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General Sikhs against Abortion

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by Hardas Singh, Jun 18, 2009.

  1. Hardas Singh

    Hardas Singh
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    FOCA Would Wipe Away Every Restriction on Abortion Nationwide

    This would eradicate state and federal laws that the majority of Americans support, such as:
    • Bans on Partial Birth Abortion
    • Requirements that women be given information about the risks of getting an abortion
    • Only licensed physicians can perform abortions
    • Parents must be informed and give consent to their minor daughter's abortion
    FOCA would erase these laws and prevent states from enacting similar protective measures in the future.

    One line of a shabad has been deleted. In the future please post the entire shabad.Thanks, aad0002

    This is proof that we have an identity long before we are even born! This pauri says "you" it does not say "an inanimate blob of tissue that could potentially become a life", the choice of the word you is very significant because inanimate thngs can not be called you.

    Please sign this petition urging President Obama not to sign FOCA: Fight FOCA Sign the Fight FOCA Petition
     
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  3. Hardas Singh

    Hardas Singh
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    Sorry, I did not intend to post this topic in this forum.
     
  4. spnadmin

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    Satyadi ji

    I just moved the thread to the General Discussion section.
     
  5. Sinister

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    i support obama...do not sign this petition!

    FOCA must be signed to overturn what the bush admin did.

    the act is fair and only allows late term abortions if the mother's life is in direct danger.

    the rest of the points made is all secondary fluffy propoganda to make it seem like a horrible act.
     
  6. spnadmin

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    Admin note:

    Sikhs believe that the soul enters the body of an unborn child at 120 days. Many Sikhs therefore have supported the right to choose abortion during that period, the first trimester. Before deciding, it would make sense to investigate more completely what Sikhs believe about abortion.


    As usual SPN permits discussion of multiple points of view on nearly every issue. Keep in mind - Discuss the Issues not Personalities.
     
  7. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    THIS is the FIRST I am hearing about this 120 days limit...can anyone HIGHLIGHT from GURBANI/SGGS the relevant Shabad that gives this Info.

    1. The SEX of the baby can be seen/observed by 120 days...
    2. It is small enough to abort..relativley safely...the bigger it is more dangerous to both

    So the 120 days limit seesm to SATISFY BOTH points above...IF it is a GIRL...the sooner she is gotten RID off and New Pregnanacy begun..more chances she will get a BOY..without wasting much TIME. TIME is of the essence or the Husbands side may begin thinking of either Divorce or even murder (SIKHS) Also its MUCH CHEAPER to abort within 120 days..small foetus easier.:wah::wah::wah:
     
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  8. spnadmin

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    Gyani ji

    You are correct. There is that grisly side to the 120 days. I will look up the reference for you in a bit. In fact I was reading this a few days ago. Do you have a different understanding regarding abortion in Sikhism? More than once I have found a website where it is said to be permitted. With qualifications! And is not ruled out totally in the way that is true for some other religions and traditions. It was not my intention to stir things up with my statement. Only to address the need for people to think before signing the petition.
     
  9. spnadmin

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    Well I haven't found the reference for the 120 days but will try again. One of the web sites where I concluded that the Sikh view on abortion is not open and shut is from this article.

    The Sikhism Home Page

    What is the Sikh view on homosexuality? What is the Sikh view of abortion? What is the Sikh view on divorce? What is the Sikh view on abortion? What is the Sikh view on euthanasia? What is the Sikh view on contraception and birth control? The current Rehit Maryada does not contain any answers to any of these questions. Answers to such questions can be found in the Living Guru, Sri Guru Granth Sahib, but every Sikh currently has their own interpretations and views on these topics. It is precisely to avoid such a plurality of views and to foster Panthic uniformity as per the Sikh doctrine that we must rely on the Rehit Maryada to provide us with the answers.

    The Rehit Maryada does forbid the killing of girl children - and that is why your observation on the 120 days is so important. If I offended, it was not intentional. Apologies.
     
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  10. dalsingh

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    It seems like whatever is being done in Panjab (if anything is) to counter the abortionist trend is failing.
     
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  11. spnadmin

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    dalsingh ji -- Yes, and it is the aborting of girl foetuses. There is an article in the thread Kaur Power about this issue.
     
  12. Hardas Singh

    Hardas Singh
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    I've always heard that the idea about the soul entering the body on the 120th day is not based on gurbani, but rather superstition and cultural opinion.

    This may seem like an overly simple question, but how can you tell where one shabad starts and the other ends. Please remember I've never been to a gurdwara, and all of my knowledge of Sikhi has been through research on the internet, and for a limited time from a few books, until my parents forced me to give them away.

    I read all of ang 481, but I was still unsure as to which line I had omitted.
    The central basis for my opposition towards abortion is based on gurbani, so without gurbani it becomes just another opinion.
     
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  13. spnadmin

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    A shabad starts stating the house or mehala (this gives the number of the guru who composed that part of the raag). Tthe raag usually ends with the statement Nanak says, or similar wording. Example below starts on Ang 19, line 7 in Sri raag. The mehalaa or house is 1 - Which means the first Guru, Nanak Dev.

    ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥
    sireeraag mehalaa 1 ||
    Siree Raag, First Mehl:

    ਸੁੰਞੀ ਦੇਹ ਡਰਾਵਣੀ ਜਾ ਜੀਉ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਜਾਇ ॥
    sunnjee dhaeh ddaraavanee jaa jeeo vichahu jaae ||
    The empty body is dreadful, when the soul goes out from within.

    It ends with this

    ਨਾਨਕ ਦਰਿ ਪਰਧਾਨੁ ਸੋ ਦਰਗਹਿ ਪੈਧਾ ਜਾਇ ॥੪॥੧੪॥
    naanak dhar paradhhaan so dharagehi paidhhaa jaae ||4||14||
    O Nanak, they are respected at the Lord's Gate; they are robed in honor in the Court of the Lord. ||4||14||Line 12


    There are exceptions so you have to see in the text where the significant subdivisions are noted.

    This is from Ang 481 which is Raag Aasaa, and there is no house of the Guru because Kabir's bani is included and Kabir is a bhagat. So the text will indicate that.

    ਆਸਾ ॥
    aasaa ||
    Aasaa:


    7 ਲੰਕਾ ਸਾ ਕੋਟੁ ਸਮੁੰਦ ਸੀ ਖਾਈ ॥
    lankaa saa kott samundh see khaaee ||
    A fortress like that of Sri Lanka, with the ocean as a moat around it


    and here the section ends,

    ਕਹਤ ਕਬੀਰ ਸੁਨਹੁ ਰੇ ਲੋਈ ॥
    kehath kabeer sunahu rae loee ||
    Says Kabeer, listen, people:

    ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਬਿਨੁ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥੫॥੮॥੨੧॥
    raam naam bin mukath n hoee ||5||8||21||
    without the Lord's Name, no one is liberated. ||5||8||21||

    and you see that it ends with, Says Kabeer. So that way you always know who the sant/ bhagat is if it is a shabad from a bhagat or sant.

    In some raags the shabads can run over more than one page so you have to pay attention.
     
  14. Gyani Jarnail Singh

    Gyani Jarnail Singh Malaysia
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    SGGS and the GURUS didnt deal with such mundane "problems" due to that - mundane.
    Abortion is NOT ALLOWED as it amounts to Taking a Life.
    Even IF its done to "save the mother"..who gives us the authority to decide who lives and who dies ? Arent we being LOBHI/in MOH..when we choose to "save" the mother...because we KNOW HER..as wife/ssiter/relation/friend....and the "foetus" is a STRANGER..UNKNOWN..no relation..no friend...SO WE SAY..KILL IT...NO harm done..who cares and who knows about IT?? Doctors will decide..husbands will decide..fathers will decide...WHO DECIDES / SPEAKS for the UNBORN ??
    2. Abortion due to rape...again same arguments.Its a crime...why we decide to punish the foetus ??
    IF one is robbed...do we decide to kill the robbers child??? or ROB the robbers family in revenge??
    Arguments can go on endlessly....
    Same goes for homosexuality, euthanasiah..mercy killing..same sex marriage, and a host of similar..HUMAN FAILINGS/TROUBLES. These are mundane and far below the high spiritual message of SGGS....like children squabbling on the playing field will NOT go to the Supreme Court to settle it. It is futile to go search the Supreme Court Case Files on how to settle the case of Mary running away with Charlies Ball or Cathy tearing a page of Billy's book...similarly to search SGGS for advise on lesbians, abortions, and such is futile...SELF SEARCH WITHIN is needed.
     
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