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Controversial Sikhs & Multiculturalism in UK

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by kaur-1, Oct 19, 2006.

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  1. kaur-1

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    Sikhs & Multiculturalism in Uk
    From Veil to Kirpan…..
    By Jagjit Singh

    Pyare jio, a couple of days ago Tony Blair made a very dramatic statement with regard to issue of muslim women wearing veils, in his monthly news conference. Due to large number of news stories on that day, many people may have missed this statement. He said it is “a mark of separation”. This is quite a dramatic use of words by a Labour leader, and gives complete backing to the path which has been set by the former Foreign Minister, Jack Straw. Tony Blair is a trained lawyer and has clear intention behind his use of words.

    Many Sikhs are disregarding what is happening in UK, as just a “muslim problem”. The daily onslaught on news stories against muslims, is seen by some as something they have instigated themselves, or part of a larger West vs Islam confrontation. Many Sikhs who have grown up in UK, have had bad experiences with muslims, and do lack sympathy for their current situation. We tend to disassociate ourselves from them and are uncomfortable with the word “asian”.

    The attacks of 9/11 changed the world. The attitudes in the West changed from being dominant with liberal attitudes, to one which dominated by conservative attitudes. Multiculturalism had flourished in UK, and many ethnic groups won rights which made them at ease with UK. In many areas, multi-culturalism has been celebrated to promote an area. The most prominent being the London bid for the Olympics, in which London was shown as the most diverse city, proud of its ethnic minorities.

    However the subsequent attack of 7/7 and the general bad press of Islam have hardened attitudes against muslims. But its impact will be felt by other ethnic minorities, because UK has moved from a stance of “lets celebrate the distinctiveness of others” to one of “is their distinctiveness a threat to social integration?”

    For either, Jack straw or Tony Blair to make such comments before would have been political suicide. But they are well aware that these comments are very populist. For example on Radio 5, a national radio station, Jack Straw received 95% support for his stance that muslim women should remove their veils in front of him.

    Where does this leave Sikhs?

    The day after Tony Blairs comment, the Independent newspaper had a special insert where it compared the muslim hijab or veil to that of the Christian cross, Jewish top cap and Sikh Turban. What we have to wake up to is that this debate is taking place in the arena of Islam vs West, but in fact it is eroding the core principles of multiculturalism. It is now common to hear political commentators stating the multiculturalism has failed in UK. Has it really? I sincerely hope not…

    But it leaves the question…If a veil is a “mark of separation” and “makes people outside the community feel uncomfortable” as Tony Blair states, then does the Sikh Turban do the same?

    This leads to more questions….Is religious expression a right? By wearing religious symbols are we less British? Do religious symbols pose a threat to social integration?

    In the case of veils, Sikhism rejects the wearing of veils. Sahib Siri Guru Amar das ji specifically asked women from muslim backgrounds who attended his congregations to remove their veils, before entering the darbaar. Ideologically, I reject the veil as a means of suitable dress code for a male or female. However, I do feel sympathetic to any young woman who wishes to wear one, but is now seen as an instigator of social disharmony in UK by that choice. These young muslim women are not downtrodden as portrayed in the media. In fact, they are often highly intelligent and confident young women who just wish to physically display their pride in their faith. This is no different to young Sikh men who wear Dumallas (large turbans) and young sikh women who wears Keskis (turbans). My Dummalla (turban) and my beard are religious symbols that make me complete distinct within British society, and this something we are intentionally proud of wearing. I have never seen my dumalla as a threat to social integration, and in fact, I have never had any problems integrating into any part of society.

    French Policy & UK Policy?

    However what does ring alarm bells, is how easily people are taking the veils issue and comparing it with that of the Christian cross, Jewish cap and Sikh Turban. Many European countries are concerned with the population growth within Muslims, and see that as a threat to social harmony within their country. At times, they are targeting Islam directly, and others indirectly as a response. France has put in place policies which will make muslims a social under-class by denying them education if the refuse to remove the hijab. However they have clubbed Sikhs into this regardless of the contribution of Sikhs in WW1 & WW2. As a result Sikh children are not attending school if they refuse to remove turbans and patkas. This is purely a side effect of a policy against muslims.

    In UK, Sikhs are far more secure. Although multiculturalism as a policy is under threat, its impact is probably irreversible. However we do need to look at where is Labour going with this issue of veils? Is there a distinct policy behind the comments of Jack Straw, or is this political pandering to populism rather than political ideals. If it is just populism, then that is far more dangerous than a clear government policy, because then path is out of control, with an un-known destination.

    From Veil to Kirpan…

    Many people in UK have become used to Sikh Turbans. We do not suffer from the same ignorance as those Sikhs who live in USA, where ever turban wearing person is seen as Bin laden.

    However one does wonder if the Veil is so controversial, how long will it take for the media to pick up on the Kirpan? Now that it is open season on religious symbols, Sikhs in UK may well find themselves up against a populist stance by politicians against the Kirpan. Certainly we will find politicians and press far less sympathetic to the religious right to the Kirpan.

    Maybe more Sikhs and sikh leaders need to be more vocal on this onslaught against multiculturalism, and see its impact as far bigger than mere Islamophobia.

    Is there a Sikh Response?

    I feel that Sikhs have always had a problem with coherent communication to the masses about Sikhism. When the “behzti affair” occurred, the Sikh voice was challenged and found lacking. Similar to muslims at the moment, where they have no coherent response to the daily onslaught. In fact, the militants within their ranks have more media coverage, which has just led to a siege mentality within their community.

    Sikhs need to organise themselves, rather than wait for some incident to occur, and then wonder what shall we do? There are sections of the media, the usual suspects like the Daily Express and Daily Mail, who have made irresponsible coverage of Sikhs in the past. Even the Telegraph has attacked Sikhs directly.

    Sikhs need to set up an organisation like SMART - Sikh Media Action Response Team. An organisation of educated and media savvy young Sikhs who can give a Gurmat Response to all issues facing Sikhs and non –sikh issues in a coherent manner.

    We can no longer rely on silence, or a Gurdwara Pardan to speak for Sikhs. The world is a different place and Sikhs need to ensure they have a coherent voice. This voice needs to start by assessing the current onslaught on multiculturalism and its lasting impact on Sikhs in UK.




    --------------------
    One God: Waheguru
    One Guru : Sahib Siri Guru Granth sahib Ji.
    One Group : Guru Khalsa Panth!


    This should be the Motto of Our Generation
     
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  3. satwant

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    I agree that the Sikhs do not have any voice whenever they are discriminated. The SGPC is just another body that does not seem to care for the affairs outside Punjab and I wonder why is it that they are considered as the highest body in the Sikh institution?

    The issue of Sikhs wearing turban was also raised in Singapore but we were fortunate as we were defended by the government on our right to wear the turban.

    It is sad day when our brothers and sisters in Europe, especially France, cannot practise their faith without being marginalised. i was impressed by a video I watched on youtube about the two Sikhs posing questions to their non-Sikh friends about our faith and the video is a demonstaration about the reality about the ignorance of our faith.

    Let's form an organisation that will give voice and credibility to our faith that Sikhs are different from the Muslims and we should be respected for our beliefs.

    Satwant
     
  4. SikhMinded

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    Kulwinder Singh Thandi~
    1988-Until now-And Forever After

    In so many ways your point is very tru, and as you said the world is a very different place now then it was years ago. Now giving up a cultural identy or religous is something no one wants to do.

    But can we really expect to fight years and years? how would you like to have ten guest over your house for dinner and movie and threw out the whole night, you dont get to see there face ? All ten guest leave, and unless they come up to you in the future and tell you who they are, you have no other way of determining who those ten guest were.

    now i know culturally they do not want to remove there viel but is there not some way to safely respect both worlds? I'm sure there is someway.

    Respect culture is something we all want, When you think about it, a Sikh is almost wearing a veil also, long beard covers most of lower face, and turban covers head so soon after complaining about Women and Veils, there next target will surely be a Sikh.

    But I still believe there is some way of making both worlds happy ..HOW? im not sure but theres has to be something because as much as i wanna respect women wearing veil it is a very uncomfortable feeling speaking to someone and not knowing if you'll ever be able to rememeber them, they may walk right passed you , and you would never know it.

    And also its also a threat to the women wearing viel,

    Exammple

    What if women wearing veil on street, in public gets in a taxi near a cofee shop. now hours later her family figures out she is missing, how are they suppose to go around town asking people if they seen her when no one knows which Veil wearing women was her?

    SO MUCH to think about in this situation for both side and all other angles.

    Kulwinder Singh Thandi

    Yahoo: SikhMinded@yahoo.com

    A.I.M; Punjabimaffia55

    MSN: DjKuee@Kermantel.net
     
  5. sarbjit_01

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    i agree and everything that i would say has been said so ill leave it at that
     
  6. jag69

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    Agree with you all on this. TO SikhMinded....irrespective of 10 people wearing veils at a dinner party, does it matter what the other person looks like? Does it really matter that you cannot see them? They are still an individual, and their words and thoughts are MORE important. I personally have no problem if the other person wears a veil, cross, or whatever. The main issue is that you (not you personally) have to see the other person for who they are, and not by physical appearance.

    One word, and it comes from the Ghetto "RESPECT"
     
  7. lionsingh

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    The veil is not mandated as the turban was.

    The fallacy of the OP is that if the veil is attacked then so will Sikh articles of faith.

    This is a clear rubbish !!!

    The veil was clearly rejected by Guru Gobind

    “The veil of falsehood shall be torn down from within you, and Truth shall come to dwell in the mind.”

    The veil is false and wrong.
     
  8. spnadmin

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    Guru Gobind Singh rejected the veil for Sikh women. Did he opine on the veil for Muslim women. Not..............

    The issue is not that there is a one on one connection between banning a veil and banning a dastar. The issue is that there is a slippery slope, once religious attire is banned for one group then in the interest of being consistent it is banned for all others. The implications affect members of all faiths.

    Note: A child of amritdhari parents in Britain who wishes to take a school trip to France is forbidden to wear a patka in public places, such as art museums, as of the recent bans mandated on the heels of the ban on burqa.

    So it has been a slippery slope. Lots of sliding down the hill. swordfight
     
  9. lionsingh

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    This is a false argument. There is NO demand in Islam to wear the viel. It is a cultural concept to enslave women. THE GURUS CONDEMN YOUR VIEW !!!!

    As a Sikh if I neglect to wear the Turban, am I a lesser Sikh ? NO !!!! Is the turban a integral part of its faith or article that Sikhs wore that is sacred...Yes... Is the viel ??? NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

    The only people to be allowed to wear the Turban were the RAJPUTS and MUNGHAL RULERS......It was a Princely symbol that Guru Gobind made the decree....

    From hence forth ALL people,all castes would wear the Turban as an article of faith....and ALL WERE KINGS !!!!

    From the dictaks of the evil rulers...He changed all brave new Sikhs to believe they were equal. Each Sikh had the turban as did all nobles...They did not hide. We are just 25-30 million Sikhs in the world....

    How dare you compare the veil to the turban. The turban has / had NO PROBLEMS until you try to associate the Islamic creed to subjegate women into sacks and then say you want equality.

    FACT...... The turban and Sikhs are well respected throughout the world and the Turban is seen is a very positive light.

    FACT...... The veil is a subjagation of women as to hide them.

    FACT

    “The veil of falsehood shall be torn down from within you, and Truth shall come to dwell in the mind.” Guru Gobind

    The role of women in Sikhism is outlined in the Sikh scriptures, which state that the Sikh woman is to be regarded as equal to the Sikh man. In Sikhism, women are considered to have the same souls as men and an equal right to grow spiritually

    Guru Angad Dev encouraged education for women. Guru Amar Das condemned sati, female infanticide and the wearing of veils

    :angryadminkaur:
     
  10. lionsingh

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    2 gurus rejected the viel......admin knows better doesnt it. Quotes from the other coming soon ;-:))
     
  11. spnadmin

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    You are right that 2 gurus rejected the veil.

    The post above does not satisfy my objections regarding a slippery slope that curtails expression of religion.

    We are now looking at 4 or 5 countries in Europe who are clamping down on religious garb.

    Let's go beyond the myopic.
     
  12. lionsingh

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    Re: Sikhs & Multiculturalism in Uk 1

     
  13. spnadmin

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    Ok Now we have yet another 90 degree change of direction..Lionsingh ji, would you write a brief summary of your opinion. Keeping in mind that I am not the author of the article. What in your mind are the major points made in the article. What is a brief summary of your own reaction in relation to the starter article. Brief. Concise. Thanks
     
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  14. spnadmin

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    Lets start over again by not assuming that I hold opinions and make assumptions to me that I never made. You are reacting as if I wrote the starter article. That only contributes to confusion. I requested you respond to the starter article. Response deleted.
     
  15. lionsingh

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    To answer the question, the article tries to draw a parallel with the restrictions on the veil to that of the kirpan. It makes a pathetic attempt to implore us to protect the right of the veil/burka to scare-monger us in thinking the same will happen to the turban/kirpan.

    The article tries to equate successful multi-culturalisim being dependent on the change in attitudes to the veil and burqa and an opposition to that.

    The article attempts to connect the veil to sikhism with very poor Anecdotal Evidence..if it can be called as such. The Author states "This is no different to young Sikh men who wear Dumallas (large turbans) and young sikh women who wears Keskis (turbans)"

    This is completely wrong. The Gurus were completely against the veil !!!

    “The veil of falsehood shall be torn down from within you, and Truth shall come to dwell in the mind.” Guru Gobind Ji

    The veil is a cultural concept that has been imposed on women who rarely have a choice. It is as if thought they are at fault for their beauty !!!

    "A Sikh casting his eyes upon the beautiful womenfolk of families other than his own regards them as his mothers, sisters and daughters." Bhai Gurdas


    The article professes, like the apologists, that then veil/burqa is a free choice by women !!! This is utterly false !!!

    Indeed, the overwhelming majority of Muslims throughout the world do not believe the burqa/veil is a mandated Islamic prescription. Not only is there a remarkable absence of textual evidence in the Qur’an and prophetic traditions for this heightened brand of religious modesty, but many Muslim scholars go so far as to discourage wearing the burqa/veil because of its alienating effect vis-à-vis non-Muslims. Few are aware that the conservative Damascene jurist, Ibn Taymiyyah (1263–1328), discouraged Muslims living in majority non-Muslims lands to dress in a manner that was distinct from their compatriots.

    It is no doubt true that in parts of the post-colonial Muslim world, there has emerged an increasingly puritanical interpretation of Islam, the most grotesque of which can found in Afghanistan where women are often forced to wear the face veil under the threat of state molestation. This, of course, represents an illicit form of religious coercion, one that has quite rightly elicited moral condemnation from all quarters of the world.

    I do not see the pathetic attempt by the Author to connect the veil and the right of Sikhs to wear the turban.

    These are distinct issues. There is no-one demanding that Sikhs lose their turbans !!!!

    As the Author claims

    However one does wonder if the Veil is so controversial, how long will it take for the media to pick up on the Kirpan? Now that it is open season on religious symbols, Sikhs in UK may well find themselves up against a populist stance by politicians against the Kirpan. Certainly we will find politicians and press far less sympathetic to the religious right to the Kirpan.

    Absolute emotive speculation !!!! ....implying we should support the barbaric cultural tradition of women being "imprisioned" in a veil to that of our rights as Sikhs to carry the kirpan. It is a dishonest approach !!!! Sikhs have accepted that we should be allowed to carry "ceremonial" kirpans in western countries. We do not see/hear of Sikhs using their kirpans in crime nor violence in the press do we ? The vast majority of British people accept the right of Sikhs to carry the kirpan. They do not accept the subjegation of women by cultural veils.

    The article is very very poor journalism ..if it can be called that. It is a pathetic attempt to cause undue panic/concern in that an attack on the veil is an attack on Sikhism !!! That is WRONG.

    Bhikhu Parekh counters what he sees as the tendencies to equate multiculturalism with racial minorities "demanding special rights" and to see it as promoting a "thinly veiled racism". Instead, he argues that multiculturalism is in fact "not about minorities" but "is about the proper terms of relationship between different cultural communities", which means that the standards by which the communities resolve their differences, e.g., "the principles of justice" must not come from only one of the cultures but must come "through an open and equal dialogue between them."

    The veil is an affront to man/womankind. peacesignkaur



    I 100% support the right of each to worship...but also the right of our society to protect the weak.
     
  16. findingmyway

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    Lionsingh,
    I think you are missing the point. We know the distinction between veil and turban but the avergae joe on the street does not. The media puts the 2 things in 1 category, law puts the 2 things in 1 category and most people think of the 2 things as alike. Therefore, laws affecting one, will affect the other by default. Whatever the background philosophy, that is the truth of the modern world and persuading people otherwise will take an eternity.
     
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  17. lionsingh

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    I suppose it is our job to make clear distinctions. We are tolerant but the two issues cannot be compared.

    We cannot defend something and unnatural like the veil because we dont believe we can justify the turban or kirpan. That is being disingenuous.

    I do believe in freedom...but also in a society we have certain values that are central. Equality is one such thing. This country is great in that we have many cultures who have successfully integrated here and many aspects of the home culture has been incorporated into the UK.

    However I am against say child circumcition, forced marriages, polygamy ..... etc.

    My basic point is that the article is wrong to connect the two issues and that it is cowardice not to stand up against something I am against..Veils.. and then to keep quite because I dont think I could persuade reasonable people the importance of the kirpan.

    To re-iterate.. I am against the veil/burqa ..It is an insult to man/womankind. How many Kaurs would accept wearing such backward cultural attire in subjugation to insecure menfolk ????

    My sister would be the first to veil my mouth for suggesting such an evil thing.

    The kirpan has been accepted as an integral part of Sikhism and thus exceptions have been made in the common law to allow Sikhs to carry it. We have argued successfully for our rights to wear and carry our religious symbols.

    WE HAVE SUCCESSFULLY ARGUED SUCH CASES AND WON !!!!! You state "law puts the 2 things in 1 category"....You are WRONG !!!!!!! .... as some recent cases in the UK,USA and Canada have shown...Happy to provide more legal rulings. You state "Therefore, laws affecting one, will affect the other by default"... which is complete nonsense !!! Look at legal case history !!!!!!!!!!!!

    There are two main areas where the Sikhs come into potential conflict with the law of the land;in the UK

    The first is the wearing of a turban, whilst riding a motor cycle. Under the Motor Cycles (Protective Helmets) Regulations 1980 there is a specific exemption for Sikhs wearing turbans,
    Secondly, is the Kirpan (Dagger). Some police officers may believe Sikhs carry the dagger as an offensive weapon. Under the Criminal Justice Act 1988, which deals with carrying articles with points or blades, there is an exemption, if the person is carrying the item for religious reasons. There is however, no specific exemption under the Prevention of Crimes Act 1953. The person carrying the offensive weapon would have to show that they had a reasonable excuse. The inference being that the carrying of the Kirpan for religious reasons would fall into this category.
    In practice, Sikhs who carry the Kirpan will often only carry a very small knife, which could be described as ornamental rather than the original version, which, therefore, complies with their religion.

    Is It Legal To Carry A Kirpan In Britain?
    Yes it is! Under the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (section 139) and Criminal Justice 1996 (section 3 and 4) allows anyone to carry a blade exceeding the length of 3 inches for religious, cultural or work related reasons. The Criminal Justice Act and the 2003 Religious Discrimination Act safeguards the Sikhs to carry the Kirpan.

    www.publications.parliament.uk



    In the 2006, the Supreme Court of Canada's decision in Multani v. Commission scolaire Marguerite‑Bourgeoys, the court held that the banning of the kirpan in a school environment is against Canada's Charter of Rights and Freedoms. The issue started when a 12 year old student dropped a 20 cm (8 inches) long kirpan in school. School staff and parents were very concerned, and the student was required to attend school under police supervision until the court decision was reached.

    Kirpan Recognized In a landmark decision by a Ohio Court: "To be a Sikh is to wear a Kirpan - it is that simple." - Judge J. Painter of the Court of Appeals, Hamilton County, Ohio...

    The Court allowed Dr. Harjinder Singh to wear a Kirpan in these words: "Here, it is beyond debate that Dr. Singh is a devout Sikh. A central tenet of his religion requires him to wear the Kirpan at all times. It is unrebutted that Dr. Singh wears the Kirpan out of a sincere religious belief." The Court further states, "The crucial issue then is whether the evidence was sufficient to establish beyond a reasonable doubt that the Kirpan was designed or specially adopted as a weapon. We conclude it was not."
    Judge J. Painter, who "wholeheartedly" concurred with this decision, wrote thus: "I write separately to confess that I am amazed that a case like this would ever be prosecuted once, much less twice, at tremendous cost to the State, the Defendant, and the legal system." He continues, "The Sikh religion has been part of world history since the 1400s. An integral part of that religion is the 'five K's' worn by its members. To be a Sikh is to wear a Kirpan - it is that simple. It is a religious symbol, and in no way a weapon. As long as the Kirpan remains a symbol and is neither designed or adopted for use as a weapon, laws such as R.C.2923.12 are wholly inapplicable."
    Judge Painter concludes in this way, "I cannot understand the purpose for this prosecution which, if successful, would have had the effect of banishing the members of one religious sect from the State of Ohio for its mandatory wear."

    The legal cases speak for themself !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :noticemunda:

    The KIRPAN has been accepted in our democracies...to suggest that it will be banned is SCARE-MONGERING at its worst, especially trying to connect it to the veil !!!!

    peacesign
     
  18. findingmyway

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    It is not scare mongering as can be seen in countries such as France. In order to ban the veil, turbans have also been caught in the crossfire. What is to stop this happening in other countries? This is where we are headed. You think the veil is about suppression and many of us agree but that is our opinion. There are women out there that want to wear it, like to wear it, wear it from choice.

    It is about defending the right to choose and not imposing our views on others. To most people both the veil and turban are symbolism. There are different philosophies behind the symbolism but that doesn't matter to people who don't believe in either.

    Schools are banning crosses, head scarves, karas etc as they don't want to be discriminating against one group only. It's already happening, where's the scare mongering in that?
     
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  19. lionsingh

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    Articles of faith are important to all of us. I accept that.

    But this panic mongering is clearly wrong. In some cultures like in France where religion is separated from the state ... then it is an issue of secularism v faith.

    As Sikhs we have stood up against tyranny. We have always stood up for womens rights. We have protected weaker groups..when we were weak.

    As you say "It is about defending the right to choose and not imposing our views on others"


    Isnt that what the Gurus did...demand equality and freedom for women !!!! ?

    Guru Amar Das Ji... and gave them equality with men. He strictly prohibited the practice of Sati (the dying of the wife on her husband's funeral pyre), "Parrda" (veil to He preached against Sati and advocated the re-marrying of widows. He asked the women to discard 'Purrda' (veil to cover the face)

    Thus he raised the status of women and protected the rights of female infant who were killed without question as they were deemed to have no status. These teachings met stiff resistance from the Orthodox Hindus and Muslim fundamentalists. He fixed three Gurpurbs for Sikh celebrations: Dewali, Vaisakhi and Maghi. Visiting of Hindu pilgrimage centres and paying tributes to the Muslim places were prohibited.

    You cannot in a clear conscience support the veil/burqa !!!!


    ਰਹੁ ਰਹੁ ਰੀ ਬਹੁਰੀਆ ਘੂੰਘਟੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਕਾਢੈ ॥ ਅੰਤ ਕੀ ਬਾਰ ਲਹੈਗੀ ਨ ਆਢੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
    Rahu rahu rī bahurī*ā gẖūngẖat jin kādẖai. Anṯ kī bār lahaigī na ādẖai. ॥1॥ rahā*o

    .Stay, stay, O daughter-in-law - do not cover your face with a veil. In the end, this shall not bring you even half a shell.
    (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p484)

    ਲਾਜ ਮਰੰਤੀ ਮਰਿ ਗਈ ਘੂਘਟੁ ਖੋਲਿ ਚਲੀ ॥ ਸਾਸੁ ਦਿਵਾਨੀ ਬਾਵਰੀ ਸਿਰ ਤੇ ਸੰਕ ਟਲੀ ॥
    ਪ੍ਰੇਮਿ ਬੁਲਾਈ ਰਲੀ ਸਿਉ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਸਬਦੁ ਅਨੰਦੁ ॥ ਲਾਲਿ ਰਤੀ ਲਾਲੀ ਭਈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਭਈ ਨਿਚਿੰਦੁ ॥੧੨॥

    Lāj maranṯī mar ga*ī gẖūgẖat kẖol cẖalī. Sās ḏivānī bāvrī sir ṯė sank talī.
    Parėm bulā*ī ralī si*o man meh sabaḏ anand. Lāl raṯī lālī bẖa*ī gurmukẖ bẖa*ī nicẖinḏ. ॥12॥

    My shyness and hesitation have died and gone, and I walk with my face unveiled.
    The confusion and doubt from my crazy, insane mother-in-law has been removed from over my head.
    My Beloved has summoned me with joyful caresses; my mind is filled with the bliss of the Shabad.
    Imbued with the Love of my Beloved, I have become Gurmukh, and carefree...(Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p931)
     
  20. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    lionsingh ji

    Not a single Sikh in this discussion is ignorant of what our Gurus have done for the status of women. There is no need to continually lecture us on that point. The voters and the body politic of several democracies, however, either do not know or do not care what our Gurus have taught. They are rather guided by the political sentiments and economic factors which shape political views of the voting public.

    Now please stop using the Gurusahiban to shore up your arguments because your arguments fail to take in the reality that France, Belgium, Italy, Canada, and a few othere established democracies are in a case of political nerves over the real and perceived economic threats and social changes that immigration has created. This is routinely described as insidious challenges to "national culture and values." That culture changes continually is not on the table for political debate because stoking fear gets more votes. That immigration policies were liberal in order to meet previous economic needs in these cultures is a rational argument... and reason also does not get the votes.

    I have already explained to you that France has already banned dastar. See my previous post. As findingmyway has explained once a law is imposed it has to affect all equally in most democracies. So muslims cannot be singled out. Changes to one minority equal implications for all other religious minorities. The banning of burqa was only the start.

    Lastly, it is not for Sikhs to tell adherents of other religions what they should wear. Least of all Sikhs should be so doing. When we engage in this kind of soapbox oratory we look like fools. When we are joining ranks with those cultural identity groups who are trying to convince everyone else that their utopian past has been soiled by liberals who toady to immigrants, and therefore we must take back our past, we still look like fools. Given our very history.



    This is getting tedious. Did Maharaja Ranjit Singh ban the burqa? If not, why not?
     
  21. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Thread closed as a temporary measure, until we can stop repeating ourselves, going off topic, and plan to discuss the starter article. Otherwise the discussion on the thread simply stagnates. It will be re-opened in a few hours once time has been taken to pause and reflect. If such similar oratory continues on other threads, the poster will be banned as per earlier warnings.

    p/s No need to get our Gurus mixed up in British politics.
     
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