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Sikhi's Root in the Eternal Shabad-Guru

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by lotus lion, Jan 30, 2009.

  1. lotus lion

    lotus lion
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    Hi Naingwin1976,

    Once again, welcome to the forum. I sincerely hope that you enjoy your stay and that our interactions lead to both parties forming correct view. I also hope that we both do our upmost to remain polite, respectful but honest whilst cultivating a cordial relationship.

    To re-iterate, the objective of these posts is to show that Sikhi is its own Dharma which has not derived its teachings from another but is linked to the Eternal Shabad, and it will be done by going through a set of arguments.

    If the opportunity ever arises I would sincerely wish to set up a thread which discuss the similarities and differences between the two Dharmas, but the first objective is paramount.

    I would like to say from the outset I am not the most PC of people at the best of times, but when it comes to writing, I do my best to ensure that it will get through the legal department so to speak. I do call a spade a spade but please do not take offense and try to see the message that my words are conveying. Likewise, the same applies to me.

    I would also like to add that these posts are a lot longer then normal and may even deviate to address other related issues, but I hope that you, along with others, have the strength to follow through to the end.

    Thanks,

    Lotus
     
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  3. lotus lion

    lotus lion
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    1) The Word Sect

    The word sect is what causes Sikhs a lot of grief, and if I may speak frankly, is an insult to me as an individual and a vast majority of The Sikhs, if not all of us.

    Not only because it is completely incorrect but because it can mislead Brothers and Sisters who are not aware of the sheer fundamentals of their Dharma, causing them to fall into turmoil, confusion and anguish for no reason, and as Sikhs, we will not allow that.

    By definition, a sect is a body that has broken off from a larger group due to a dispute about their religious doctrine.

    Let us take Buddhism as an example.

    Major schools of thought would be Theravada, Zen, and Mahayana.

    Now let us take Islam.

    Major Schools of thought would be Ahmadiyya Shi'a and Sunni

    What can be noted is that they derive their teachings from the their parent religion but had a dispute on some level causing a different school of thought to be set up and as a result have deviated from their orthodox teachings.

    Sikhi has not derived its teachings from Islam, therefore a dispute with respect to this could not have taken place, so no deviation has occoured and as a result it is totally fallacy to say that Sikhi is a sect of another.

    As an analogy, consider If I were to make the statement 'Islam is a sect of Buddhism' pointing out the similarities between Buddhism and Islam to sphere head my arguments', then attempting to say that Islam is infact Buddhism as their teachings have come from The Buddha. One would most possibly laugh.
    But if I were to continue down this avenue with force, I would begin to cause offence and anger.

    If on the other hand, I were to make the statement that 'Islam and Buddhism have not derived their teachings from another, and are simply expressing key principles in different ways', then we have automatically created a platform where there is ample room to discuss similarities and differences without any room for mallace.

    And this is exactly where Sikhi stands. Sikhi is its own Dharma as the Bani is rooted in the Eternal Shabad. The Teachings of the Sikh Dharma are not derived from another but is the re-expression of the Shabad in its original form.

    Any step taken to say that Sikhi is merely a sect is an attempt to cause confusion amongst Sikhs, to reduce its impact on the world and stop Sikhi taking its rightful roots which is totally unacceptable.

    Thanks,

    Lotus
     
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  4. lotus lion

    lotus lion
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    2) Passages in the Guru Granth Sahib

    A Foreword on the Guru Granth Sahib:

    "Something that must be noted is the uniqueness of the Guru Granth Sahib.

    It is the only 'Scripture' in the world that is still in its original unaltered form for over 500 years and is made up of the writings of the very Gurus and is completely authenticated by the Gurus. No other religion can make this claim.

    It holds a special status in the heart of The Sikhs as it is more the scripture, but considered the embodiment of the teachings of the Gurus, representing the Shabad-Guru in the written form and is as a result is revered with that same level of respect.

    In doing so, we are being instructed to form a direct connection with The Higher conciousness taking direct control of our destiny and to not rely on a Middleman, Be it the Guru or a Saint, to apparently bail us out when our actions have been less then correct."

    Each and every page is equal to another so Sikhs do not differentiate between Authors and as a result I will freely pick passages from the entire Guru Granth Sahib to support my arguements.

    Sidhs have already asked this question to Guru Nanak

    Guru Nanak spoke to many people of many Dharmas in his travels along with the Hindus and the Muslims. One set was the Sidhs. The conversation that Guru Nanak had with them has been documented in the Sidh-Gohst. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ang 938-946 incase anyone is interested.

    Several questions were put to Guru Nanak and to each an answer was provided.
    For the sake of this discussion, I have selected questions that I feel are appropriate.

    "Who is your guru?"
    -Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ang 942

    To which Guru Nanak replied:

    "Nānak jug jug gur gopālā.
    O Nanak, throughout the ages, the Lord of the World is my Guru."
    -Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ang 943

    As well as:

    "Whose disciple are you?"
    -Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ang 942

    To which Guru Nanak Replied:

    "The Shabad is the Guru, upon whom I lovingly focus my consciousness; I am the chaylaa, the disciple."
    -Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ang 943

    Note the answers when openly asked: Who's Disciple are you: the Shabad, an Islamic Name for God was not chosen and this is a fundamental question especially since there are only 99 Names of God according to Islam and had Guru Nanak wanted to illustrate the point clearly this would have been the perfect opportunity and corrected the Sidhs.

    I am Not Hindu, nor am I Muslim

    Bhairao, Fifth Mehl:

    I do not keep fasts, nor do I observe the month of Ramadaan.
    I serve only the One, who will protect me in the end. ||1||
    ...
    I do not make pilgrimages to Mecca, nor do I worship at Hindu sacred shrines.
    I serve the One Lord, and not any other. ||2||
    I do not perform Hindu worship services, nor do I offer the Muslim prayers.
    I have taken the One Formless Lord into my heart; I humbly worship Him there. ||3||
    I am not a Hindu, nor am I a Muslim.

    Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ang 1136

    The above passage is indeed an unparrelled one in all Dharmas.

    Jews could argue that Christians are a sect of their Dharma, Which gave birth to a sect called Islam, but there is nothing in the Torah the Bible or the Quran that can categorically refute this claims in the same way that the passage above does.

    The Sikh Dharma has an unparrelled passage that deals with this question and unequivocally and unapologetically states in no uncertain terms, without room for any other interpretation that the Sikhs of the Guru are not Muslim,or Hindu for that matter, and consequently the teachings cannot be branched off of them either.

    There are also more passages, such as Dhoor-Ke-Bani (Bani from afar) Ik-Ongkar (One God) and Ajap-jaap (The unchanted Chant) but i fear that i would not be able to discuss them without running into several pages and wish to respond within a timely manner, but hopefully the opportunity will come.

    Thanks,

    Lotus
     
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  5. lotus lion

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    3) Difference in Philosophy

    Where Sikhi and Islam differ quite fundamentally is on the basic kernels of philosophy.

    For Me, The core Philosophy of Sikhi can be described by the following points:

    1) There is 1 God for all known by many names worshipped in many ways.

    2) Upon a physical death the Soul is reincarnated into another life form.

    3) The differences in people's lives, be they rich or poor, Black or White, Fully abled Disabled and so forth is not by random chance, but by Karma which we are all heirs of and are effected by the way that we live.

    Islam on the other hand can be described by the following:

    1) God Has a set number of Names and there is a prescribed way of connecting with it via the prostration alone. Any other way is incorrect.

    2) 'Good' Muslims are destined for an eternal heavenly afterlife based on the way that an individual has lived one life here on Earth, whilst Non-Muslims irrespective of their conduct, even if it was better then the good Muslim, is automatically destined for an eternal fiery Hell.

    3) As far as I am aware, Islam does not explain why there is such a wide variety in the conditions in people's lives. I.e. No Karma (on a Side note I would like to find out what Islam says about this.)

    If the pure fundamentals are this far apart, then it can quite clearly be seen that Sikhi and Islam are their own Dharmas.

    Thanks,

    Lotus
     
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  6. lotus lion

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    4) History

    This I feel is not a point that should be skimmed over, but at the same time not something that we should dwell over too much either as it could be considered a source of friction for both parties involved.

    Guru Arjan Dev Killed by Muslims on Hot Coals
    Guru Tegh Bahadur was Killed by Muslims by Beheading
    Guru Gobind Singh's children were bricked alive by Muslims

    Bhia Taru Singh's Cranium was removed after he refused to remove his Kesh
    Bhia Mani Singh was cut to pieces
    Bhia Sati Das was sawn in half

    Bandha Singh Bahadur was forced to eat the flesh of his own child upon capture
    Baba Deep Singh defended the sanctity of the Harminder Sahib
    Bhai Massa Rangar defended the dignity of the of the Harminder Sahib

    Countless Genocides of The Sikhs at the hands of Muslims/Islam.

    More recent events include the creation of Pakistan from the land of the Gurus and the grooming of Sikh Women in the UK.

    Perhaps the last comments were a little under the belt, but I feel that they have to brought to the forefront whenever this topic is discussed.

    If we are considered a sect, then the treatment we are met with could hardly be deemed respectful and it is because of the actions of Muslims that we have a less then cordial relations.

    Thanks,

    Lotus
     
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  7. lotus lion

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    5) Travels

    A point that is regularly brought up by Muslims is that Guru Nanak travelled to Mecca and apparently performed Hajj. This is a fallacy of the highest order and I will do my best to remove this doubt.

    The travel to the Middle East was but one of the four major journey travels that Guru Nanak performed to spread the teachings of The Eternal Shabad. These included North into Tibet, East towards the Bengals and South to the Ends of India.

    The travels of Guru Nanak have simply been over-milked by Muslims for their own gains as a method to convert Sikhs who are unaware of their Dharma.

    Brother, please note that it is not my objective to insult you, and to pause and reflect on the following sentences.

    It is well known that Guru Nanak Slept with his feet towards Mecca. When the Muslims asked him to move his feet his response was to move them where does God not exist. Upon doing so, the image of Mecca was always there.

    If I was meant to go on Hajj but instead pointed my feet towards it, would you still proudly proclaim that I have renounced Sikhi and adopted Islam??

    Naturally it would be deemed an insult, but Muslims regularly use this as an illustration to 'trick' (apologies, not other word came to mind) Sikhs ignorant of their Dharma that Sikhi is apparently a sect of Islam.

    Thanks,

    Lotus
     
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  8. lotus lion

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    6) Conclusion

    As a result of the above arguments', it has been shown that Sikhi not derived its teachings off another, that there are passages which categorically support this, the sheer kernels of philosophy are on opposite ends of the spectrum, the historic interactions have been less then respectful, and the travels of Guru Nanak have been over exggerated. It can therfore clearly be seen that Sikhi is linked to the Eternal Shabad.

    My best regards,

    Lotus Lion
     
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  9. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Lotus_Lion ji

    This is a great idea precisely because you have framed the discussion in terms of similarities and differences -- and by doing that the discussion has a structure. I myself look forward to the discussion and will follow through.

    Antonia
     
  10. naingwin1976

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    Dear lotus lion Ji,

    I'm a very strong muslim myself but I ready to agreed that some of peoples are taking advantages of some event. one things i'm not sure it when GURU started preaching it, after that event or before. i'll find out the date and let you know.

    any how it's good to discuss with you coz seem you learn a lot. we could gain and share our knowledge each other.

    naingwin1976

     
  11. naingwin1976

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    Dear lotus lion,

    this is my first post in this topic. Can i discuss by proving that

    It is the only 'Scripture' in the world that is still in its original unaltered form for over 500 years and is made up of the writings of the very Gurus and is completely authenticated by the Gurus. No other religion can make this claim.

    I didn't i greed that at all. Especially high light one. coz over 1450 years passed already Koran is unique and unaltered since it's written and itself already claimed and challenge nobody can able to alter or writ similar one. Are you agreed that?
    I got evidence.

    thank
    naingwin1976
     
  12. naingwin1976

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    Dear Lotus lion Ji,
    i will discuss from here and not to offends other i'll use Allah as lord of universes which is revealed in Surah Fahtihah the opening in first chapter of first page of Koran. ,

    3) Difference in Philosophy

    Where Sikhi and Islam differ quite fundamentally is on the basic kernels of philosophy.

    For Me, The core Philosophy of Sikhi can be described by the following points:
    Source:: Sikhism Philosophy Network http://www.sikhism.us/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/23945-sikhis-root-in-eternal-shabad-guru.html#post93133

    1) There is 1 God for all known by many names worshipped in many ways.

    In Islam only one Lord of universes and he had a lot of name. 99 names are reveal in Koran to call him. but there are a lot names that Human can't understand like universes. Lord asked human to worship in different way to differentiate follower different prophets( how were chosen to came upon earth by will of lord of universes to preach, to teach ways of life,to give good news and to warn. Rules and laws are also different from each other to ease burden of humans who can do only a little time by time. That already teach in Koran 1500 years ago. There are surprises about this and due to it's only ages one.
    Lord of universes is always updated the Rules and Laws for humans by sending prophets times to times, epochs to epochs, nations to nations even to very remote African jungles peoples until last times to close all teaching complete. And then in Koran Lord of universes warn to humans that in the days of judgment he'll not accepted any complaint from humans that no prophets were send to them for teaching,warning and giving news.
    ****All prophets who came upon earth gave news of last and seal of prophets and even gave his name in different languages.**** I'll discuss you in other posts.


    2) Upon a physical death the Soul is reincarnated into another life form.

    This one is view of Hindus and Buddhist, earlier times of their religious teaching and still disputes about who hold this views first mostly in south east asian Buddhist country.

    Theoretically and philosophically more over mathematically we can prove wrong.
    I can explain in this way, in universe all religions excepted Islam hold the view of single universe( never mentioned in other religious about a lot universes in spaces (Islam mentions 10800 universes in which other kinds of creature live)
    let say in one universe including unseen live forms live together how they incarnated to each other. Mathematically you can calculated by yourself.
    In known worlds, today in livestock farms
    1. millions of chickens/cows/pigs/fish ect.. are breeding and killings.
    2. millions of insets like bugs/ants/mosquitoes/fly/flees/ ect,.. are born and dead.
    3. millions of peoples are born and dead ( even in china a lone populations 100times higher then 100 years ago)
    4. as per Darwin theories (even i didn't accepted this can calculated a few ) known worlds starting point there only a few species exited than today. How came a lot of species (like fishes, mammals,insects, humans) are formed by incarnation.
    This will explain you a few points.

    3) The differences in people's lives, be they rich or poor, Black or White, Fully abled Disabled and so forth is not by random chance, but by Karma which we are all heirs of and are effected by the way that we live.

    In Islam it's already explained well then incarnation theories in other religions(which is only philosophy can't apply

    In live philosophy work only a few, because of we can live only one for sure if one is enough.
    are you agree that?

    General ways your explanations seen goods but forget a lots of point to consider.
    1. There is always a starting point to make things happen. When all life starts who choose Karmas ? from where? who set the rules?

    let me explain a few,

    A tiger eat a deer it's not a sin because Lord of universes created the tiger with teeth that only can chew meats if we have to blame tiger for eating meats first we have to blames Lord of universes who created tiger with that teeth.
    But Lord of universes never give winds because that is dengerous for other live and also give deer to more higher speed of running than tiger, also teach tiger to how to hunt. There is struggle of life start.
    Don't you see some disable persons are more nice than able persons. poor persons pray more than rich persons. why ?they knew what is life by that way.
    learn from history,for example Lord of universes gave to us is that Lord of universes make Hitler of German to poor at start of life but later with his effort to struggle in life Lord of universes gave what he already promise ( that is what you will try in this life i'll give you all that in this life). What happend later? Killed a lot of peoples.
    Are all peoples are sinner as per Karma? So there will be no more innocent in this worlds. So we can kill a peoples by referring Karma? no way. especially in court of intelligence it's not valid at all.
    So why holding unprovable philosophy as a good point to explaint? it's not make me sense at all.


    Islam on the other hand can be described by the following:

    1) God Has a set number of Names and there is a prescribed way of connecting with it via the prostration alone. Any other way is incorrect.

    Already explained see above

    More point is "how we can choose who is really a prophet ?"
    It's easy what evidence he brings we can judge a people by only seeing.
    Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) of Islam shown Koran as evidence of prophet.
    We can discuss how Koran reveal truth( by
    Sciencetifically )

    2) 'Good' Muslims are destined for an eternal heavenly afterlife based on the way that an individual has lived one life here on Earth, whilst Non-Muslims irrespective of their conduct, even if it was better then the good Muslim, is automatically destined for an eternal fiery Hell.
    Because can you bear what a good muslim bear in this worlds?
    First accepted Lord of universes without seeing and all revealation and his prophet. Submission to Lord of universes without denial even againt own wills and free choice.
    Afew undesireable things againts own wills (festings,prayer by times,annual alms for poor, using money to sacrified animal (to get only for acknowlegdement of Lord of universes but all meats go to poor).
    Non-muslim problams is that
    1. denial of last massages
    2. Comparing Great Of Great Lord of universes with stoney images,picture, idols,humans and animal gods. Even a great empire can't stand if somebody
    comapre him with a loser.
    What if somebody compared creator universes and all things with his own creature?

    3.Donating more than muslim mean to written on wall and walking infront of peoples. you can see in news. alms for poor who give? when muslims gave anyone know? Bible for foods, robs for foods.muslim intended only for Lord of the universes. And Lord of the universes warned to humans of this kinds that "you intended all to things to your idols and gods you have to ask what you want from them"
    Fair enough right?
    Give to one and want from other, who teach that anyway it's trying to taking all free by philosophy, that will not work before Lord of the universes. Lord of the universes is not fool.


    3) As far as I am aware, Islam does not explain why there is such a wide variety in the conditions in people's lives. I.e. No Karma (on a Side note I would like to find out what Islam says about this.)

    I explained already referred that if need more, i can give you more.
    Like racing track you can see some one is before you, someone is behind you but all are same in measurement. look a round you some time. rich or poor, disable or able , wise or unwise is no problam. problams is what you choose the ways.


    If the pure fundamentals are this far apart, then it can quite clearly be seen that Sikhi and Islam are their own Dharmas.

    May be but about Lord of the universes, Sikh and Islam are quite clear same only practices are different i don't know why?
    For examples if you write one of your Lord names among names , i can prove that is already in Islam. Coincidence or consequence not sure? Now i'm reading my G-father formar religious books(my Gfather was a sikh name Gupta Sign)

    Bye for now brother, i'll post later time
    :advocate:

    naingwin1976
     
  13. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Moderator question...

    The thread began as an analysis of Sikhism (primary focus) with the idea of taking a look at how concepts of Sikhism are distinct and different from other paths. The thread is now looking a bit like a comparative religion thread. Any thoughts from thread posters about moving it to Interfaith Dialogs. I don't want to do this until you give some feedback, especially lotus_lion ji who started the thread. My impression was that lotus_lion ji started the thread in order to move out of an interfaith discussion. But now we are back to comparative religion. Let me know. Thanks
     
  14. naingwin1976

    naingwin1976
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    Dear
    It's ok for me, if lotus- lion ji is ok

     
  15. Tejwant Singh

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    Aad is right about this thread starting as Sikhi and its unique concepts to whose shirt is starched more.

    Naigwin what Lotus Lion meant by the above is that we know who wrote the Gurbani in Guru Granth Sahib and when, and the way it is complied in a scientific method that it can not be altered or nothing can be inserted inbetween.

    On the other hand as far Koran is concerned, it was not written by Mohammed because he was an illitrate and it was written many years after his death. The same goes for the New Testament which was written many years after Jesus'death.

    Hence, you may be thinking of the proof that it has not been altered after it was put together but who put it together was NOT Mohammed so lots of things can be considered as hearsays as in the NT.

    Tejwant Singh
     
  16. lotus lion

    lotus lion
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    Hi naingwin1976,

    The objective of this thread was to show that Sikhi has not derived its teachings from another but is linked to the Eternal Shabad.

    In its essence, Sikhi is the re-expression of the timeless Shabad in its original form and this was shown through a set of arguements.

    To the best of my knowledge, and i have had to read it a few times to be try and make sense of it to be perfectly honest, what you are trying to say is:

    1) You believe that the Quran is the actual unaltered word of God
    2) You do not agree with Karma
    3) Nor in Reincarnation
    4) You believe that the final Prophet was Mohammed.
    5) You believe that All the Names of God have an Islamic bearing.

    I think that i have summerised up what you are trying to say, please do correct me if i am wrong or have missed anything out.

    If you feel that the above list is correct, perhaps we can start from point 1, Proving that the Qu'ran is the actual unaltered word of God, and then we take things from there.

    Hoping to hear from you soon,

    Lotus Lion
     
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  17. lotus lion

    lotus lion
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    Hi naingwin1976,

    I think it is fair to say that i have given you sufficient time.

    Hopefully you are working on an answer of some sort?
    Even if it is not complete, that is fine, just let me know that you are working on one and how much time you require. I am pretty chilled about these things.

    Once you have provided your proof to show that the Quran is the complete actual unaltered word of God, we can begin dialog on this issue, as quite naturally i beg to differ.

    Hoping to hear from you soon,

    Lotus Lion
     

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