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Sikhism and Homosexuality

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by Kandola, Aug 19, 2004.

  1. Kandola

    Kandola New Member SPNer

    Whats are your thoughts on Homosexuality and Sikhi?

    It could be either way.

    for Homosexuality....

    1. you wont be judged on your sexuality but your deeds

    2. if homosexuality is wrong, why did god create it?


    Against it...

    1. god made adam and eve for one another, not man for man, or woman for woman.

    2. why in the anand karaj does it say man and woman being united with god and not man for man or woman for woman.

    your thoughts...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 24, 2005
    Admin Singh likes this.
  2. Kandola

    Kandola New Member SPNer

    gays and sikhi

    i dont deserve to be welcomed. i wont properly move to this forum, yet. i am still on sikhsangat.com.

    we could argue being gay is ok and bad. i just want peoples opinions here. as written below...

    oh and CC, try not to use the word "page", your reffering to maharaj as a "book", a direct insult. i am sure you never meant it like so. the correct term is "ang" meaning apart someone, in this case the gurus. therefore certain prayers can be found on limb.... (whatever).

    id like someone opinion, do you think sikhi would allow homosexuality?


    1. you wont be judged on your sexuality but your deeds

    2. if homosexuality is wrong, why did god create it?


    against it...

    1. god made adam and eve for one another, not man for man, or woman for woman.

    2. why in the anand karaj does it say man and woman being united with god and not man for man or woman for woman. why just man for woman. when clearly their were lesbians during the time of the gurus?
     
  3. Critical Singh

    Critical Singh New Member SPNer

    Veerji, you dont have to shift bases to indulge in discussions. Welcoming a new member is a general courtesy. ;) So, you are welcome to the forums.

    Breath easy veerji, so, do you think Maharaj can be insulted this way? ang or limb ? What do we mean by 'Panna' ? Doesn't this word in gurumukhi means 'Page' ?

    Do you seriously think a non-sikh would understand such a terminology. Guru Maharaj resides in Shabad and even thinking of insulting Truth residing in Gurbani this is indigestable for me. Do you think the english translations on intenet in website www.gurugranthdarpan.com, using the word page are insulting Guru Maharaj ? I dont think so.

    I still dont get the whole fuss over the issue. Nothing in this world acts without a reason or purpose and what is meaning of notion 'allow homosexuality' ? I think, Sikhi has nothing to do with it. Religion has nothing to do with it. Spirituality has nothing to do with it. That is why Guru Maharaj even did not bother to mention about this phenonmenon. Please quote so that i can amend my views. Any person can be a good Sikh as you said above..


    I have no reason to believe your first point. Bible says Adam and Eve decended on this earth only around 6000 years ago and they were the first man and woman... what about the humans born before them ? This theory has no validation in Sikhi. Gurbani clearly says "Aval Allah Noor Upaaya, Kudrat kae sab bandae, Aek noor tae sabb jag upjaeyaa, ko palae ko mandae"

    Let us read and understand what Anand Karaj, institutionilsed in 1909 refers to... Do these Hymns really talk about union of man and woman or union two souls... ?

    Lavan: Wedding Hymns

    First Lavan

    Har pehlrree laav parvirtee
    Karam drirraya balram jeo.
    Bani Brahama Ved dharm drirro
    Paap tjaya balram jeo.
    Dharam drirro Harnam dhiavo
    Simrat naam drirraya.
    Satgur Gur poora aarodho
    Sabh Kilvikh paap gavayaa.
    Sehaj anand hoa vadbhagi
    Mun har har mitha laiyaa.
    Jan kaheh Nanak laav pehlee
    Arambh kaaj rachayaa. || 1 ||

    Proceeding forth into the first nuptial round.

    The Lord presents before you His instruction for the daily duties of marital life:
    Rather than the Vedas or Brahma,
    You are to recite the hymns of the Guru,
    And be constant in the performance of your duty.
    Thus the errors of the past shall be washed away.
    Be confirmed in righeousness and
    Repeat the Lord’s Name.
    The practice of the Name has been urged in the Smritis as well.
    Reflect upon the True Guru, who is ever perfect.
    And all your sins and misdeeds will leave you.
    By the greatest good fortune the mind
    And thoughts of the Lord are soothing to the mind.
    Slave Nanak proclaims that in this first round.
    The marriage ceremony has begun.


    Second Lavan

    Har doojrree laav Satgur purkh
    Milaya balram jeo.
    Nirbhao bhey mun hoey
    Haomay meil gaviya balram jeo.
    Nirmal bhao paya Har goon gaya
    Har vekheh Ram hadooreh.
    Har aatam Ram pasarial Suami
    Sarab rihya bharpooray
    Antar bahar Har Prabh eko
    Mil Har jan mangal gaaeh
    Jan Nanak dooji laav chlaaee
    Unhudh Sabad vajaeh. || 2 ||

    Comes the second nuptial round.
    And the Lord has made you to meet the True Guru.
    With your heart bound by the fear of the Fearless God.
    All sense of pride has been washed from the mind.
    Knowing the fear of God and singing His praises,
    You behold His presence before you.
    God, the Lord Master is the soul of the creation;
    He pervades everywhere and fills all places with His Being.
    Know then that there is One God, within us and without.
    And His songs of rejoicing are heard in the company of His servants.
    Nanak proclaims, that in this second nuptial round, the Divine Music is heard.


    Third Lavan

    Har teejrree laav man chao bhiya
    Bairagia balram jeo
    Sant jana Har mail Har paiya
    Vadbhagia balram jeo
    Nirmal Har paayia Hargoon gaiya
    Mukh boli Har bani
    Sant jina vadbhagi paaya
    Har kathieh akath kahaani
    Hirdai Har Har Har dhoon oopji
    Har japieh mustak bhaag jeo
    Jan Nanak boley tiji laaveh
    Har oopjay mun bairaag jeo || 3 ||

    In the third round the praises of the Lord fill my mind.
    By the greatest good fortune you have come to meet the Lord God in the
    company of the holy.
    Singing His praises and speaking the Divine Word, the Immaculate Lord is
    found.
    It is by very great fortune
    That the pious attain to the Lord
    And tell that story which can never be told!
    The music of God resounds within and we contemplate the Lord God:
    For we have been blessed with a great destiny written upon our foreheads.
    Slave Nanak proclaims that in this third round, the love of God has been
    awakened in the heart.


    Fourth Lavan

    Har chaothree laav mun sehaj bhiya
    Har paaiyua balram jeo.
    Gurmukh milia Subhaey Har Mun
    Tun mitha laaya balram jeo.
    Har mitha laaya mereh Prabh bhaya
    Undin Har livlaee.
    Mun chindia phal paaya suami
    Har Nam vaji vadhaaee.
    Har prabh Thakur kaaj rachaiya
    Dhun hirdey Nam vigasee.
    Jan Nanak boley chaoteh laaveh
    Har paaiya Prabh avnaasee. || 4 || 2 ||
    In this fourth round,
    The mind grasps the knowledge of the Divine,
    And God is realized within.
    By the Guru’s Grace, we have reached the Lord with ease;
    Our bodies and our souls are filled
    With the tender delight of the Beloved.
    I am a sacrifice unto my Lord.
    God seems sweet to me and I have become pleasing to my Master.
    He fills my thoughts all night and day.
    I have obtained the object of my heart’s desire - my Lord.
    By praising His name I have gained the highest praise.
    While the heart of the bride blooms and flowers with His Holy Name.
    Slave Nanak proclaims, that in the fourth round we have found the Eternal Lord.

    Post Wedding Hymn: Wiyah Hooa Mere Babla

    My marriage is performed, O’ my father! By Guru’s instruction I have obtained
    God.
    The darkness of my ignorance is removed. The Guru has blazed the very bright
    light of Divine knowledge.
    The Guru given Divine knowledge is shedding lustre and the darkness is
    dispelled. I have therefore found the priceless gem of God’s Name.
    My malady of ego has departed and my anguish is over.
    Under Guru’s instruction I myself have eaten up my self-conceit.
    I have obtained God of immortal form, as my spouse. He is imperishable and so
    dies or goes not. The marriage has been solemnized, O’ my father! and by
    Guru’s instruction, I have found God.


    Its futile to dispute over these issues... they have nothing to do with religion or spirituality... Just my understanding on this topic.
    Chardi Kala
     
  4. Kandola

    Kandola New Member SPNer

    ah, what i meant was, i am not going to be a permananet member of sikhphilosophy as yet. maybe some day, but not yet. but a nice welcome ji.




    Breath easy veerji, so, do you think Maharaj can be insulted this way? ang or limb ? What do we mean by 'Panna' ? Doesn't this word in gurumukhi means 'Page' ?

    ang is the more politer word is all i am saying. by saying page, your reffering to maharaj as a book. in all gurdwaras you see the hukamnama followed by the word "ang", not page or panna, but ang. a limb of the guru it means.

    Do you seriously think a non-sikh would understand such a terminology. Guru Maharaj resides in Shabad and even thinking of insulting Truth residing in Gurbani this is indigestable for me. Do you think the english translations on intenet in website www.gurugranthdarpan.com, using the word page are insulting Guru Maharaj ? I dont think so.

    hes on a sikhi site, he is here to learn, obviously he'll know now. well saying page is wrong. put it like that.

    anyway, thanks for your input.
     
  5. Arvind

    Arvind Moderator SPNer

    To some extent, I tend to agree with kandola ji to use actual terms.

    Here is an Example:
    I went to my daughter's day care, and one of the kids saw me and discussion was as follows:
    Kid: What is this man wearing on his head?
    Teacher: Thats a hat, my dear.
    Kid: Oh ok. May I have one?
    Me (To Kid): Sure
    Me (To Kid and Teacher): This is called a turban
    Teacher: This kid is too young to understand these terms. Doesnt make a difference to him.
    Me: Well, I dont underestimate kids that much. They have the fastest learning curves. And they deserve to get correct information as much as possible.

    I dont know, if she got the point or not, but extending the same here, I agree the need to use correct terms. BTW, how many times, one has seen a person (of christian faith) saying for holy Bible, "This is our Guru Granth Sahib ji". But I find sikhs quick enough to respond, "This is like our Bible. We call this Guru Granth Sahib ji". Do you see the difference?

    IMHO, So many translations have somehow lost the essence of original source.

    Regards.
     
  6. Arvind

    Arvind Moderator SPNer

    Just an add-on: IMHO, Though we use different terms (even if literally translated), doesnt lead to insults. It is a huge task to maintain webpaedia for beginners, learners, or all other different stages. But certainly, if one has come forward to really learn something, they deserve to get the actual terms, and with simple explanations or perhaps equivalents too.

    Thanks.
     
  7. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh SPN Sewadaar SPNer

    Insult is when it is done on purpose. We all have different ways to express the same thing. When Jaskeerat was about 2, I used to let her sit on my lap while taking Hukum. She tore some of the pages but I did not feel she Insulted anyone or IK ONGKAAR. Little tape did the magic.

    It is silly to think that different words no matter how good the intention may be, are insulting to IK ONG KAAR.

    How can one insult THE SOURCE??? Impossible.

    Tejwant
     
    vsgrewal48895 likes this.
  8. S|kH

    S|kH Active Member SPNer

    I have to argue with your first two points for being pro-gay..
    You will also be judged by your sexuality, if there is judgement. Sex does not mean free wild-sex without protection or to face consequences. Sex is for pleasure, and also reproduction. Anything that comes too pleasurable besides hearing the Guru's shabad is against sikhi, correct? Too much sex, you will lose your correct mind-state and ability to focus on the truth.

    and for the other point, I dont understand what your saying if you say God created homosexuality. That doesn't make sense...he didnt create homosexuality. Darwinism shows that only fitness level matters for a species. If you think God created Homosexuality, the same works for guns, right? So let a person fire a gun through someone else, and say God created me to have the ability to create guns.

    The anatomy of humans clearly shows homosexuality is not something that was "created" for humans to perform.

    Gay sex can only be for pleasure, they have a 0% chance of reproduction.
    You think Sikhi would support this type of path? I think not.

    I agree with your two points presented for being against Gays. The issue of God created Man for Woman, and Adam and Eve is the same as what I described above with the anatomy of humans and their ability to reproduce.

    Your second point is also valid, and to answer the question, one must also think that there were many other things available during the Gurus times, yet our scripture states to refrain from use of such things as they change your mind-state. Sex and Lust are known to change the mind-state significantly.
    I'm sure there were rapists and prostitutes (now known as Pornstars) during the Gurus time also. Gays are known to have more sexual partners because they have no fear for the consequence of pregnancy.

    ** edited for offensive intent **

    Only my opinion, but I think Gays and Sikhi do not mix. Lust is against sikhi, I do not see how Gay Sex is anything different than lusting for another human.
    -S|kH
     
  9. Kandola

    Kandola New Member SPNer

    S!kh, thank you for coming back, i now await CC's response to all this. i mean, everything that is on this earth, god created. if homosexuality is wrong, why did god make it? thats the point i believe you did not understand ji.

    and waheguruseeker, jaskeerat ji tore the limbs of guru ji. how would you like it if your limbs were torn off by accident?
     
  10. Kandola

    Kandola New Member SPNer

    hanji he was telling me he was in florida ji.
     
  11. CaramelChocolate

    CaramelChocolate Well-Known Member SPNer

    Re: gays and sikhi

    I rarely come on here, but to settle this once and for all...

    Just because someone is gay it does not mean they fancy little kids or want to touch them up. Just because someone is gay it does not mean they are more hormonal than heterosexuals.

    Homosexuals are currently in need of a reform. Most homosexuals are stuck within the idea that they must be overly sexual because they think this is the only way gays can be. I am a homosexual that believes, firmly, in sex after marriage. I am not caught up in this.

    Sikhism is in no way against gays. The Gurus studied many religions and homosexuality was interpreted as WRONG by most religions at the time. Guru Nanak preached what he agreed with. He agreed with the belief in one God and preached it. If he agreed that homosexuality was wrong he would have preached it also.
    If you wish to support the idea of Adam and Eve then you believe that we originally came from incest.

    If homosexuality is a choice, then why are homosexuals being killed for their sexuality? Would they not choose the heterosexual path where the attempted suicide rate is not 40%?

    The problem with religious people is that they always assume homosexuals lack the moral code. Homosexuals are beginning to believe that they exempt from sexual morality also. Gurdwaras need to reach out to gays and promote the idea that being gay is OK and that they can believe in sex after marriage. The more gays believing in this the better. The reason why there is such a moral decline with gays in particular is the rejection from society.

    I have, in the past, heard people say 'when we accept gays, they will kiss and have sex in the Gurdwara'. LOL.
    Whoever thinks homosexuals are pedophiles that want to be lustful during listening to Gurbani, let them think it, their ignorance will kill them.

    Procreation argument - So the only purpose of a marriage is to procreate? What about love and companionship? What about sharing something with someone you love?
    Anand karaj - union of two souls - soul is GENDERLESS, since it merges with the GENDERLESS FORMLESS Waheguru.

    Any more arguments do please comment.

    Gays are basically a lower class/caste in modern society. Discriminate all you like, but it will get you nowhere. [Not saying anyone has discriminated, but in general].

    ~CaramelChocolate~
    The little philosopher
     
    michaelulukaiu likes this.
  12. S|kH

    S|kH Active Member SPNer

    Re: gays and sikhi

    That is the first time I've ever heard that...nice reply though, best of luck.

    Hm...Guru Nanak also preached for procreation. Also, Guru Hargobind stated many things on sexuality, and said you shoudl worry about procreating also, and not to use your wife as a mere sex toy.

    The Gurus did not have to explicitly state a thing to say its bad or you should or should not do it.

    As far as the Gurus commenting on homosexuality, they say that lust is bad.
    Now, you argued previously that no every homosexual is overly lustful as stereotypically seen. What I can reply back with is that, homosexuality is only sex for pleasure. Therefore, regardless if you do it alot, or none, you are only doing it for yourself. You have disregarded your parents wishes, procreation and numerous other factors. Even if your parents agree with your behavior now or accept it, that still does not mean that they "had" you, and wanted you to be Gay. Homosexuality is a dead end. You gain nothing from it but self-pleasure.

    Gurus DID believe in procreation, this is seen as the Gurus had kids. Gianis in Sikhism have kids, Guru Nanak also said that one sould procreate. That is why there is no "celebacy" among Sikhs. If you wish to remain, celebate, your choice. But to perform the opposite, and have sex, with 0% of reproductive rate, is something else.

    Incorrect...the same thing can be said about "Sardars" or turbanned-Sikhs. Society is all about shaving, the latest hair-cut, the best groomed man. Yet, some of us still stand out with beards and turbans as if live in the 10th century. Is it mandatory for us to do this, when we can make the other choice? To live easily, and better, and be more liked among women?

    NO, it is OUR personal choice. 90% of "born-Sikhs" in America cut their hair anyway. 10% of us keep it, as our choice.

    I do not see how Gays cant make the same choice to stick out.

    lol, I'm sure none of us think that. Atleast I'd hope we wouldn't.

    As far as the moral decline being a rejection from society...that is something the Gay community needs to fix. Turbanned-Sikhs are rejected from western society, but I'd say the Turbanned community is not facing a drastic moral decline.

    Incorrect. Procreation and love and companionship are two faces of the same coin. Gays can only see one face of the coin, and that face leads to only self-pleasure and lust, which the Gurus clearly spoke against.

    Of course discrimination gets you nowhere, but if you sit idly will get you nowhere either.


    And to set the record straight, for everyone say that questions "Why did God create homosexuality" are asking the wrong question first-hand.

    God did not create homosexuality, for if it was created and its intent was to be used, than mankind would have died long ago.
    Animals show homosexual behavior because they do not have the same brain capacity as us, they can not "think". Plug-and-Chug is their view. Eventually they get it right, and hope for procreation. I would assume Humans were above that.

    Second, you can ask the question, "Why did God create drugs/razor blade/scissors"...is it for me to use, cut my hair/shave?

    God gave us "free-will" to make our own personal choices. Whom we love, how we raise our kids, whether we give into desires of lust, pleasure and other worldly goods.

    Personal choices, just like using drugs, are not always good ones. Religion usually tells us to make correct personal choices.

    Anyways, you should stop by here more often.

    Few questions, if there too personal, then please dont answer:
    When did you find out you were "gay" ? Did it just click to you at a certain time? Do you strongly believe its genetic?

    If homosexuality is genetic, than I will fight for their equal rights. But until then, I do believe its a personal choice, and stand against that choice.

    -S|kH
     
  13. CaramelChocolate

    CaramelChocolate Well-Known Member SPNer

    Re: gays and sikhi

    Just wrote out a huge response then lost it, :( :( :( :( :( :(
    Give me a few days then I will respond.

    ~CaramelChocolate~
    The little philosopher
     
  14. CaramelChocolate

    CaramelChocolate Well-Known Member SPNer

    Re: gays and sikhi

    The purpose of marriage is not just sex, [using someone as meat], neither is it for procreation [using each other's bodies to harvest more beings].

    The purpose of marriage is for the souls to merge, then from then, go on a journey together, one soul, two bodies, to reach God, a true loving bond, and so much more.

    In this dark age, the purpose of sex, for very many people is purely for excitement, pleasure and lust. This, in my opinion, is wrong.

    Sex is only a small part of what marriage is all about, however, apart from procreation, sex has other purposes within a marriage - to strengthen the relationship, to share something unique with one's husband/wife that has been shared with no other person, to give pleasure to them, to temporarily merge the physical bodies as has already done with the souls [symbolic].

    Sex, whether it be between two men, two women, or a man and a woman, can be fully of lust and selfishness, within a marriage or not, or, it can be the total opposite.
    Sex only becomes sinful when we get attached to the selfish and lustful side of it, and we take the idea of sex out of moderation.

    Homosexuality to me is genetic. I believe we must have some gene in us that determines what gender we are attracted to, be it male or female.
    I am a very spiritual person with a thirst for moksha/nirvana/enlightenment, and a desire to be with God. The very reason to why I am not in a religion is due to my sexuality. Religious people often let personal prejudices get in the way of the way things really are, and use their religious scriptures to condemn others [homophobia, even racism in some cases].

    Now take someone like me - a sixteen year old white homosexual who enjoys visiting Gurdwaras and Mandirs, would I really be a homosexual who is interested in God when I know the very things that I am deeply interested in often condemn me? Wouldn't I make life so much easier and just be heterosexual? OF COURSE! Not a choice at all...

    Lust = only wanting to pleasure the self during sexual acts, and treating someone like meat.
    Many homosexuals as well as heterosexuals practice this.

    "Thank God for aids", whoever said that maybe implying that God is punishing homosexuals... Well, more heterosexuals than homosexuals have aids, just to clear up that mix. Maybe those who are promiscous get aids, and sexuality does not come into it?
    By the way, aids started due to bestiality.

    The way I see it, if sexuality is a choice, then so is the colour of my skin... I can go and get a sun tan to make myself look latin, but in reality I am still white, as I was born that way, it is just a temporary cover-up.

    ~CaramelChocolate~
    The little philosopher
     
  15. drkhalsa

    drkhalsa Well-Known Member SPNer

    Re: gays and sikhi

    I totally agree with you that homosexuals behave this way due to something in their composition(genes) that determines what gender they are attracted to.
    Even as health professional i had read lot about this but it was always difficult for me to completely understand it. recently when i personally interacted with some homosexuals it really came to me as a surprise that how wrong I was . Homosexuals are not what they are due to their choice but they are born like that , they are equally moral and have distinct likes and dislikes about their partners . When i first interacted with such a person i came to know that they are so straight in their own sense as they even cant fancy a girl even in their csual talks they are so emotional about their partners and it all seems so normal .I used to watch a series on television Will AND Grace but never belived that what the character are doing and showing in their interactions is really true but now i believe it is true.
    As per mymedical knowledge the possible cause for this is to what kind and amount of Sex hormones a fetus is exposed while in mothers womb determines what gender they will be attracted to , this most simplest way i can explain the mechanism and if any body wants to know detail ,lot of medical literature is available .
    What i think is that it has always been there in human society and as muslim religion condems it , it proves that it was present even at that time much before birth of khalsa but as our society is very hipocratic so they never manifested openly in our society(i mean indian) but they were always there
    the only way to understand what homosexuality is to personally interact with one of them and you will find out that they are are also as staright as you are in their own sense and they can also enjoy the emotions related to sex in exactly the same way as evry other person
    But the only problem which i think there is identification problem as it is difficult for any body to just say whether one is homosexual or not by just looking at person and this allows the space for confusion with other sex offenders and criminals as they may also declare themselves as homosexuals so an objective way to identify as homosexual is yet to be devised

    but the question that still remains is that is there any mention of homosexuality in our Guru Granth Sahib ?and if not then what is the reason behind that?
     
  16. CaramelChocolate

    CaramelChocolate Well-Known Member SPNer

    Re: gays and sikhi

    As we all know, Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji does not really go into issues which raise controversy, the Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is about Gods praises, not the moral laws of Sikhism.
    However, it probably is possible to take quotes from Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and use them to support or go against any issue. Maybe this is wrong, since to my knowledge, the Gurus were never interested in long debates about pointless issues [meat]. Sikhism teaches devotion to God, and that ALL are capable of reaching God.

    Another reason why it is not mentioned was because it was not an issue at the time, I guess the Gurus were more busy settling other issues such as meat, and so forth.

    Only fools argue about eating meat - This has a universal deeper meaning about endless arguements over controversial issues. Stop the quaralling, instead of wasting your time arguing, love God, praise him.

    ~CaramelChocolate~
    The little philosopher
     
  17. CaramelChocolate

    CaramelChocolate Well-Known Member SPNer

    Re: gays and sikhi

    I would like to share the following from a book called 'Ethics and Religion':

    Homosexuality
    In 1998 the Anglican Church voted that homosexuality was incompatible with Biblical teaching. Over recent years debate has raged about homosexuality within the Church. One of the most insightful views on this issue is provided by Desmond Tutu, the former Archbishop of Cape Town:

    "Among baptized Christians, members together in the Body of Jesus Christ, there is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, free nor slave. On the contrary, there is radical equality. But there are some we spurn and shun, because we are caught up in an acknowledged ot tacit homophobia and heterosexism. We reject them, treat them as pariahs, and push them outisde the confines of our Church communities, and thereby we reverse the radical consequences if their baptism and ours. We make them doubt that they are children of God, and this must nearly be the ultimate blasphemy. We blame them for something that it is increasingly clear they can do little about. Someone has said that if this particular sexual orientation were indeed a matter of personal choice, then gay and lesbian people must be the craziest coots around to choose a way of life that exposes them to so much hostility, disrimination, loss, and suffering. To say this is akain to saying that black people voluntarily choose a complexion and race that exposes them to all the hatred, suffering and disadvantages to be found in a racist society. Such people would be stark raving mad. It is of homosexual people that we requite universal celibacy, whereas for others we teach that celibacy is a special vocation. We say that sexual orientation is a matter of indifference, but what is culpable are homosexual acts. But then we claim that sexuality is a divine gift, which used properly helps us to become more akin to God, because it is this part of our humanity that makes us more gentle and caring, more self-giving and concerned for others than we would be without that gift. Why should we want all homosexual people not to give expression to their sexuality in loving acts? Why do we not use the same criteria to judge same-sex relationships that we use to judge whether heterosexual relationships are wholesome or not? I am deeply disturbed by these inconsistencies and know that the Lord of the Church would not be where is Church is in this matter. Can we cat quickly to let the gospel imperatives prevail as we remember our baptism and their, and be thankful?"
    Desmond Tutu in We Were Baptised Too
    ~CaramelChocolate~
    The little philosopher
     
  18. S|kH

    S|kH Active Member SPNer

    Re: gays and sikhi

    I've stated this before, you can not compare homosexuality to that of race color.

    Now, for example, YES, homosexuals ARE subject to multiple tortures of societies.

    But how are Sardars (turbanned Sikhs) any different?

    Do you believe that a Khalsa does NOT get picked on in school? Does not FORFEIT his future job because of his outlook? But he does so, because he believes in a greater cause of his life. Gays can do the same.

    Now, does the Khalsa have no choice at all? He has a clear choice, he can shave, and cut his hair, and be accepted by society, and get an easier job and education.

    Look at France, the Sikhs there are giving up EDUCATION, the only way to make a living in this world for Sikhi. And they do it because of their CHOICE.

    Comparing Homosexuality to something innate such as race color is ridiculous.
    Just because your subject to torture does not prove that its innate.
    Sardars are subject to torture also, but its a choice we make, and overcome.
    Gays can do the same, and overcome the torture for the pleasure recieved.
     
  19. CaramelChocolate

    CaramelChocolate Well-Known Member SPNer

    Re: gays and sikhi

    S|kh, if you cannot compare race to sexuality, then you cannot compare sardars either. It is IMPOSSIBLE for a heterosexual to know for sure whether HOMOSEXUALITY is a choice. I have backed up my arguments, and I have nothing left to say, you can either take my word or leave it.

    I DID NOT CHOOSE TO BE HOMOSEXUAL
    At the end of the day, homosexuality would not exist if it was a choice, look at the persecution we get, the mental problems gays have, the high suicide rate. Even in the west homosexuals are not fully accepted [for example, the recent story in the news of gay man being beaten up by teens].​

    Most people are a bit scared to leave their ignorance behind, but if one's faith is strong enough, then they will go against the majority to promote righteousness, equality, and respect.​

    ~CaramelChocolate~​
    The little philosopher​
     
  20. Eclectic

    Eclectic New Member SPNer

    Re: gays and sikhi

    I find this an interesting argument as with some religions, at the peak of orgasm is when the mind has not one thought. Would this not welcome any Divine revelations? Just a thought. After all, in many religions, sex is considered sacred. For one point, it would be because of the symbolism of creation. In another point it is almost like a tease between being totally in reality and being in connection with the soul. To some, it's the closest connection to experiencing the divine.

    Perhaps it has beocme this way because as we have evolved, this is how we managed to appear to continue the evolutionary process of becoming fit for one's enviornment.

    If this is true, then Sikis should not support the use of contraception?
     

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