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Sikhism, Describing God
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<blockquote data-quote="CaramelChocolate" data-source="post: 13173" data-attributes="member: 228"><p>Thought this may interest you guys. From a discussion I had with a friend. My response in red.</p><p> </p><p><span style="color: #800080">God is more than a string of names, he is far higher than that. Look into the philosophy of language and you'll realise how pathetic using language to worship God is. I know what I think and feel and it is impossible to convey that through language.</span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><strong>+ No one is saying God is the names, they are just ways of praising him [referring to Hindu 108 names of God]</strong></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><strong>+ Why do you come to temple, an arti or idol would be just as meaningless</strong></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080">I despise liturgical modes or worship, I find them meaningless and pathetic as a way of worshipping God, or praising him.</span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: red"><strong>Then become a Sikh, Sikhs believe the same thing.</strong></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080">Why should I become any religion? I don't believe in most of what Sikh's believe. I may as well become an Anglican christian, my views are more similar than they are to Sikhism!</span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><strong>So you believe in incarnation and liturigical worship [going church every sunday], the fact that one day in a week is holier than another. incarnation would also limit God.</strong></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080">Jesus was not an incarnatrion John, you should know that. And it is not liturgical. Liturgical is repeating a set phrase again and again at a set time or for a set purpose. Church worship changes every week, you don't repeat the names of God over and over and over because that does no good.</span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><strong>Sikhs believe you cant describe God, christians do</strong></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"></span><span style="color: #800080">How do they? Christians maintain that they can never understand God, they merely describe what they THINK God is.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><strong>"how do they"... that implies that you disagree, WHY do you disagree</strong></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"></span><span style="color: #800080">Christians have never claimed to know God's character. How many times do you hear a Christian say "God works in mysterious ways". Nowhere does the Bible say God is....</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"></span><span style="color: #800080">Jesus implies things in his teachigns but rarely is a staement about God made concretely.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"></span><span style="color: #ff0000"><strong>But did he ever say clearly "God can never be described"? the Sikh gurus did... infact the belief of God having a son to Sikhs is describing some of God....</strong></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080">God didn't have a son! Did you not read your Bible?</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080">Jesus WAS God, not his son.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"></span><span style="color: #ff0000"><strong>So jesus is not God's son?</strong></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #ff0000"></span><span style="color: #800080">No</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"></span><span style="color: #ff0000"><strong>Ok, Jesus was God... then that means you can describe God</strong></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #ff0000"></span><span style="color: #ff0000"><strong>As God=Jesus</strong></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #ff0000"></span><span style="color: #800080">How?</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"></span><span style="color: #800080">Say one statement about Jesus.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"></span><span style="color: #ff0000"><strong>The fact that people were able to see Jesus, describe what he look like gives description to God</strong></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #ff0000"></span><span style="color: #ff0000"><strong>The fact that Jesus had a name</strong></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #ff0000"></span><span style="color: #800080">No it doesn't, it describes a mere body.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"></span><span style="color: #ff0000"><strong>That's still a statement</strong></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #ff0000"></span><span style="color: #800080">Jesus had a name, God didn't.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"></span><span style="color: #ff0000"><strong>But Jesus is God?</strong></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #ff0000"></span><span style="color: #800080">Yes</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: red"><span style="color: red"><strong>T<span style="color: #ff0000">hen God has a name - jesus</span></strong></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: red"><span style="color: red"><strong><span style="color: #ff0000"></span></strong></span></span><span style="color: #800080">The name Jesus is a mutation of the name Yshwa, a mutation of Yahweh, the Jewish name of God.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"></span><span style="color: #800080">SO Jesus actually means God.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"></span><span style="color: #ff0000"><strong>"Jesus had a name, God didn't." <<<>>> "Yahweh, the Jewish name of God."</strong></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #ff0000"></span><span style="color: #ff0000"><strong>Ccontradiction</strong></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #ff0000"></span><span style="color: #800080">Yahweh means God in Hebrew.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"></span><span style="color: #800080">Like saying God means God in English</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"></span><span style="color: #800080">or Dieu means God in French</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"></span><span style="color: #800080">or Dios means God in Spanish</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"></span><span style="color: #800080">or Theos means God in ancient Greek</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"></span><span style="color: #ff0000"><strong>Exactly. Give God a name means you are describing him</strong> </span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #ff0000"></span><span style="color: #800080">or Gott means God in german</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"></span><span style="color: #800080">No it doesn't.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"></span><span style="color: #ff0000"><strong>As you will be able to say, I call the supreme spirit GOD</strong></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #ff0000"></span><span style="color: #800080">Waheguru?</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"></span><span style="color: #800080">As do Christians!</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"></span><span style="color: #ff0000"><strong>Just like someone points and me and says >>> JOHN</strong></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #ff0000"></span><span style="color: #ff0000"><strong>Nope, Sikhs believe God is nameless</strong> <u><em><span style="color: blue">[to members, see Jaap sahib]</span></em></u></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #ff0000"></span><span style="color: #ff0000"><strong>Waheguru is a praise</strong></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #ff0000"></span><span style="color: #ff0000"><strong>Waheguru - wow enlightener/wonderful GOD</strong></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #ff0000"></span><span style="color: #800080">What is the Christian name for the supreme deity?</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"></span><span style="color: #800080">In the original form.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"></span><span style="color: #ff0000"><strong>Jehovah? not sure... another way they describe him is in three parts > father son holyspirit</strong></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #ff0000"></span><span style="color: #800080">No, Christians call that deity "God", all three parts are the same thing, God.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"></span><span style="color: #ff0000"><strong>Yup, still a description of god though</strong></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #ff0000"></span><span style="color: #ff0000"><strong>Compared to Sikh believe Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Jews all other religions describe God... all Sikhs say is we can only praise him</strong></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #ff0000"></span><span style="color: #800080">Why praise something you don't know then?</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"></span><span style="color: #800080">What is the point?</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"></span><span style="color: #800080">Why should you worship God if you know nothing about him.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"></span><span style="color: #ff0000"><strong>I guess the Sikh answer would be</strong></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #ff0000"></span><span style="color: #ff0000"><strong>To get mukti and become one with this supreme thing</strong></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080">Why would you want to become one with it?</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"></span><span style="color: #800080">I wouldn't want to live with something I knew nothing about.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"></span><span style="color: #ff0000"><strong>Sikhs don't believe you should describe God and make that as an insentive for becoming one with it</strong></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #ff0000"></span><span style="color: #ff0000"><strong>You shud love and worship God because you want to</strong></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #ff0000"></span><span style="color: #800080">Why would you like worshipping a stranger?</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"></span><span style="color: #ff0000"><strong>Because this stranger is all their is</strong></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #ff0000"></span><span style="color: #ff0000"><strong>After you have experienced all there is to experience</strong></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #ff0000"></span><span style="color: #ff0000"><strong>After all worldy goals have been met</strong></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #ff0000"></span><span style="color: #ff0000"><strong>Thats all that's left</strong></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #ff0000"></span><span style="color: #800080">But I'm happy with my earthly life, and I have been in every existence. Why take a footstep into the dark?</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"></span><span style="color: #ff0000"><strong>Some realize before others, and leave the worldly goals</strong></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #ff0000"></span><span style="color: #ff0000"><strong>God isnt dark</strong></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #ff0000"></span><span style="color: #ff0000"><strong>He's light</strong></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #ff0000"></span><span style="color: #800080">You know I didn't mean that.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"></span><span style="color: #ff0000"><strong>Sikhs say in the end you'll get tired of the world and look for something deeper</strong></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #ff0000"></span><span style="color: #800080">And I thought we couldn't describe God.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"></span><span style="color: #800080">Saying God is light is describing him.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"></span><span style="color: #ff0000"><strong>Symbolism</strong></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #ff0000"></span><span style="color: #800080">Symbolism is still giving him attributes.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"></span><strong><span style="color: #ff0000">No, symbolism is praising him since light to us means positive feelings, we are giving those positive feelings of light towards him, </span><span style="color: #ff0000">or it</span></strong></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><strong><span style="color: #ff0000"></span></strong><span style="color: #800080">Well, I'm not using darkness in that snese. I am using it as we are stepping into the unknown, the darkness.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"></span><span style="color: #ff0000"><strong>Yes, I understand, sorry</strong></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #ff0000"></span><span style="color: #ff0000"><strong>But the whole point of that is that we will eventually know God and become God-realised... [when we've left our body]</strong></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #ff0000"></span><span style="color: #800080">And how do we do that without knowing god?</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"></span><span style="color: #ff0000"><strong>Devotion, undivided faith in him although he cant be described, praising him although he may give us the worst in life</strong></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #ff0000"></span><span style="color: #800080">I can't put my faith in someting I don't know.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"></span><span style="color: #ff0000"><strong>Well then you have a problem. If you believe God can't be described and you can't put your faith in something you don't know, then you can never be a devotee of God as you'll have a recurring cycle unless you change either of those two beliefs</strong></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #ff0000"></span><span style="color: #800080">Did I say God can't be described?</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"></span><span style="color: #ff0000"><strong>Thats the impression I've got since we have no other tool BUT language 2 describe him, you said "I know what I think and feel and it is impossible to convey that through language."</strong></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #ff0000"></span><span style="color: #800080">NO, I said liturgy was wrong, not describing him.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"></span><span style="color: #ff0000"><strong>In that case u have no problems at all. Describe God and worship the God you've described</strong></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #ff0000"></span><span style="color: #800080">I worship the God I believe in, not the God someone else has described. I think that what you feel is far more important than what you say. I can chant mantras all day long but unless i feel something behind it.</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"><span style="color: #ff0000"><span style="color: #800080"></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="CaramelChocolate, post: 13173, member: 228"] Thought this may interest you guys. From a discussion I had with a friend. My response in red. [COLOR=#800080]God is more than a string of names, he is far higher than that. Look into the philosophy of language and you'll realise how pathetic using language to worship God is. I know what I think and feel and it is impossible to convey that through language. [COLOR=#ff0000][B]+ No one is saying God is the names, they are just ways of praising him [referring to Hindu 108 names of God][/B][/COLOR] [COLOR=#ff0000][B]+ Why do you come to temple, an arti or idol would be just as meaningless[/B] [COLOR=#800080]I despise liturgical modes or worship, I find them meaningless and pathetic as a way of worshipping God, or praising him. [COLOR=red][B]Then become a Sikh, Sikhs believe the same thing.[/B][/COLOR] [COLOR=#800080]Why should I become any religion? I don't believe in most of what Sikh's believe. I may as well become an Anglican christian, my views are more similar than they are to Sikhism! [COLOR=#ff0000][B]So you believe in incarnation and liturigical worship [going church every sunday], the fact that one day in a week is holier than another. incarnation would also limit God.[/B] [COLOR=#800080]Jesus was not an incarnatrion John, you should know that. And it is not liturgical. Liturgical is repeating a set phrase again and again at a set time or for a set purpose. Church worship changes every week, you don't repeat the names of God over and over and over because that does no good. [COLOR=#ff0000][B]Sikhs believe you cant describe God, christians do[/B] [/COLOR][COLOR=#800080]How do they? Christians maintain that they can never understand God, they merely describe what they THINK God is.[/COLOR] [COLOR=#ff0000][B]"how do they"... that implies that you disagree, WHY do you disagree[/B] [/COLOR][COLOR=#800080]Christians have never claimed to know God's character. How many times do you hear a Christian say "God works in mysterious ways". Nowhere does the Bible say God is.... [/COLOR][COLOR=#800080]Jesus implies things in his teachigns but rarely is a staement about God made concretely. [/COLOR][COLOR=#ff0000][B]But did he ever say clearly "God can never be described"? the Sikh gurus did... infact the belief of God having a son to Sikhs is describing some of God....[/B][/COLOR] [COLOR=#ff0000][COLOR=#800080]God didn't have a son! Did you not read your Bible?[/COLOR][/COLOR] [COLOR=#ff0000][COLOR=#800080]Jesus WAS God, not his son. [/COLOR][COLOR=#ff0000][B]So jesus is not God's son?[/B] [/COLOR][COLOR=#800080]No [/COLOR][COLOR=#ff0000][B]Ok, Jesus was God... then that means you can describe God[/B] [/COLOR][COLOR=#ff0000][B]As God=Jesus[/B] [/COLOR][COLOR=#800080]How? [/COLOR][COLOR=#800080]Say one statement about Jesus. [/COLOR][COLOR=#ff0000][B]The fact that people were able to see Jesus, describe what he look like gives description to God[/B] [/COLOR][COLOR=#ff0000][B]The fact that Jesus had a name[/B] [/COLOR][COLOR=#800080]No it doesn't, it describes a mere body. [/COLOR][COLOR=#ff0000][B]That's still a statement[/B] [/COLOR][COLOR=#800080]Jesus had a name, God didn't. [/COLOR][COLOR=#ff0000][B]But Jesus is God?[/B] [/COLOR][COLOR=#800080]Yes[/COLOR] [COLOR=red][COLOR=red][B]T[COLOR=#ff0000]hen God has a name - jesus [/COLOR][/B][/COLOR][B][/b][/COLOR][B][/B][COLOR=#800080]The name Jesus is a mutation of the name Yshwa, a mutation of Yahweh, the Jewish name of God. [/COLOR][COLOR=#800080]SO Jesus actually means God. [/COLOR][COLOR=#ff0000][B]"Jesus had a name, God didn't." <<<>>> "Yahweh, the Jewish name of God."[/B] [/COLOR][COLOR=#ff0000][B]Ccontradiction[/B] [/COLOR][COLOR=#800080]Yahweh means God in Hebrew. [/COLOR][COLOR=#800080]Like saying God means God in English [/COLOR][COLOR=#800080]or Dieu means God in French [/COLOR][COLOR=#800080]or Dios means God in Spanish [/COLOR][COLOR=#800080]or Theos means God in ancient Greek [/COLOR][COLOR=#ff0000][B]Exactly. Give God a name means you are describing him[/B] [/COLOR][COLOR=#800080]or Gott means God in german [/COLOR][COLOR=#800080]No it doesn't. [/COLOR][COLOR=#ff0000][B]As you will be able to say, I call the supreme spirit GOD[/B] [/COLOR][COLOR=#800080]Waheguru? [/COLOR][COLOR=#800080]As do Christians! [/COLOR][COLOR=#ff0000][B]Just like someone points and me and says >>> JOHN[/B] [/COLOR][COLOR=#ff0000][B]Nope, Sikhs believe God is nameless[/B] [U][I][COLOR=blue][to members, see Jaap sahib][/COLOR][/I][/U] [/COLOR][COLOR=#ff0000][B]Waheguru is a praise[/B] [/COLOR][FONT=MS Shell Dlg][/FONT][COLOR=#ff0000][B]Waheguru - wow enlightener/wonderful GOD[/B] [/COLOR][COLOR=#800080]What is the Christian name for the supreme deity? [/COLOR][COLOR=#800080]In the original form. [/COLOR][COLOR=#ff0000][B]Jehovah? not sure... another way they describe him is in three parts > father son holyspirit[/B] [/COLOR][COLOR=#800080]No, Christians call that deity "God", all three parts are the same thing, God. [/COLOR][COLOR=#ff0000][B]Yup, still a description of god though[/B] [/COLOR][FONT=MS Shell Dlg][COLOR=#545454][/COLOR][/FONT][COLOR=#ff0000][B]Compared to Sikh believe Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Jews all other religions describe God... all Sikhs say is we can only praise him[/B] [/COLOR][COLOR=#800080]Why praise something you don't know then? [/COLOR][COLOR=#800080]What is the point? [/COLOR][COLOR=#800080]Why should you worship God if you know nothing about him. [/COLOR][FONT=MS Shell Dlg][COLOR=#545454][/COLOR][/FONT][COLOR=#ff0000][B]I guess the Sikh answer would be[/B] [/COLOR][COLOR=#ff0000][B]To get mukti and become one with this supreme thing[/B][/COLOR] [COLOR=#ff0000][/COLOR][COLOR=#800080]Why would you want to become one with it? [/COLOR][COLOR=#800080]I wouldn't want to live with something I knew nothing about. [/COLOR][FONT=MS Shell Dlg][COLOR=#545454][/COLOR][/FONT][COLOR=#ff0000][B]Sikhs don't believe you should describe God and make that as an insentive for becoming one with it[/B] [/COLOR][COLOR=#ff0000][B]You shud love and worship God because you want to[/B] [/COLOR][COLOR=#800080]Why would you like worshipping a stranger? [/COLOR][FONT=MS Shell Dlg][/FONT][COLOR=#ff0000][B]Because this stranger is all their is[/B] [/COLOR][COLOR=#ff0000][B]After you have experienced all there is to experience[/B] [/COLOR][COLOR=#ff0000][B]After all worldy goals have been met[/B] [/COLOR][COLOR=#ff0000][B]Thats all that's left[/B] [/COLOR][COLOR=#800080]But I'm happy with my earthly life, and I have been in every existence. Why take a footstep into the dark? [/COLOR][COLOR=#ff0000][B]Some realize before others, and leave the worldly goals[/B] [/COLOR][COLOR=#ff0000][B]God isnt dark[/B] [/COLOR][COLOR=#ff0000][B]He's light[/B] [/COLOR][COLOR=#800080]You know I didn't mean that. [/COLOR][COLOR=#ff0000][B]Sikhs say in the end you'll get tired of the world and look for something deeper[/B] [/COLOR][COLOR=#800080]And I thought we couldn't describe God. [/COLOR][COLOR=#800080]Saying God is light is describing him. [/COLOR][COLOR=#ff0000][B]Symbolism[/B] [/COLOR][FONT=MS Shell Dlg][COLOR=#545454][/COLOR][/FONT][COLOR=#800080]Symbolism is still giving him attributes. [/COLOR][FONT=MS Shell Dlg][COLOR=#545454][/COLOR][/FONT][B][COLOR=#ff0000]No, symbolism is praising him since light to us means positive feelings, we are giving those positive feelings of light towards him, [/COLOR][COLOR=#ff0000]or it [/COLOR][/B][COLOR=#800080]Well, I'm not using darkness in that snese. I am using it as we are stepping into the unknown, the darkness. [/COLOR][COLOR=#ff0000][B]Yes, I understand, sorry[/B] [/COLOR][COLOR=#ff0000][B]But the whole point of that is that we will eventually know God and become God-realised... [when we've left our body][/B] [/COLOR][FONT=MS Shell Dlg][COLOR=#545454][/COLOR][/FONT][COLOR=#800080]And how do we do that without knowing god? [/COLOR][COLOR=#ff0000][B]Devotion, undivided faith in him although he cant be described, praising him although he may give us the worst in life[/B] [/COLOR][COLOR=#800080]I can't put my faith in someting I don't know. [/COLOR][COLOR=#ff0000][B]Well then you have a problem. If you believe God can't be described and you can't put your faith in something you don't know, then you can never be a devotee of God as you'll have a recurring cycle unless you change either of those two beliefs[/B] [/COLOR][COLOR=#800080]Did I say God can't be described? [/COLOR][COLOR=#ff0000][B]Thats the impression I've got since we have no other tool BUT language 2 describe him, you said "I know what I think and feel and it is impossible to convey that through language."[/B] [/COLOR][FONT=MS Shell Dlg][COLOR=#545454][/COLOR][/FONT][COLOR=#800080]NO, I said liturgy was wrong, not describing him. [/COLOR][COLOR=#ff0000][B]In that case u have no problems at all. Describe God and worship the God you've described[/B] [/COLOR][FONT=MS Shell Dlg][COLOR=#545454][/COLOR][/FONT][COLOR=#800080]I worship the God I believe in, not the God someone else has described. I think that what you feel is far more important than what you say. I can chant mantras all day long but unless i feel something behind it. [/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR] [/QUOTE]
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Sikh Sikhi Sikhism
Sikhism, Describing God
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