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Sikhism Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims and Christians the Relationship! A Simplistic Model

Discussion in 'Book Reviews & Editorials' started by hps62, Jun 22, 2006.

  1. hps62

    hps62
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    Dear Brother

    SSAKAL


    I as a Sikhs look at the relation amongst them as follows.

    This model is certianly not unique and is also very simplistic and worldly.
    It does not explore the divine relationship each have with one other



    Punjabi hindus as mother of Sikhism ,

    Mughal muslims as the father

    British christians as the God father of Sikhs.



    We area harmonious blend of all three.

    The good points of each are in and the bad points are out .



    We are trying to get rid of :-

    caste superiority derived from hindu mother ,

    racial superiority derived from British Godfather and

    intolerance from Bigot muslim.



    I am also aware that this path shall be used decieptly by muslim brother to achieve a foot hold in the christian and hindu civilization to achieve their foolish dream of rooting kafirs from this planet.

    But they must remember this path is for the secular people to tread of which Sikh is a proud member.

    They cannot fool all the people for all the time.


    We shall keep an watchful eyes on such non secular elements.
    We are after all the Khalsa the guardian of all life forms Kafirs or other wise.


    I know the path is dificult and thorny but we shall one day succed in unifying the man kind in to one large family.


    love

    hps62:) :star: :wah:
     
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  3. spnadmin

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    Re: Sikhs ,Hindus , Muslims and Christians the relationship ! A simplistic model

    A post has been moved to the Leaders section because it is proselytizing for Christianity, and it was placed in the Book Review section which makes it off topic. The poster Shearwater has been warned many times.

    Thank you, aad002
     
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    #2 spnadmin, Jun 16, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: May 23, 2010
  4. truefriend111

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    Re: Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims and Christians the relationship ! A simplistic model

    I am with you my dear brother as you rightly said that"the path is dificult and thorny but we shall one day succed in unifying the man kind in to one large family." so if we all try then i real terms we will be the members of one family.

    We all are the members of one family and the creator is one. as it is said in Bible as well as in Quran as well as inGuru Granth Sahib

    According to Muslims an Kaffir is an person who does not follow the commandements of Allah and the one who does not submits his wil to Allah(God/Bhagwan/Dev).

    The same is said by Guru Nanak in Guru Granth Saheb
    hukim rjweI clxw nwnk iliKAw nwil ]1]
    O Nanak, it is written that you shall obey the Hukam of His Command, and walk in the Way of His Will. ||1||

    hukmY AMdir sBu ko bwhir hukm n koie ]
    Everyone is subject to His Command; no one is beyond His Command.

    Everyone believes that the commandments of the God should be followed but the problem is the "Christians" says it is "Bible", "Muslims" says it is mentioned in "Quran,etc", "Hindus" says it is in "Vedas,Upanishads,etc" "Sikh" says it is in "Guru Granth Saheb,etc"
     
  5. roopsidhu

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    Re: Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims and Christians the relationship ! A simplistic model

    SSA,t
    ruefriend111 quoted
    We are trying to get rid of :-

    caste superiority derived from hindu mother ,
    racial superiority derived from British Godfather and
    intolerance from Bigot muslim.

    Yes we are trying to get rid of these three things but how much we have got rid of above things in the last 300 years? Isn.t it seems very slow? All above three factors still prevail.
    roopsidhu
     
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  6. truefriend111

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    Re: Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims and Christians the relationship ! A simplistic model

    Yes I am with you, but u should not judge the religion based on the person who is following it.But We should see what the religious scriptures say --

    1. According to Hindu Scriptures--According to the Hindu scriptures, the Brahmans have sprung from the mouth of Brahma (Hindu creator god), the Kshatriyas from his arms, the Vashyas from his thighs and the Sudras from his feet.

    the Hindu Book of Law, the Manu Smriti, has to say about the duties based upon castes.
    Manu Smriti says in Ch.1 Vv. 88-91 …
    “The six duties of a Brahmin are : Study, teach, performing ritual Yagna for self and for others (mind you, they make fortunes out of it!), giving<SUP>*</SUP> and accepting alms.
    The duties of a Kshatriya are : Study during Brahmacharya (bachelorhood), perform rituals like Yagna give charity, rule efficiently, maintain good conduct and abstain from intoxicants.
    The duties of a vaishya are: Study Vedas, perform rituals like, Yagna, give charity, maintain cattle, sell milk and other products, carry out agriculture, take usury, on loans.
    The duties of the Sudra are: The Lord orders that a Sudra has to simply obey and serve the above three castes without any feeling of resentment.” EXPRESSED IN THE SIMPLEST MANNER! ISN’T IT?
    2. According To Quran & Bible-- All human beings have came from Adam and Eve (pbut). So according to the Scriptures of Muslims & Christians there is no caste,racial superiority.

    Most Imp:-We all Human beings can be united and can live in peace and harmony if we follow the guidelines of our creator in the right perspective.
     
  7. spnadmin

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    Re: Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims and Christians the relationship ! A simplistic model

    truefriend ji

    There is more to the Law of Manu than you have printed here. If you think that it is relevant, and took the time to include its reference, then a thorough critique of its contents is going to be the result.

    Shudras are told their call is to obey and serve without resentment. That is an understatement. How would you like to be told that obedience was your lot over many lifetimes until all karmas are cleansed. Until then the most outrageous sanctions and punishments would be justified. Let's be realistic as to the historical truths that follow from your statements. And at the top of the pile...Brahmins accept alms. Graft and bribes is more like it. I am prepared to refute in detail these claims.

    The important thing from the perspective of a Sikh is that Guru Nanak found all of this to be the root of decay in society of his time. And he found there were too many who were either too weak or too corrupt or too divided to off-set the brutality of Persian and Moghul oppression. So the system of caste and any part of the Vedas that support it are off the table as a source of justice, IMHO.

    In the centuries long search for this one perspective, which you mention, that can unite us, we need to keep in mind that it is indeed "human beings" who take entire civilizations off the path of dharma. Suffering ensues. I would not under-estimate it. I would also not over-estimate the ability of religions you name to put us back on that path. It has not happened yet. Only rare individuals have given us insight into Oneness, and they too were "human beings."

    Pat solutions have already been tried. Please refrain from proselytizing for islam and/or Christianity.
     
  8. truefriend111

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    Re: Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims and Christians the relationship ! A simplistic model

    It was an reply to the post Originally posted by @roopsidhu who says we have to get rid of
    caste superiority derived from hindu mother ,
    racial superiority derived from British Godfather and
    intolerance from Bigot muslim.
    I am of the Opinion while passing on comment look whether the religion says or the person who themself calls them as they are Muslims,Christians,Sikhs,Hindus,etc. are doing it see who is the real culprit.
    As far as he says 1.Caste superiority derived from hindu mother---I agree with him as the religion says about it & I quoted with reference where it says.
    As far as he says-2&3.racial superiority derived from British Godfather and intolerance from Bigot muslim---& also u supported it with regarding the Moghuls. But look at whether the religion permitts them to do so.But if they are not following their religion properly it their fault not of the religion.
    See if any scriptures speaks the Truth of any religion i do quote it in order that they can understand the religion not just by the followers.And i like to post the truth whichever religion might say it.
    As i have seen many of them speak about the greatness of their religion only & underestimate the other religion. But i like to quote what is right if known from every religion.
    As it is said in Guru Granth Saheb--
    ਨਾਨਕ ਬੇੜੀ ਸਚ ਕੀ ਤਰੀਐ ਗੁਰ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ॥
    नानक बेड़ी सच की तरीऐ गुर वीचारि ॥

    Nānak beṛī sacẖ kī ṯarī▫ai gur vīcẖār.
    O Nanak, the Boat of Truth will ferry you across; contemplate the Guru.


    Please refrain from proselytizing.

    Do not mislead yourself or others by quoting one verse of Sri Guru Granth Sahib out of the context of the entire shabad.

    Thank you, Narayanjot Kaur

    p/s These changes are copied.
     
    #7 truefriend111, May 31, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2016
  9. roopsidhu

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    Originally posted by truefriend111
    I am of the Opinion while passing on comment look whether the religion says or the person who themself calls them as they are Muslims,Christians,Sikhs,Hindus,etc. are doing it see who is the real culprit.

    In my post I have not expressed that religion is responsible for these factors. I am sorry to say they "while passing on comment " we should read other's posts carefully. Its very clear that not religion but the persons are culprit. I have not written that religion says it.
    Roopsidhu
     
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  10. truefriend111

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    Re: Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims and Christians the relationship ! A simplistic model

    @Narayanjot Kaur
    I am sorry If i had Quoted out of context as you stated. But here in the above text i had quoted which says "it is the boat of Truth which will ferry us across" and this satement fits into any context. Because it's speaking about following the Truth.

    If at all if do you think i am quoting Out of Context, i will be glad to know the context and why doesn't it fits when i use it while telling anyone this statement as Gurunanak says In Guru Granth Saheb to follow the truth by quoting the above verse.

    And whether can i use the above verse while telling anyone that Gurunanak says In Guru Granth Saheb to follow the truth by quoting the above verse.

    AS i like to quote verses from any scriptures while conversing with friends as far as they are align with righteousness.And i do like the above verse of Guru Granth Saheb which is right.
     
    #9 truefriend111, Jun 2, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2016
  11. spnadmin

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    Re: Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims and Christians the relationship ! A simplistic model


    truefriend111 ji

    I agree that the boat of Truth should fit into any context. And I will try to explain why the verse you quote is being used out of context as concisely as I can.

    The shabads of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji contain a message for all humans of all times and all paths. Such was Guru Nanak's intention. That does not mean that any verse within any shabad can be applied in a "mix" and "match" fashion with the proverbs and verses from other scriptures belonging to other religions. Why not? The reason is that this verse, or any verse, from Sri Guru Granth Sahib is embedded in a shabad. The shabad imbues the verse with meaning, and each verse helps the meaning of the shabad complete itself in our minds. .

    Scriptures from all other religions do not send the same message as found in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, even though all claim to convey the truth. That is why it is always a problem when a verse from Sri Guru Granth Sahib is pulled out like the Ace of Spades from a deck of cards, and then is used to prove an argument or illustrate a point. Doing this is also like driving an automobile in reverse gear. The starting point is the shabad, not the verse. One needs to ask, "What is the lesson that is being conveyed by the shabad?" If we don't being this way, then the verse might be incorrectly applied.

    -----------------------
    If you look at this verse alone it seems to say one thing:

    ਨਾਨਕ ਬੇੜੀ ਸਚ ਕੀ ਤਰੀਐ ਗੁਰ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ॥
    naanak baerree sach kee thareeai gur veechaar ||
    O Nanak, the Boat of Truth will ferry you across; contemplate the Guru


    By itself the verse sounds and reads like a conclusion. The Truth will carry you across, so contemplate the Guru.
    --------------------------
    But it is not a "conclusion." The verse is introducing a more complex idea. It is the first step we must take if we want to meet and merge with the Creator. If we want to become a "radiant manifestation" of the One. The conclusion is to find contentment with the Naam, and to offer our bodies and souls to God.

    When you read it in the context of the entire shabad, something greater is being taught, and the idea of the Guru's boat is the starting point.


    ਨਾਨਕ ਬੇੜੀ ਸਚ ਕੀ ਤਰੀਐ ਗੁਰ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ॥

    naanak baerree sach kee thareeai gur veechaar ||
    O Nanak, the Boat of Truth will ferry you across; contemplate the Guru.

    ਇਕਿ ਆਵਹਿ ਇਕਿ ਜਾਵਹੀ ਪੂਰਿ ਭਰੇ ਅਹੰਕਾਰਿ ॥

    eik aavehi eik jaavehee poor bharae ahankaar ||
    Some come, and some go; they are totally filled with egotism.

    ਮਨਹਠਿ ਮਤੀ ਬੂਡੀਐ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸਚੁ ਸੁ ਤਾਰਿ ॥੧॥

    manehath mathee booddeeai guramukh sach s thaar ||1||
    Through stubborn-mindedness, the intellect is drowned; one who becomes Gurmukh and truthful is saved. ||1||


    ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਕਿਉ ਤਰੀਐ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਇ ॥
    gur bin kio thareeai sukh hoe ||
    Without the Guru, how can anyone swim across to find peace?

    ਜਿਉ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਿਉ ਰਾਖੁ ਤੂ ਮੈ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਦੂਜਾ ਕੋਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

    jio bhaavai thio raakh thoo mai avar n dhoojaa koe ||1|| rehaao ||
    As it pleases You, Lord, You save me. There is no other for me at all. ||1||Pause||

    ਆਗੈ ਦੇਖਉ ਡਉ ਜਲੈ ਪਾਛੈ ਹਰਿਓ ਅੰਗੂਰੁ ॥

    aagai dhaekho ddo jalai paashhai hariou angoor ||
    In front of me, I see the jungle burning; behind me, I see green plants sprouting.

    ਜਿਸ ਤੇ ਉਪਜੈ ਤਿਸ ਤੇ ਬਿਨਸੈ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਸਚੁ ਭਰਪੂਰਿ ॥

    jis thae oupajai this thae binasai ghatt ghatt sach bharapoor ||
    We shall merge into the One from whom we came. The True One is pervading each and every heart.

    ਆਪੇ ਮੇਲਿ ਮਿਲਾਵਹੀ ਸਾਚੈ ਮਹਲਿ ਹਦੂਰਿ ॥੨॥

    aapae mael milaavehee saachai mehal hadhoor ||2||
    He Himself unites us in Union with Himself; the True Mansion of His Presence is close at hand. ||2||

    ਸਾਹਿ ਸਾਹਿ ਤੁਝੁ ਸੰਮਲਾ ਕਦੇ ਨ ਵਿਸਾਰੇਉ ॥

    saahi saahi thujh sanmalaa kadhae n visaaraeo ||
    With each and every breath, I dwell upon You; I shall never forget You.

    ਜਿਉ ਜਿਉ ਸਾਹਬੁ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪੇਉ ॥

    jio jio saahab man vasai guramukh anmrith paeo ||
    The more the Lord and Master dwells within the mind, the more the Gurmukh drinks in the Ambrosial Nectar.

    ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਤੂ ਧਣੀ ਗਰਬੁ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ਸਮੇਉ ॥੩॥

    man than thaeraa thoo dhhanee garab nivaar samaeo ||3||
    Mind and body are Yours; You are my Master. Please rid me of my pride, and let me merge with You. ||3||

    ਜਿਨਿ ਏਹੁ ਜਗਤੁ ਉਪਾਇਆ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣੁ ਕਰਿ ਆਕਾਰੁ ॥

    jin eaehu jagath oupaaeiaa thribhavan kar aakaar ||
    The One who formed this universe created the creation of the three worlds.

    ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਚਾਨਣੁ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਮੁਗਧੁ ਗੁਬਾਰੁ ॥

    guramukh chaanan jaaneeai manamukh mugadhh gubaar ||
    The Gurmukh knows the Divine Light, while the foolish self-willed manmukh gropes around in the darkness.

    ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਨਿਰੰਤਰੀ ਬੂਝੈ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਸਾਰੁ ॥੪॥

    ghatt ghatt joth nirantharee boojhai guramath saar ||4||
    One who sees that Light within each and every heart understands the Essence of the Guru's Teachings. ||4||

    ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਿਨੀ ਜਾਣਿਆ ਤਿਨ ਕੀਚੈ ਸਾਬਾਸਿ ॥

    guramukh jinee jaaniaa thin keechai saabaas ||
    Those who understand are Gurmukh; recognize and applaud them.

    ਸਚੇ ਸੇਤੀ ਰਲਿ ਮਿਲੇ ਸਚੇ ਗੁਣ ਪਰਗਾਸਿ ॥

    sachae saethee ral milae sachae gun paragaas ||
    They meet and merge with the True One. They become the Radiant Manifestation of the Excellence of the True One.

    ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮਿ ਸੰਤੋਖੀਆ ਜੀਉ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਪਾਸਿ ॥੫॥੧੬॥

    naanak naam santhokheeaa jeeo pindd prabh paas ||5||16||
    O Nanak, they are contented with the Naam, the Name of the Lord. They offer their bodies and souls to God. ||5||16||


    ------------------------

    This shabad is voicing a truth that is not taught or accepted by all the religions that you list: Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims and Christians. And parts of it are actually contrary to Muslim belief. In Guru Nanak's time Sufi's were tortured and executed for expressing some of these very thoughts. Today Sufi worship, for example the Sema of the whirling dervishes, that espouses "meeting and merging with the True One " is illegal even in developed Muslim countries. It is permitted as a tourist attraction, not as a way of Muslim worship. So we can't take one verse of Sri Guru Granth Sahib and say that it can be matched up with Scriptures from other religions. That is what I was trying to say.
     
  12. truefriend111

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    Re: Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims and Christians the relationship ! A simplistic model

    What do you mean by "OUT OF CONTEXT"---A verse or a statement which when read not in align with the context gives an different meaning & when read with the context interprets different meaning.--- I THINK YOU GOT IT.


    Comments in bold, caps, and color have been removed. Please abide by the TOS. Narayanjot Kaur.
     
    #11 truefriend111, Jun 14, 2010
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  13. spnadmin

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    Re: Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims and Christians the relationship ! A simplistic model

    truefriend111 ji

    Thank you for quoting all that beautiful shabad so we can read it twice. By out of context is meant, out of the context of the shabad. Quoting a single verse distorts meaning of the Guru, and is also not in line with our TOS. Hope that is clear.
     

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