Welcome to SPN

Register and Join the most happening forum of Sikh community & intellectuals from around the world.

Sign Up Now!

Should One Always Tell The Truth?

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by Harry Haller, Sep 20, 2016.

  1. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
    Expand Collapse

    Moderator

    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2011
    Messages:
    5,118
    Likes Received:
    7,945
    Should one always tell the truth, always, first we need to find a concrete scenario that we can use, we can keep picking holes till we find the genesis scenario, the scenario where it makes no sense telling the truth
     
  2. Loading...


  3. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
    Expand Collapse

    Moderator

    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2011
    Messages:
    5,118
    Likes Received:
    7,945
    ok, you have just found out your 10 year old child has incurable terminal cancer, when you get home, your child runs to you and asks how the tests went, at that point what do you say?
     
  4. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
    Expand Collapse

    Moderator

    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2011
    Messages:
    5,118
    Likes Received:
    7,945
    no that doesn't work either because there will always be someone that would tell the truth, hmmm
     
  5. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
    Expand Collapse

    Moderator

    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2011
    Messages:
    5,118
    Likes Received:
    7,945
    Im stumped, I can think of plenty scenarios where I would not tell the truth, but then that is because I would have something to hide, or done something wrong, the argument is if you live a decent life and are honest, you have nothing to lie about, out of interest, did any of our Gurus find themselves being economical with the truth, maybe in battle, or by way of battle tactics, I would have thought not, but I would be interested in any sakhis.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
    Expand Collapse

    Moderator

    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2011
    Messages:
    5,118
    Likes Received:
    7,945
    Harkiranji

    Ok, this is my best shot, your on holiday in India, something akin to 1984 takes place, you end up with a dear friend in the boot, your driving away from the troubles, you get stopped by a Mob, they ask if you have seen any Sikhs or know where any are

    What do you answer?
     
  7. Sikhilove

    Sikhilove United Kingdom
    Expand Collapse
    Writer SPNer

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    183
    Likes Received:
    68
    Speaking lies - SikhiWiki, free Sikh encyclopedia.


    They see the Truth, and they speak the Truth; their bodies and minds are True.
    (SGGS p69)


    The One Lord is in his heart. True are his actions; true are his ways. True is his heart;
    Truth is what he speaks with his mouth. True is his vision; true is his form. He distributes Truth and he spreads Truth.

    One who recognizes the Supreme Lord God as True - O Nanak, that humble being is absorbed into the True One. (8,15)

    (SGGS p283)


    The true devotees look beautiful in the Darbaar of the Lord`s Court. They speak Truth, and only Truth.
    Deep within the nucleus of their heart, is the True Word of the Lord`s Bani. Through the Truth, they understand themselves.

    They understand themselves, and so know the True Lord, through their true intuition.

    True is the Shabad, and True is its Glory; peace comes only from Truth.

    Imbued with Truth, the devotees love the One Lord; they do not love any other.

    O Nanak, he alone obtains the True Lord, who has such pre-ordained destiny written upon his forehead. (4,2,3)

    (SGGS p769)


    In Truth I sit and stand; I eat and speak the Truth.
    With Truth in my consciousness, I gather the wealth of Truth, and drink in the sublime essence of Truth.

    In the home of Truth, the True Lord protects me; I speak the Words of the Guru`s Teachings with love. (5)

    (SGGS p1011)


    True is the speech of the Gurmukh; true are the eyes of the Gurmukh. The Gurmukh practices and lives the Truth.
    He speaks the Truth forever, day and night, and inspires others to speak the Truth.

    (SGGS p1058)
    True are the faces and true are the beards, of those who speak the Truth and live the Truth.
    The True Word of the Shabad abides in their minds; they are absorbed in the True Guru.

    True is their capital, and true is their wealth; they are blessed with the ultimate status.

    They hear the Truth, they believe in the Truth; they act and work in the Truth.

    They are given a place in the Court of the True Lord; they are absorbed in the True Lord.

    O Nanak, without the True Guru, the True Lord is not found. The self-willed manmukhs leave, wandering around lost. (53)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
    Expand Collapse

    Moderator

    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2011
    Messages:
    5,118
    Likes Received:
    7,945
    should this be taken literally, or is it an ideal to live by, whilst using common sense and wisdom?
     
  9. Original

    Original
    Expand Collapse
    Writer SPNer

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2011
    Messages:
    812
    Likes Received:
    488
    ..an interesting read would be from the Mahabharata where Lord Krishna introduces the quibble as a plot device to save the pandus from defeat. An elephant named "Ashwathama" was killed and not the warrior Ashwathama. This provided the Pandus with a perfect ploy to bring the battle to a halt because othertwise, they would've been demolished. Lord Krishna sided with economical truth to save both the spirit and the letter of the rules of engagement in masterminding this strategic move.....to favour Pandu win.

    Have a read.....scholars are for ever arguing given the status of Lord Krishna was God-incarnate.

    Goodnight
     
  10. Harkiran Kaur

    Harkiran Kaur Canada
    Expand Collapse

    Leader

    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2012
    Messages:
    1,171
    Likes Received:
    1,778
    You really want to mess with the Universe? Simply say this statement:

    "I always lie"

    If you always lie then that statement is true, which means you always lie. But if you always lie then that statement is a lie because you just told the truth... but you can't be LOL
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
  11. Inderjeet Kaur

    Inderjeet Kaur
    Expand Collapse
    Writer SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2011
    Messages:
    774
    Likes Received:
    1,712
    No to both questions.

    We all know these words. I would classify the saving of an innocent life as "truthful living."
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
    Expand Collapse

    Moderator

    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2011
    Messages:
    5,118
    Likes Received:
    7,945
    what is more important, the truth, or truthful living?
     
  13. Original

    Original
    Expand Collapse
    Writer SPNer

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2011
    Messages:
    812
    Likes Received:
    488
    Good morning Everyone,

    Philosophically speaking, what is truth would fall under the study of metaphysics and how ought humans to live, under ethics. A question worth considering would be, in my view, how might the two be reconciled or distilled for plausible explanations to justify their existence in the first place ?

    Take for example the character of Job in the 'Book of Job' [Bible]. We're told of all the good, great and the wonderful things Job did to conform and remain God fearing, but yet he gets punished ? Where is the justice in truthful living and obeying God, asks poor ol'Job ? The wicked flourish and the just suffer, is that the divine retribution to which I must accord and believe ?

    The book of Job reveals the defects of what I call "reality check". And, because of this, a different and more rationaly compatable theory had to be sought. Nanak did just that in Sikhism and his answer to Job was, "karmi appo apni" [reap n sow].

    Let me leave you to chew on a more practical scenario to keep the mind engaged with philosophy.

    Take 21st century Job. God fearing, law abiding and all the extras, fundamental of which is his belief that taking a life is "wrong" [murder] full stop. Consider the following -


    Job n his girl friend are on holiday in Syria and gets captured by Isis. They are both taken to a secret hideout where another 20 hostages are being held captive. On arrival Job is given a pistol with one bullet and told to kill one of the hostages so the remaining 19 could be set free. What must Job do ?

    More later - Ciao
     
    #12 Original, Sep 21, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2016
  14. chazSingh

    chazSingh Ireland
    Expand Collapse
    Writer SPNer

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2012
    Messages:
    1,509
    Likes Received:
    1,555
    i think this depends on Jobs state of mind and his experience with the 'truth' of life...

    for example if job i still "life is all there is, cling to life...save life...death is the end' kinda person...
    then saving 9 lives, losing one...would probably make sense..
    the majority survived...one didn't.....can bee seen a good...

    can also be seen as wrong...especially if one is dabbling with the truth of life...Gods Will...hukam...
    one must just do what they feel is right "follow the heart"....and accept the outcome...hukum...no matter what that is...in the khel of life...with the knowledge and experience that death is not the be all and end all..

    Teraa kee-aa meethaa laagai.
    O Waheguru! Your actions seem so sweet to me.
    Har naam padaarath naanak maaNgai.
    Nanak begs for the treasure of the Naam, the Name of the Lord.
    Guru Ji followed his heart and knew this event needed to be played out in the khel of life...no resistence to it, as it was Gods Will...

    question is how to follow ones heart...in my opinion a person can only act according to hukam\heart if their mind is free of clutter...the actions may not appear as truthful to the world...but it was what was ordained through the rule of sow\reap...

    very complex...brain hurts thinking about it....maybe its because i shouldn't be using my brain to understand it...
     
  15. Sikhilove

    Sikhilove United Kingdom
    Expand Collapse
    Writer SPNer

    Joined:
    May 12, 2016
    Messages:
    183
    Likes Received:
    68
    Taken literally, gyan should be applied 100%
     
  16. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
    Expand Collapse

    Moderator

    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2011
    Messages:
    5,118
    Likes Received:
    7,945
    agree enthusiastically, and then shoot the terrorist!
    --- Double Post Merged, Sep 21, 2016, Original Post Date: Sep 21, 2016 ---
    are you saying we should take the SGGS literally then? or use wisdom, logic and discretion?
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. Original

    Original
    Expand Collapse
    Writer SPNer

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2011
    Messages:
    812
    Likes Received:
    488
    ..taking the death toll to a record high - 22 ! WOW !! Waheguru is likely to transfer you over to the spiritualists camp for training the mind in rational thinking. Chaz managed to pull it off with just one dead !

    Goodnight
     
  18. Inderjeet Kaur

    Inderjeet Kaur
    Expand Collapse
    Writer SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2011
    Messages:
    774
    Likes Received:
    1,712
    Since no one has answered this, let me repeat what Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev ji said..
    It can't be any clearer than that, I think. Truthful living is even above Truth. Your scenario is a great example of that.

    .
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  19. Original

    Original
    Expand Collapse
    Writer SPNer

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2011
    Messages:
    812
    Likes Received:
    488
    Good evening Inderjeet Ji,

    I believe I did [#12], that is, they are two different aspects of the one concept -Truth !
    ..would you say knowledge of truth is a prerequisite to truthful living? And by your own admission, that saving lives is truthful living, what of a soldier who in the course his duty, take lives ?

    Goodnight
     
  20. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
    Expand Collapse

    Moderator

    Writer SPNer Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2011
    Messages:
    5,118
    Likes Received:
    7,945
    i could have caught him alone!
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  21. Inderjeet Kaur

    Inderjeet Kaur
    Expand Collapse
    Writer SPNer Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2011
    Messages:
    774
    Likes Received:
    1,712
    Let me answer your statement about my "admission." You are misunderstanding what I said. I said
    A soldier operates under a different ethos than a private citizen saving a friend's life. The soldier's morality is very difficult. I have trouble with Sikh soldiers participating the wars of aggression currently being waged by the USA. The military is all voluntary; no one is forced to enlist against their will. I think that subject would demand a new thread, so I'll leave it there.

    Would I say knowledge of the truth is a prerequisite for truthful living? The simple answer is yes. Truthful living is a conscious choice, often difficult, an easy way to rationalize doing wrong things. One needs a strong grasp on truth to live like truthfully. And please note: most often truth and truthful living engender the same actions. Rarely do they clash.

    The complicated answer is "how can I be sure what is truth"? This is a question asked since antiquity with no definitive answer. I believe in truth as taught by Gurus - all 11 of them - but belief is not fact and what if I'm wrong? Again, this is a huge topic that can't be answered in this thread. If you want to pursue this - personally, I don't - it belongs in a new topic or more likely continuing an old one.
     

Share This Page