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Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims And Christians The Relationship! A Simplistic Model
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<blockquote data-quote="spnadmin" data-source="post: 127801" data-attributes="member: 35"><p><strong>Re: Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims and Christians the relationship ! A simplistic model</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>truefriend111 ji</p><p></p><p>I agree that the boat of Truth<u> should </u>fit into any context. And I will try to explain why the verse you quote is being used out of context as concisely as I can.</p><p></p><p>The shabads of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji contain a message for all humans of all times and all paths. Such was Guru Nanak's intention. That does not mean that any verse within any shabad can be applied in a "mix" and "match" fashion with the proverbs and verses from other scriptures belonging to other religions. Why not? The reason is that this verse, or any verse, from Sri Guru Granth Sahib is embedded in a shabad. The shabad imbues the verse with meaning, and each verse helps the meaning of the shabad complete itself in our minds. .</p><p></p><p>Scriptures from all other religions do not send the same message as found in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, even though all claim to convey the truth. That is why it is always a problem when a verse from Sri Guru Granth Sahib is pulled out like the Ace of Spades from a deck of cards, and then is used to prove an argument or illustrate a point. Doing this is also like driving an automobile in reverse gear. The starting point is the shabad, not the verse. One needs to ask, "What is the lesson that is being conveyed by the shabad?" If we don't being this way, then the verse might be incorrectly applied.</p><p></p><p>-----------------------</p><p><span style="color: Blue">If you look at this verse alone it seems to say one thing:</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue"></span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">ਨਾਨਕ ਬੇੜੀ ਸਚ ਕੀ ਤਰੀਐ ਗੁਰ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ॥ </span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">naanak baerree sach kee thareeai gur veechaar ||</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">O Nanak, the Boat of Truth will ferry you across; contemplate the Guru</span></p><p></p><p>By itself the verse sounds and reads like a conclusion. The Truth will carry you across, so contemplate the Guru.</p><p>--------------------------</p><p>But it is not a "conclusion." The verse is introducing a more complex idea. It is the first step we must take if we want to meet and merge with the Creator. If we want to become a "radiant manifestation" of the One. The conclusion is to find contentment with the Naam, and to offer our bodies and souls to God.</p><p></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">When you read it in the context of the entire shabad, something greater is being taught, and the idea of the Guru's boat is the starting point.</span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed"></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed"></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">ਨਾਨਕ ਬੇੜੀ ਸਚ ਕੀ ਤਰੀਐ ਗੁਰ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ॥ </span> <span style="color: DarkRed"></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">naanak baerree sach kee thareeai gur veechaar ||</span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">O Nanak, the Boat of Truth will ferry you across; contemplate the Guru.</span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed"></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">ਇਕਿ ਆਵਹਿ ਇਕਿ ਜਾਵਹੀ ਪੂਰਿ ਭਰੇ ਅਹੰਕਾਰਿ ॥ </span> <span style="color: DarkRed"></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">eik aavehi eik jaavehee poor bharae ahankaar ||</span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">Some come, and some go; they are totally filled with egotism.</span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed"></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">ਮਨਹਠਿ ਮਤੀ ਬੂਡੀਐ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸਚੁ ਸੁ ਤਾਰਿ ॥੧॥ </span> <span style="color: DarkRed"></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">manehath mathee booddeeai guramukh sach s thaar ||1||</span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">Through stubborn-mindedness, the intellect is drowned; one who becomes Gurmukh and truthful is saved. ||1||</span></p><p></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਕਿਉ ਤਰੀਐ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਇ ॥ </span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">gur bin kio thareeai sukh hoe ||</span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">Without the Guru, how can anyone swim across to find peace?</span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed"></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">ਜਿਉ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਿਉ ਰਾਖੁ ਤੂ ਮੈ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਦੂਜਾ ਕੋਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ </span> <span style="color: DarkRed"></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">jio bhaavai thio raakh thoo mai avar n dhoojaa koe ||1|| rehaao ||</span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">As it pleases You, Lord, You save me. There is no other for me at all. ||1||Pause||</span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed"></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">ਆਗੈ ਦੇਖਉ ਡਉ ਜਲੈ ਪਾਛੈ ਹਰਿਓ ਅੰਗੂਰੁ ॥ </span> <span style="color: DarkRed"></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">aagai dhaekho ddo jalai paashhai hariou angoor ||</span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">In front of me, I see the jungle burning; behind me, I see green plants sprouting.</span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed"></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">ਜਿਸ ਤੇ ਉਪਜੈ ਤਿਸ ਤੇ ਬਿਨਸੈ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਸਚੁ ਭਰਪੂਰਿ ॥ </span> <span style="color: DarkRed"></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">jis thae oupajai this thae binasai ghatt ghatt sach bharapoor ||</span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">We shall merge into the One from whom we came. The True One is pervading each and every heart.</span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed"></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">ਆਪੇ ਮੇਲਿ ਮਿਲਾਵਹੀ ਸਾਚੈ ਮਹਲਿ ਹਦੂਰਿ ॥੨॥ </span> <span style="color: DarkRed"></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">aapae mael milaavehee saachai mehal hadhoor ||2||</span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">He Himself unites us in Union with Himself; the True Mansion of His Presence is close at hand. ||2||</span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed"></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">ਸਾਹਿ ਸਾਹਿ ਤੁਝੁ ਸੰਮਲਾ ਕਦੇ ਨ ਵਿਸਾਰੇਉ ॥ </span> <span style="color: DarkRed"></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">saahi saahi thujh sanmalaa kadhae n visaaraeo ||</span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">With each and every breath, I dwell upon You; I shall never forget You.</span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed"></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">ਜਿਉ ਜਿਉ ਸਾਹਬੁ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪੇਉ ॥ </span> <span style="color: DarkRed"></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">jio jio saahab man vasai guramukh anmrith paeo ||</span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">The more the Lord and Master dwells within the mind, the more the Gurmukh drinks in the Ambrosial Nectar.</span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed"></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਤੂ ਧਣੀ ਗਰਬੁ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ਸਮੇਉ ॥੩॥ </span> <span style="color: DarkRed"></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">man than thaeraa thoo dhhanee garab nivaar samaeo ||3||</span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">Mind and body are Yours; You are my Master. Please rid me of my pride, and let me merge with You. ||3||</span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed"></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">ਜਿਨਿ ਏਹੁ ਜਗਤੁ ਉਪਾਇਆ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣੁ ਕਰਿ ਆਕਾਰੁ ॥ </span> <span style="color: DarkRed"></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">jin eaehu jagath oupaaeiaa thribhavan kar aakaar ||</span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">The One who formed this universe created the creation of the three worlds.</span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed"></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਚਾਨਣੁ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਮੁਗਧੁ ਗੁਬਾਰੁ ॥ </span> <span style="color: DarkRed"></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">guramukh chaanan jaaneeai manamukh mugadhh gubaar ||</span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">The Gurmukh knows the Divine Light, while the foolish self-willed manmukh gropes around in the darkness.</span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed"></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਨਿਰੰਤਰੀ ਬੂਝੈ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਸਾਰੁ ॥੪॥ </span> <span style="color: DarkRed"></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">ghatt ghatt joth nirantharee boojhai guramath saar ||4||</span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">One who sees that Light within each and every heart understands the Essence of the Guru's Teachings. ||4||</span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed"></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਿਨੀ ਜਾਣਿਆ ਤਿਨ ਕੀਚੈ ਸਾਬਾਸਿ ॥ </span> <span style="color: DarkRed"></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">guramukh jinee jaaniaa thin keechai saabaas ||</span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">Those who understand are Gurmukh; recognize and applaud them.</span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed"></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">ਸਚੇ ਸੇਤੀ ਰਲਿ ਮਿਲੇ ਸਚੇ ਗੁਣ ਪਰਗਾਸਿ ॥ </span> <span style="color: DarkRed"></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">sachae saethee ral milae sachae gun paragaas ||</span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">They meet and merge with the True One. They become the Radiant Manifestation of the Excellence of the True One.</span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed"></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮਿ ਸੰਤੋਖੀਆ ਜੀਉ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਪਾਸਿ ॥੫॥੧੬॥ </span> <span style="color: DarkRed"></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">naanak naam santhokheeaa jeeo pindd prabh paas ||5||16||</span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">O Nanak, they are contented with the Naam, the Name of the Lord. They offer their bodies and souls to God. ||5||16||</span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed"></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed"></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed">------------------------</span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed"></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed"><span style="color: Black">This shabad is voicing a truth that is not taught or accepted by all the religions that you list: Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims and Christians. And parts of it are actually contrary to Muslim belief. In Guru Nanak's time Sufi's were tortured and executed for expressing some of these very thoughts. Today Sufi worship, for example the Sema of the whirling dervishes, that espouses "meeting and merging with the True One " is illegal even in developed Muslim countries. It is permitted as a tourist attraction, not as a way of Muslim worship. So we can't take one verse of Sri Guru Granth Sahib and say that it can be matched up with Scriptures from other religions. That is what I was trying to say.</span></span></p><p><span style="color: DarkRed"></span></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="spnadmin, post: 127801, member: 35"] [b]Re: Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims and Christians the relationship ! A simplistic model[/b] truefriend111 ji I agree that the boat of Truth[U] should [/U]fit into any context. And I will try to explain why the verse you quote is being used out of context as concisely as I can. The shabads of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji contain a message for all humans of all times and all paths. Such was Guru Nanak's intention. That does not mean that any verse within any shabad can be applied in a "mix" and "match" fashion with the proverbs and verses from other scriptures belonging to other religions. Why not? The reason is that this verse, or any verse, from Sri Guru Granth Sahib is embedded in a shabad. The shabad imbues the verse with meaning, and each verse helps the meaning of the shabad complete itself in our minds. . Scriptures from all other religions do not send the same message as found in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, even though all claim to convey the truth. That is why it is always a problem when a verse from Sri Guru Granth Sahib is pulled out like the Ace of Spades from a deck of cards, and then is used to prove an argument or illustrate a point. Doing this is also like driving an automobile in reverse gear. The starting point is the shabad, not the verse. One needs to ask, "What is the lesson that is being conveyed by the shabad?" If we don't being this way, then the verse might be incorrectly applied. ----------------------- [COLOR=Blue]If you look at this verse alone it seems to say one thing: ਨਾਨਕ ਬੇੜੀ ਸਚ ਕੀ ਤਰੀਐ ਗੁਰ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ॥ naanak baerree sach kee thareeai gur veechaar || O Nanak, the Boat of Truth will ferry you across; contemplate the Guru[/COLOR] By itself the verse sounds and reads like a conclusion. The Truth will carry you across, so contemplate the Guru. -------------------------- But it is not a "conclusion." The verse is introducing a more complex idea. It is the first step we must take if we want to meet and merge with the Creator. If we want to become a "radiant manifestation" of the One. The conclusion is to find contentment with the Naam, and to offer our bodies and souls to God. [COLOR=DarkRed]When you read it in the context of the entire shabad, something greater is being taught, and the idea of the Guru's boat is the starting point. ਨਾਨਕ ਬੇੜੀ ਸਚ ਕੀ ਤਰੀਐ ਗੁਰ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ॥ [/COLOR] [COLOR=DarkRed] naanak baerree sach kee thareeai gur veechaar || O Nanak, the Boat of Truth will ferry you across; contemplate the Guru. ਇਕਿ ਆਵਹਿ ਇਕਿ ਜਾਵਹੀ ਪੂਰਿ ਭਰੇ ਅਹੰਕਾਰਿ ॥ [/COLOR] [COLOR=DarkRed] eik aavehi eik jaavehee poor bharae ahankaar || Some come, and some go; they are totally filled with egotism. ਮਨਹਠਿ ਮਤੀ ਬੂਡੀਐ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸਚੁ ਸੁ ਤਾਰਿ ॥੧॥ [/COLOR] [COLOR=DarkRed] manehath mathee booddeeai guramukh sach s thaar ||1|| Through stubborn-mindedness, the intellect is drowned; one who becomes Gurmukh and truthful is saved. ||1||[/COLOR] [COLOR=DarkRed]ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਕਿਉ ਤਰੀਐ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਇ ॥ gur bin kio thareeai sukh hoe || Without the Guru, how can anyone swim across to find peace? ਜਿਉ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਿਉ ਰਾਖੁ ਤੂ ਮੈ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਦੂਜਾ ਕੋਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ [/COLOR] [COLOR=DarkRed] jio bhaavai thio raakh thoo mai avar n dhoojaa koe ||1|| rehaao || As it pleases You, Lord, You save me. There is no other for me at all. ||1||Pause|| ਆਗੈ ਦੇਖਉ ਡਉ ਜਲੈ ਪਾਛੈ ਹਰਿਓ ਅੰਗੂਰੁ ॥ [/COLOR] [COLOR=DarkRed] aagai dhaekho ddo jalai paashhai hariou angoor || In front of me, I see the jungle burning; behind me, I see green plants sprouting. ਜਿਸ ਤੇ ਉਪਜੈ ਤਿਸ ਤੇ ਬਿਨਸੈ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਸਚੁ ਭਰਪੂਰਿ ॥ [/COLOR] [COLOR=DarkRed] jis thae oupajai this thae binasai ghatt ghatt sach bharapoor || We shall merge into the One from whom we came. The True One is pervading each and every heart. ਆਪੇ ਮੇਲਿ ਮਿਲਾਵਹੀ ਸਾਚੈ ਮਹਲਿ ਹਦੂਰਿ ॥੨॥ [/COLOR] [COLOR=DarkRed] aapae mael milaavehee saachai mehal hadhoor ||2|| He Himself unites us in Union with Himself; the True Mansion of His Presence is close at hand. ||2|| ਸਾਹਿ ਸਾਹਿ ਤੁਝੁ ਸੰਮਲਾ ਕਦੇ ਨ ਵਿਸਾਰੇਉ ॥ [/COLOR] [COLOR=DarkRed] saahi saahi thujh sanmalaa kadhae n visaaraeo || With each and every breath, I dwell upon You; I shall never forget You. ਜਿਉ ਜਿਉ ਸਾਹਬੁ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪੇਉ ॥ [/COLOR] [COLOR=DarkRed] jio jio saahab man vasai guramukh anmrith paeo || The more the Lord and Master dwells within the mind, the more the Gurmukh drinks in the Ambrosial Nectar. ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਤੂ ਧਣੀ ਗਰਬੁ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ਸਮੇਉ ॥੩॥ [/COLOR] [COLOR=DarkRed] man than thaeraa thoo dhhanee garab nivaar samaeo ||3|| Mind and body are Yours; You are my Master. Please rid me of my pride, and let me merge with You. ||3|| ਜਿਨਿ ਏਹੁ ਜਗਤੁ ਉਪਾਇਆ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣੁ ਕਰਿ ਆਕਾਰੁ ॥ [/COLOR] [COLOR=DarkRed] jin eaehu jagath oupaaeiaa thribhavan kar aakaar || The One who formed this universe created the creation of the three worlds. ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਚਾਨਣੁ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਮੁਗਧੁ ਗੁਬਾਰੁ ॥ [/COLOR] [COLOR=DarkRed] guramukh chaanan jaaneeai manamukh mugadhh gubaar || The Gurmukh knows the Divine Light, while the foolish self-willed manmukh gropes around in the darkness. ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਨਿਰੰਤਰੀ ਬੂਝੈ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਸਾਰੁ ॥੪॥ [/COLOR] [COLOR=DarkRed] ghatt ghatt joth nirantharee boojhai guramath saar ||4|| One who sees that Light within each and every heart understands the Essence of the Guru's Teachings. ||4|| ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਿਨੀ ਜਾਣਿਆ ਤਿਨ ਕੀਚੈ ਸਾਬਾਸਿ ॥ [/COLOR] [COLOR=DarkRed] guramukh jinee jaaniaa thin keechai saabaas || Those who understand are Gurmukh; recognize and applaud them. ਸਚੇ ਸੇਤੀ ਰਲਿ ਮਿਲੇ ਸਚੇ ਗੁਣ ਪਰਗਾਸਿ ॥ [/COLOR] [COLOR=DarkRed] sachae saethee ral milae sachae gun paragaas || They meet and merge with the True One. They become the Radiant Manifestation of the Excellence of the True One. ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮਿ ਸੰਤੋਖੀਆ ਜੀਉ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਪਾਸਿ ॥੫॥੧੬॥ [/COLOR] [COLOR=DarkRed] naanak naam santhokheeaa jeeo pindd prabh paas ||5||16|| O Nanak, they are contented with the Naam, the Name of the Lord. They offer their bodies and souls to God. ||5||16|| ------------------------ [COLOR=Black]This shabad is voicing a truth that is not taught or accepted by all the religions that you list: Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims and Christians. And parts of it are actually contrary to Muslim belief. In Guru Nanak's time Sufi's were tortured and executed for expressing some of these very thoughts. Today Sufi worship, for example the Sema of the whirling dervishes, that espouses "meeting and merging with the True One " is illegal even in developed Muslim countries. It is permitted as a tourist attraction, not as a way of Muslim worship. So we can't take one verse of Sri Guru Granth Sahib and say that it can be matched up with Scriptures from other religions. That is what I was trying to say.[/COLOR] [/COLOR] [/QUOTE]
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