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Sikh's Purpose

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by Neutral Singh, Aug 26, 2004.

  1. Neutral Singh

    Neutral Singh
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    I was following a fascinating discussion on another forums on this topics... what are your views...

     
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  3. Neutral Singh

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    The discussion is going on between Amarpal Ji and others... let us read and learn...

     
  4. Neutral Singh

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    Dear Amarpal,

    Am I right in assuming that 10 Gurus had become divine whilest alive? Are there any others in Sikhism, who have achieved this union making them divine?

    Rgds
    Truth Seeker
     
  5. Neutral Singh

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    Dear Amarpal,

    Is this "Gautam the Buddha" same as the one Buddhists believe in or is he a Sikh Guru? It's just that I did not see his name in the list of ten Gurus.

    Rgds
    Truth Seeker
     
  6. Neutral Singh

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    Dear Member (TruthSeeker Jee),

    As you know God is one. All religions are path to divinity. From this one can conclude that all the individuals who become divine reach the same place. At that stage no religion is left, it is only the spirituality that remains.

    Gautam is the same individual who established the basis for Buddhism. You are right.

    I gave his example because I consider him divine.

    With love and respect for all.

    Amarpal
     
  7. Neutral Singh

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    Does it mean Sikhism and Buddhism are same?

    rgds
    Truth Seeker
     
  8. Neutral Singh

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    Dear TruthSeeker,

    All religions aim at enabling the individual to become divine. As I have said religions are paths only. I explain what I mean.

    If one starts from Newyork, Tokyo, Cairo, Chennai or Amritsar for Delhi, ultimately all will reach Delhi, but the routes they take will be different. This is because they start from different places. Once you have reached the destination the route has no meaning, that is why I had said in my previous post that no religion is left when you become divine.

    Same is the case with religions. The religions are designed to enable individuals to reach divinity. This design takes care of the sociological conditions, political environment that prevails at the time of its inception,mental level of the individuals that constitute that society, the values and beliefs that the society and the individuals have.

    You see the the inputs that go into the design of any religion. It has to answer the challanges of its time and the future, if it has to remain relevant. From this you can conclude very easily that no two religions can be alike.

    However the spirituality contained in all the religions - stated or implied, is the same. Spirituality is independent of time and individual.

    The divines of by gone era will be similar to the divines of our time or the divines of the coming times.

    You know these divine are separated from 'Karta Purakh' only by this body . You also know 'The Sat' i.e. 'Karta Purakh' does not change so how can the divines be different. Through out ages the divinity had reamined the same, as it is shadow of 'The Sat' in which it is about to merge - 'Sat is always Sat', it never changes. Yet the path to this 'Sat'are different.

    So in summary: Now two religions are alike.

    With love and respect for all.

    Amarpal
     
  9. Neutral Singh

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    Dear Amarpal ji !

    Wahe Guru Ji Ka Khalsa Wahe Guru ji Ki Fateh!

    The main question of TruthSeeker is – "The ultimate goal of man is union with God." Now, I have one question – Gurbani says God is Nirinkar (without any form) – so union with What?

    Second question is "union in life or after death". Guru Nanak Sahib said "Paanch Tat Kaa Putlaa, Nanak Mera Nao". This means body is made of five chemicals and after death these chemicals mix with the nature. So I don't think there is anything after death. I need your help to clarify these points.

    Thirdly, Sikhism is a universal religion or a way of life. It gives enlightenment and enrichment in life to do the selfless service. It welcomes to all, that is why there is no question is asked, whoever comes to Gurdwara Sahib. It is open to all without caste, creed or religious faith. Guru Gobind Singhji baptised the Sikhs and made them Khalsa after Amrit Pan. That's why we always say "Wahe Guru Ji Ka Khalsa Wahe Guru ji Ki Fateh!". We never say "Wahe Guru Ji Ka Sikh Wahe Guru ji Ki Fateh!" Sikh can be anybody. Khalsa was made by Guru Gobind Singhji to protect the oppressors from the cruelty of that time Moguls and also to promote a pure and selfless way of life. Now if Khalsa says that he is the only Sikh, it is simply narrowing the circle of Sikhism which is a very sad part. That is why there are more fights in Gurdwaras than preaching Sikhism. We are confining this universal religion to the forewalls of Gurwdaras which was not the motto of our Gurus. Your comments and guidance will help me to understand the Sikhism better.

    Thanks
    Pul Chut Maf!

    Amarjit Singh
     
  10. Neutral Singh

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    Dear Amarpal,

    I am little apprehensive to say this but I think you are being presumptuous on the verge of ridiculous here in stating "All religions aim at enabling the individual to become divine." Monotheistic religions such as Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, do not have any doctrine that aims at making a person divine.

    Now, going back to your answer that Sikhism teaches one achieves union with God, in life, is also seems somewhat untenable. Please allow me, if a person becomes one with God in life, then why is there death? Shouldn't the person go on to live forever? Secondly, how does anyone know that he/she has become one with God? Is there a trait that shines out reflecting on a person's union with God? At what stage in their lives did the ten Gurus and Gautam Buddha achieved union with God?

    Finally, what happens to those who are unable to achieve union with God?

    Looking forward to your answers and also clarifications sought by Amarjit Singh in his post.

    Rgds
    Truth Seeker
     
  11. Neutral Singh

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    Dear Amarjit Jee,

    Thanks for your response, it helps me to consolidate my thinking. I express my current understanding on the question you have raised in your post.

    I admit that I should have been more elaborate in my first post in this thread.

    When the person become divine, this individual becomes true. The Ahamkar disappears; it sheds from the individual's thinking the same way as the trees shed their leaves - in a natural way without effort. This individual i.e. her/his spirit, though living in this world is already vibrating with 'Sat'. The only thing that separates this person from the 'Nirakaar' is her/his body. This individual is in union with 'The Sat' while living, she/he merges with 'The Sat' when the last entity of worldly living i.e. the body is shed in a natural way. Such an individual, while living, I refer to as 'Gurmukh'. She/he is just at the entrance of the Ultimate Guru. This is my current understanding. Incidently it also responds to the issue related to Akaar and Nirakaar.

    Your second question is related to the first. The five constituent which you have mentioned are the one connected with form. The name Nanak is also a requirement of worldly living, which demands some address. Here Guru Sahib have mentioned about his worldly attribute which are nothing but Akaar. He has not said this makes up the totality of Nanak, he has not mentioend in these words about his inner self i.e. his spirit has nothing to do with the spirit, which is 'Niraakar', which is in union with 'The Sat' when the divine is living and merges and become one with 'The Sat' when the body is shed.

    I agree with your understanding that the chemistry of the body, which is Akaar, merges with nature because that is where it came from. It is the 'Nirakar' part of the individual what vibrates with 'The Sat' in a divine person and merges with 'The Sat' when the body is shed; this merger is only a natural consequence for the divine person, in other words a formality only.

    The third question, is regarding Khalsa and Sikhi. I again share my current understanding with you.

    I make a distinction between Khalsa and Sikhi.

    For me Khalsa is a Panth as created by our Siri Guru Gobind Singh Jee. It is a synergetic configuration based on Sikhi which is its spirit; sikhi is not a panth, it is spiritual teachings. Being a Sikh is essential requirement to be a Khalsa i.e. the member of the Khalsa Panth, which has certain norms and code of conduct.

    The synergetic configuration of the Khalsa Panth is evident from the progress we have made since the inception of Khalsa some 300 years ago as compared to those who where in the similar social and economic condition in which our earlier Khalsa were. e.g. compare sikh farmer with non sikh farmer, sikh skilled worker with non-sikh skilled worker etc. To keep the post relatively short I am not elaboratin why I call Khalsa Pants configuration synergetic. I only mention that Guru Gobind Singh Jee knew its potential, that is why he had said: 'sava lakh se ek ladaon tabhi Gobind Singh naam kahaon'; you know this is possible only in synergetic environment.

    My views are slightly different from what you have stated that Khalsa was created to protect the oppressed people from the rulers. There was no need to do that. In that society a full class is dedicated for this purpose; the Kshtriyas. Why should they need some one else to protect them, God has given them all the needed faculties to protect themselves.

    Guru Gobind Singh Jee created Khalsa Panth in a totally new configuration in which Shastras and Shastras both were incorporated in each individual. He made Khalsa a Saint-Soldier. Others are free to emulate Khalsa, but Khalsa is not a subordinate to any other Panthic Grouping. Khalsa Panth is a synergetic configuration which is always in Chardi Kala.

    True, there are fights in Gurdwara because ours in a corporate religion where every one has a say. This coupled with the fact that we have not developed enough elasticity of mind to stretch a little to understand others view point and the mental plasticity to accommodate others view. I know it is bad but we cannot give up, we have to continue to work within Panth to continuously improve.

    Finally, Amarjit Jee, these are my views based on my current understanding. The are not imposed on any one, in fact they cannot be imposed. You read them accept what appears right to you, rest belong to me.

    With Love and Respect for all.

    Amarpal
     
  12. Neutral Singh

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    Dear Member (TruthSeeker Jee),

    I have said that religions are paths to divinity. By mechanically practiceing the code of the any religion or dogmatically living with its doctrines, on one can become divine.

    The codes and insistance on the doctrines, in my opinion are the tools to bring in discipline and to kindle spirituality in the individual and nothing more than this, beyond this the individual is on its own.

    You appear to be familiar with the essence of many religions. Jesus has once said, the way to my kingdom is very narrow. He owned no territoy, he did not own any property, he was not a king. Then what he meant by his 'kingdom'. To me is is the same which all the religions lead to - divinity.

    Why did he say that the path is very narrow.To me it was to convey the meaning that people in large crowds cannot reach there; each individual has to reach there, and in my opinion on her/his own.

    I have explained what I meant by the becoming divine in the life time itself in my response to the post of our member Amarjit Singh Jee, so I am not repeating the same here.

    I respond to your question why is there death.

    Only the 'Nirakaar' part of the individul is what merges with 'The Sat' which is 'Nirakaar'. The worldly part of the individual i.e. which gives the individual her/his form - the body has to die; it came from nature it merges with nature. Every entity has to merge into from where it came -Akaar into Akaar, Nirakaar into 'Nirakaar'. So the body has to die and hence there is death.

    You asked about when did they became divine.

    As literature indicates Gautam reached this state under the tree in Gaya.

    Siri Guru Nanak Dev Jee reached this stage when he disappeared for three days while taking bath in the river.

    The other Gurus I donot know.

    You asked what traits that distinduish the divine person from the mundane individual.

    The 'Intrinsic Spirituality' is what distinguishes the divine from mundane. Compassion, humility, absence of Ahamkar, non-attachment and truthfulness in life are the indicator about the person who is on her/his way to divinity - these flow out of such individual in a natural way, no effort is need for it on her/his part. Literature says that there is a hallow around such person. I have not seen any but I accept this because I conceptualise 'The Sat' as 'Cosmic Intellegence' and so it have to have a field, which people refer to a hallow.

    You asked what happens to those who are not able to merge in this birth.

    From what I understand, those who are not able to merge have to take rebirth.

    These are my views based on my current understanding. No one need to agree with them. They only reflect what I am at this moment.

    When we discuss, we express our views, we seek clarification on what is said, we raise questions, but we do not pass judgement.

    With love and respect for all.

    Amarpal
     
  13. Neutral Singh

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    Dear Amarpal,

    I am confounded by your religious philosophy! Let me ask you a strange question - If all religions are alike, as you seem to believe, would it be acceptable to you if one of your child or your spouse become - let's say buddhist?

    Regards
    Truth Seeker
     
  14. Neutral Singh

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    Dear Amarpalji!

    Wahe Guru Ji Ka Khalsa Wahe Guru ji Ki Fateh!

    Many thanks for your elaborating and giving answers to our questions which sometimes confused us about the Sikhism. You study and research is really very deep and I pray to "Wahe Guruji" to give you more power to do the service of the panth.

    But still, as a human being, mind is occupied with many different thoughts about achieving the goal of Sat (Truth). As you said "All religions aim at enabling the individual to become divine and religions are paths only. ……If one starts from Newyork, Tokyo, Cairo, Chennai or Amritsar for Delhi, ultimately all will reach Delhi, but the routes they take will be different."

    If it is so, the question of TruthSeeker is very valid i.e. "If all religions are alike, as you seem to believe, would it be acceptable to you if one of your child or your spouse become - let's say buddhist?" It means if one member of the family follows different path to achieve the same goal, would you let him/her do so or dictate your belief.

    What I know and understand, is that Sikhism was started when there were different religions but they were very rigid. Guru Nanak Sahib started Sikhism as a very simple, easy and acceptable religion to all , that is why Bala and Mardana were always with him.

    As Jesus said, the way to my kingdom is very narrow. In Sikhism there is saying that "Sikhi Walo Niki Khandaon Tikhi" . I don't know which Guru said that but it has the same meaning as the Jesus said. It is a very difficult path to achieve the enlightment in this crowded world.

    My thinking is, when one achieve the stage of Truth and Enlightenment, there is no distinction left between the different people or different religions. All seems to be the "people of same God or Akal Purakh". Then there is no religion left but one enlightened jot (light) which lead and merge into the ultimate biggest light i.e Akal Purakh – as small rivers when merge with the ocean become part of that ocean.

    One more question. Guru Gobind Singhji asked – "Guru Granthji Manao Paragat Guran Ki Deh", – my understanding is that when you following the path described in the Granth Sahib, you will see the Almighty as you wish to see. And in Guru Granth Sahib, body parts are contained as the Bani of our Gurus, Hindu Saints and Muslim Saints without any distinction. In Guru Granth Sahib there is not even once mentioned the strict code of dress for the Sikhs as Guru Gobind Singhji asked to follow the code of dress to Khalsa. So what I undestood by that is Guru Gobind Singhji wanted "Guru Granth Sahib" as a universal Guru and not only the Guru of Khalsa. Your views will help me to understand it better.

    Thanks
    Pul Chuk Maf!
     
  15. Neutral Singh

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    Dear Amarjeet Singh,

    Thank you for following my questions to Amarpal and also offering yours point-of-view.

    You also mentioned few things in your last post that caught my attention. I will try to address them point-by-point:

    1. "Guru Nanak Sahib started Sikhism as a very simple, easy and acceptable religion to all, that is why Bala and Mardana were always with him."

    a) Is it a fact or an assumption? Did Guru Nanak say that he is commencing a new religion and asked to be followed?
    b) Did Bala (Hindu) and Mardana (Muslim) become Sikhs?

    2. "One enlightened jot (light) which lead and merge into the ultimate biggest light i.e Akal Purakh – as small rivers when merge with the ocean become part of that ocean."

    a) Why do you think God created humanity?

    3. "In Guru Granth Sahib there is not even once mentioned the strict code of dress for the Sikhs as Guru Gobind Singhji asked to follow the code of dress to Khalsa. So what I undestood by that is Guru Gobind Singhji wanted "Guru Granth Sahib" as a universal Guru and not only the Guru of Khalsa."

    a) Does it mean 5Ks are unnecessary?

    Finally, what are your views regarding re-birth as Amarpal believes that "those who are not able to merge have to take rebirth"?

    Regards
    Truth Seeker
     
  16. Neutral Singh

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    Dear Amarjit Jee,

    I do not have the entire thread of this topic in my mind. If I remember correctly, I have never said that all religions are alike or same. I do not know how this misunderstanding came. What I have said that all religions aim towards divinity. In other words the end point of all is same, which I explained by the example of traveling to Delhi - different route but same destination. My be I did not communicate this point every effectively.

    I donot have childern and my spouse is as commited to Sikhi as I am.

    Bringing up children giving them the values to face life in right way,and to educate them with capabilities to soar high in life, is parents responsibility, it is their dharma. Once this is done the children should be left to live their lives on thier own. Grown-up children are like the arrow which the parents have aimed and now has left the bow; no one can control them. Parents must be just a friend to them. I hold the opinion that one cannot treat children or the spouse as a property. I treat them (all children) with love, recognise and respect their individuality. I have learnt remain loving, caring, but unattached.

    I am also aware that our family's children cannot be our children as they are sons and daughters of life born in my extended family. This realisation comes from the fact that children are through us and not from us. This I learnt from what 'Khalil Gibran' has said.

    If we want our children to remain committed to Sikhi, we have to explain the rational behind what the sikh religion stands for. It is this approach which makes them accept it from thier heart and soul. Once this is the condition they donot drift. Just telling them to keep Kesh is not enough, why Kesh are to be kept needs to be explained to them, quite early in thier age. All of us know that keeping Kesh alone is not Sikhi, it is only a part of Khalsa uniform. Sikhi is much deeper that outward appearance; what it is is enshrined in Siri Guru Granth Sahib.

    With love and respect for all.

    Amarpal
     
  17. Neutral Singh

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    Dear Amarpal,

    You are being ambiguous in your post and clearly veering from the main points.

    You stated in your post "the spirituality contained in all the religions - stated or implied, is the same". And your example about destination-Delhi via various routes implies "the end point of all is same". This line of thinking clearly means that all religions are same as far as their end result is concerned. So there is no misunderstanding, whatsoever.

    As for my hypothetical question, regarding your child or spouse, is concerned, it was to illustrate that if all religions lead to same "end point" then you wouldn’t mind which religion your child or spouse follow. Once again, it was a hypothetical question, and in NO sense implied otherwise, or directed at you personally. However, instead of taking the question in its right context, sadly, you have turned it into some vague personal theology.

    Thanks for trying anyway.

    Regards
    Truth Seeker
     
  18. Neutral Singh

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    Dear TruthSeeker,

    What you have understood now is what I meant. The end destination is same for all religions, though the religions are not the same. End is destination and not the path. Religions are the path not the end. Religions are different, there end destination is same. The path ends when this destination is reached. When you reach the end you are a totally spiritual individual, this is what is divinity; one is intrinsically spiritual. When you become divine you do not need religion any more, you have reached the destination, path is far behind. Religion is meant for those, like me, who are still to reach the destination.

    With love and respect for all.

    Amarpal
     
  19. Neutral Singh

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    Dear Truth Seeker,

    Wahe Guru Ji Ka Khalsa Wahe Guru ji Ki Fateh!

    I am happy that you asked for clarification of my points. I am not that much learned as Mr. Amarpal Singhji but I will try to clarify my points to the best of knowledge.

    Your first point is: a) Is it a fact or an assumption? Did Guru Nanak say that he is commencing a new religion and asked to be followed? b) Did Bala (Hindu) and Mardana (Muslim) become Sikhs?

    My answer to that is Guru Nanak never commenced or launched new religion and asked Bala and Mardana to become Sikhs. Guru Nanak was born like other children but was always a Truth Seeker. I am giving few examples:

    1. When he was sent to Maulvi for learning, Guru Nanak questioned the Maulvi about the meaning of “Alf”. When Maulvi could not answer, Guru Nanak told him the meaning of “Alf” as “Alf Allah Noor Upaya Kudrat Kae Sabh Bande”. 2. When Pandit asked Guru Nanak to wear the “Janaoo” , Guru Nanak questioned the Pandit about the significance of it. 3. When Guru Nanak saw people giving water to Sun, he questioned the purpose. When the answer was “sending water to their Pitter (forefathers), Guru Nanak did not satisfy from the answer. Guru Nanak started throwing water to the opposite direction. When people question him, Guru Nanak replied that his farms are dry without water and he is sending water to his farm. This was very simple answer to the orthodox Brahmins and others, regarding sending water to their forefathers in heaven. 4. When at Mecca, Guru Nanak was sleeping, the Maulvi asked Guru Nanak, why he was sleeping while keeping his feet toward Allah. Guru Nanak simply asked Maulvi to move the feet to the direction, where there is no Allah. So these are the few examples which made Guru Nanak as a God sent man with the Truth. When the people realized that Guru Nanak is the only person who can lead them to the right path, they started following him and became his disciples i.s. Shish (later on known as Sikh). These Shish (Sikhs) became the new sect or group or religion of Sikhism. This is what I visualise the Sikhism. Everybody has his/her own way of visualising the same thing with different perspectives. Upto Guru Teghbahadurji, these Sikhs were the followers of the Gurus teaching. Guru Gobind Singhji baptized these people after Amrit Pan and made them Khalsa (Pure) prescribed them a uniform of 5Ks.

    Your second point is: Why do you think God created humanity?

    My answer is: God is inside human being which tell us what is right and what is wrong. God does not live anywhere else. Thus in my opinion, humanity is a creation of human being and nothing else. Without parents, child cannot be born and all Gurus and Paghambers were born though their parents.

    Your third point is: Does it mean 5Ks are unnecessary?

    My answer is: 5Ks are very necessary for those who are Baptized. A simple example is that when one joins army or police force, he is bound to wear the prescribed uniform (to be recognized to belong to that force) and following the code of conduct prescribe for him. Without joining police force, if one wears the uniform, he is know as impersonator and if caught, is punished severely. Likewise, if a man is not Baptized and wear 5Ks, he/she is liable to be punished in the court of Guru Gobind Singhji.

    Your last question is:

    “Finally, what are your views regarding re-birth as Amarpal believes that "those who are not able to merge have to take rebirth"?

    My personal view is that there is no rebirth. Gurbani says: “Jeon Jal Mae Jal Aiy Khatan, Tyon Joaty Sangh Jot Samanah”. This belief of re-birth was the inception of Brahmins, who used to tell the stories to the innocent people to earn their livelihood.

    Rest, Amarpalji has a vast knowledge and study of Gurbani and can explain this as well as my other points, in detail.

    With love and respect for all. If any of my views, hurt somebody, I wholeheartly apologize for that.

    Thanks
    Pul Chuk Maf!
     
  20. Neutral Singh

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    Dear Amarjit,

    Once again thanks for taking the time to answer my queries.

    Perhaps, just to wrap it up, I am going to take the liberty to join two of your points and draw a conclusion. You believe that "God is inside human being which tell us what is right and what is wrong. God does not live anywhere else." Secondly, "my personal view is that there is no rebirth."

    So, may I draw a conclusion that there is no evil in this world, since, according to your belief, God lives in all? This lead to my final two-fold question:

    What causes people to behave wickedly, sin, and reject God then?
    What happens to people who have personified evil with their actions, the likes of Hitler and Pol Pot?

    Rgds
    Truth Seeker
     
  21. Neutral Singh

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    Dear Amarjit Jee,

    1. My understanding is the same as yours: Siri Guru Nanak Dev Jee never started any religion.

    2. My understanding is that 'The Sat' resides in me and every where else.

    3. My position on 5 Ks is identical to yours.

    4. My position on rebirth was similar to yours till recently.

    It changed when I read the findings of the research on 'Identical Twins' This post will become too long if I dwell on these findings. From what I read, I was compelled to accept that our life in part is destiny. What creates this destiny I still do not know very clearly.

    After this learning, I followed, for a very limited period, the happenings in the life of identical twins (girls)whom I know at family level very closely. These girls got married within a span of about one year. There was no linkage between the two marriages. Yet, to my surprise the spouses for these girls came from the same city in USA and were living few blocks away on the same street.

    This research on 'Identical Twins' and my own observations forced me to accept that part of our life is destiny. Today with what ever I have learnt, I cannot find any better basis than rebirth to explain this happening.

    This belief in rebirth comes from secular research and from any religious doctrine.

    With love and respect for all.

    Amarpal
     

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