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Slight Confusion

Discussion in 'Questions and Answers' started by xlnc, Dec 30, 2012.

  1. xlnc

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    Aug 8, 2012
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    Hello all

    I've been reading on other forums and I came across someone who said the teachings of sikhism are contradictory. He quoted the following from gurbani

    Look at Bhagat Kabir's bani
    ਕਮਲਾਪਤਿ ਕਵਲਾ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਨਾਂ ॥੩॥
    कमलापति कवला नही जानां ॥३॥
    Vishnu the Lord of Lakshmi and Lakshmi herself - none of them know the Lord. ||3||

    But as u can see in Guru Arjun's statement here
    ਬਿਨਵੰਤਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਮੇਰੀ ਆਸ ਪੂਰਨ ਮਿਲੇ ਸ੍ਰੀਧਰ ਗੁਣ ਨਿਧਾਨ ॥੪॥੧॥੧੪॥
    बिनवंति नानक मेरी आस पूरन मिले स्रीधर गुण निधान ॥४॥१॥१४॥
    Prays Nanak, my hopes are fulfilled; I have met the Lord, the Lord of Lakshmi, the treasure of excellence. ||4||1||14||

    Look at Bhagat Sain's statements
    ਵਾਰਨੇ ਜਾਉ ਕਮਲਾ ਪਤੀ ॥੧॥
    वारने जाउ कमला पती ॥१॥
    I am a sacrifice to the Lord of Lakshmi. ||1||

    Again Guru Arjan's statements
    ਮੁਕੰਦ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਲਖਮੀ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥
    मुकंद मनोहर लखमी नाराइण ॥
    Liberator, Enticing Lord, Lord of Lakshmi, Supreme Lord God.

    Bhagat Kabir
    ਜਹ ਪਉੜੇ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਕਮਲਾ ਕੰਤ ॥੪॥
    जह पउड़े स्री कमला कंत ॥४॥
    The Supreme Lord, the Lord of Lakshmi dwells there. ||4||

    Guru Nanak Dev's
    ਮਿਹਰਵਾਨ ਮਧੁਸੂਦਨ ਮਾਧੌ ਐਸੀ ਸਕਤਿ ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਰੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
    मिहरवान मधुसूदन माधौ ऐसी सकति तुम्हारी ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
    O Merciful Lord, Destroyer of demons, Lord of Lakshmi, such is Your Power - Your Shakti.



    If the vishnu, lord of lakshmi does not know the lord then how can vishnu be the supreme lord (in red)

    Hope you reply! :)
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    #1 xlnc, Dec 30, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2012
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  3. Ishna

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    My barely educated suggestion is that the Supreme Creator is not Vishnu. It is the 'Lord of Vishnu' and by extension the 'Lord of Lakshmi' and the 'Lord of Zeus' and the 'Lord of Hera' etcetc. It is so much greater than any personalised god or goddess that they pale into insignificance / nonexistence.

    Also it would helpa lot if you're able to put the ang number of your quotes tuks so the entire tuk can be put into context of it's shabad. :)
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    #2 Ishna, Dec 30, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2012
  4. spnadmin

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    Xinc ji

    Whenever you read in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji reference to Lord of Lakshmi, then you are reading about Lord Jaggannath who in Orissa is the consort of godess Lakshmi, as she is consort to him. Lord Jaggannath is an avatar of Vishnu. These particular shabads are reference to the people of Orissa, a city in India with special devotion to Lord Jaggannath.

    There is no contradiction among shabads. Two of the tuks you cite are by bhagats who lived before Guru Nanak. They were referring to Vishnu. Their poetry was included by Guru Arjan Dev ji in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. The temple of Vishnu as Jaggannath or Lord of Lakshmi was off-limits to King Ramachandra after he converted to Islam to appease the Moghul overlord Taki Khan. Hence the reference to "destroyer of demons." Ramachandra was able to secure the safety of the temple by converting to Islam, but he and the people of Orissa always feared for the temple and continued a devotion to Lord Jaggannath.

    In return even to this day the people of Orissa have a yearly devotion to the Lord of Lakshmi/Lord Jaggannath. When Guru Nanak visited Orissa, he preached to its people, giving credit to their devotion but also telling them of a higher devotion to Ik Oankar, who has liberated even Vishnu, Lord of Lakshmi/Lord Jaggannath. Let me get the shabad and I will come back and add it to this comment.
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    #3 spnadmin, Dec 30, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2012
  5. spnadmin

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    Shabad to people of Orissa: Ang 1190

    ਬਸੰਤੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥
    Basanṯ mėhlā 1.
    Basant 1st Guru.

    ਆਪੇ ਭਵਰਾ ਫੂਲ ਬੇਲਿ ॥
    Āpe bẖavrā fūl bel.
    Lord Himself is the bumblebee, the flower and the creeper,

    ਆਪੇ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਮੀਤ ਮੇਲਿ ॥੧॥
    Āpe sangaṯ mīṯ mel. ||1||
    and He Himself unites man with society of the Guru, the friend.

    ਐਸੀ ਭਵਰਾ ਬਾਸੁ ਲੇ ॥
    Aisī bẖavrā bās le.
    O bumble-bee, suck thou such fragrance,

    ਤਰਵਰ ਫੂਲੇ ਬਨ ਹਰੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
    Ŧarvar fūle ban hare. ||1|| rahā▫o.
    by which the trees may flower and the woods may reverdure. Pause.

    ਆਪੇ ਕਵਲਾ ਕੰਤੁ ਆਪਿ ॥
    Āpe kavlā kanṯ āp.
    The Lord Himself is the Lakhshmi and Himself her Spouse.

    ਆਪੇ ਰਾਵੇ ਸਬਦਿ ਥਾਪਿ ॥੨॥
    Āpe rāve sabaḏ thāp. ||2||
    Installing the world, He Himself enjoys it.

    ਆਪੇ ਬਛਰੂ ਗਊ ਖੀਰੁ ॥
    Āpe bacẖẖrū ga▫ū kẖīr.
    God Himself is the calf, cow and the milk.

    ਆਪੇ ਮੰਦਰੁ ਥੰਮ੍ਹ੍ਹੁ ਸਰੀਰੁ ॥
    Āpe manḏar thamh sarīr. ||3||
    He Himself is the support of the body mansion.

    ਆਪੇ ਕਰਣੀ ਕਰਣਹਾਰੁ ॥
    Āpe karṇī karanhār.
    He Himself is the Deed and the Doer,

    ਆਪੇ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਕਰਿ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥੪॥
    Āpe gurmukẖ kar bīcẖār. ||4||
    and Himself booming the Guru-ward reflects upon Himself.

    ਤੂ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਖਹਿ ਕਰਣਹਾਰੁ ॥
    Ŧū kar kar ḏekẖėh karanhār.
    Creating the world, Thou behold it, O my Creator-Lord.

    ਜੋਤਿ ਜੀਅ ਅਸੰਖ ਦੇਇ ਅਧਾਰੁ ॥੫॥
    Joṯ jī▫a asaʼnkẖ ḏe▫e aḏẖār. ||5||
    Thou give support to the light of the numberless beings.

    ਤੂ ਸਰੁ ਸਾਗਰੁ ਗੁਣ ਗਹੀਰੁ ॥
    Ŧū sar sāgar guṇ gahīr.
    Thou, O Lord, are like the ocean of unfathomable virtues.

    ਤੂ ਅਕੁਲ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਪਰਮ ਹੀਰੁ ॥੬॥
    Ŧū akul niranjan param hīr. ||6||
    Thou are the Unknowable and Immaculate most sublime jewel.

    ਤੂ ਆਪੇ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਰਣ ਜੋਗੁ ॥
    Ŧū āpe karṯā karaṇ jog.
    Thou Thyself are the Creator, potent to do anything,

    ਨਿਹਕੇਵਲੁ ਰਾਜਨ ਸੁਖੀ ਲੋਗੁ ॥੭॥
    Nihkeval rājan sukẖī log. ||7||
    and the independent King whose subjects are in peace.

    ਨਾਨਕ ਧ੍ਰਾਪੇ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਸੁਆਦਿ ॥
    Nānak ḏẖarāpe har nām su▫āḏ.
    Nanak is satiated with the relish of the Lord's Name.

    ਬਿਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਮ ਜਨਮੁ ਬਾਦਿ ॥੮॥੭॥
    Bin har gur parīṯam janam bāḏ. ||8||7||
    Vain is one's life without the beloved Guru-God.

    There are some key ideas here in Guruji's preaching. First that God himself is like the bumblebee, everywhere, and not only the one who pollinates, infuses nature with life, but is nature itself. The bumblebee, the creeper and the flower are one. Therefore, there is no separation between the Divine and his creation. Second idea is that He unites us with Himself. One need not seek special manifestations through ceremonies and idol worship because the Divine is always present and supports his Creation. The next idea is that He is Lakshmi and the Lord of Lakshmi, and the calf, and the cow and the milk. These are Hindu images which the people of Orissa would respect and know. Guru Nanak is saying that liberation/Lakshmi and Jaggannath, the child/calf, the mother/cow, and the naam/life giving milk are all united in him. He is Niranjan - unknowable yet known through his creation because he is merged with creation. Peace comes from this one all powerful god, even to the people of Orissa. The shabad ends that Nanak is satiated/fulfilled by knowing his beloved Satguru; life would be empty otherwise.

    BUT, Vishnu is too loose a translation in this tuk (on Ang 691)

    ਕਮਲਾਪਤਿ ਕਵਲਾ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਨਾਂ ॥੩॥
    कमलापति कवला नही जानां ॥३॥
    Vishnu the Lord of Lakshmi and Lakshmi herself - none of them know the Lord. ||3||

    Vishnu is tied to the word Kamlapati ਕਮਲਾਪਤਿ. Maybe yes, maybe no, in SGGS. For Hindus, Kamlapati means Vishnu. I think the translator used "Vishnu" because the Bhagats who lived brefore Guru Nanak preached of Vishnu as Guru Nanak was later to preach of one timeless being who is merged with his creation, supporter and giver of peace.
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    #4 spnadmin, Dec 30, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2012

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