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Singh is King? or Lowest of the Low - how should one perceive themselves individually

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by chazSingh, May 1, 2015.

  1. chazSingh

    chazSingh Ireland
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    When we look at ourselves in the Mirror - Do we individually perceive ourselves as 'Singh is King"? or should we look deep into Gurbani and see how the Guru Ji's perceived themselves... They were King of Kings, yet what does Gurbani tell us of their own personal mentality? And why do they hold that mentality?

    In many instances Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji describes himself as "A Worm" "Lowest of the Low" "slave of Gods Slaves" "Nanak the lowly"

    Why? Is it because of the formula they provide that We must remove our Ego and Pride to have any chance of having Darshan of Waheguru.....? to Experience Waheguru? to know our true self?

    Are we learning from this when we stick our chests out and say "Singh is King"?

    I often hear people say "there is now way you can stand up and fight oppression if you see yourself as the lowest, as manure, as the dust of peoples feet, you will only become weak"

    Are they ignoring Gurbani? do they not believe in Guru Ji when Guru Ji tells us that by becoming the lowest of the low that we actually become the greatest?

    What happens when we mentally through thought and action "become the Dust of every ones feet"?

    By killing our Ego, Gurbani indicates that the barrier between us and him dissolves and Waheguru's Light is allowed to shine bright and all Waheguru Ji's might and greatness flows through our very being.

    Do we believe in this? Will we trust our Guru? Are we able to implement this in a world engrossed in Egotistical Drama.

    Singh is King? or Lowest of the Low?

    This Shabad is by Guru Arjan Dev Ji in Raag Dayv Gandhaaree on Pannaa 529


    man jio apunae prabh bhaavo ||
    O my mind, act as it pleases God.

    neechahu neech neech ath naanhaa hoe gareeb bulaavo ||1|| rehaao ||
    Become the lowest of the low, the very least of the tiny, and speak in utmost humility. ||1||Pause||

    anik adda(n)bar maaeiaa kae birathhae thaa sio preeth ghattaavo ||
    The many ostentatious shows of Maya are useless; I withhold my love from these.

    jio apuno suaamee sukh maanai thaa mehi sobhaa paavo ||1||
    As something pleases my Lord and Master, in that I find my glory. ||1||

    sarab sookh baddiaaee naanak jeevo mukhahu bulaavo ||2||5||
    I obtain all peace and greatness, O Nanak, living to chant His Name with my mouth. ||2||5||

    dhaasan dhaas raen dhaasan kee jan kee ttehal kamaavo ||
    I am the slave of His slaves; becoming the dust of the feet of his slaves, I serve His humble servants.

    sarab sookh baddiaaee naanak jeevo mukhahu bulaavo ||2||5||
    I obtain all peace and greatness, O Nanak, living to chant His Name with my mouth. ||2||5||

    Can Gurbani be any clearer?
     
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    #1 chazSingh, May 1, 2015
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  3. ActsOfGod

    ActsOfGod
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    Pride is pride, that's obvious. But one distinction I'd like to point out:

    "I am the slave of His slaves; becoming the dust of the feet of his slaves, I serve His humble servants."

    Note that it says "slave of His slave", i.e. slave of Waheguru's slave, the criteria is very specifically described, it's not just anybody you happen to meet.

    Something to consider before you become humble and meek in front of people who are intent upon harming or hurting you.

    Miri and Piri are both required. So there is a need for strength and power, but it must be tempered by divine wisdom and Guru-inspired leadership.

    AoG


     
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  4. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    well personally, no, I do not really wish to be a King, but then in reality, a King was responsible for his subjects, he loved his subjects, a good King would do anything for his subjects, putting them before himself, so in that sense, being a King is a laudable intention. However, most people who would want to be King are only interested in the pleasurable aspects of being King. There is also the other facet that a lot of young Sikhs growing up with beards and Turbans find it difficult to lose the image of simpleton or idiot, whilst their shaven and neatly styled friends can aspire to be like the latest Bollywood hero.

    They were Kings of service, a King in the purest giving aspect, we can all be Kings like this. They viewed others problems and issues as more worthy of attention than their own, true servants of Akal Purakh/Ik Ong Kar.

    perhaps to intimate that he himself had no desires or aspirations other than the will of the Creator.

    We now come to dangerous ground, speaking as someone who completely shed ego and pride, I can happily confirm that the experience, although not unpleasant, did not assist hugely in my ability to earn an income for myself, nor provide for my family. A certain amount of ego and pride is essential in my view to live, otherwise you run the risk of being a doormat. It is all down to logic, wisdom and discretion, the wise man knows how much is ego, and how much is essential, same with pride, only a fool, (hello), would impose a blanket ban on ego and pride right across without any thought. I think this is what makes Sikhism different to other religions, you have to think, use your brain, know when the ego is helping, and when it is not, and act accordingly. Even our true self has a brain.

    When I see a young Sikh, turbaned, bearded, stick his chest out and be proud to be a Singh, I like that, When I see a young Sikh helping others, loving others, making the people round them happy, stick his chest out, it makes me double proud, because he is (could just as well be a she, but without the beard), taking pride in his role in the world, as helper, sustainer, encourager.

    rubbish, if you see yourself as low, you have nothing to prove other than the truth, however the problem we have as a culture is getting our young to be proud of Sikhism, but to be humble at the same time, I suppose it can be confusing...

    the problem with this is the reverse thinking that many people are guilty, as seen by Uriah Heep, where becoming low becomes a competition with the ultimate prize being that the lowest wins, and becomes the greatest. One must be the lowest of the low not because we concede greatness to everyone else, but because we as Sikhs simply cannot be bothered to play stupid games like everyone else. There is no game, so we consider ourself as non players, or default setting is set to low, because the games people play are pointless and childish. So when we meet someone who wishes to boast of the cars, lifestyle, etc etc, we smile and nod, and talk of our simple life and our simple needs, btw second hand 20 year Range Rovers do count as simple needs.

    Well it certainly does not mean we just bend over and everything to everyone, again, in my view it is a simple 'I am not playing your stupid game, you win,there you go, feel happy now?'

    There is a story which may or not be true,

    When the aged ascetic son of Guru Nanak Baba Sri Chand came to visit Guru Ram Das he asked him why he kept such a long beard? Guru Ram Das replied; "To wipe the dust off the feet of holy men like yourself" and then proceeded to perform this supreme act of humility. Sri Chand held his hand and embraced Guru Ram Das saying; "It's enough. This is the kind of character by which you have deprived me of my ancestral heritage. Now, what more is left with me that I could offer you for your piety and goodness of heart?"

    In a world where as people we constantly try and outdo each other, where we demand respect, recognition, wish others to see our greatness, what better way to turn this all on its head and say, hell, I AM NOT PLAYING IN FACT I WILL CONCEDE THE GAME RIGHT NOW BY DOING THIS. (sorry Gyaniji for using your caps, royalties to your paypal!) and now you can speak to me without playing your hideous game, let us talk as men, not animals trying to outdo each other.

    killing is a strong word, I would say maybe understanding, tempering, using wisdom and logic to ensure that although you do not play the game, you still value yourself hugely, a lack of ego should not mean you value yourself as low, even though you may act low.

    yes, but only if we use our brains
    an excellent post Chazji, one that makes us all think, I note you have the writer tab on your profile, it is well deserved, you writings are thought provoking and well written
     
  5. Original

    Original
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    Chaz Singh Ji

    There are phases, situations, circumstances and of course, analysis to rationalise life when it comes to, what to do, what to become, how to become, how to behave and why behave, and so on. You're a beautiful and a forwarding thinking individual, which looks good from an "idealistic" perspective. The fact of the matter is, if the followers of Guru Nanank did not adopt a group "psyche" of the warrior spirit within [courage] after the martyrdom of Guru Arjun Dev Ji we'd all be chanting Allah today.

    Chaz Singh Ji, there is theory and practice with which our Gurus were familiar. They could've adopted the Good Samaritan approach, why didn't they ? Because they belived in human dignity and respect. If you are going to live, then live with head held high. The 10th master lived up to that end. It is difficult to make calculations on paper, but when push comes to shove you either fall or withstand. Khalsa was found to withstand and take on whatever took Akal Purakh's fancy. Singh is King and always will be, that is not to say the element of humility is sidetracked, but because the underlying spirit of the warrior Sikh coordinates and unites virtues of wisdom, courage, self-discipline and justice.

    The knife is a useful tool with many functions; it can also be abused. Does that mean it should not have gone past the conceptual stage of invention ? The pursuit of such wisdom cannot be held responsible for the hypothetical abuse nor should it impeded to reform society.

    Scan Sikh history you'll find the toolkit for survival neatly preserved. Of course, we didn't want any trouble but what to do when it presented itself on our doorstep ? Evolution favoured fight and not flight. We are saints and soldiers when we want to be and our Guru [SGGSJ] makes it absolutely clear how that is achievable.


    Courage is a virtue - Young Sikhs ought to be encouraged to rake it in when and where possible.
     
  6. chazSingh

    chazSingh Ireland
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    Original Ji,

    Like many..you are misunderstanding what humbleness is...and what is it's purpose.

    you are very quick to jump on the whole..humbleness breads weakness when courage is required...

    Gurbani stats where there is no Ego....God manifests fully...allong with the attributes highlighted in Mool Mater..

    Fearlessness...no hate.

    through this formula...you will literally See that All is God..therefore pride has no purpose...competition has no purpose...there are no enemies...all is God.

    And through fearlessness...real true fearlessness....courage is abundant...strength is abundant...we will be engulfed in Gods shakti...

    We would not be fighting to destroy or defeat an enemy...but too awaken them...to awaken the people we protect also...true Saint Soldiers...

    So please stop thinking being a doo-gooder or being humble is a weakness because it is Key in the formula to God realisation and for manifestation of True Strength..,not the stregnth that results from a puffed up chest...or a singh is King slogan....this stregth devides people but doesnt bring them together...look around you...even within sikhs this pride is causing so much commosion. they don't see God in each other

    The True Stregnth can be achieved / experienced / manifested in this present moment. It wil bring about perserverance, patience, courage, strength, forgiveness, fearlessness, self defence, love for the enemy...love for all...this is the true Strength..waheguru Flowing through you..

    Find me one shabad in Gurbani that says a puffed up chest / Pride / Ego / Anger / Revenge / Singh is King has its beneficial purpose.

    all the stength you require will manifest once you become that humble being with the light of God shining within.
    it is like in Tai Chi Martial arts they say you become like cotton (humble) wrapped around iron (strength and attributes of waheguru within including fearlessness :) )

    The world is looking for a solution to the problems caused by pride and Ego...We don;t need to add to the problem by doing what the world is already doing...we need to be the solution

    The Guru's didnt just mindlessly act in Fight or Flight responses...they knew what they were doing...they negotiated, fought only when they had to...through their actions of treating everyone including their supposed enemies equally and trying to awaken them not destroy them...they changed the mindset of many of the enemy...that is why the empire eventually crumbled...there was LOVE behind there actions which even the enemy felt.

    If you don't fear death...what use is Fight or Flight response of survival...if you die in the battle it is Gods Wil...if you survive in the battle it is gods will...hence the sacrifices they made...hence why they didnt scream not to be killed...they knew that they couldnt die..they never will die...body might perrish...not them..

    none of this would have happened if they were merely controlled by the auto fight or flight response. they were 100% aware at all times :)
     
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    #5 chazSingh, May 3, 2015
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  7. Original

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    please enlighten me
    Dear Chaz

    You've taken the subject matter [singhking] completely out of context. May I suggest you go back to my initial response in the "thoughts of the moment" thread; when, what I said was directed towards "bullying". Following on from there, I gave you "my" version of the psychological importance of having a courageous disposition in one's outlook to life in general and not in particular. For example, stand against terrorism, bullying, injustice, oppression, etc. etc. In short, if our Gurus had a magic wand or your formula to hand then I'm sure they would've used that and not the sword. And although, time has elapsed considerably, the conditions remains pretty much the same if not worse. What worked for Gandhi didn't for Gobind.

    Please Note:

    I welcome discussions, not arguments and that too, with a soft tone and an open mind. In my humble opinion, tunnel vision Sikhism is effective during nitnem, but not in cosmopolitan societies.


    The Singh King maxim mustn't be misconstrued to mean egotistical appetite but rather a "self-help" spiritual up lift. That is to say, an energetic action directed to better an individual in both physical and spiritual constitution. The spirit of Singh King within the meaning of self-help is the root of all genuine growth in the individual, and exhibited in the lives of many. It constitutes the true source of national vigour [Fauja] and strength. The solid foundations of Liberty and free will must rest upon individual character. Indeed, all experience serves to prove that the worth and strength of a social group [Sikh] depend far less upon the form of its institutions than upon the character of its members. It is the condition of the individual that constitutes the social group as a whole and civilisation is, but an improvement collectively. Unless the conditions of human life and character are radically improved, we are likely to see decay and distruction continue. It is and was from this perspective that I imported "courage" to illustrate a robustic stance in society for young Sikhs. You've taken the spiritual road, whereas, the discussion at hand was and still very much is to I instil virtue, namely, courage.

    Courage is a virtue, but not on its own. It must work in conjunction with the others [wisdom], that is, when to fight spiritually and when to fight physically [Gandhi Gobind approach]. We're not all Chaz Singh Ji and never will be is a matter of fact, that's not to say, we mustn't try. Of course, as an ideal and an aim in life we endeavour for peaceful resolutions to life's lot of major problems, but sadly, human nature is such that it requires policing and regulation.

    Humans by nature are capable of horrific cruelty, genocide, war, corruption and greed. Yet, they can also be caring, kind, fair and philanthropic - more so than any other species. What lies behind this dual nature ? Ek On Kar !

    To get to that level of awareness and disposition takes time. I'm very pleased with your write ups on the softly softly Sikhism, just as I'm obliged to state the hardcore facts of everyday secenarios.
     
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  8. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    Chazji,

    I was able to read the first two posts before you deleted them, and to be honest by the second post you had pretty much converted me! I was just about to sit down and agree with you when they vanished!

    Your third post which is the one you settled on I believe does you a great injustice.

    Sorry, I cannot read this without laughing, for a statement that is supposed to laud being humble, well, it does not come across very humble. In fact, it would not be out of place in a comedy sketch about humility! It brings to mind Peter Sellers 'gentlemen you cannot fight in here, this is the war room!'

    now I did ask that there would be no proselytism, our own way is our own way, this is not a forum where we try and convert each other, or show each other the errors of our ways, see it more as a public debate, where we all learn from the debating, where we all respect each other and each others opinions. To say that to use a certain formula once can literally see God, is in my view, proselytism.

    Although a beautiful concept, it is idealistic, I am a pacifist, have never had a fight, ever, had knifes pulled on me, etc etc, but always used my humour to get me out of trouble, humour and hugs, however, if I had no choice but to fight, then I would fight to kill, to destroy, to defeat, I do not think at that point I would give two hoots about awakening my enemy.

    I note spelling and grammar mistakes that you do not normally make, I can only assume you are passionate about this subject, this is good, passion is good, but it is this same passion that we all carry with us, we are not all the same, we are all different, it is our collective in true form that is called the Khalsa, individually we are nothing.
     
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  9. chazSingh

    chazSingh Ireland
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    trying to quote elements of your reply using your guidelines harry ji, when i highlight parts of your response and right click, I don't get a quote option?

    to your response about being humble...these are words in text based format, i have used no exclamation marks, capital letters or any descriptive words to indicate in which set of emotions I have responded...

    so i Find it quite amusing also that you assume there is anything but humbleness in my response. I will Add a Smiley Face to give you an indication that i am sitting here replying in a friendly manner :) :)

    The text message world is plagued with people having arguments, relationships crumbling due to a simple misinterpretation of text messages :)

    you stated "no choice but to fight, then I would fight to kill, to destroy, to defeat, I do not think at that point I would give two hoots about awakening my enemy."
    My reply would be, Who wouldn't do that? where have i stated in my responses that True Self Defence is inappropriate?

    I am actually only trying to indicate a state of mind, a state of being that Gurbani States that we can achieve....that is what Gurbani is saying is our Goal in life...our true identity...a state of being that Gurbani says most of the population hasn't awoken to.

    So it is not your current state that i am saying is wrong in any way...but just highlighting something else that you can achieve...

    so it is that vision, that ray of light over the horizon that we have this 'unique' opportunity being born as human...lets grab hold of it and make it happen...because i know...for sure 100% that it is real and we can all get there. i'm very passionate about this, yes!

    Also, the spelling and grammar mistakes usually happen when i respond via my mobile phone :) its quite fiddly typing on the damn thing with my fat fingers, with all the predictive texting features..etc etc.
     
  10. chazSingh

    chazSingh Ireland
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    Self defense is indeed a gift given to us...to stand up for ourselves and others. It is why i am quite passionate about self defense and learning self defense myself.

    But me personally when i read Gurbani, I want to merge into the Guru Ji's mindset. What clues are they giving me?
    I read page after page of giving all glory to Waheguru...they take no pride, ego, joy in anything they had achieved...all the glory was Waheguru's...they were the mere vessel through which God worked...how humble is that? can you sense any Ego in any Shabads in SGGS Ji?


    To me this is a clear sign of surrender to Waheguru (surrender of Ego) of any claim of self achievement...of self glory...all is Waheguru :)

    Therefore i personally can never adopt a 'Singh is King mindset' nor would i help puff another persons Ego by claiming they are. It has very little purpose in my eyes. In my eyes Gurbani tells me that True Strength comes when ones Ego is diluted and Waheguru in all his might floods into your very being....complete surrender to the Creative power.....what can be more powerful than that. All His Glory...Waheguru :)

    In Battle, do i want the real deal? the True Strength...clarity of Mind, strength of Waheguru pouring through my very being? or Do i want a moments lift of head...a temporary belief in myself through some slogans being branded about. Life is short...i want the real deal :)


    You mention in your post that it takes time to achieve such a state...I say it can take you a second if it takes you a second to surrender mind body and wealth...as simple as that :) My own mind is plagued by the 5 thieves...complete surrender is proving quite difficult...but i am seeing glimses of the light...all His doing...not mine :)

    Note: As said to harry Ji, these are mere words on a forum....i have not written any responses in any way other than friendly discussion...apologies if it came across that way.
     
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  11. chazSingh

    chazSingh Ireland
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    Dhanaasaree, Fifth Mehla:
    One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:
    At home, and outside, I place my trust in You; You are always with Your humble servant.
    Bestow Your Mercy, O my Beloved God, that I may chant the Lord's Name with love.
    God is the strength of His humble servants.
    Whatever You do, or cause to be done, O Lord and Master, that outcome is acceptable to me. ||Pause||
    The Transcendent Lord is my honor; the Lord is my emancipation; the glorious sermon of the Lord is my wealth.
    Slave Nanak seeks the Sanctuary of the Lord's feet; from the Saints, he has learned this way of life. ||2||1||25||
     
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  12. Original

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    Dear Chaz

    First n foremost - no love lost ! I'm cool as a cucumber 24/7. But for the sake of the discussion [courage], let me say as follows:

    Statement

    Part of me understands this [physical, below] and I don’t word weave it [true self-defence] to accommodate personal disposition, but rather as an academic exercise, rise above flowery words to understand the times and the conditions under which Sikhism was born. From a historical perspective the need to educate the young to understand the significance and the rationale behind the creation of Khalsa is paramount, without camouflaging to make it compatible with personal lifestyle. Courage is and always will be part and parcel of an “evolutionary” trait inherent within the human genome albeit diversified in its many manifestations.

    Physical

    After the martyrdom of his father, while the ceremonial rites were being performed, Guru HarGobind Ji asked Baba Buddha to adorn him with a sword rather than the Seli [topi] of Guru Nanak Dev Ji, which had been used previously by the earlier Gurus. Guru HarGobind Ji then put on two swords; one on his left side and the other on his right. He named one "Miri” representing temporal power, and the other "Piri” representing Spiritual Power; one to smite the oppressor and the other to protect the innocent.

    Given Hargobind was the 6th Nanak, your irrational stance is unfounded. That is not to say, it’s unnatural, to the contrary infact, humans have a tendency to be irrational at times, which is called “confirmation bias” [mind’s tendency to pick and choose information to support preconceptions, while ignoring a wealth of evidence to the contrary].

    I'll rest my case with the ordinary strands of life and let us move forward with the extra-ordinary, in particular, spiritual - over to you !

    Spiritual [for you]

    "Gauthma Buddha in his infinite wisdom, once sat to deliver his discourse to his followers and without uttering a single word, raised a flower, which he held in his hand. He held it for a “moment” and then he got up and left. Only one among the thousands that had gathered to hear his discourse understood the profound hidden meaning of his gesture. On realising it, this one individual was enlightened.

    Buddha was teaching that all we have is “this moment”. In this moment everything is perfect. This illustration was to show there are no creations of the mind, no problems-just awareness of this flower in the stillness of the mind. Outside the moment, life is suffering".

    Resonates with what you say hey Chaz and I agree with you wholly solely.

    Good luck with your discipline - you'll enjoy the meditation more than the physical exertion, I guess !

    Sincere blessings
     
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  13. chazSingh

    chazSingh Ireland
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    Interesting read Original JI :)

    I've been studying and practicing Tai Chi for the past 2 years now. To my surprise it is a full on martial art for self defense as opposed to what you kind of see in today's make shift tai chi classes. I enjoy it immensely because it doesn't see the spiritual and physical as two seperate entities...but that the physical actions are manifestations of the soul (once you reach a higher stage) - at a lower, beginner level..it is all physical. At the highest level it is the Soul (God energy) doing the movements...not the mind. interesting stuff :)

    I'm not quite sure if you're getting what i'm saying about humbleness and loss of Ego resulting in the kind of Courage / Fearlessness / strength that the Khalsa had in those times.

    If you look at the description of the Khalsa that Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji wrote...you will see that each of the khalsa were completely pure...they had reached enlightenment...complete fearlessness, otherwise they would not have been called the khalsa in the first place as per His description...and they would not have been able to stand up against huge numbers of the enemy and happily give their lives to the cause...they didn't fear death...because they already knew through experience\mediation that they will not die.

    The difference nowadays is that people start to call themselves Khalsa upon initiation...whereas that is just the beginning of their journey to becoming Khalsa.

    Therefore looking at the actions of the Khalsa of the Guru Ji's times and putting their actions down to 'Flight or Fight' Response is quite disturbing to be honest. - Yes the general population that was being oppressed would have re-acted in such a manner or required an Ego boost to stimulate courage, But not the Khalsa :)

    Also from your responses you seem to have somehow developed the thought that i am against all acts of self defense. i really do not know where you got this from :)

    i'm with you my friend...the only difference is i believe there is a difference in the strength and courage derived from a puffed up chest (which is temporary) - to the strength derived from humility and loss of Ego :) (which will be with you forever and in abundance no matter the opposition) - the kind of strength where you would sit on a hot plate without a single moment of pain, and show the world the power of the Naam - did you see any fight or flight in Guru Ji's reponses? :)

    God Bless Ji
     
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  14. Navdeep88

    Navdeep88 Canada
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    Honestly

    **This is not a 'sikh' perspective.* Ie, Im not claiming that it's a prescribed perspective in any way, just my view.**

    I think the Humblest, lowest of the low is a SCAPEGOAT in this modern world. I think it is being willfully ignorant and that is very very dangerous.

    To be 'lowest of the low' you have to assume other people are higher than you, you Give them the responsibility to treat you well. Well, the Reality is, anyone can treat you however they want. Unless its Illegal, they can be as rude or mean to you as they want.

    I think having a healthy level of self-confidence, knowing what you are and what you will do to protect is a Non-moronic Firm way to be. Unless you want to escape the world and live in 'la-la' land, to Exist in the world you have to protect what you stand for,,, and it seems like a lot of the later lives of the Gurus, they showed how they protected what was important whilst still being 'connected' or making some effort at connection of Good morals, values & more..
     
  15. Original

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    Dear Navdeep

    Your view is right insofar the "social" character of a human is the subject-matter. That is to say, Sikhism speaks of values of life and stages of life. It is in the final stages of one's life where graceful attitude is recommended , otherwise facing the world head-on is the central theme in Sikhism. All our Guru's exemplified that very attitude, in as much as, doing khethi [farming] at Kartarpur was to steer Jo public in that direction and then revisiting these core values of courage, respect, dignity and respect [6th Nanak] to instill humanitarian traits which were considered indispensable by the house of Nanak.

    In this day n age resilience is an important theme. Rather then teaching the youth self -esteem, we should foster the strength of character to integrate well within cosmopolitan societies and handle set backs in the future as well as successes.

    Long may it live, an attitude full of grace, respect, honour, dignity and above all humility within the "Singh King - Kaur Queen" name given by our father Gobind.

    Many thanks

    Enjoy the day !
     
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  16. Sherdil

    Sherdil
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    I agree with Chaz. The humility being discussed in the shabadh he posted has nothing to do with one's ability to stand up for what is right.

    The end-goal of Sikhi is to give up the self / Haumai / I am.

    One technique is seva (selfless service). Your actions are not done for self-gain. You do not expect any reward, not even liberation or union with the Divine. The sole pleasure you derive is from serving others, being dust, the lowest of the low, etc.



    When we talk about action, or standing up for what is right, we have to again remove the self from the equation. Understand that it is the Divine who is doing everything. You are merely the vehicle to carry out His Will (Hukam). If the Universe places you on a battlefield to kill other people, then that is the Hukam. It has nothing to do with your wants or desires. To think in terms of the latter is to perpetuate the illusion of Maya and Haumai (I am), which furthers your suffering.

    In whatever situation, do what is right without involving your own ego. Try to see the situation objectively for what it is, instead of subjectively from your point of view.

    Case in point: Guru Hargobind and Guru Gobind Singh didn't militarize their Sikhs to get revenge. They militarized their Sikhs because it was the need of the time.
     
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  17. chazSingh

    chazSingh Ireland
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    Navdeep Ji,

    From a Gurbani Perspective....Gurbani is saying that the true reality is that all is God/Waheguru...

    therefore can you be higher or greater than Waheguru? only a persons Ego can create that illusion...therefore the only option is to become lowest (in mind) in order to kills ones Ego...

    and then BOOOOOOOM, once the Ego is dissolved...you may be blessed to literally see waheguru everywhere..and only waheguru...and then you will know the truth of life...and true courage, true fearlessness bears fruit....for if everything is waheguru...then who is there to be in fear of? :)

    one can think of them self as lowest of the lowest...not as in "i am worthless compared to everyone else"....but in a "everywhere i look i see on you (waheguru)...therefore i bow my head and am the dust of everyones (waheguru's) feet"

    By calling himself lowly, one attains the high position. - bhai Gurdas Ji Vars
     
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    #16 chazSingh, May 20, 2015
    Last edited: May 20, 2015
  18. Original

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    Sir,

    This discussion came into being from a light hearted gesture of standing up to "bullying". It has definitely spirled out of context with which it was intended in the first instance. Kindly, revisit and realise the point at the heart of this discussion is "courage", in conjunction with self-discipline, wisdom and justice.

    I'm sorry, but I cannot reconcile with revenge having anything to do with the subject at hand.

    If I may add, there is time to become each and everyone, that is, worm and lion in life's indescribable journey, dependant upon situation and circumstance. Of course, nothing is greater than humility, but not against tyranny and bullying. A tyrant and a bully will never know that their behaviours are unacceptable in a democratic society unless the victim protests. This protest may manifest in many forms, from cooperative to conflict - either way, the operative word is "courage". Gloss it up how you like - whether, war came to Gobind or whether, Gobind took it to the oppressors, the net result of the subject matter remains the same, what to do? Wipe the oppressors feet with beard to exercise humility or stand up?

    Sikh as a faith had to "battle" to survive - we can sugarcoat "courage" with flowery words to be consistent with our "value" and "belief" - more commonly known as "confirmation bias" [mind's tendency to pick n choose information to support self-belief in the face of rising criticism]. Some of us are beautiful souls who have gone beyond the Barbican and live in an "egoless, om shanti om, waheguru waheguru, satnam satnam - Loveland". What about Joe Bloggs who gets picked-up on in playgrounds and gets all sorts of abuse ? Should they be chanting waheguru or running back to their mum n dad or learn to stand up ? I'm sorry, but Sikhism does not preach the "Samaritan" way of life. Instead we're told to stand-up, of course, first n foremost in a civil way - mann niva mat ouchi.

    Just in case of an overtone on my part [apologies], I'm talking about about contemporary society and not spiritual Sikhism. And, if I may humbly request, holy scriptures need not be drawn into this kind of analysis, in my view. Simply because they are "divine".


    Many thanks
     
  19. chazSingh

    chazSingh Ireland
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    Original Ji,

    you posted "Wipe the oppressors feet with beard to exercise humility or stand up?"

    humility = wipe the oppressors feet with the beard lol really ? :) ... strange



    you mention "holy scriptures need not be drawn into this kind of analysis, in my view. Simply because they are "divine".

    Then what are you doing on this forum? :)

    surely all the Divine Guru ji's went through all that they did and left us with the guidance of SGGS ji, because they actually want us to live it..and become it..


    reading your above comment makes me think you feel SGGS Ji is too far fetched for 'real' life as you perceive it...which you are fully entitled to think and believe.

    Myself on the other hand i truely 100% know it can be lived...and everyone has the potential to do it....to go beyond fight or flight...and to become humble to the sight that "All is God" and manifest true fearlessness...true courage...

    not the fake courage and momentary fearlessness that results from a puffed up chest and big ego...which can easily be slapped into touch.

    God bless you on your chosen path.

    Waheguru
     
  20. Original

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    Thank you Chaz Ji -

    For clarity and conclusion, I say as follows:

    First n foremost, what I'm doing on this forum ? Good question !

    One day back in 2011, I was surfing the net for philosophical and legal research based work when I came across SPN. Rest is history, but I quite enjoy the communal chit-chat with like minded individuals and is, the only window I look through for social networking. Also, Gurbani at my age [57] is not only contemplative but transcending consciousness imperative for the permanent home 2b.

    I think it's fair to say that the choosing of path and the circumstance hasn't always been my own, but rather, Akal Purakh's.

    The Guru's were no more than mortal men who through divine intervention preached the word of God. Their testimony and mystical experiences are recorded in SGGSJ, which to me is holy and as such, I treat. Over the years I've come to understand Gurbani in as much not to question but to enjoy.

    I speak of the fight flight syndrome in an existence pre-dating the modern man to illustrate the nature of "courage" and why as an inbuilt trait it was necessary for survival. Again, purely from a biological perspective and not spiritual.

    Attending to matters at hand:

    I feel you're an individual who is at a level of such wonderful spiritual transition and understanding, which comes through karmic cultivations of body, mind and soul, over eons. Of course, all mortals must aspire to and will one day attain to, but are not per se at that level yet. I wholly n solely agree with everything you say in substance but not in context.

    For example, IJ Singh's Ego write up. That article was written as an intellectual exercise and not a spiritual discussion. And, I think the point IJ Singh Ji wanted to put across was, a little bit of ego is necessary in everyday life as well as being an evolutionary trait for humans in their struggle for survival [darwanian evolution]. In my view you took it out of context and red-ringed it as spiritual, whereby references to SGGSJ were made. Yes, had it been a complete spiritual matter, then of course, you'd be the one to take the bull by the horn, but as it stood, it wasn't a spiritual essay per se and such required human cognizance for evaluation and not spiritual deliberation. Similarly, you did likewise in "thoughts of the moment" when I went on to narrate an incident re "bullying" and you construed it to read "Singh is King" albeit camouflaged to militate desired objective.

    If I was to confess, it'll be to hold you so high as to make you a "model Sikh" for others to aspire to. I say it with consent and conviction from a spiritual perspective and, the undercurrent with which Nanak's Sikism is flowing or is intended to flow. But the reality is Chaz, all humans are not equal in their spiritual and intellectual constitution, which is why elevating them to a level where they do begin to appreciate and understand spiritual concepts becomes a task for the contemplative mind such as your own. Then they will begin to see Waheguru in all and everything. To get to that level you need divine intervention as well as personal inclination, devotion and commitment. And, you yourself, demonstrate that through and through. Sadly though, I feel you let yourself get entangled with nitty gritty matters of physical substance which would otherwise be repelled by your spiritual awareness were you to exercise an open-mind policy and treat inborn inequalities as a natural consequence.

    Moving on with what need to be said, I'd like to invite you to consider the following antecedent in an intellectual mode:

    "...here I am, conversing with you on my IPad; how, why and who kind of questions will satisfy a philosophical appetite in me trying to understand the whole SPN palaver, but, what about those souls who have made it possible for me to converse with you via this hand-held device [IPad] from the comfort of my home ? The scientists who identified the laws of nature that underpins their achievements, the investors who converted those laws into usable technology, the entrepreneurs who organised the factors of production to manufacture this device and make it available in the marketplace. None of these people are, according to the so called spiritual experts and religious pontificates "humanitarians". Why ? Because they are classed as egoistical, materialistic and in pursuit of fame, fortune and the rest. And yet, if making human existence fruitful and reducing suffering as desirable commodities, then what act of compassion for these people could rival what has given them, not out of pity or kindness for humanity but for their passion, self-interest [ego] to achieve and to make money in the process ?

    We do not hear the term "compassionate" applied to them, certainly not when they are engaged in their normal work as opposed to those who are engaged in philanthropic activities. Yet in terms of results in the measureable form of jobs created, lives enriched, like your and mine with this medium, a handful of capitalists [SPN, albeit non-profit making with altruistic motive] have done infinitely more for humankind than all the self-serving institutions put together. Isn't their ego a must for them to be achievers and for humanity to tick?

    The moral of what I'm saying is that a relatively small number of investors and capitalists [egoistical] have made incalculable contributions to human welfare and human wellbeing and yet are not considered what most people think of as God-fearing because they have been branded as disillusioned souls. They are not factored into the moral equation because ancient cultures teaches that morality is self-sacrifice and that compassion, pity, egoless and service to others are the ultimate good, whereas, self-esteem [hauema], innovation, ambition and the rest are illusions created. But nevertheless, whatever standards are employed to judge human wellbeing in this day n age, then surely, the contributions made by enthusiasts, entrepreneurs and the rest is beyond measure for they are indispensable.

    Both you and I ought to be grateful to them for making it possible for us to be connected unendingly to Gurbani. Let us pray for them and request Waheguru to bring them to a pinnacle point of perfection, where they too see and realise the wisdom of Chaz.

    Goodnight and Godbless

    PS start another thread if you like, these have died a death.
     
  21. Navdeep88

    Navdeep88 Canada
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    Hmm... I agree Chaz Ji. It's just, I am of the opinion & this might sound silly, but I believe in living, not theorizing. In my experience people can be Very unkind. Even if you've done nothing to them. Your mere presence as a man or woman, young, old, ethnic etc can sometimes trigger them want to treat you a certain way.

    I think an alertness is important in the world, particularly where people are a mixture of ideas and backgrounds etc.
    Like they say, 'follow your heart but don't forget to take your brain with you'
     

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