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Sikhi(sm) - A Presentation by Tejwant Singh Malik 2015-06-20

To Protect and Serve

  1. Admin Singh

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    Our esteemed patron & fellow SPNer, S. @Tejwant Singh Ji Malik, was recently invited to be a part of the third annual Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department and Southern Nevada Counter Terrorism Center religious and cultural awareness seminar. This seminar was designed to give law enforcement and first responders across the valley insight into the various religions comprising our community, and how they can better interact with members of these religions and cultures. This initiative must be replicated, throughout the USA and even worldwide, to spread awareness about the various religious and cultural backgrounds.

    Screen Shot 2015-06-20 at 1.13.14 PM.png



    The idea behind the annual seminar is that organizers could assist the law enforcement department and first responders in better understanding the history, key points, holiday ritual, and cultural nuances of the various religions, but also a chance to get a glimpse beyond the differences to understand the similarities that connect us all.

    This seminar was held at the LVMPD Headquarters building on Tuesday, June 16th, 2015. The presenters had the following Talking Points to focus on while making the presentation...
    • Main Beliefs or Tenants of your religion;
    • Brief history of the religion;
    • Religious or Cultural customs law enforcement should be aware of (shoes off, contact with women etc);
    • How many members of your religion in the LV valley;
    • How many places of worship in valley and locations;
    • What their view of law enforcement is in Las Vegas;
    • Their views on reporting suspicious activity;
    • How law enforcement can help your community;
    • What can be done to further strengthen bond, relations, etc.;
    This presentation is in a PowerPoint format and you can download it at the following link.

    Sikhi(sm) - A Presentation by Tejwant Singh Malik - To Protect and Serve

    Read more about this resource...
     
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  3. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    excellent presentation Tejwantji, by the end I felt proud to be a Sikh
     
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  4. Original

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    Tejwant Singh Ji

    Excellent service all around - thoroughly enjoyed. The photographs appeal to me a lot as they have a special place in my heart. My father served for 18 years and seeing these photos, particularly the "Air Force Wings" brought back proud moments. He died in 1968 when I was just 10 and seeing these photos is like walking down memory lane - thank you.

    Your Presentation

    I must admit I'm not altogether up-to-date with sectarian Sikhism, simply because I'm a traditionalist and been raised to believe and never question any of the Sikh scriptures - head-down before Guru's writings attitude I guess. I have some questions regarding your presentation and perhaps you can enlighten me. Also, for my research [Sikh Studies] I will be much obliged if you could cite and provide authoritative references to support your findings:

    1. Pages of SGGSJ - is it 1430 or 1429 ? Pls provide source if 1429.
    2. Tolerance not a virtue within Sikhism.
    3. Reincarnation a non-belief within Sikhism.
    I hope to look at some of the issues surrounding Sikhism so that consistent, accurate and above all factual information is recorded to reflect the true message of the house of Nanak. Your contribution is beyond measure and it is Sikh's like yourself who further the word of our SGGSJ.

    Many thanks and much obliged.

    Respectfully yours
    Sevadaar
     
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  5. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Original ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    Firstly, I want to thank you for taking keen interest in this as you have often done in many threads which is a commendable trait to have. Only by interacting with each other we can understand and then practice the beautiful message of Gurbani.

    I chose "Air Force Wings" because Hardit Singh Malik was my Granddad, Pita Ji's cousin and he was the only reference I could find as the only Sikh pilot during World War II. Most of my family was also in the armed forces. My cousin was a Squadron Leader stationed at Amritsar in June 1984. He resigned in protest but it took him many years to clear his name.

    The more details of this PowerPoint are in the video that my son Trimaan recorded on multiple iphones and it will be posted here in a couple of days with my own elaboration of it.

    To be honest I have no idea what you mean by 'sectarian Sikhism'. I do not believe in any sects in Sikhi either. Sikhi stands alone.

    A Sikh is only traditionalist about his/her baana only.However,in the thought process a Sikh is a secularist to the core not sectarian. The name Sikh defines that secularism. Four doors at Harmander Sahib, Langar, Gurbani in the SGGS, not only by our visionary Gurus but also by Hindu and Muslims and many more things are the proofs of that. A Sikh is not a traditionalist because this is the only way of life that evolves with time unlike in other religions.

    For me and to many others too, the beautiful Sikhi tapestry is in 1429 pages, hence interwoven. Page 1430 is an ugly knot on this gorgeous tapestry and no one knows the author of this knot unlike the beautiful interwoven design in 1429 previous pages.

    That is not what I said. This is your thought, not mine and this is just one-half of it. If I am not mistaken, your intention was to ask me why Sikhi believes in acceptance rather than "Tolerance not a virtue within Sikhism" as described in slides #'s 8&9 of the presentation.

    My emphasis is on acceptance not on tolerance.

    I will use both historical examples and also some from Gurbani.

    1. Historical examples.

    a. Four doors of Harmander Sahib proves that we accept everyone in our Sanctum Sanctorum irrespective of one's hue, creed and faith. A non-Muslim can not go to Hajj. A non-Catholic can not receive a communion are just two examples out of many where the acceptance of all is absent, unlike in Sikhi.

    b. SGGS contains hymns of 6 Sikh Gurus and 30 other composers which include Hindus and Muslims as mentioned in slide# 7.

    c. The concept of Langar- breaking bread with anyone and everyone- was started to demonstrate in tangible terms the acceptance of all humanity unlike those times then when India was divided into castes and class system and tolerance was not even in the equation of people's psyche.

    d. Any one can read, study SGGS and become 'a scholar' of Sikhi unlike in other religions. The first translators of SGGS were Christian Missionaries who had Sikhs as their disciples which is quite a unique occurrence from a theological point of view.

    The evolution of one's thought process in Sikhi as mentioned above has also made some of us question the biblical slant and thus the misleading English translations of SGGS, which can be a point of discussion in another thread.

    Acceptance in the SGGS.

    a. Gurbani is filled with Shabads that show us that, but before we go there, what is mentioned in b. above is the first and foremost proof of acceptance in SGGS.

    The omnipresence of Ik Ong Kaar is demonstrated in almost all the 1429 pages of SGGS which shows the acceptance of ALL sans bias. I will post some verses just for reference. The literal translation is by Sant Singh Khalsa, a Caucasian convert.

    b. The following Rahao is on page 485 and ironically it is written by Bhagat Nam Dev who was a low caste Hindu from a calico printer family in Maharashtra.

    ਸਭੁ
    ਗੋਬਿੰਦੁ ਹੈ ਸਭੁ ਗੋਬਿੰਦੁ ਹੈ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਬਿਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਕੋਈ
    Sabẖ gobinḏ hai sabẖ gobinḏ hai gobinḏ bin nahī ko▫ī.
    God is everything, God is everything. Without God, there is nothing at all.

    ਸੂਤੁ ਏਕੁ ਮਣਿ ਸਤ ਸਹੰਸ ਜੈਸੇ ਓਤਿ ਪੋਤਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸੋਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ
    Sūṯ ek maṇ saṯ sahaʼns jaise oṯ poṯ parabẖ so▫ī. ||1|| rahā▫o.
    As one thread holds hundreds and thousands of beads, He is woven into His creation. ||1||Pause|| Page

    The following verse is from our 9th Guru who gave his life to demonstrate the acceptance of Hindus as Hindus, in this case, Kashmiri Pundits..

    Page 1427
    ਸਲੋਕ ਮਹਲਾ
    Salok mėhlā 9.
    Shalok, Ninth Mehl:

    ਘਟ ਘਟ ਮੈ ਹਰਿ ਜੂ ਬਸੈ ਸੰਤਨ ਕਹਿਓ ਪੁਕਾਰਿ
    Gẖat gẖat mai har jū basai sanṯan kahi▫o pukār.
    The Dear Lord abides in each and every heart; the Saints proclaim this as true.

    ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਤਿਹ ਭਜੁ ਮਨਾ ਭਉ ਨਿਧਿ ਉਤਰਹਿ ਪਾਰਿ ॥੧੨॥
    Kaho Nānak ṯih bẖaj manā bẖa▫o niḏẖ uṯrėh pār. ||12||
    Says Nanak, meditate and vibrate upon Him, and you shall cross over the terrifying world-ocean. ||12||

    Page 1381. This Salok is from the Sheikh Farid, a Muslim.

    ਮਹਲਾ
    Mėhlā 5.
    Fifth Mehl:

    ਫਰੀਦਾ ਖਾਲਕੁ ਖਲਕ ਮਹਿ ਖਲਕ ਵਸੈ ਰਬ ਮਾਹਿ
    Farīḏā kẖālak kẖalak mėh kẖalak vasai rab māhi.
    Fareed, the Creator is in the Creation, and the Creation abides in God.

    ਮੰਦਾ ਕਿਸ ਨੋ ਆਖੀਐ ਜਾਂ ਤਿਸੁ ਬਿਨੁ ਕੋਈ ਨਾਹਿ ॥੭੫॥
    Manḏā kis no ākẖī▫ai jāʼn ṯis bin ko▫ī nāhi. ||75||
    Whom can we call bad? There is none without Him. ||75

    Above are just a few examples of many many verses in SGGS which teaches us the acceptance of all. There are in-numerous examples like that in the SGGS, our only Guru.

    Let's do this the other way around. Please post the Shabad/s from the SGGS which show your belief in reincarnation. It would be easier for us to interact about the Shabad/s then. I would like to point out one thing though. Acknowledgment of a belief by our Gurus in SGGS does not in anyway means acceptance of the belief mentioned.

    I have no idea what you mean by "consistent, accurate and above all factual information". As you very well know that Gurbani is written in poetry. And as I mentioned in slide # 6:

    Music has a powerful universal message.
    It crosses all borders and cultures.
    It makes one dance from the within.
    It also makes a common person sing along and memorise the message of goodness.

    Poetry is like a prism with multiple angles. Let's take Gurbani as the example. As we evolve with time, our understanding of Gurbani also evolves with it. We end of seeing the same Shabad from multiple angles rather that just a few as we did in the beginning.For me this is the true meaning of Nitnem and doing Sehaj Paath repeatedly. Thus, the interpretation becomes subjective, with the Gurmat principles as the centre for us all

    Having said that, I agree with you that we must have an easily understandable Gurbani with the universal consensus sans any biblical slant that we can interpret depending on our own Gurmat journey which I have been advocating for years in this wonderful forum.

    Will wait for the Shabads about reincarnation from you.

    Thanks once again for taking interest in this.

    Regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
  6. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    Originalji, this makes little sense, do you mean secular?

    ahh, its not the scriptures, more the translations and interpretations.

    having said that, I think we all started off like that, seeing scripture as absolute and literal, an order, which would make goddy happy, and bless us with bigger cars. I do believe there is a renaissance happening within Sikhism, more people are questioning facets that appear to have been part of Sikhism, that on closer look are merely the agenda of those that would destroy us.

    This is also a growing concept, shared by many, the respected writer Baldev Singh wrote at length and made for a good argument, I will see if I can find a link and post it.
     
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  7. Original

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    Tejwant Ji - thank you for the prompt response - much appreciated !

    The rationale behind the questions is to know whether the information provided in your presentation is "consistent" with that of the authoritative body of Sikhism, that is, SGPC and Sikh Theology, or is it your own version ? It is because I don't know that is why I am asking.

    It is in the interest of the house of Nanak that accurate information is found through out the world regardless of what one's "personal" take on the matter may be. Of course, many a time I think of "reformation" of Sikhi in line with evolution, but in as much that a desire, I am equally reminded to preserve its original "thought" process together with social and cultural variations of the Banikars; so as to do justice in its entirety.

    What brought me to SPN was me surfing for philosophical literature in relation to research based work and upon discovering a community of like-minded individuals rest is history. Like you, I too feel that Sikhi need to be "properly" representative in both ideology and practice. To do that, academic research is a must. I conceive it to be my duty to watch and study the time in which I live and, as far as in me lies, the ability, initiative and the humble mite, I must exert nonetheless, in the preservation and furtherance of our social heritage, the Gur Bani. In view of that I raised the relevant questions. What I'm asking you kindly, is on the one hand, is it your view, if so, fine by me but if otherwise then please provide references. It is in no way an "issue" but clarification.

    I'm deeply indebted to your passionate framework for Sikh faith and respectfully understand. But what must suffice in all honesty is Sikh Panth to work collectively in furthering the word of Guru Ghar consistently.

    Reincarnation for example, I've never, not before coming to SPN known it to be an issue. I'm led to conclude evolution from an ideology perspective is working hard for adaption of similar thesis in light of Western thought and society. The impact of western civilisation upon Sikh thought is significantly apparent by the changing attitudes of modern Sikhs.

    Please be advised that I wish not to enter into any debate or argue a contentious point but simply am interested in your findings.

    Respectfully yours
    Humble Veer
     
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  8. Original

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    Respected gentlemen,

    I copy n paste for your perusal an interesting letter, which I wrote to my daughter in December 2014. This was in response to "Arundhati's" [popular Indian fiction writer amongst the 3rd generation professionals UK] lecture at University College London [UCL]. In short, Arundhati crticised Mahatma Gandhi for condoning rather than condemning caste based society of India. I listened to the lecture and found it unsafe to warrant any crediable admission. The crux of my findings were based on "evaluation and interpretaion of information", which were inconsistent wth conventional rules. Beacuse it wasn't consistent, I refuted. Similarly, Sikh scholars far and wide will attempt to perceive facts and will then go on to communicate those facts by expressing them as opinions in a way, which can and in most cases will really and truly be invalidated. So much so, Sikhi left to individual or personal interpretation ? Yes, that will be the case if an "authortative" statute is not produced and relied upon.

    In view of that, SPN has been a tremendous resource to prompt an academic based research in the distant future if not immediate. It is people like you that will in all eventuallity shape the beautiful, just and the good Sikh, universally.

    The real reason for inviting you to read the letter is to give you an idea of what is expected in relation to interpretaion, evaluation, analysis and expression of Sikh tenets.

    Thank you


    Dear Jasmin

    Thank you for sending me the link to Arundhati's lecture at UCL.

    Personally speaking, it was more of an attack on Gandhi's personal life than the de-merits of the caste system in India; a writer wannabe politician eh? Given that she's a serious candidate within the literary world, it begs the question, "did she employ the appropriate disciplines of the Arts and Sciences in the determination of her critique? "I don't think she did". An objective, unbiased and impartial account of Gandhi from a sociologist’s perspective would've paved the way for analytical criticism and thus be considered sound. But as it stands high and dry, full of facts without a credible narrative it must be treated as propaganda. I'll explain and demystify the crux of my findings later, but first, something befitting, "if the lions had their own story tellers the tale of the hunt wouldn't always glorify the hunter" (African saying).

    For ease of reference and clarity on the subject matter, I've divided the entire text under sub-headings:

    Aim

    The aim is to get you to chew information skilfully using listening and reflecting means. What does it mean to listen? It means acquiring information from the outside world. What does it mean to reflect? It means processing that information to make sense. Moreover, our task as moral scientists is to help people to "give birth" to the correct insight, since real understanding must come from within.

    In the words of Judge Benjamin Cardozo: "Deep below consciousness are other factors, the likes and dislikes, the predilections and the prejudices, the complex of instincts and emotions, habits and convictions which make the individual what an individual really is".

    Sociologist’s perspective

    From a Sociologist's perspective, it's a fundamental assumption that when we are born we are confronted by a social world, which is just as real as other realities. That as a result, shapes (condition) our behaviour. What we are as individuals is decided by the particular society in which we live and by the particular social group to which we belong. This is because the world around us channels our actions, constraining us to act in particular ways. For example, if I decide to leave this room in which I'm presently seated, I can only do so by a limited number of means available to me, that is, the door or the window. I have a strictly limited choice of action, and the extent of the choice is determined for me by the constraints of my physical environment.

    Similarly, social norms of behaviour considered appropriate or inappropriate in a society is determined by its system of belief and values. These beliefs and values impact the behaviour of the individual. If Gandhi’s character and actions were the result of his biological, environmental and cognitive make, to what extent can we hold him responsible for his behaviour ?

    As an individual, Gandhi also had similar constraints, the choices of which were determined by factors outside of his "willful" control. He ought to have been subjected to this line of questioning before any credible conclusions were drawn.

    Historical perspective

    The historian's job is not just to view historical facts as information, which simply has to be assembled to produce an objective account. For this system is inherently flawed because historians selectively choose which "facts of the past" get to become "historical facts" at their fancy or inclination. History is a story of the past and the historians are the storytellers. What information they select and reject forms the very basis of their produce.
    Given that Arundhati the historian had studied the events of the past, she inadvertently gets involved in a personal standpoint from which, the object of her study (Gandhi) cannot be extricated or disentangled. And, since history is the historian’s interpretation of the past, a strong element of the subjectivesness (gut ache) operates at every level. She is driven without choice to turn to the best available explanations in the social and behavioural sciences to arrive at theories about causal mechanisms and human behaviour. Her findings depend ultimately upon factual inquiry and theoretical reasoning.

    To tarnish Gandhi with the political brush of the then Congress Party and say he was that way inclined isn’t sufficient. In the absence of theoretical reasoning and plausible suppositions to support her critique, the required standard hasn't been met.

    Religious perspective

    Throughout history and beyond the dark recesses of humankind's earliest cultures, religion has been a vital and pervasive feature of human life. To understand human history and human life, it is necessary to understand religion. India's caste system is perhaps the world's longest surviving social hierarchy. Caste encompasses a complex social order. It is hereditary in nature and the differences in social status are traditionally justified by the religious doctrine of "karma". This is a belief that one's place in life is determined by one's deeds in previous lifetimes. Liberation from the cycle of life and death and the subsequent salvation of the soul is attained through the performance of one's "obligatory duties" within the caste into which one is born. Working in harmony the caste system ensures the equilibrium and the perpetuation of the Hindu social order.

    The caste system of India is not just the bedrock of society albeit unequal, but the very foundation of Hinduism. The Bhagvad Gita (Lord's Song) dialogue between Lord Krishna and the Warrior Arjun centers on "duty ethics" and reinforces the value and importance of the caste into which Arjun is born. From this perspective, which is outdated in the present age just as slavery is, Gandhi's position no matter how volatile ought to have been subjected to careful criticism. In the absence of such careful criticism, Arundhati hasn't met the conventional standard of a well-founded Critique.

    Background

    At the tail end of my LLB Law degree, I did my dissertation on the Caste System of India; this particular area of my research fell within the ambit of "International Human Rights". Introduction went something like this........

    An extract:

    "In much of Asia and parts of Africa, caste is the basis for the definition and exclusion of distinct population groups by reason of their descent. Over 250 million people worldwide continue to suffer the horrific violations of their natural rights as a result of this primitive concept. This is a system of social stratification where discrimination of all kinds is justified on the basis of caste".

    I, along with other human rights activists voiced our concerns to bring the caste issue within the ambit of Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) so as to engage the international community (UN); more so on my part, to have it ratified as a form of "racial discrimination". Indian Government batted cleverly to keep sympathisers like me at bay. I moved on, as you know with architecting ...charity to achieve the same. However, I'm pleased to learn from Arundhati that the same has now been achieved albeit fragmented.

    Concluding remarks


    In the space of a few thousand years we have transformed the planet and created technological civilizations the likes of which has never been seen. The likes of Gandhi and Arundhati will come and go (dialectical reasoning). Humanity will evolve; other species are shaped by evolution but we map our own and, hence the reason to see both Arundhati and Gandhi through the lenses of reason and not just mere facts.

    As regards her critique of the caste system, I couldn't agree more. The same read within the context of the jurisprudence of law (human rights) she hit home without a hitch, but when weighed under the sociological scanner, she failed miserably. Getting the balance right between making a memorable impact while retaining the dignified stance in a public arena can be a formidable task. She clearly didn't strike the right balance no matter how factual her case. Attack on Gandhi's character and action was unwarranted because it lacked correct interpretation. Conversely, critical analysis empowers us to better understand our everyday life scenarios, but not to the extent that we blow out the candle, which helped us, find electricity in the first place.

    Although, her findings are probably correct on account of the source materials used, the interpretation and the motive with which she advanced her argument isn't watertight to warrant any credible admission. Her omission, particularly of evolutionary and sociological evidence interpreted in a historical context makes her case very weak; especially, within the meaning of the scientific method. That is to say, she fell prey to confirmation bias rather than an objective account of "why the caste is and how Gandhi was a mere product?" Confirmation bias is the mind's tendency to pick and choose information to support the case at hand, while ignoring a wealth of evidence to the contrary. Classic example is the criticism of Gandhi for defending the caste system.

    Opinion

    In my humble opinion, what she failed to home in on was that Gandhi couldn't even if he wanted to, condemn the caste system due to its evolutionary conditioning on the human genome. In other words, culturally, genetically and environmentally Gandhi was the product of the conditions prevalent at that particular period in time. Even to his better judgment, shunning the caste system to align his moral compass on the day would've conflicted with his mission to free India from British Raj. Given the circumstances and the task at hand it is reasonable to infer from the two evils that prioritising political initiatives over social stratification was a necessity no matter how crude his stance. An important observation on her part would've been, to recognise the caste system from a "religious perspective" and not just social.
    The central theme of Bhagvad Gita (Holy book of the Hindus) is "caste" - Lord Krishna enlightens warrior Arjun on the merits of one's duty over one's inclinations and encourages him to fight the battle of righteousness
    (Dharma). How could Gandhi have denounced Hinduism in this critical hour when his personal dilemma was the same as Arjun - Dharam (free India)? What she ought to have done, is gone beyond the scene to unearth the mechanisms inherent in Gandhi's society to explain his behaviour relative to that of the Hindu society as a whole. Metaphorically speaking, the knife is a useful tool with many functions; it can also be abused. Does that mean it shouldn't have gone past the conceptual stage of invention ? The pursuit of human life, as in Gandhi's case, albeit flawed by selfish genes (Hindu Brahmin, priests and advisers to the ruling dynasty) cannot be held accountable for the entire social inequalities within the Indian system, can it ? Just as the untouchables are conditioned over time to accept their inferior status so were the ruling castes conditioned to accept theirs as part of the natural order of things ordained by God. Fulfilling one’s duty as codified by Hindu Dharma is seen as an overriding objective. And, since duty ethics are embroiled within the dictates of Hindu faith, reason and knowledge cannot be employed to determine the right and wrong of Gandhi’s actions.

    Recommendations

    Arundhati should stick to fiction and let the Dalit (untouchables) representatives take care of the judicial and the social stratification of the Indian system. By all means she could sway public opinion to her best endeavours.

    Personal statement

    When you told me that Amber, Kabir and Sonia are there as well, I was immediately drawn to my writing pad. And, since the minds of the young are very impressionable and fertile, something must be said in a constructive prose so as to provide a platform from which they can best draw their own conclusions. Hope they'll be able digest - kept it pretty informal.

    For you my dearest, I’ll leave you with, “I have striven not to laugh at human actions, not to weep at them, not to hate them, but to understand them” - B Spinoza

    Thank you for taking the time to read.

    Your dearest
    Father
     
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  9. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Original Ji,

    Guru fateh.

    I am a bit puzzled with your above response and seek your help in clarifications. I responded to the best of my ability the way I understand Gurbani and Sikh history.

    If you happen to disagree with that, please show me with your Sikhi wisdom that I know you have a lot of so we can learn from each other.

    Regarding reincarnation, I requested you to please post the Shabads that say reincarnation is part of Sikhi so we can see how we understand them through our interaction.

    I have no idea what the western thought and the western civilisation have anything to do with this concept and hence the change in attitudes. Gurbani is very clear about reincarnation for me.

    I will wait for your specific queries regarding my original response and also the Shabads about reincarnation that you believe show what you believe in and contradict my views about it..

    Sikhi is based on debates and discussion as long as we do not sling mud at each other but learn through this process in order to become better Sikhs.

    Thanks & regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
  10. Original

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    Tejwant Singh Ji

    Thank you for your efforts. What I was looking for, in an academic sense, was references to support your claims [No tolerance, no reincarnation] so that I am better positioned to reflect.

    The general rule of "burden of proof" is that he who proposes proves. This principle is applied in a variety of settings. For example, courtrooms, in science and discovery and in philosophical debates and discussions. Your good self making those statements [above] is taken as expressing a point of view on a particular subject [Sikh tenets] and supporting it with evidence. This is often the aim of academic writing. Debates in academic writings are usually complex and take time to develop.

    Sikh scholars have an academic burden to discharge in light of the scientific method and conventional mode of expressions. As a Sikh, I feel a lot needs to be done in line with evolutionary design and societal development. The way to bring about desired changes is to follow correct procedures. As much as I would like to endorse your statement "no reincarnation" in light of 21st century science, I cannot without profound evidence.

    Much of what we have is in fact an "ideology", which Baba Nanak "modified" to give practical effect, away from mythological and superstitious of then Indian society. The idea of reincarnation [Nanak's era] was pivotal in framing and composing Bani. Why ? Because it was part of the then ideological thought process through which contemporary thought developed. Gurbani uses terms such as, janam, joon, ajooni, murh murh avna, etc. The meaning and effect of such vocabulary uses was to turn around humankind from "manmukh to gurmukh". The essence of human life as opposed to mere animal was to navigate the soul towards madhao [God] away from maya [this world]. And, how the separated soul is to reunite from whence she came.

    I'll provide some citations from SGGSJ to illustrate my point, but perhaps when both time and space are in abundance, I'll make conscious effort to do an academic write up.

    Page 19 - avan jana na chakai mar janama hoi khuhar
    124 - na vastu loi na chukay fera
    306 - mur mur kamda hun
    537 - ghuman gherian
    524 - avan jana reha janam na teha sar
    176 - kei janam bei keet
    694 - bohat janam bishra
    823 - janam ki mal ghai
    584 - phir avan jana na huya

    The above is far from an exhaustive a list, but insofar, a reflection of the Banikars of SGGSJ, it is very much evident of the thought of the day in which they lived.

    Thank you for sharing your thoughts, always a pleasure and a step in the right direction in furthering Sikhi.

    Respectfully yours
    Veer
     
  11. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Original ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    First of all I want to thank you for the lovely letter to your daughter Jasmine. You are one blessed dad to have a wonderful daughter like that.

    Pardon my ignorance, but I fail to understand the connection of that letter, which I thoroughly enjoyed and what we are discussing here between what Arundhati says about Gandhi and what we are discussing here from the thought process of the House of Nanak as you beautiful put it. Perhaps I am too uneducated to connect the link for which I would need your guidance. I would like to read Arundati's take to further comment on it.

    About Gandhi's shenanigans with Master Tara Singh during the partition is a different thread because my Granddad was involved in it. Let's focus on our things at hand for the time being.

    I have my take from the historical and the theological -Gurbani- point of view about acceptance. If you find different things in the SGGS, then please post them with your own take..

    Original ji,

    If our Gurus wanted to give the interpretation of the beautiful poetic Gurbani on a platter to us, then we would not have anything to discuss today. Why in your view Guru Gobind Singh, who created the Khalsa Panth, lowered himself to our level to elevate us by taking khandei de pahul from panj Piaras, sacrificed his own dad for the sake of the acceptance of the people whatever they believed in, sacrificed his own 4 sons, added his Dad's poetry as Gurbani in different parts of the SGGS, did not add a single word of his own, did not give the interpretation of the whole SGGS to us. I would like to know from your point of view is in this aspect.

    By knowing your response in the above, we can discuss about where and with whom lies the "burden of proof".

    Well, you would notice that the pages you gave me with one liners, some of them I could not find and the others I did, support the Gurus' position of no reincarnation.

    I agree.

    Your above statement totally contradicts the one in your previous paragraph,"Baba Nanak "modified" to give practical effect, away from mythological and superstitious of then Indian society". Reincarnation is a myth according to the House of Nanak though acknowledged by the House as an ingrained belief in Hinduism which is not only hard but rather impossible to get rid of. Hence, subtlety became the mode de jour by our Gurus to show the people who were mostly Hindus about how to get rid of this myth.

    I have posted the complete verses from your above one liners without giving my own take because Gurbani is self explanatory. I have also posted what I have not found. Please provide more information about them to be discussed later.

    Please provide your explanation which ones of them talk about reincarnation according to you in Sikhi. The ones in bold are taken from your one liners.

    Page 19 - avan jana na chakai mar janama hoi khuhar


    ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁਮਹਲਾ

    Sirīrāg mėhlā 1.

    Siree Raag, First Mehl:


    ਗੁਰਕਉਜਾਣਿਜਾਣਈਕਿਆਤਿਸੁਚਜੁਅਚਾਰੁ

    Gur ka▫o jāṇ na jāṇ▫ī ki▫ā ṯis cẖaj acẖār.

    Some are very knowledgeable, but if they do not know the Guru, then what is the use of their lives?

    ਜਾਣਿ = ਜਾਣ-ਬੁੱਝਕੇ।ਚਜੁਅਚਾਰੁ = ਰਵਈਆ।ਜੇਹੜਾਮਨੁੱਖਜਾਣਬੁੱਝਕੇਗੁਰੂ (ਦੀਬਜ਼ੁਰਗੀ) ਨੂੰਨਹੀਂਸਮਝਦਾਉਸਦਾਸਾਰਾਜੀਵਨ-ਢੰਗਕੋਝਾਹੈ।


    ਅੰਧੁਲੈਨਾਮੁਵਿਸਾਰਿਆਮਨਮੁਖਿਅੰਧਗੁਬਾਰੁ

    Anḏẖulai nām visāri▫ā manmukẖ anḏẖ gubār.

    The blind have forgotten the Naam, the Name of the Lord. The self-willed manmukhs are in utter darkness.

    ਅੰਧੁਲੈ = ਅੰਨ੍ਹੇਨੇ।ਮਨਮੁਖਿ = ਆਪਣੇਮਨਦੇਪਿੱਛੇਤੁਰਨਵਾਲਾ।ਅੰਧੁਗੁਬਾਰੁ = ਉਹਅੰਨ੍ਹਾਜਿਸਦੇਸਾਹਮਣੇਘੁੱਪਹਨੇਰਾਹੀਹੈ।(ਆਤਮਕਰੌਸ਼ਨੀਵਲੋਂ) ਉਸਅੰਨ੍ਹੇਨੇਪ੍ਰਭੂਦਾਨਾਮਵਿਸਾਰਿਆਹੈ, ਆਪਣੇਮਨਦੇਪਿੱਛੇਤੁਰਨਵਾਲੇਨੂੰ (ਜੀਵਨ-ਪੰਧਵਿਚ) ਘੁੱਪਹਨੇਰਾਹੀਹਨੇਰਾਰਹਿੰਦਾਹੈ।


    ਆਵਣੁਜਾਣੁਚੁਕਈਮਰਿਜਨਮੈਹੋਇਖੁਆਰੁ॥੩॥

    Āvaṇ jāṇ na cẖuk▫ī mar janmai ho▫e kẖu▫ār. ||3||

    Their comings and goings in reincarnation do not end; through death and rebirth, they are wasting away. ||3||

    ਨਚੁਕਈ = ਨਹੀਂਮੁੱਕਦਾ।੩।ਉਸਦਾਜਨਮਮਰਨਦਾਗੇੜਨਹੀਂਮੁੱਕਦਾਉਹਨਿੱਤਜੰਮਦਾਹੈਮਰਦਾਹੈ, ਜੰਮਦਾਹੈ, ਮਰਦਾਹੈਤੇਖ਼ੁਆਰਹੁੰਦਾਰਹਿੰਦਾਹੈ॥੩॥



    Page 124 na vastu loi na chukay fera

    ਮਾਝਮਹਲਾ

    Mājẖ mėhlā 3.

    Maajh, Third Mehl:

    ਬਿਨੁਸਬਦੈਅੰਤਰਿਆਨੇਰਾ

    Bin sabḏai anṯar ānerā.

    Without the Shabad, there is only darkness within.

    ਗੁਰੂਦੇਸ਼ਬਦਤੋਂਬਿਨਾਮਨੁੱਖਦੇਹਿਰਦੇਵਿਚਮਾਇਆਦੇਮੋਹਦਾਹਨੇਰਾਬਣਿਆਰਹਿੰਦਾਹੈ,

    ਵਸਤੁਲਹੈਚੂਕੈਫੇਰਾ

    Na vasaṯ lahai na cẖūkai ferā.

    The genuine article is not found, and the cycle of reincarnation does not end.

    ਜਿਸਕਰਕੇਉਸਨੂੰਆਪਣੇਅੰਦਰੋਂਨਾਮਪਦਾਰਥਨਹੀਂਲੱਭਦਾਤੇਉਸਦਾਜਨਮਮਰਨਦਾਗੇੜਬਣਿਆਰਹਿੰਦਾਹੈ।


    ਸਤਿਗੁਰਹਥਿਕੁੰਜੀਹੋਰਤੁਦਰੁਖੁਲੈਨਾਹੀਗੁਰੁਪੂਰੈਭਾਗਿਮਿਲਾਵਣਿਆ॥੭॥

    Saṯgur hath kunjī horaṯ ḏar kẖulai nāhī gur pūrai bẖāg milāvaṇi▫ā. ||7||

    The key is in the hands of the True Guru; no one else can open this door. By perfect destiny, He is met. ||7||

    ਹਥਿ = ਹੱਥਵਿਚ।ਹੋਰਤੁ = ਕਿਸੇਹੋਰਵਸੀਲੇਨਾਲ।ਦਰੁ = ਦਰਵਾਜ਼ਾ {ਲਫ਼ਜ਼ 'ਦਰ', ਦਰੁ' 'ਦਰਿ' ਦਾਫ਼ਰਕਚੇਤੇਰੱਖਣਜੋਗਹੈ} ॥੭॥(ਮੋਹਦੇਬੱਜਰਕਵਾੜਖੋਹਲਣਲਈ) ਕੁੰਜੀਗੁਰੂਦੇਹੱਥਵਿਚਹੀਹੈ, ਕਿਸੇਹੋਰਵਸੀਲੇਨਾਲਉਹਦਰਵਾਜ਼ਾਨਹੀਂਖੁਲ੍ਹਦਾ।ਤੇ, ਗੁਰੂਭੀਵੱਡੀਕਿਸਮਤਨਾਲਹੀਮਿਲਦਾਹੈ॥੭॥

    Could not find mur mur kamda hun on page 306


    Page 537 537 - ghuman gherian

    ਰਾਗੁਬਿਹਾਗੜਾਚਉਪਦੇਮਹਲਾਘਰੁ

    Rāg bihāgaṛā cẖa▫upḏe mėhlā 5 gẖar 2.

    Raag Bihaagraa, Chau-Padas, Fifth Mehl, Second House:

    ਰਾਗਬਿਹਾਗੜਾ, ਘਰ੨ਵਿੱਚਗੁਰੂਅਰਜਨਦੇਵਜੀਦੀਚਾਰ-ਬੰਦਾਂਵਾਲੀਬਾਣੀ।

    ਦੂਤਨਸੰਗਰੀਆ

    Ḏūṯan sangrī▫ā.

    To associate with those indulging in unethical pursuits,

    ਦੂਤਨਸੰਗਰੀਆ = ਕਾਮਾਦਿਕਵੈਰੀਆਂਦੀਸੰਗਤ।ਕਾਮਾਦਿਕਵੈਰੀਆਂਦੀਸੰਗਤ,

    ਭੁਇਅੰਗਨਿਬਸਰੀਆ

    Bẖu▫i▫angan basrī▫ā.

    is to live with poisonous snakes;

    ਭੁਇਅੰਗ = ਸੱਪ।ਬਸਰੀਆ = ਵਾਸ।ਸੱਪਾਂਨਾਲਵਾਸ (ਦੇਬਰਾਬਰ) ਹੈ,

    ਅਨਿਕਉਪਰੀਆ॥੧॥

    Anik uprī▫ā. ||1||

    that have destroyed many. ||1||

    ਅਨਿਕ = ਅਨੇਕਾਂਨੂੰ।ਉਪਰੀਆ = ਉਪਾੜਿਆ, ਤਬਾਹਕੀਤਾਹੈ॥੧॥(ਇਹਨਾਂਦੂਤਾਂਨੇ) ਅਨੇਕਾਂ (ਦੇਜੀਵਨ) ਨੂੰਤਬਾਹਕੀਤਾਹੈ॥੧॥

    ਤਉਮੈਹਰਿਹਰਿਕਰੀਆ

    Ŧa▫o mai har har karī▫ā.

    Then, I repeated the Name of the Lord, Har, Har,

    ਤਉ = ਤਦੋਂ।ਤਾਹੀਏਂਮੈਂਸਦਾਪਰਮਾਤਮਾਦਾਨਾਮਜਪਦਾਹਾਂ,

    ਤਉਸੁਖਸਹਜਰੀਆ॥੧॥ਰਹਾਉ

    Ŧa▫o sukẖ sėhjarī▫ā. ||1|| rahā▫o.

    and I obtained celestial peace. ||1||Pause||

    ਸੁਖਸਹਜਰੀਆ = ਆਤਮਕਅਡੋਲਤਾਦੇਸੁਖ॥੧॥ਤਦੋਂ (ਤੋਂ) ਮੈਨੂੰਆਤਮਕਅਡੋਲਤਾਦੇਸੁਖਆਨੰਦਪ੍ਰਾਪਤਹਨ॥੧॥ਰਹਾਉ॥

    ਮਿਥਨਮੋਹਰੀਆ

    Mithan mohrī▫ā.

    False is the love of,

    ਮਿਥਨਮੋਹਰੀਆ = ਮਿਥਨਮੋਹ, ਝੂਠਾਮੋਹ।ਜੀਵਨੂੰਝੂਠਾਮੋਹਚੰਬੜਿਆਹੋਇਆਹੈ,

    ਅਨਕਉਮੇਰੀਆ

    An ka▫o merī▫ā.

    many emotional attachments,

    ਅਨਕਉ = ਹੋਰਨਾਂ (ਪਦਾਰਥਾਂ) ਨੂੰ।(ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾਤੋਂਬਿਨਾ) ਹੋਰਹੋਰਪਦਾਰਥਾਂਨੂੰ 'ਮੇਰੇ, ਮੇਰੇ' ਰਟਦਾਰਹਿੰਦਾਹੈ,

    ਵਿਚਿਘੂਮਨਘਿਰੀਆ॥੨॥

    vicẖ gẖūman gẖirī▫ā. ||2||

    which suck the mortal into the whirlpool of reincarnation. ||2||

    ॥੨॥(ਸਾਰੀਉਮਰ) ਮੋਹਦੀਘੁੰਮਣਘੇਰੀਵਿਚਫਸਿਆਰਹਿੰਦਾਹੈ॥੨॥


    Page 524 ਸਲੋਕਮਃ॥ 524 - avan jana reha janam na teha sar. Actually it is Āvaṇ jāṇ rahe janam na ṯahā mar. Not Sar

    Salok mėhlā 5.

    Shalok, Fifth Mehl:


    ਪਉੜੀ

    Pauree:

    ਸਿਮਰਿਸਿਮਰਿਦਾਤਾਰੁਮਨੋਰਥਪੂਰਿਆ

    Simar simar ḏāṯār manorath pūri▫ā.

    Meditating, meditating in remembrance of the Great Giver, one's heart's desires are fulfilled.

    ਸਭਦਾਤਾਂਦੇਣਵਾਲੇਪਰਮਾਤਮਾਨੂੰਸਿਮਰਸਿਮਰਕੇ (ਮਨਦੇ) ਮਨੋਰਥਪੂਰੇਹੋਜਾਂਦੇਹਨ,

    ਇਛਪੁੰਨੀਮਨਿਆਸਗਏਵਿਸੂਰਿਆ

    Icẖẖ punnī man ās ga▫e visūri▫ā.

    The hopes and desires of the mind are realized, and sorrows are forgotten.

    ਪੁੰਨੀ = ਪੂਰੀਹੋਗਈ।ਮਨਿ = ਮਨਵਿਚ।ਵਿਸੂਰਿਆ = ਵਿਸੂਰੇ, ਝੋਰੇ।ਮਨਵਿਚ (ਉਠਦੀਆਂ) ਆਸਾਂਤੇਇੱਛਾਂਪੂਰੀਆਂਹੋਜਾਂਦੀਆਂਹਨ, ਤੇ (ਦੁਨੀਆਵਾਲੇ) ਝੋਰੇਮਿਟਜਾਂਦੇਹਨ।

    ਪਾਇਆਨਾਮੁਨਿਧਾਨੁਜਿਸਨੋਭਾਲਦਾ

    Pā▫i▫ā nām niḏẖān jis no bẖālḏā.

    The treasure of the Naam, the Name of the Lord, is obtained; I have searched for it for so long.

    ਜੋ 'ਨਾਮ'-ਖ਼ਜ਼ਾਨੇਦੀਭਾਲਵਿਚਲੱਗਦਾਹੈਉਹਇਸਨੂੰਪ੍ਰਾਪਤਹੋਜਾਂਦਾਹੈ,

    ਜੋਤਿਮਿਲੀਸੰਗਿਜੋਤਿਰਹਿਆਘਾਲਦਾ

    Joṯ milī sang joṯ rahi▫ā gẖālḏā.

    My light is merged into the Light, and my labors are over.

    ਰਹਿਆ = ਰਹਿਗਿਆ, ਹਟਗਿਆ।ਰਹਿਆਘਾਲਦਾ = ਮਿਹਨਤਦੀਲੋੜਨਾਹਰਹੀ।ਤੇਇਸਤਰ੍ਹਾਂਆਤਮਾਪ੍ਰਭੂਦੀਜੋਤਿਵਿਚਲੀਨਹੋਜਾਂਦੀਹੈਤੇ (ਮਾਇਆਦੀਖ਼ਾਤਰ) ਦੌੜ-ਭੱਜਭਟਕਣਾਰਹਿਜਾਂਦੀਹੈ,

    ਸੂਖਸਹਜਆਨੰਦਵੁਠੇਤਿਤੁਘਰਿ

    Sūkẖ sahj ānanḏ vuṯẖe ṯiṯ gẖar.

    I abide in that house of peace, poise and bliss.

    ਤਿਤੁਘਰਿ = ਉਸ (ਹਿਰਦੇ-ਰੂਪ) ਘਰਵਿਚ।ਅਤੇਉਹਨ੍ਹਾਂਦੇਹਿਰਦੇ-ਘਰਵਿਚਸੁਖ, ਅਡੋਲਤਾ, ਖ਼ੁਸ਼ੀਆਵੱਸਦੇਹਨ,

    ਆਵਣਜਾਣਰਹੇਜਨਮੁਤਹਾਮਰਿ

    Āvaṇ jāṇ rahe janam na ṯahā mar.

    My comings and goings have ended - there is no birth or death there.

    ਮਰਿ = ਮਰੀ, ਮੌਤ।ਤੇਉਨ੍ਹਾਂਦੇਜਨਮਮਰਨਮੁੱਕਜਾਂਦੇਹਨ, ਓਥੇਉਨ੍ਹਾਂਲਈਕੋਈਜਨਮਤੇਮੌਤਨਹੀਂਹਨ।


    ਸਾਹਿਬੁਸੇਵਕੁਇਕੁਇਕੁਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਾਇਆ

    Sāhib sevak ik ik ḏaristā▫i▫ā.

    The Master and the servant have become one, with no sense of separation.

    ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਾਇਆ = ਨਜ਼ਰੀਂਆਇਆ।(ਇਸਅਵਸਥਾਵਿਚਅੱਪੜਿਆਹੋਇਆ) ਸੇਵਕਤੇਮਾਲਕ-ਪ੍ਰਭੂਇਕ-ਰੂਪਨਜ਼ਰੀਂਆਉਂਦੇਹਨ।

    ਗੁਰਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿਨਾਨਕਸਚਿਸਮਾਇਆ॥੨੧॥੧॥੨॥ਸੁਧੁ

    Gur parsāḏ Nānak sacẖ samā▫i▫ā. ||21||1||2|| suḏẖu

    By Guru's Grace, Nanak is absorbed in the True Lord. ||21||1||2||Sudh||

    ਸਚਿ = ਸੱਚੇਹਰੀਵਿਚ॥੨੧॥੧॥੨॥ਹੇਨਾਨਕ! (ਐਸਾਸੇਵਕ) ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂਦੀਕਿਰਪਾਨਾਲਸਦਾ-ਥਿਰਰਹਿਣਵਾਲੇਪ੍ਰਭੂਵਿਚਲੀਨਹੋਜਾਂਦਾਹੈ॥੨੧॥੧॥੨॥

    Could not find 176 - kei janam bei keet


    Page 694 - bohat janam bishra

    ਬਹੁਤਜਨਮਬਿਛੁਰੇਥੇਮਾਧਉਇਹੁਜਨਮੁਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਰੇਲੇਖੇ

    Bahuṯ janam bicẖẖure the māḏẖa▫o ih janam ṯumĥāre lekẖe.

    For so many incarnations, I have been separated from You, Lord; I dedicate this life to You.

    ਮਾਧਉ = ਹੇਮਾਧੋ! ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਰੇਲੇਖੇ = (ਭਾਵ,) ਤੇਰੀਯਾਦਵਿਚਬੀਤੇ।ਰਵਿਦਾਸਆਖਦਾਹੈ-ਹੇਮਾਧੋ! ਕਈਜਨਮਾਂਤੋਂਮੈਂਤੈਥੋਂਵਿਛੁੜਿਆਆਰਿਹਾਹਾਂ (ਮਿਹਰਕਰ, ਮੇਰਾ) ਇਹਜਨਮਤੇਰੀਯਾਦਵਿਚਬੀਤੇ;

    ਕਹਿਰਵਿਦਾਸਆਸਲਗਿਜੀਵਉਚਿਰਭਇਓਦਰਸਨੁਦੇਖੇ॥੨॥੧॥

    Kahi Raviḏās ās lag jīva▫o cẖir bẖa▫i▫o ḏarsan ḏekẖe. ||2||1||

    Says Ravi Daas: placing my hopes in You, I live; it is so long since I have gazed upon the Blessed Vision of Your Darshan. ||2||1||

    ਕਹਿ = ਕਹੇ, ਆਖਦਾਹੈ॥੨॥੧॥ਤੇਰਾਦੀਦਾਰਕੀਤਿਆਂਬੜਾਚਿਰਹੋਗਿਆਹੈ, (ਦਰਸ਼ਨਦੀ) ਆਸਵਿਚਹੀਮੈਂਜੀਊਂਦਾਹਾਂ॥੨॥੧॥

    Page 823 - janam ki mal ghai

    ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁਮਹਲਾ

    Bilāval mėhlā 5.

    Bilaaval, Fifth Mehl:

    ਗੁਰਿਪੂਰੈਮੇਰੀਰਾਖਿਲਈ

    Gur pūrai merī rākẖ la▫ī.

    The Perfect Guru has saved me.

    ਗੁਰਿ = ਗੁਰੂਨੇ।(ਹੇਭਾਈ! ਵਿਕਾਰਾਂਦੇਟਾਕਰੇਤੇ) ਪੂਰੇਗੁਰੂਨੇਮੇਰੀਇੱਜ਼ਤਰੱਖਲਈਹੈ।


    ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਨਾਮੁਰਿਦੇਮਹਿਦੀਨੋਜਨਮਜਨਮਕੀਮੈਲੁਗਈ॥੧॥ਰਹਾਉ

    Amriṯ nām riḏe mėh ḏīno janam janam kī mail ga▫ī. ||1|| rahā▫o.

    He has enshrined the Ambrosial Name of the Lord within my heart, and the filth of countless incarnations has been washed away. ||1||Pause||

    ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ = ਆਤਮਕਜੀਵਨਦੇਣਵਾਲਾ।ਰਿਦੇਮਹਿ = ਹਿਰਦੇਵਿਚ॥੧॥ਗੁਰੂਨੇਆਤਮਕਜੀਵਨਦੇਣਵਾਲਾਹਰਿ-ਨਾਮਮੇਰੇਹਿਰਦੇਵਿਚਵਸਾਦਿੱਤਾਹੈ, (ਉਸਨਾਮਦੀਬਰਕਤਿਨਾਲ) ਅਨੇਕਾਂਜਨਮਾਂਦੇਕੀਤੇਕਰਮਾਂਦੀਮੈਲਮੇਰੇਮਨਵਿਚੋਂਦੂਰਹੋਗਈਹੈ॥੧॥ਰਹਾਉ॥

    Page 584 - phir avan jana na huya. Could not find it.

    Thanks for the lovely interaction.
    Regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
    #10 Tejwant Singh, Jun 24, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2015
  12. Original

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    Tejwant Singh Ji

    The reason for the letter re "Arundhati" to my daughter was to show her and others, that although, Arundhati's findings were correct they were not interpretated in line with social convention. As a critique, she failed [Arundhati] to provide a credible narrative.

    Reincarnation

    I'm assuming you're well versed in Gurmukhi and accordingly provide full text extracted from Professor Sahib Singh's interpretations. Kindly read and sift meaning. There are others, but I'll refrain. If for whatever reason you cannot accept, then you're not alone - I wish you well, overall. However, if you were to engage in the belief that the Banikars lived an era when the then ideology [reincarnation] was rife and that the Banikars relied upon it to navigate the soul from mere manmukh to specific gurmukh then Gurbani will become nectar. That is because your thought process will be in line with the proponents and you'll be on the same wavelength as them. Viewing it through gorafied lenses [western ideologists] and dismissing it as "Hindu" ideology will take you away from the subject matter - in my humble opinion.

    I've put in bold for you to reflect so that you can read up Professor Sahib Singh and perhaps other commentators in reference.

    From both theology and ideology perspective Sikhism is absolutely clear on the subject- matter, that is, " hey soul, this life is for nam simran so you're 84 lakh joon is cut and you don't return to this physical world again". The theme throughout SGGSJ is the same, however, in light of the evolution of our brains we tend to see life, death, rebirth differently. The Banikars accepted the ideology of their time and directed the separated soul how to break-free from the fetters of 84 lakh joon.

    Tej, I do not wish to change or influence you in any way because Gurbani is universal and appeals to individuals in so many different ways. Provided you reap like the bumble bee, honey - it doesn't matter which flower you're sitting on.

    God bless you -

    Page 19
    ਆਵਣੁ ਜਾਣੁ ਨ ਚੁਕਈ ਮਰਿ ਜਨਮੈ ਹੋਇ ਖੁਆਰੁ ॥੩॥ ਚੰਦਨੁ ਮੋਲਿ ਅਣਾਇਆ ਕੁੰਗੂ ਮਾਂਗ ਸੰਧੂਰੁ ॥ ਚੋਆ ਚੰਦਨੁ ਬਹੁ ਘਣਾ ਪਾਨਾ ਨਾਲਿ ਕਪੂਰੁ ॥ ਜੇ ਧਨ ਕੰਤਿ ਨ ਭਾਵਈ ਤ ਸਭਿ ਅਡੰਬਰ ਕੂੜੁ ॥੪॥ ਸਭਿ ਰਸ ਭੋਗਣ ਬਾਦਿ ਹਹਿ ਸਭਿ ਸੀਗਾਰ ਵਿਕਾਰ ॥ ਜਬ ਲਗੁ ਸਬਦਿ ਨ ਭੇਦੀਐ ਕਿਉ ਸੋਹੈ ਗੁਰਦੁਆਰਿ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਧੰਨੁ ਸੁਹਾਗਣੀ ਜਿਨ ਸਹ ਨਾਲਿ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥੫॥੧੩॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 19

    Page 124
    ਨ ਵਸਤੁ ਲਹੈ ਨ ਚੂਕੈ ਫੇਰਾ ॥ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਹਥਿ ਕੁੰਜੀ ਹੋਰਤੁ ਦਰੁ ਖੁਲੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਰੈ ਭਾਗਿ ਮਿਲਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੭॥ ਗੁਪਤੁ ਪਰਗਟੁ ਤੂੰ ਸਭਨੀ ਥਾਈ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਮਿਲਿ ਸੋਝੀ ਪਾਈ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਲਾਹਿ ਸਦਾ ਤੂੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਮੰਨਿ ਵਸਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੮॥੨੪॥੨੫॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 124}

    Page 306
    ਪਉੜੀ ॥ ਜੋ ਤੁਧੁ ਸਚੁ ਧਿਆਇਦੇ ਸੇ ਵਿਰਲੇ ਥੋੜੇ ॥ ਜੋ ਮਨਿ ਚਿਤਿ ਇਕੁ ਅਰਾਧਦੇ ਤਿਨ ਕੀ ਬਰਕਤਿ ਖਾਹਿ ਅਸੰਖ ਕਰੋੜੇ ॥ ਤੁਧੁਨੋ ਸਭ ਧਿਆਇਦੀ ਸੇ ਥਾਇ ਪਏ ਜੋ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਲੋੜੇ ॥ ਜੋ ਬਿਨੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੇਵੇ ਖਾਦੇ ਪੈਨਦੇ ਸੇ ਮੁਏ ਮਰਿ ਜੰਮੇ ਕੋੜ੍ਹੇ ॥ ਓਇ ਹਾਜਰੁ ਮਿਠਾ ਬੋਲਦੇ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਵਿਸੁ ਕਢਹਿ ਮੁਖਿ ਘੋਲੇ ॥ ਮਨਿ ਖੋਟੇ ਦਯਿ ਵਿਛੋੜੇ ॥੧੧॥

    Page 537
    ਦੂਤਨ ਸੰਗਰੀਆ ॥ ਭੁਇਅੰਗਨਿ ਬਸਰੀਆ ॥ ਅਨਿਕ ਉਪਰੀਆ ॥੧॥ ਤਉ ਮੈ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਕਰੀਆ ॥ ਤਉ ਸੁਖ ਸਹਜਰੀਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਮਿਥਨ ਮੋਹਰੀਆ ॥ ਅਨ ਕਉ ਮੇਰੀਆ ॥ ਵਿਚਿ ਘੂਮਨ ਘਿਰੀਆ ॥੨॥ ਸਗਲ ਬਟਰੀਆ ॥ ਬਿਰਖ ਇਕ ਤਰੀਆ ॥ ਬਹੁ ਬੰਧਹਿ ਪਰੀਆ ॥੩॥ ਥਿਰੁ ਸਾਧ ਸਫਰੀਆ ॥ ਜਹ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਹਰੀਆ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਰਨਰੀਆ ॥੪॥੧॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 537}

    Page 524
    ਪਉੜੀ ॥ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਦਾਤਾਰੁ ਮਨੋਰਥ ਪੂਰਿਆ ॥ ਇਛ ਪੁੰਨੀ ਮਨਿ ਆਸ ਗਏ ਵਿਸੂਰਿਆ ॥ ਪਾਇਆ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਧਾਨੁ ਜਿਸ ਨੋ ਭਾਲਦਾ ॥ ਜੋਤਿ ਮਿਲੀ ਸੰਗਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਘਾਲਦਾ ॥ ਸੂਖ ਸਹਜ ਆਨੰਦ ਵੁਠੇ ਤਿਤੁ ਘਰਿ ॥ ਆਵਣ ਜਾਣ ਰਹੇ ਜਨਮੁ ਨ ਤਹਾ ਮਰਿ ॥ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸੇਵਕੁ ਇਕੁ ਇਕੁ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਾਇਆ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਚਿ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥੨੧॥੧॥੨॥

    Page 694
    ਧਨਾਸਰੀ ਭਗਤ ਰਵਿਦਾਸ ਜੀ ਕੀ ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ ਹਮ ਸਰਿ ਦੀਨੁ ਦਇਆਲੁ ਨ ਤੁਮ ਸਰਿ ਅਬ ਪਤੀਆਰੁ ਕਿਆ ਕੀਜੈ ॥ ਬਚਨੀ ਤੋਰ ਮੋਰ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨੈ ਜਨ ਕਉ ਪੂਰਨੁ ਦੀਜੈ ॥੧॥ ਹਉ ਬਲਿ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਉ ਰਮਈਆ ਕਾਰਨੇ ॥ ਕਾਰਨ ਕਵਨ ਅਬੋਲ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਬਹੁਤ ਜਨਮ ਬਿਛੁਰੇ ਥੇ ਮਾਧਉ ਇਹੁ ਜਨਮੁ ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਰੇ ਲੇਖੇ ॥ ਕਹਿ ਰਵਿਦਾਸ ਆਸ ਲਗਿ ਜੀਵਉ ਚਿਰ ਭਇਓ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਦੇਖੇ ॥੨॥੧॥

    Page 823
    ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ ਗੁਰਿ ਪੂਰੈ ਮੇਰੀ ਰਾਖਿ ਲਈ ॥ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਨਾਮੁ ਰਿਦੇ ਮਹਿ ਦੀਨੋ ਜਨਮ ਜਨਮ ਕੀ ਮੈਲੁ ਗਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ਨਿਵਰੇ ਦੂਤ ਦੁਸਟ ਬੈਰਾਈ ਗੁਰ ਪੂਰੇ ਕਾ ਜਪਿਆ ਜਾਪੁ ॥ ਕਹਾ ਕਰੈ ਕੋਈ ਬੇਚਾਰਾ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਮੇਰੇ ਕਾ ਬਡ ਪਰਤਾਪੁ ॥੧॥ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਚਰਨ ਕਮਲ ਰਖੁ ਮਨ ਮਾਹੀ ॥ ਤਾ ਕੀ ਸਰਨਿ ਪਰਿਓ ਨਾਨਕ ਦਾਸੁ ਜਾ ਤੇ ਊਪਰਿ ਕੋ ਨਾਹੀ ॥੨॥੧੨॥੯੮॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 823-824}
     
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  13. LSD

    LSD
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    Tejwant= For me and to many others too, the beautiful Sikhi tapestry is in 1429 pages, hence interwoven. Page 1430 is an ugly knot on this gorgeous tapestry and no one knows the author of this knot unlike the beautiful interwoven design in 1429 previous pages.

    No saroops are printed with 1429 angs.
    I wonder who is your real guru??

    Tejwant=evolution of one's thought process in Sikhi as mentioned above has also made some of us question the biblical slant and thus the misleading English translations of SGGS, which can be a point of discussion in another thread.

    Pleas show examples of misleading translations. >>>do you think biblical slant of using desscriptions like Lord for the undescribable are misleading??
    >>Why are you using term "biblical slant"" in derogatory manner?? as speaking lowly of other faith that you probably don't understand 25% ??



    Tejwant=The omnipresence of Ik Ong Kaar is demonstrated in almost all the 1429 pages of SGGS which shows the acceptance of ALL sans bias. I will post some verses just for reference. The literal translation is by Sant Singh Khalsa, a Caucasian convert.

    Again Mr Tejwant>> excuse my lowly grammar and bad English>>> but why are you emphasising the term Caucasian convert in the sentence which implies that you show lowest regards for Sant singh Khalsa and his work???

    On one hand you quoted <SAb gobind hai, sab gobind hai, gibind bin na koyee>> and then you contradict the statement by speaking lowly of bible and a Caucasian converts.>>I'm no psychologist>> but even a dope like me can see your prejudice intentions
     
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  14. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Original Ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    Thanks for the response. Much appreciated.

    The one in bold above is your opinion as you have repeated it again and it seems quite derogatory especially coming from a learned, well versed person like you. Having said that, I am not offended by it. If it were {censored word, do not repeat.} for tat then I could say that you think like a Hindu but I would not do that. This forum is not meant to be for that purpose but to the contrary. This is what acceptance in Sikhi is all about.

    You have also addressed many posters as "Son" which does make me uneasy because we are all equal here, but I never mentioned about it before. I would never use "Son" to address anyone in a forum or in person, even to my own son whom I address by his first name. How dare I? Well, that's me. And this is your way which is fine with me.

    We can disagree on many subjects about Sikhi because a Sikh never stops learning till one's last breath. This is its beauty because each of us carry our own Gurmat torch.

    Thanks for doing that and all Shabads agree with my point of view regarding reincarnation.

    As mentioned before, acknowledgement of any belief, in this case reincarnation, does not mean its acceptance and you yourself have shown that below in bold which shows how our Gurus gave us the tools to get rid of this belief called reincarnation.

    We are on the same page as you have admitted above what is in bold written by you.

    Original ji, we are all here to interact. Thanks to the cyber Sadh Sangat, I have learnt a lot, especially from your many posts and threads that you started. We are not here to change anyone's mind but to show our point of view regarding the subject. We are all learners as Sikhs.

    Thanks once again for sharing the beauty of Gurbani above.

    We will continue on our Gurmat journey as individuals. Let's all enjoy the ride. :)

    Regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
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    #13 Tejwant Singh, Jun 24, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2015
  15. harmanpreet singh

    harmanpreet singh India
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    Original >>I've put in bold for you to reflect so that you can read up Professor Sahib Singh and perhaps other commentators in reference.
    Tejwant>>Thanks for doing that and all Shabads agree with my point of view regarding reincarnation.

    lets see ...

    Page 19
    ॥ ਆਵਣੁ ਜਾਣੁ ਨ ਚੁਕਈ ਮਰਿ ਜਨਮੈ ਹੋਇ ਖੁਆਰੁ ॥੩॥


    Professor Sahib Singh s explanation
    ਉਸ ਦਾ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਦਾ ਗੇੜ ਨਹੀਂ ਮੁੱਕਦਾ ਉਹ
    ਨਿੱਤ ਜੰਮਦਾ ਹੈ ਮਰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਜੰਮਦਾ ਹੈ, ਮਰਦਾ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਖ਼ੁਆਰ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ ।੩।


    Page 124
    ॥ ਨ ਵਸਤੁ ਲਹੈ ਨ ਚੂਕੈ ਫੇਰਾ ॥

    Professor Sahib Singh s explanation

    ਗੁਰੂ ਦੇ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਤੋਂ ਬਿਨਾ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਦੇ ਹਿਰਦੇ ਵਿਚ ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਮੋਹ ਦਾ ਹਨੇਰਾ ਬਣਿਆ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ ਜਿਸ ਕਰਕੇ
    ਉਸ ਨੂ ਆਪਣੇ ਅੰਦਰੋਂ ਨਾਮ ਪਦਾਰਥ ਨਹੀਂ ਲੱਭਦਾ ਤੇ ਉਸ ਦਾ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਦਾ ਗੇੜ ਬਣਿਆ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ

    ਪੰਨਾ 95, ਸਤਰ 16
    ਭਾਗਹੀਨ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਨਹੀ ਪਾਇਆ ਮਨਮੁਖੁ ਗਰਭ ਜੂਨੀ ਨਿਤਿ ਪਉਦਾ ਜੀਉ ॥੩॥


    ਜੇਹੜਾ ਮਨੁੱਖ
    ਆਪਣੇ ਮਨ ਦੇ ਪਿੱਛੇ ਤੁਰਦਾ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਉਹ ਸਦਾ ਜੂਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਗੇੜ ਵਿਚ ਪਿਆ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ ।੩।


    So Tejwant ji ,do you agrees with death -birth cycle( ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਦਾ ਗੇੜ) ?
     
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  16. Tejwant Singh

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    Harmanpreet ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    I would urge you to study the whole Shabads one by one and then you will understand what I am trying to convey. If you like you can post one Shabad at a time with your own understanding and we can interact on them.

    I will give you just one example from the above on page 19. I will not post the whole shabad but the whole verse because one liners above do not do any justice to Gurbani's message.

    ਗੁਰ ਕਉ ਜਾਣਿ ਜਾਣਈ ਕਿਆ ਤਿਸੁ ਚਜੁ ਅਚਾਰੁ
    Gur ka▫o jāṇ na jāṇ▫ī ki▫ā ṯis cẖaj acẖār.
    Some are very knowledgeable, but if they do not know the Guru, then what is the use of their lives?

    ਅੰਧੁਲੈ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਿਸਾਰਿਆ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਅੰਧ ਗੁਬਾਰੁ
    Anḏẖulai nām visāri▫ā manmukẖ anḏẖ gubār.
    The blind have forgotten the Naam, the Name of the Lord. The self-willed manmukhs are in utter darkness.

    ਆਵਣੁ ਜਾਣੁ ਚੁਕਈ ਮਰਿ ਜਨਮੈ ਹੋਇ ਖੁਆਰੁ ॥੩॥
    Āvaṇ jāṇ na cẖuk▫ī mar janmai ho▫e kẖu▫ār. ||3||
    Their comings and goings in reincarnation do not end; through death and rebirth, they are wasting away. ||3||

    What do you understand by studying the whole verse now? The first line will give you a hint.

    Regarding:
    Thanks to the tools given by my Gurus through Gurbani, I am out of "death -birth cycle( ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਦਾ ਗੇੜ)".

    Regards

    Tejwant Singh

    PS: Will wait for your understanding of the each Shabad one by one so we all can become better Sikhs.
     
  17. Original

    Original
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    Tejwant

    I'm glad you've taken a stance from which you can see that the Banikars "accepted" the then ideology of reincarnation and as a result offered "tools" [as you put it] to break free from this 84 cycle of life n death. It is this cycle of life, death, rebirth which is called "reincarnation". And, yes you're right when you've stated, "Thanks to the tools given by my Gurus through Gurbani, I am out of "death -birth cycle( ਜਨਮ ਮਰਨ ਦਾ ਗੇੜ)", that you are out of reincarnation.
    Just because you are out of reincarnation by the grace of your Guru [your admission above] what about Joe Public ? And, that is where your Sikhi comes in, to take out Joe Public, just like you were taken out.

    Present day thought on reincarnation is different, but from Sikh Pillar perspective it forms the very basis upon which Nanak's theory is constructed.

    Much has been said - on my part, I'll take leave from reincarnation and perhaps when time permits, I will do an essay confirming the same.

    Until then -
    Glory to be God
     
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  18. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Original ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    With due respect, now you are doing nothing but playing a game of words and contradicting yourself which is once again fine with me.

    As a lawyer, you know the definition of words to their minutiae because your profession demands that from you. Hence, you know the difference between the words "acceptance" and "acknowledgement".

    Please allow me to take the liberty of using your word "acceptance" above. If our Gurus had "accepted" the status quo of the belief in Reincarnation, then there would not have been any need to give us the tools to get rid of this belief. Simply put. Yourself, out of all of us know the difference because of your background and your deep knowledge of Gurbani.

    Finally, I would like to add that our Gurus acknowledged, not accepted many other Hindu and Islamic rituals such as; fasting, pilgrimages like going to Hariduar and/or Hajj and many others but rather rejected them. This is the reason they gave us tools to get rid of these beliefs for our journey on this beautiful Sikhi path.

    Thanks for the great interaction. As a Sikh I am fortunate to learn from a learned Sikh like you.

    Regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
  19. Original

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    Mera pyara veer -

    Forgive me if I've injured feelings - wasn't intentional. Like you I'm a lover of poetry and will try n see if I can find good Sufi lyrics to post. Guru Nanak was so inspired by Sufi wisdom that he went over to Baba Fraid Ji's residence and collected his literature which is evident in SGGSJ.

    I've just been chatting with brother Chaz, and promised to move over to discuss our Guru Ji's Gyan. I am conscious of your passion for Gurbani, maybe we can touch few verses.

    Look forward to exchange -

    Goodnight & Godbless
     
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  20. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Original Ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    No, you have not hurt my feelings in any shape or form because Sikhi interaction enriches us all, there is no pain but only gain here. I can vouch myself for the latter, thanks to you and your insights of Gurbani and the beautiful way you express them, you have made me wiser and richer. So, please do not feel like that. There is no need to. We are all brethren and sisters in arms with only one objective, to become better Sikhs.

    I am in love with Sufi poetry too. So, please feel free to post it.

    I would like to make one more request to you. With your Sikhi wisdom and love for Sikhi, you have a very good way of putting things in words for the young generation to understand. I would like you to become the pillar of SPN here because your participation is very vital for all; Sikhs, Non-Sikhs, Novices and everyone inbetween.

    In other words, your voice is of utmost importance to the cyber sangat here at SPN. I would like you to play a vital role in that. Any help you need from me, I am available. We are all in this together.

    Thanks once again for everything.

    Regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
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    #19 Tejwant Singh, Jun 26, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2015

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