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Atheism Sikhism and Atheism: A Philosophical Discourse

Discussion in 'Interfaith Dialogues' started by Astroboy, Jun 29, 2009.

  1. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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    Posts on this thread were moved from the thread, Why Sikhism? (Narayanjot Kaur)


    Hi Ryadd

    I think Atheism and Sikhism are one and the same because it doesn't make a difference if you believe in a God or not.
    The sun is still going to shine tomorrow; the moon is still going to orbit earth regardless of what your belief system is.
    Sikhism wants you to be the observer of these daily miracles. You need not change anything just observe and appreciate.

    Guru Nanak's shabad:

    ਰਾਗੁ ਧਨਾਸਰੀ ਮਹਲਾ
    रागु धनासरी महला १ ॥
    Rāg ḏẖanāsrī mėhlā 1.
    Raag Dhanaasree, First Mehl:

    ਗਗਨ ਮੈ ਥਾਲੁ ਰਵਿ ਚੰਦੁ ਦੀਪਕ ਬਨੇ ਤਾਰਿਕਾ ਮੰਡਲ ਜਨਕ ਮੋਤੀ
    गगन मै थालु रवि चंदु दीपक बने तारिका मंडल जनक मोती ॥
    Gagan mai thāl rav cẖanḏ ḏīpak bane ṯārikā mandal janak moṯī.
    Upon that cosmic plate of the sky, the sun and the moon are the lamps. The stars and their orbs are the studded pearls.

    ਧੂਪੁ ਮਲਆਨਲੋ ਪਵਣੁ ਚਵਰੋ ਕਰੇ ਸਗਲ ਬਨਰਾਇ ਫੂਲੰਤ ਜੋਤੀ ॥੧॥
    धूपु मलआनलो पवणु चवरो करे सगल बनराइ फूलंत जोती ॥१॥
    Ḏẖūp mal▫ānlo pavaṇ cẖavro kare sagal banrā▫e fūlanṯ joṯī. ||1||
    The fragrance of sandalwood in the air is the temple incense, and the wind is the fan. All the plants of the world are the altar flowers in offering to You, O Luminous Lord. ||1||

    ਕੈਸੀ ਆਰਤੀ ਹੋਇ
    कैसी आरती होइ ॥
    Kaisī ārṯī ho▫e.
    What a beautiful Aartee, lamp-lit worship service this is!

    ਭਵ ਖੰਡਨਾ ਤੇਰੀ ਆਰਤੀ
    भव खंडना तेरी आरती ॥
    Bẖav kẖandnā ṯerī ārṯī.
    O Destroyer of Fear, this is Your Ceremony of Light.

    ਅਨਹਤਾ ਸਬਦ ਵਾਜੰਤ ਭੇਰੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ
    अनहता सबद वाजंत भेरी ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
    Anhaṯā sabaḏ vājanṯ bẖerī. ||1|| rahā▫o.
    The Unstruck Sound-current of the Shabad is the vibration of the temple drums. ||1||Pause||

    ਸਹਸ ਤਵ ਨੈਨ ਨਨ ਨੈਨ ਹਹਿ ਤੋਹਿ ਕਉ ਸਹਸ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਨਨਾ ਏਕ ਤਹੀ
    सहस तव नैन नन नैन हहि तोहि कउ सहस मूरति नना एक तोही ॥
    Sahas ṯav nain nan nain hėh ṯohi ka▫o sahas mūraṯ nanā ek ṯohī.
    You have thousands of eyes, and yet You have no eyes. You have thousands of forms, and yet You do not have even one.

    ਸਹਸ ਪਦ ਬਿਮਲ ਨਨ ਏਕ ਪਦ ਗੰਧ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਹਸ ਤਵ ਗੰਧ ਇਵ ਚਲਤ ਮੋਹੀ ॥੨॥
    सहस पद बिमल नन एक पद गंध बिनु सहस तव गंध इव चलत मोही ॥२॥
    Sahas paḏ bimal nan ek paḏ ganḏẖ bin sahas ṯav ganḏẖ iv cẖalaṯ mohī. ||2||
    You have thousands of Lotus Feet, and yet You do not have even one foot. You have no nose, but you have thousands of noses. This Play of Yours entrances me. ||2||

    ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਹੈ ਸੋਇ
    सभ महि जोति जोति है सोइ ॥
    Sabẖ mėh joṯ joṯ hai so▫e.
    Amongst all is the Light-You are that Light.

    ਤਿਸ ਦੈ ਚਾਨਣਿ ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਚਾਨਣੁ ਹੋਇ
    तिस दै चानणि सभ महि चानणु होइ ॥
    Ŧis ḏai cẖānaṇ sabẖ mėh cẖānaṇ ho▫e.
    By this Illumination, that Light is radiant within all.

    ਗੁਰ ਸਾਖੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਪਰਗਟੁ ਹੋਇ
    गुर साखी जोति परगटु होइ ॥
    Gur sākẖī joṯ pargat ho▫e.
    Through the Guru's Teachings, the Light shines forth.

    ਜੋ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਸੁ ਆਰਤੀ ਹੋਇ ॥੩॥
    जो तिसु भावै सु आरती होइ ॥३॥
    Jo ṯis bẖāvai so ārṯī ho▫e. ||3||
    That which is pleasing to Him is the lamp-lit worship service. ||3||

    ਹਰਿ ਚਰਣ ਕਵਲ ਮਕਰੰਦ ਲੋਭਿਤ ਮਨੋ ਅਨਦਿਨ ਮੋਹਿ ਆਹੀ ਪਿਆਸਾ
    हरि चरण कवल मकरंद लोभित मनो अनदिनो मोहि आही पिआसा ॥
    Har cẖaraṇ kaval makranḏ lobẖiṯ mano anḏino mohi āhī pi▫āsā.
    My mind is enticed by the honey-sweet Lotus Feet of the Lord. Day and night, I thirst for them.

    ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਜਲੁ ਦੇਹਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਾਰਿੰਗ ਕਉ ਹੋਇ ਜਾ ਤੇ ਤੇਰੈ ਨਾਇ ਵਾਸਾ ॥੪॥੩॥
    क्रिपा जलु देहि नानक सारिंग कउ होइ जा ते तेरै नाइ वासा ॥४॥३॥
    Kirpā jal ḏėh Nānak sāring ka▫o ho▫e jā ṯe ṯerai nā▫e vāsā. ||4||3||
    Bestow the Water of Your Mercy upon Nanak, the thirsty song-bird, so that he may come to dwell in Your Name. ||4||3||
     
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  3. spnadmin

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    Re: Why Sikhism?

    :eek::8-:)No! That is not. Please forgive me -- but there is a God in Sikhism. The persistent questions--- What is the Nature of this God? And what is our relationship with this God? One can say that this God is not incarnate. But one cannot say that this God has no presence.

    ੴ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
    ikoankaar sathnaam karathaa purakh nirabho niravair akaal moorath ajoonee saibhan gurprasaadh||
    One Universal Creator God.The Name Is Truth. Creative Being Personified. No Fear. No Hatred. Image Of The Undying, Beyond Birth, Self-Existent. By Guru's Grace

    If we do not like the use of the word "God" in this translation then for karathaa purakh we can substitute the Doer/Creator who Abides within All Things.


    Definition of atheism

     
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  4. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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    The sun is always shining whether it is day or night. That's the reality.
    From one perspective we say the sun has set - from the earth perspective.
    But from the cosmic perspective, the sun never sets.
     
  5. spnadmin

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    Re: Why Sikhism?

    NamJap ji

    Once again forgive me -- Not an answer that convinces.
     
  6. KulwantK

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    Re: Why Sikhism?

    Hello Namjap,
    I still do not understand how you can think that atheism and Sikhism are one and the same. Please explain further-much further.
     
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  7. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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    Re: Why Sikhism?


    The sakhi of throwing water to the west is one.

    There are many shabads which reflect my assumption that athiesm and sikhism are one and the same. Of course many atheists today were once followers of religions which conditioned them by strong traditional beliefs. Hence, my approach is not dealing with external facts alone but the psychology of the human mind.

    It does not even matter if you believe there is a sun or not. What matters is if you are affected by it. Having a doubt about the existence of God isn't going to change anything. If you shut your eyes, the sun does not disappear. Because the sun is the objective truth and shutting your vision on the sun is a subjective reality.

    The flow of time varies one location to another location.
    Hence the term: the law of relativity.


    Here's an article which will help you get out of fixation. What is fixation? Will discuss it in another thread.
    The Law of Relativity
     
  8. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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  9. KulwantK

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    Dear Namjaap:

    You claim I am in fixation? How do you define "fixation"? How would you presume to know whether I or anyone else is in "fixation"? Does that mean you think everyone here on this forum is in fixation?

    What are your qualifications that you think we should be recognizing and honoring? Where are you published to acclaim?

    Do you hold a Doctorate in Physics, and if so, where could one get a copy of your work? Surely, if so, you are published! Do you have any idea of Quantum Physics, or have you even heard of it?

    Have you proposed any hypotheses and/or theories that have been thoroughly tested, and if so, how so, and by what recognized institutions and by which recognized experts?

    Have you engaged in extensive studies of the human mind?
    Have you studied at the Havistock Insitute? The Sorbonne? The Khalsa College? MIT? The Vedic Universities in India?

    Have you studied Basic Psychology, the Psychology of Religion, Abnormal Psychology, the Psychology of the Adolescent? Aging and its effects?

    Are you an expert or classed as an expert witness in Psychology, Human Behavoir, Psycopathology and/or Sociopathology? If so, by which intitutions or courts?

    How many economic and political systems have you extensively studied- by extensive, I mean at least several years' worth, to get any true perspective.

    Do you, in fact, hold any degrees, and if so, what are they, from which institutions, and what was your grade point average, and did you do all of your own work, or did you pay people to write your papers for you?

    You have obviously never gotten the point of the throwing the water towards the west, to use something you have brought up. It would appear from your posts that you have allowed your own point of view to very deeply affect what shabads you have read, thereby running the very real risk of totally missing the points of the shabads.

    What, exactly, are your qualifications for judging me or anyone else, for that matter?

    How do you see yourself, and why are you engaging on the line of enquiry you have?

    What are your priorities? What are your goals by posting on this forum? What do you hope to gain?

    Are you looking to provoke people to study their responses? Are you working on a paper right now?

    And finally, Are you really Happy?
     
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  10. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    Re: Why Sikhism?

    KulwantK Ji,

    I am not up to arguments here. My humble request to you is to answer the original post so that all can benefit from it.

    And no you are not in fixation in any way. i was not referring to you but to everyone in general.
    Eventhough you have misunderstood my intentions, I am the one apologizing here.

    MITHAT NIVI NANAKA, GUNN CHAN GI YAI YA TAT.

    Here's an interesting write up on fixation
    The Fixation of Belief
    YouTube - How to Debate Creationists- Part I
     
  11. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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  12. spnadmin

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    Re: Why Sikhism?

    Actually Khulwant K,

    You make some very good points. Why should pseudo-science persuade and spiritually not? Just my thoughts.
     
  13. KulwantK

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    Re: Why Sikhism?

    I have to admit that I am still unclear as to just what it is Namjap wants. Perhaps I am missing her original post. I still do not understand how atheism and Sikhism are one and the same. Just does not compute. As regards arguments, I am not one for bringing up any arguements. Interesting that by my asking questions, somehow the thing got turned into argumentation. Regarding the fixation thing: why should I go to read some write-up instead of hearing Namjaap's alleged qualifications for judging that we are all somehow fixated?
     
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  14. spnadmin

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    KhulwantK ji

    NamJap is a Singh -- but on the net we are invisible - people often think I am a Singh. As for the Sikhism/atheism equation. I have myself read this more than once in forums. When I consult the writings of Sikh scholars in journals a different picture emerges. The matter is really a subject for sustained and serious exploration of what constitutes atheism and what constitutes theism. Even Buddhism has been characterized as atheistic though Buddhist scholars dispute that rather convincgly.

    As for the "fixation" -- Leave it to NamJap to respond to that.
     
  15. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    Re: Why Sikhism?

    :nothingtoadd:

    Better to start a new thread about fixation.
     
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  16. spnadmin

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    Re: Why Sikhism?

    Really like that emoticon NamJap ji
     
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  17. Tejwant Singh

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    Re: Why Sikhism?

    Kulwantk ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    Please allow me to add my 2 cent worth. When atheists talk about non-existence or having no belief in God, they mean by God as in deity, a being, a personified God.

    Ik Ong kaar is not a deity, neither a being nor a personfied God, but Ajuni Saibung- The Creative Energy. The Atheists also believe in the Energy in their own way.

    I have lots of atheist friends who understand the concept of Ik Ong Kaar in Sikhi.

    So, one can draw one's own conclusion how to define the undefinable, the unfathomable, the indescribable.

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  18. KulwantK

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    Re: Why Sikhism?

    Sat Nam, Ji- thank you for the correction! As for the atheism thing, I must say I find it strange that anyone would be able to equate it to Sikhism, or Bhuddism, or any theology at all. I would think they would have to really go the long way around Robin Hood's barn to A) attempt to prove it to themselves, and B) prove it to others.

    Odd. Very odd.
     
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  19. KulwantK

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    Re: Why Sikhism?

    Thank you, Tejwant- this does help a bit.
     
  20. Astroboy

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    Re: Why Sikhism?

    Here's an interesting article posted by one of our members > #53
     
  21. Lee

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    Re: Why Sikhism?


    Atheisim and Sikhi cannot be the same, unless of course you are trying to re-define what the word Atheist means?

    An Atheist is a person who either does not belive in the existance of a creator God, or a person who holds no belife regarding a creator God, not the same although the differances is slight.

    Of course Sikhs activly belive and give worship to a creator God, so not the same at all.

    The anolgy of the sun which you give us here is of course a false anology. To disbelive in the sun requires stupidity as it is clear to all those who can see that it does in fact exist.

    To disbelive in a creator God only requiares a lack of faith, as it is not clear that such a being exists. The art of good anology is 'like for like', disbelife in God and disbelife in the sun are two diffrant things entirly.
     
    #20 Lee, Jul 7, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2016

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