇ
    Asa 3rd Guru.When that Lord causes us to meet the True Guru, We obtain merits from him.By remembering the Name with mental poise, Divine Knowledge is manifested.

    Listening to Guru only will separate you from the crowd deep into duality and confusions, at his door is His NAAM

    G. Singh
     
  10. Sinister

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    i like your socio-historical approach...in defining sikhi and sikhism

    "god willing" keep posting...looks solid and informative

    cheers :p
     
  11. dalbirk

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    Very Very well written post Pk Ji , tremendous effort & very original one . I hope this post of urs is propagated at as many forums as possible . I sincerely believe this effort is not the last one & results into a true master piece book something in the league of ' HUM HINDU NAHIN' by Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha . A very fitting reply to all hate mongering Arya Samajis ( Dayanand Lovers ) & RSS diehards .
     
  12. Pearl

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    :up: Very good and Informative written. Please keep posting such articles that gives us knowledge about the true Sikhi. May God bless you to show the right path to new learners or the forum members. :happy:
     
  13. spnadmin

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    I am in admiration of how broad and reflective the articles are pk70 ji. Thank you for starting this thread.
     
  14. mkm

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    Respected PK70ji, Very informative and actually concept of Sikhi brought up. This article makes Sikhi understand better and removes confusion. The words used for HIM (God) in Gurbani are commonly mistaken, are made clear. Many doubts are clear by reading this post. There is no place for fanatics in Sikhism. Well said :
    Sikhs should try to negate their false claims with the teachings of Gurbani that inspire not to involve in futile debate with ignorant. None knows about Him completely, and there is no need of boasting of any kind; in Jap Ji, Guru Nanak makes clear that those boasting people came and went without knowing about His infinity. Sikhs should never curse other scriptures as other hardliners do but can refute the false claim.
    The Sikh should pay more attention to their own deeds to become worthy of HIM. They should remain involved in Gurbani. Is Sikhism is the only way to realize Him? No, He revealed Ultimate Truth time to time in every corner of the world in different form. None is inferior or superior because His watch over the world is totally different from the poor human beings. We are where He wants to keep us. When one displays hate towards others, outright he/she disqualifies himself/herself to be a lover of Lord, if one shows ego, he or she shows disrespect to the Creator. Sikhs are repeatedly advised against it in Gurbani. If hate mongers are followed, no difference remains between the hate mongers and the ones who mimic them in reaction to their hate.

    All Sikhs should regard members of all faiths their own bothers and sisters because that is what Gurbani advocates. Hardliners are given in to habit of inciting others to get emotional on religious issues, answer to that is to give back them reasonable rebuttal or refute with their own fantasies. Sikhs should know that their thinking is designed by the Guru to take arms only if the life is in danger; verbal abuse was intelligently ignored during Gurus times.

    Sikhs are taught to follow Guru only but respect the rest as they respect their beliefs. We do not give weigh on superiority. None is superior as all are acting as per His Hukam. Sikhs have a clear message to follow” Nam Japna, kirat Karni, and wand shakna( Meditate on the Lord, work hard and share with others who are not enough fortunate to have that.) Sikhs do not believe in dividing societies in the name of race, caste or religion. If you see Sikhs doing that, obviously they are very far away from Gurbani teachings. Sikhism’s founder traveled all over to do dialogue with others regardless of the religions of the people or the area they lived in. Unlike others, he just asked all to be devotees only of the Creator. In Sree Guru Granth Sahib, it is written that the ones are imbued with HIM become like Him. Listening to Guru only will separate you from the crowd deep into duality and confusions at his door is His NAAM”:happy::yes:
     

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