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Controversial Sikh Parents Urge Families To Accept Their LGBT Children

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by Tejwant Singh, Jun 30, 2014.

  1. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Video: Sikh Parents Urge Families To Accept Their LGBT Children

    Posted in:LeisureTagsAsia, Asian Pride Project, Family, Featured, Gay, LGBT, Parents, Sikh

    The Asian Pride Project has released a video where , Harcharan Bagga, father of a gay sikh man, and his wife Kamlesh Bagga, urge other parents and the society to accept LGBTs. In the video, they talk about how LGBT children are often discriminated against in the society and looked down upon. “It is time we accept our children, love them and be proud of them and give them their rights in society,” the mother says. “I am proud of my son, I have always been proud of my son,” Mr Bagga proudly says in the video. They urge other parents to share the story of their LGBT children. The video ends with a beautiful message, where the complete family of Mr. Bagga says: “Parivar te parivar hi honda hain, te parivar da matlab hi pyaar hai.” (Family after all is family, and family implies love).

    The Asian Pride Project is an online space for family and friends of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) Asian & Pacific Islander (API) people. Their website describes the project as ”a place to share our stories and experiences with each other, in the languages of our communities, in video, sound, pictures, and words.” They aspires to foster greater visibility, pride, acceptance, unity, and harmony for all LGBT Asians & Pacific Islander (API) people in their families, cultural communities and beyond.

    http://www.gaylaxymag.com/articles/...-urge-families-to-accept-their-lgbt-children/
     

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  3. Inderjeet Kaur

    Inderjeet Kaur
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    I have been advocating acceptance since the 1960s, back when it was socially accepted, even expected to disrespect LGBT people is every way possible. This was back even before the Stonewall Riots of 1969, the beginning of the LGBT Civil Rights Movement. I remember one of my favorite protest singer/songwriters, Phil Ochs, making a joke about DAR (Daughters of the American Revolution) as Dykes of the..., a statement forever memorialized in the recording of "Love Me, I'm A Liberal." (1:27)

    I am a strong supporter of marriage equality, as well. I do feel the need to point out that the SRM would need to be amended to allow a same sex anand Karaj, something I think unlikely to occur.

    This is a very thought-provoking article that undermines itself with something having nothing to do with the subject. The line quoted above contains a very obvious grammatical error that draws attention from the message. I am not splitting hairs. People do notice this sort of thing and it automatically lessens the credibility of both author and article.
     
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  4. Canada

    Canada
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    You know, if people just stop talking about what they do with their private parts in public; there'd be no more discrimination.

    Much like how Morgan Freeman said to end racism, we just need to stop talking about it.

    If you take a moment to consider how powerful language is supposed to be for us as Sikhs, it's clear that if there's no language to distinguish gays, lesbians, transgender folk from just "people" then there's nothing to discriminate against.

    Unfortunately, people are egotistical and want everyone to know what's between their legs, and where they decide to put it/what they decide to put in it. I think the whole thing is ridiculous and a waste of time.
     
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  5. linzer

    linzer Mexico
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    I don't think not talking about something has ever been a particularly good way to solve problems , unless of course, your Jathedar of the Akal Takht and the opinión of some rich black actor is not a good basis for arguement about race.
    Let me give you just one example . Back in the late 70's my parents had a gay couple as business associates. At that time polite people didn't talk about that sort of thing. Everyone knew that they were "Queer "but no one talked about it. They had been together for many years, I really don't know how many. They were both up in years when one of them fell ill and had to be hospitalized. He died alone because the hospital did'nt consider his partner to be family and would allow him to visit. His own "family" had long before disowned him for being "queer". It broke the heart of the other fellow to not be with his life partner in his last days.

    The LGBT community has had to fight long and hard to get a bare mínimum of rights and there still not equal yet. The only people that benefit by "just not talking about it" are the ones doing the discriminating. If The Blacks had'nt spoken up they'd still be sitting at the back of the bus.
    If Guru ji hadn't spoken up there would be no Sikhs left and I imagine most Hindus would now be Muslims.
     
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  6. Inderjeet Kaur

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    Being LGBT isn't just about sex; it's about one's orientation to life. I am not LGBT, but I can imagine not being able to be in public with my life partner, getting fired from my job or given a dishonourable discharge from the military. Until very recently, this was the law. Pretending the situation doesn't exist will only cause more pain for people who already have more than enough pain in their lives.
     
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  7. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Sorry to say but that is nothing but hogwash. If Guru Nanak did not object against wearing the meaningless janeio, then we would all be wearing one and still be "irrigating" the Sun. If our Gurus did not speak against the injustice and equality for all by giving their lives for all humankind, irrespective of hue, creed, faith and other things, there would not be 'a way of life' called Sikhi.

    Conversation no matter how uneasy it may be is the only way to sow the seeds of acceptance. Not talking about things is called MONVRAT in Sanskrit which literally means to remain mum.Hindus did that during the Mughal era and as a result their wives, sisters and daughters got abducted and raped by the Mughals. The only ones who saved them from this fiendish plunder were the Sikhs. History is its proof.

    If your theory were true then the Woolworth's counters would be for Whites Only till today.

    So talking about the sexual orientation is must because people should come to the realisation that it is not a choice. No one likes to get stoned at, spat at, discriminated against because they were born like that. They did not have a choice as you and I do not for our own sexuality.

    All of us should raise our voices against injustice towards anyone and everyone. It is the duty of each and every Sikh.

    Tejwant Singh
     
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    #6 Tejwant Singh, Jul 9, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2014
  8. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    I find this a real closed mind view of the whole LGBT issue, do you think that being LGBT is all about sex?. Your post intimates that you yourself discriminate because your fed up with having such folk talk about sex, and if only they would shut up, then you would accept them.

    by 'it'do you mean the entire LGBT issue or just the sex? Do you imagine the entire LGBT community are all highly sexed individuals who are incapable of talking about anything else?

    unless of course they are talking about their private parts! yes, I find this a huge problem, I have a regular customer who is undergoing a sex change, I always give her a kiss and a hug, tell her she looks very nice today, but your right, as soon as she walks in, all she wants to talk about is her genitals, rather than the pain she is in from the operation, the abuse she gets from her neighbours, kids in the street, people that judge her, to me she is just another blonde, but yes this constant genital discussion does get on my nerves, I see how it is a problem for you

    Well I am not sure which people you socialise with, but I do not seem to have this problem with LBGT folk, or indeed anyone, that is quite a general statement, perhaps you should get out more? or maybe your social circle is made up of people that talk about their genitals, have you thought of socialising with people that do not? it might be good for you to do this, as it may change your rather blinkered view of the subject.

    In fact, this merely goes to show what I have suspected all along, allow me to quote page 1289, the famous page!

    ਮਃ ੧ ॥ मः १ ॥ Mėhlā 1. First Mehl:
    ਮਾਸੁ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਰਿ ਮੂਰਖੁ ਝਗੜੇ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਣੈ ॥ मासु मासु करि मूरखु झगड़े गिआनु धिआनु नही जाणै ॥ Mās mās kar mūrakẖ jẖagṛe gi▫ān ḏẖi▫ān nahī jāṇai.
    The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom.

    ਕਉਣੁ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਉਣੁ ਸਾਗੁ ਕਹਾਵੈ ਕਿਸੁ ਮਹਿ ਪਾਪ ਸਮਾਣੇ ॥ कउणु मासु कउणु सागु कहावै किसु महि पाप समाणे ॥ Ka▫uṇ mās ka▫uṇ sāg kahāvai kis mėh pāp samāṇe.
    What is called meat, and what is called green vegetables? What leads to sin?

    ਗੈਂਡਾ ਮਾਰਿ ਹੋਮ ਜਗ ਕੀਏ ਦੇਵਤਿਆ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੇ ॥ गैंडा मारि होम जग कीए देवतिआ की बाणे ॥ Gaiʼndā mār hom jag kī▫e ḏeviṯi▫ā kī bāṇe.
    It was the habit of the gods to kill the rhinoceros, and make a feast of the burnt offering.

    ਮਾਸੁ ਛੋਡਿ ਬੈਸਿ ਨਕੁ ਪਕੜਹਿ ਰਾਤੀ ਮਾਣਸ ਖਾਣੇ ॥ मासु छोडि बैसि नकु पकड़हि राती माणस खाणे ॥ Mās cẖẖod bais nak pakṛėh rāṯī māṇas kẖāṇe.
    Those who renounce meat, and hold their noses when sitting near it, devour men at night.

    ਫੜੁ ਕਰਿ ਲੋਕਾਂ ਨੋ ਦਿਖਲਾਵਹਿ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਸੂਝੈ ॥ फड़ु करि लोकां नो दिखलावहि गिआनु धिआनु नही सूझै ॥ Faṛ kar lokāʼn no ḏikẖlāvahi gi▫ān ḏẖi▫ān nahī sūjẖai.
    They practice hypocrisy, and make a show before other people, but they do not understand anything about meditation or spiritual wisdom.

    ਨਾਨਕ ਅੰਧੇ ਸਿਉ ਕਿਆ ਕਹੀਐ ਕਹੈ ਨ ਕਹਿਆ ਬੂਝੈ ॥ नानक अंधे सिउ किआ कहीऐ कहै न कहिआ बूझै ॥ Nānak anḏẖe si▫o ki▫ā kahī▫ai kahai na kahi▫ā būjẖai.
    O Nanak, what can be said to the blind people? They cannot answer, or even understand what is said.

    ਅੰਧਾ ਸੋਇ ਜਿ ਅੰਧੁ ਕਮਾਵੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਰਿਦੈ ਸਿ ਲੋਚਨ ਨਾਹੀ ॥ अंधा सोइ जि अंधु कमावै तिसु रिदै सि लोचन नाही ॥ Anḏẖā so▫e jė anḏẖ kamāvai ṯis riḏai sė locẖan nāhī.
    They alone are blind, who act blindly. They have no eyes in their hearts.

    ਮਾਤ ਪਿਤਾ ਕੀ ਰਕਤੁ ਨਿਪੰਨੇ ਮਛੀ ਮਾਸੁ ਨ ਖਾਂਹੀ ॥ मात पिता की रकतु निपंने मछी मासु न खांही ॥ Māṯ piṯā kī rakaṯ nipanne macẖẖī mās na kẖāʼnhī.
    They are produced from the blood of their mothers and fathers, but they do not eat fish or meat.


    ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਪੁਰਖੈ ਜਾਂ ਨਿਸਿ ਮੇਲਾ ਓਥੈ ਮੰਧੁ ਕਮਾਹੀ ॥ इसत्री पुरखै जां निसि मेला ओथै मंधु कमाही ॥ Isṯarī purkẖai jāʼn nis melā othai manḏẖ kamāhī.
    But when men and women meet in the night, they come together in the flesh.

    ਮਾਸਹੁ ਨਿੰਮੇ ਮਾਸਹੁ ਜੰਮੇ ਹਮ ਮਾਸੈ ਕੇ ਭਾਂਡੇ ॥ मासहु निमे मासहु जमे हम मासै के भांडे ॥ Māsahu nimme māsahu jamme ham māsai ke bẖāʼnde.
    In the flesh we are conceived, and in the flesh we are born; we are vessels of flesh.

    ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਕਛੁ ਸੂਝੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਚਤੁਰੁ ਕਹਾਵੈ ਪਾਂਡੇ ॥ गिआनु धिआनु कछु सूझै नाही चतुरु कहावै पांडे ॥ Gi▫ān ḏẖi▫ān kacẖẖ sūjẖai nāhī cẖaṯur kahāvai pāʼnde.
    You know nothing of spiritual wisdom and meditation, even though you call yourself clever, O religious scholar.

    ਬਾਹਰ ਕਾ ਮਾਸੁ ਮੰਦਾ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਘਰ ਕਾ ਮਾਸੁ ਚੰਗੇਰਾ ॥ बाहर का मासु मंदा सुआमी घर का मासु चंगेरा ॥ Bāhar kā mās manḏā su▫āmī gẖar kā mās cẖangerā.
    O master, you believe that flesh on the outside is bad, but the flesh of those in your own home is good.

    ਜੀਅ ਜੰਤ ਸਭਿ ਮਾਸਹੁ ਹੋਏ ਜੀਇ ਲਇਆ ਵਾਸੇਰਾ ॥ जीअ जंत सभि मासहु होए जीइ लइआ वासेरा ॥ Jī▫a janṯ sabẖ māsahu ho▫e jī▫e la▫i▫ā vāserā.
    All beings and creatures are flesh; the soul has taken up its home in the flesh.

    ਅਭਖੁ ਭਖਹਿ ਭਖੁ ਤਜਿ ਛੋਡਹਿ ਅੰਧੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਜਿਨ ਕੇਰਾ ॥ अभखु भखहि भखु तजि छोडहि अंधु गुरू जिन केरा ॥ Abẖakẖ bẖakẖėh bẖakẖ ṯaj cẖẖodėh anḏẖ gurū jin kerā.
    They eat the uneatable; they reject and abandon what they could eat. They have a teacher who is blind.

    ਮਾਸਹੁ ਨਿੰਮੇ ਮਾਸਹੁ ਜੰਮੇ ਹਮ ਮਾਸੈ ਕੇ ਭਾਂਡੇ ॥ मासहु निमे मासहु जमे हम मासै के भांडे ॥ Māsahu nimme māsahu jamme ham māsai ke bẖāʼnde.
    In the flesh we are conceived, and in the flesh we are born; we are vessels of flesh.

    ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਕਛੁ ਸੂਝੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਚਤੁਰੁ ਕਹਾਵੈ ਪਾਂਡੇ ॥ गिआनु धिआनु कछु सूझै नाही चतुरु कहावै पांडे ॥ Gi▫ān ḏẖi▫ān kacẖẖ sūjẖai nāhī cẖaṯur kahāvai pāʼnde.
    You know nothing of spiritual wisdom and meditation, even though you call yourself clever, O religious scholar.

    ਮਾਸੁ ਪੁਰਾਣੀ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਤੇਬੀ ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗਿ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਮਾਣਾ ॥ मासु पुराणी मासु कतेबीं चहु जुगि मासु कमाणा ॥ Mās purāṇī mās ketābīʼn cẖahu jug mās kamāṇā.
    Meat is allowed in the Puraanas, meat is allowed in the Bible and the Koran. Throughout the four ages, meat has been used.

    ਜਜਿ ਕਾਜਿ ਵੀਆਹਿ ਸੁਹਾਵੈ ਓਥੈ ਮਾਸੁ ਸਮਾਣਾ ॥ जजि काजि वीआहि सुहावै ओथै मासु समाणा ॥ Jaj kāj vī▫āhi suhāvai othai mās samāṇā. It is featured in sacred feasts and marriage festivities; meat is used in them.

    ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਪੁਰਖ ਨਿਪਜਹਿ ਮਾਸਹੁ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹ ਸੁਲਤਾਨਾਂ ॥ इसत्री पुरख निपजहि मासहु पातिसाह सुलतानां ॥ Isṯarī purakẖ nipjahi māsahu pāṯisāh sulṯānāʼn.
    Women, men, kings and emperors originate from meat.

    ਜੇ ਓਇ ਦਿਸਹਿ ਨਰਕਿ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਤਾਂ ਉਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਕਾ ਦਾਨੁ ਨ ਲੈਣਾ ॥ जे ओइ दिसहि नरकि जांदे तां उन्ह का दानु न लैणा ॥ Je o▫e ḏisėh narak jāʼnḏe ṯāʼn unĥ kā ḏān na laiṇā.
    If you see them going to hell, then do not accept charitable gifts from them.

    ਦੇਂਦਾ ਨਰਕਿ ਸੁਰਗਿ ਲੈਦੇ ਦੇਖਹੁ ਏਹੁ ਧਿਙਾਣਾ ॥ देंदा नरकि सुरगि लैदे देखहु एहु धिङाणा ॥ Ḏeʼnḏā narak surag laiḏe ḏekẖhu ehu ḏẖińāṇā. The giver goes to hell, while the receiver goes to heaven - look at this injustice.

    ਆਪਿ ਨ ਬੂਝੈ ਲੋਕ ਬੁਝਾਏ ਪਾਂਡੇ ਖਰਾ ਸਿਆਣਾ ॥ आपि न बूझै लोक बुझाए पांडे खरा सिआणा ॥ Āp na būjẖai lok bujẖā▫e pāʼnde kẖarā si▫āṇā.
    You do not understand your own self, but you preach to other people. O Pandit, you are very wise indeed.

    ਪਾਂਡੇ ਤੂ ਜਾਣੈ ਹੀ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਿਥਹੁ ਮਾਸੁ ਉਪੰਨਾ ॥ पांडे तू जाणै ही नाही किथहु मासु उपंना ॥ Pāʼnde ṯū jāṇai hī nāhī kithhu mās upannā. O Pandit, you do not know where meat originated.

    ਤੋਇਅਹੁ ਅੰਨੁ ਕਮਾਦੁ ਕਪਾਹਾਂ ਤੋਇਅਹੁ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣੁ ਗੰਨਾ ॥ तोइअहु अंनु कमादु कपाहां तोइअहु त्रिभवणु गंना ॥ Ŧo▫i▫ahu ann kamāḏ kapāhāʼn ṯo▫i▫ahu ṯaribẖavaṇ gannā.
    Corn, sugar cane and cotton are produced from water. The three worlds came from water.

    ਤੋਆ ਆਖੈ ਹਉ ਬਹੁ ਬਿਧਿ ਹਛਾ ਤੋਐ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਬਿਕਾਰਾ ॥ तोआ आखै हउ बहु बिधि हछा तोऐ बहुतु बिकारा ॥ Ŧo▫ā ākẖai ha▫o baho biḏẖ hacẖẖā ṯoai bahuṯ bikārā.
    Water says, "I am good in many ways." But water takes many forms.

    ਏਤੇ ਰਸ ਛੋਡਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਸੰਨਿਆਸੀ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਕਹੈ ਵਿਚਾਰਾ ॥੨॥ एते रस छोडि होवै संनिआसी नानकु कहै विचारा ॥२॥ Ėṯe ras cẖẖod hovai sani▫āsī Nānak kahai vicẖārā. ||2||
    Forsaking these delicacies, one becomes a true Sannyaasee, a detached hermit. Nanak reflects and speaks. ||2||

    essence? to me? those that make a big song and dance about the eating of animals will happily ignore the suffering of human beings, mock the suffering of human beings, what spiritual wisdom actually comes from this?

    I would be interested in your interpretation of this Shabad Canadaji
     
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  9. Canada

    Canada
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    I'm not discriminating. There's just no reason to talk about it.
    Why do you care who someone loves or marries? Why do you care if someone feels like the opposite gender than they were born as?

    I think you all fail to understand my comment. It is not about "me" not caring. You bring up all these issues of other people, in history or at the present time, who are discriminating against these people and turn it against me saying "You don't care that they're being treated this way!!" ... No.

    Again, if people (not me, everyone) just stop talking about it, there's no problem. If you see no difference between the man who is white and the man who is black, then there is no difference and there is nothing to say.
    Truly it is the only equality that exists, to treat everyone fairly with love and respect - rather than label them "black, gay, transqueer, lesbian" or whatever it may be.

    This world is impermanent, and yes.. I still think it is a complete waste of time to argue about who mates or couples up with who; what people do with their bodies; what color people are; or what religion they follow.

    Clearly "just not talking about it" isn't going to solve the issue. I understand, trust me.. I understand too well. But the problem is not in my solution, the problem is that there are people who care about these things in the first place - the homophobes, racists and oppressors who for some reason insist on talking about these things as if they make the slightest difference at all in anything.

    Clearly I am utopian, and my vision of having everyone do this is unrealistic. But I really do believe it's the only solution in the long term. As long as people insist on labeling themselves, there will always be separations among people.
    This is the downside to communication and language.

    I just choose not to take part. First of all, I simply have the same emotion for LGBT, Foreigners, whatever they may be.. as I have for everyone else.

    So this is why I say it's a waste of time. Without the language and corresponding symbolic structures to interpret these differences, there are no differences. Especially since so many of these issues, in LGBT especially, are entirely subjective; what makes anyone think we can understand anyone else's sexuality or orientation?

    Anyway, I just wanted to make it clear that I have no issues with the LGBT community or anyone else for that matter. I just think the approach taken by different groups is counter-intuitive and won't get them the results they want.
     
  10. Canada

    Canada
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    You know nothing about me; your posts are extremely obnoxious, and I'm not going to bother replying to anything you post again.

    Read my comment before this one. I do not ignore their suffering. I am well aware of it; but I only see one solution. You can convince yourself that the world is becoming more accepting of these things - but people simply hide their racism and homophobia in their heads now. The only way to exterminate these hateful practices is to stop talking about them. What this means is; stop raising racist and homophobic children, stop using the word "gay", stop associating certain traits with people based on anything whatsoever (including veganism, cough cough).

    Attachment to these problems by those who are not even involved will only prolong them. However, since there are people who insist on being anti-LGBT, then yes, obviously as Sikhs we should be helping that community defend itself.

    But again, the solution remains the same.. Stop distinguishing people based on this and that. It's simply a utopian and probably impossible solution.. perhaps when the Khalsa rules.

    p.s: I spoke to the Granthi of my Gurdwara, as well as a very well educated Sikh from Punjab about this shabad you love to quote all the time. It is taken out of context and even mistranslated in some cases. I know for a fact that you don't read Gurmukhi, since you refer to going to Gurdwara as "listening to gibberish".. so I will assume your knowledge is second hand, much like mine. However, eating meat just doesn't make sense with the rest of Sikhi, so as per the advice of every Sikh I talk to in real life: I will ignore this topic online.
     
  11. Sherdil

    Sherdil
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    Like you stated in your post, I believe this concept to be highly utopian. I think civilization has progressed faster than the human mind has been able to evolve. Subconsciously, we are still tribal creatures that tend to divide ourselves into distinct groups. Talking about these things is the only way to elevate ourselves above our tribal mentality. In the absence of discussion, our basic instinct to judge based on physical appearance or sexual preference takes over.

    Case in point: After 9/11, the knee-jerk reaction of the American public was to villify Sikh-Americans based on their appearance. They considered us to be a tribe that should be feared and hated. For over a decade we suffered prejudice, until the shooting in the Wisconsin Gurdwara. That was the first time Americans had a national discussion about who Sikhs are and what we believe in. Since that shooting, I have noticed a night and day difference in how I am perceived and treated by the public. This change has only come about because Americans were finally ready to talk about this issue. Now Sikh Americans have taken it upon themselves to actively reach out to the public and educate them on who we are. I see LGBT people doing the same thing. We have all realized that people fear what they don't understand. It is our duty to have this discussion and educate them so that we may move closer to utopia.
     
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  12. Canada

    Canada
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    But I would much rather prefer to be utopian than some sort of Freudian/Darwinian reductionist!
    I'm not going to engage in pseudo-psychological discussion about the 'subconscious' and 'tribal mentality'..

    We may as well justify killing millions of people and eating meat with the same rationale.
     
  13. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Canada ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    I am a bit puzzled by what you are saying, so please bear with me. I have joined 2 of your posts together, the latter one to Harry ji so all of us can have an open and honest interaction.
    Your write:

    Why would you not like to talk about what you are not discriminating about?

    Would you like to keep silent and would you also urge others to do the same if injustice was done to you?

    It seems, it is rather you who is doing that. No one else.

    If you have nothing to say, why do you want to silence others who have a lot to say? I fail to understand your agenda behind it. Would you be kind enough to explain it please?

    Pardon my ignorance but I have no idea what you mean by the above. Please explain with concrete examples if you do not mind.

    I respect your viewpoint whatever its basis may be but please allow the courtesy to have others their say. Why do you want to silence others’ opinions while expressing yours openly?

    Many people who are not in your above list do, the fact you ignore and push it under the rug for the reasons only known to you.

    As they say,” Try not to push the things under the rug. It may become a mound which will make the one, the maker trip on it”.

    You just labeled yourself. Please allow the same courtesy to others.

    That is your choice. Let others have theirs’.

    It may be a waste of time for you but an important topic for others who may know people going through all the pains because of some people who refuse to have a conversation about it in the open.

    You are also are trying to ignore the stark realities of the world. Please check the latest bill passed against LGBT in Uganda. The culprits behind this bill were the right wing American Christians. People are murdered, physically abused and hurt everyday all around the world because they were born with a different sexual orientation. Also check the Muslim countries’ claim that there are no gays in their world.

    Yes, you do. You just do not want to talk about it and sweep it all under the rug.

    Who is this world made of? People like you and me, and we have totally different views about the subject which is fine with me.

    Please explain what you mean by the above with examples if you do not mind.

    That is you opinion which I respect and please respect mine and what do you mean by,"perhaps when the Khalsa rules"? Please define Khalsa as based on Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji our only Guru.

    You are blaming Harry for the same that you claim about yourself. Your knowledge is second hand as well. How do you know the Granthi- a custodian- because there is no clergy in Sikhi, knows the right meaning of the Shabad? The pot calling the kettle black, it seems.

    Please share your own understanding of the Shabad with us. And lastly, according to Gurbani, eating meat or not is a personal choice. Nothing more. Lots of people make a big deal about it where there is none.

    Thanks & regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  14. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    I read Gurmukhi just fine, I have some problem understanding it, but I am getting better, I have made this effort because I am not prepared to go to anywhere where the SGGS is being read and not be able to make anything at all out. Those that go to Gurdwara, for the sole purpose of listening to words that make no sense, in order to satisfy themselves that they are Sikh, might as well be listening to gibberish.

    No my knowledge is not second hand, its from a combination of living a full life, reading and translating SGGS, using the litmus test that we all have in our brains, and seeing the very essence of Sikhism as pure, rather than combining it with other religions and making my own.

    I do not talk to other Sikhs in real life, if, however, you wish to base your understanding on this, that is up to you, if you wish not to debate with me, that is also up to you, I leave you in the very fair hands of dear Tejwantji, who has asked some good questions, the answers of which, I eagerly look forward to. Good Luck on your journey! I am sure we will debate again
     
  15. Abneet

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    In my own opinion, Sikhs should be treating gays equally with no discrimination. I see LGBT doing a good job spreading awareness and trying to make families accept for who their kids are whether bi,gay, or lesiban. But gays should not be able to do anand karaj ceremony in a gurdwara. Guru ji mentioned a man and a woman and we can't change their teachings to suit ourselves. But this doesn't mean they shouldn't be looked down upon in our Panth.
     
  16. Sherdil

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    I used to hold your views, but now I am not so sure. Gurbani teaches that the body is merely the kapra (cloth) that the soul wears. The soul itself is without gender, just as Akaal is without gender. Therefore, gender is merely an illusion.

    Page 878, GGS

     
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  17. Abneet

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    I see your point of view but even in every religions marriage is always between a Man and Woman. We can see how Christians and Muslims treat gays unequally till this day with anti-gay law and such. Sikhs can take that step of equality and treat gays and bis without discrimination. Too bad Sikhs right now are intolerant over castes and other things in our community. But whatsoever I think new generation are progressing to be more tolerant and acceptable from those who are different than us .Now I don't see how it can change unless everyone wants to change the definition of marriage. Guru ji does mention wife/husband bond but never husband/husband or wife/wife married couples. Unless someone can pull something out of the GGS. GGS doesn't go in depth talking about it but we have a sense what it is according to gurmat teachings.
     
  18. aristotle

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    Sarbat Khalsa can vote to allow gay marriage. That was precisely the point of having a Sarbat Khalsa, of having the Panth in sync with the changing World.
     
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  19. Sherdil

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    Whether someone is considered a husband or a wife is not dependent on physical gender. In gurbani, the divine is personified as the "Husband-Lord" (even though He is without gender) and we are all his "Soul-Brides" (regardless of our physical gender).

    So technically speaking, when a man marries a woman, it is two soul-brides that are marrying each other. The same is true when a man marries a man, or a woman marries a woman.

    This is how guru ji defines a husband and wife:

    Page 788, GGS:

    No reference is made to their physical gender. The only thing that matters is that they are spiritually one. Two men can share the same light, just as two women can.
     
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  20. Abneet

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    I see your views and I'll respect it but I can't change on what Sikh already agree on. Maybe in the future it might all change even in all religions who knows. But the other question is would they have to live their whole life practicing chastity because pro-creation doesn't happen between a gay or lesbian couple and doing intercourse for the sake of it is completely wrong. That's another problem we have to look at.
     
  21. Abneet

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    Very true. In my last post I mentioned in the future all might change for the better but we are still stiff on the subject. We have to thoroughly discuss the subject and not only talk about the marriage part for gays and lesbians but the procreation part also. Guru Nanak would want us to accept everyone regardless of gender etc... We can definitely do that but there has to be boundaries or not. It's up to Sarbat Khalsa.
     
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